Please stop telling me I should have biological children.

[lightningandsnow]

I've always been pretty open with the fact that while I want children when I'm older, but I want to adopt.

I have no desire for biological children. When I mention this to people, usually they say "You'll change your mind about that," or "Aren't you going to have at least one of your own? It's nice to have your own children."

First of all, I hate the assumption that children who are adopted are less one's own than biological children. A dear friend of mine was adopted, and her parents are amazing, loving people who have given her (and her brother, who is also adopted) a great life. There are so many children needing homes, and while there is, of course, nothing wrong with having biological children, adoption allows children who would spend most of their childhood in foster care or orphanages to have a permanent, loving family.

The other thing is that I could likely not have biological children without endangering my health or the health of my child. I have bipolar disorder and will likely be on medication for the rest of my life. My mood stabilizer is contraindicated in pregnancy; it carries a significant risk of birth defects. There is another mood stabilizer which is somewhat safer, but there is no guarantee that it would work, especially since I have a history of medication trials that have failed. Being off my meds could mean ending up dead or in a psych ward, and I don't think it's worth that.

It seems to be acceptable in our culture to judge, criticize, or otherwise meddle with women's choices regarding marriage, pregnancy, and family. No matter what someone's reasons are for not getting married, delaying having children, wanting to adopt, or not wanting to have children at all, I think we should step off.

[Deep13]

1. But, we're down to our last 7 billion people!

Seriously, you're absolutely right. I wish more prospective parents would adopt rather than making new ones. I mean, are we THAT attached to our specific genes?

[Lorien]

66. +1,0000

There are enough "miracles" on this planet already. If someone is that attached to their own genes then they don't want children, they want mini mes.

[Warren DeMontague]

201. Amazing.

An OP is posted saying "don't judge me for Personal Decision X"

and (surprise!) Reply #1 is chock full-o-judgment about Personal Decision Y

...and thunderous applause fills the peanut gallery.


:eyes:

[madmax]

2. You've thought this out and this is your decision

people who act like dolts and make such comments deserve either dead silence, or 'mind your own damn business'.

:hug:

[SidDithers]

3. Sorry...

I didn't realize I was telling you that you should have biological children.

Sid

[blueamy66]

62. What?

Why even bother to respond?

[newtothegame]

117. He's got a point; whomever the OP was addressing, they're not on DU.

And if they are, a PM would have been more appropriate.

[uncommon]

120. Republicans aren't on DU either but we still address them and their bs all the time.

[kestrel91316]

124. Oh, trust me, if you looked you could find a few DUers just like she describes.

But she is referring to societal attitudes in general, which I THOUGHT WE WERE FREE TO DISCUSS ON DU.

[MedicalAdmin]

151. I checked out Sid Dithers comments.

It seems he has a history of histrionics.

[mkultra]

113. .

.

[xchrom]

4. this adopted person says thank you! -- oh and try to get a gay one like me --

it'll REALLY make the teenage years interesting.

[Scuba]

5. OK

[hlthe2b]

6. Heavens, I should think you would have come up with

a "Brazillion" comebacks by now...;)

Overpopulation is no small price to pay for those kind of attitudes. Give it right back to them. (Oh and be sure and call out the crass rumor mongers who automatically assume the unmarried female is gay or if a few years older, "simply too big a bitch for any man (or woman) to want to marry"--you know who you are :eyes:)...

[pipi_k]

7. I honestly don't understand

why people think everyone has this crushing desire to procreate.

Like anyone who doesn't have biological children (or not even adopt them) is being selfish or something.


Then there are the people, like one of my younger sisters, whose potential children, biological or otherwise, escaped a dire fate because she was unable to have them. She only managed to fuck up the lives of a couple of innocent chihuahuas instead.

[ejpoeta]

8. good for you! i think it's bs to expect there is something wrong with a person

who doesn't want kids or wants to wait or to assume everyone must want to have their own kids. how many kids out there need a home! it shouldn't matter whether they are biologically yours.... doesn't make them any less your children. anyone can procreate.... anyone can be a sperm donor or egg donor.... parenting is a different animal altogether.

i remember when i was pregnant with my first child i had people, strangers, think it was ok to give me advice and even to touch my belly. for some reason everyone seems to think women are fair game for everything. it's ridiculous.

one thing i would think about... i don't know if your medical issues would affect your ability to adopt. i have often thought of that because i suffer from depression and am not sure if such things could hurt the opportunity to adopt. but good luck. i hope it goes well for you and no matter what you do there will be people who will criticize. be a working mom, a stay at home mom, have kids don't have kids..... no matter what you do someone will complain. screw them. they don't matter.

[LibertyLover]

9. As the mom of an 8 year old daughter who is adopted

I say good on you for wanting to adopt. While I have never had biological children, by husband did in his first marriage and he has told me that there is no difference in the way he loves our little girl and the way he felt about this blood children. I'm thankful and grateful to be able to be a mom via adoption.

[madmom]

10. My daughter is of the same opinion. She told me a very long time ago that she

did NOT want to have children and if she ever decided she did want them, she would adopt. She was sort of confused by my acceptance of her decision and asked if I didn't want to be a grandmother. I told her that was NOT my decision to make but hers, and I respected her choice for her life.

[stuntcat]

22. like my Mom!

I'm an only child and my Mom is totally cool with me not making grandchildren.

[madmom]

26. Good for your mom....

I looked at your profile, it must be something in the books, my daughter is totally into the same things, gardening (not as much as the others) but so totally into cats, reading and art. LOL

[BanzaiBonnie]

25. I she adopts, you WILL be a grandmother!

HA! We love no matter how they come into our lives.

[madmom]

27. That is exactly my take on it too. :^)

[bahrbearian]

11. Your just being selfish.

:sarcasm:

[HughBeaumont]

12. Rec'd.

I ended the usual comments from the people in your second sentence with a scalpel in 2007. I have one stepson. That will be all.

Yeah, no thanks on the whole "working until they stick me in my grave" thing, which is exactly what would be happening if I had multiple kids that there would be no way I could afford. Those kinds of people are all emotional with their thinking and are completely missing the big picture, particularly relating to finance.

Just because someone can have kids doesn't necessarily mean they're expected to.

[Skidmore]

13. So, who's asking you to?

It is your choice, just as it is someone else's CHOICE to have children without being belittled for that decision.

[uncommon]

14. No matter what the reasons, a woman's choice should be accepted WITHOUT QUESTION.

Maybe in another several thousand years of human evolution society will get this through their 7 mm skulls.

[TlalocW]

15. Well, if you have children, the biological ones are the way to go

The non-biological ones just sit there... like pet rocks.

Oh, you mean bearing children yourself! Never mind. :)

I'm "one step" further than you as I'm childfree in that I neither have nor want children - adopted or not, and I can tell you, the harping will never stop. And I say that as a childfree male. For women, it will always be worse because, "Every woman wants to give birth! It's the most natural thing in the world!" But stick to your guns and ignore the masses. I often think the reason the people who harp the most (which isn't ever be-childed person) are so adamant about convincing CF'ers to have children is that they want everyone to be as miserable as they are.

TlalocW

[Deep13]

33. LOL, nt

[Pool Hall Ace]

38. Childfree female who has heard that routine, right here.

You'll change your miiiind . . . It's diffrunt when it's your owwwwnnn . . . How can you be so selfishhhh???

A tubal ligation ("slash & burn") plus my age has quieted that talk.

[REP]

47. Yeah, but you can have it reversed...

:evilgrin:

:hi: PoolHallAce! Hope things are going better!

Knew I didn't want them when I was 9. Two sterilizations (tubal ligation and endometrial ablation) and 36 years later, haven't changed my mind or regretted it for an instant.

[Pool Hall Ace]

53. Hi REP! :D

I don't know about a reversal, but I'm sure I could have some of my ancient eggs extracted, dusted off, fertilized, and implanted into my rusty womb. Who cares about the risk to my health and the fetuses, the likelihood of failure, plus the expense? It would be soooo wooooorth it!! :rofl:

[Hissyspit]

79. "How can you be so selfish?" I know! What the fuck does that even mean?

Selfish to someone who doesn't exist??

Just bizarre logic.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

155. I had a short time, looong ago, of wanting to have a kid

I was surrounded by other child-bearing age women at work getting pregnant, being the talk of the department, getting all kinds of attention all the time.

I had never been interested in babies or children, but for a few years back then, I wanted to be part of the club! I wanted to be 'special' too; special and romantic just like every other pregnant lady.

That's a very shallow reason to create another person, and shows no awareness of the reality of responsible child rearing. For 20 or more years.

I am grateful every day that my desire was not fulfilled!

(and I wonder, how many women ALSO have such shallow motivations, which ARE fulfilled?)

[stuntcat]

16. wish someone would tell this to my mother-in-law

I'd kill myself before I gave my baby the rest of this century OR made the 7 billionth human. MY family is totally on my side but they're all many hours away. The mother-in-law lives 3 miles away :puke: EVERY time I'm with her she talks and talks about babies and kids. When we see them in public she gets all stupid over them and I just stiffen up and wait til it's passed. I have a secret from her though, she doesn't know I got the Essure operation so there's no question anymore of me making her grandkids, the poor old selfish thing.
I might want to adopt someday, if I can talk my husband into it.

The pressure on women is really too much, it makes me sick. It is the reason I stay away from most people.

[Hello_Kitty]

20. + Eleventybillion eom

[drmeow]

48. A devious manipulative

me just had this thought - next time she goes on and on about kids get really upset and angry and tell her to stop trying to make you feel guilty for your inability to have kids. She doesn't know that the inability is voluntary - make her think it is involuntary and make her feel guilty about bringing it up around you. That should make her squirm.

Just kidding ... sorta ... - besides, then she might put pressure on you to adopt ... which is fine if you want to but only slightly less bad if you don't.

My mother (who finally has 3 grandsons and 1 granddaughter) has FINALLY (now that I'm 46) laid off giving me a hard time about not wanting to have kids.

[stuntcat]

51. "now that.."

now that you're 46.. now that you've gone through decades of this expectation.
If it's anything like my people, the suggestions can be so subtle, it's just gross, I don't even want to be around them.

But I guess we shouldn't blame people for playing the game, being good Humans, I just wish I had the patience for their crap. I'm 40 now, and hope it gets easier the next few years.

[drmeow]

54. It helps that

1) my sister had premature ovarian failure and had to get an egg donor for hers and
2) I've already started menopause

Little hard for my mother to whine about me having kids when the parts don't work that way anymore :)

When people would try to tell me "it'll be different with your own kids" (which was a common response I would get) my response was - "a child is not an experiment - I'm not going to have one on the off chance that I don't know my own mind" ... it actually shut people up pretty quickly. A good response to "why don't you want to have kids" is "why SHOULD I want to have kids" or "why do you WANT to have kids" or even simply "Cause I don't." The subtle remarks are harder. Memorize lots of bad statistics about kids so when someone says, "look at those adorable kids" you can wait a few seconds and say something like 'I read that is costs XXX hundred thousand dollars to raise a child these days' or 'Did you know that X% of parents outlive their children' or 'It's so sad that elder abuse by offspring caretakers has reached such epic proportions.'

Hang in there. It really is hard not to get defensive when the default in our society is that we're the one's who are wrong. It will get easier the next few years - although you might start getting the "biological clock" BS and the subtle "she never had kids" pity. I'm blessed in that, other than my mother, most people have been very supportive. I am surrounded by a decent number of childfree-by-choice individuals (there are more of us in academia than elsewhere) which also helps. On the other hand, I'm in Mormon country (but since I avoid most of them like the plague it's not a problem).

[MedicalAdmin]

152. My wife uses this on people.

She looks at them, quivers her lower lip, looks slowly down and then up, and says "we've been trying for years." And then she is dead silent and just stares at them.


They NEVER ask again.

[urbanasaurus]

156. That's a good

way to deal with it.

[seabeyond]

159. ya, cause i am sure the women who want but cant have will thiink it cute that yawl giggle about this

behind peoples backs.

talk about being insensitive to those that cant have children.

[CBR]

162. +1000... joking about infertility is really low nt

[drmeow]

172. How is this giggling

about other people's infertility? How is is making a joke about someone else's infertility? How is this making fun of people who can't have children?

Yes, it is manipulating (lying to) someone who is asking an inappropriate question (and, believe me, people who can't have kids DON'T go around asking other people why they don't have kids) to make them feel guilty for asking about something which is none of their business and shutting them up for good.

My sister can't have children - she got an egg donor (I would have donated my eggs since I don't plan to use them but I was already too old). Given how much she hated people asking her why she didn't have kids or when was she going to have kids, she would totally support something which would make those insensitive people think twice about asking that question of someone else. She wouldn't consider it making fun of people who can't have kids but putting people who ask inappropriate and potentially hurtful questions in their place.

[seabeyond]

173. are you telling me you and your wife dont do a little chucklin after her magnificent performance

of manipulation?

[REP]

176. I'm clutching my pearls just thinking that they might laugh at rude questioners!11

How DARE they laugh at someone who would pry into their most personal business? Oh the HORROR.

Get a fucking grip.

[seabeyond]

178. i am thinking more being insensitive to a woman that might feel hurt. but if you need those pearls

go at it.

[REP]

186. You're not thinking; you're looking for a fight

When someone asks, "Why don't you have children," they're not entitled to a 'sensitive' answer. If an infertile woman overhears the exchange by chance, she has no way of knowing whether the interrogated woman is shading the truth (a sterilized woman can't become pregnant, you know).

[seabeyond]

189. ah... we can use manipulation at anothers expense as long as they dont hear us do it.

a person choses to not have children. there is no pain in that decision. yet, pull on a person pain in order to shut someone up.

just tell them to mind their own business.

but this is a stupid fuckin game about anothers real pain.

i think it is more insenstitive than someone who is perfectly comfortable not wanting children being asked why not... because, i dont want fukin children.

not a tough one.

it isnt funny, or cutsy.... to me

[drmeow]

177. FIrst - it wasn't me

Second - if it had been me the answer would be NO. It would be more likely that we would have bitched about the inappropriateness of the question and commented about how they won't be asking that question of anyone else any time soon. If any giggling were done it would not have been over the performance - it would have been over the pleasure of making some insensitive clod squirm over their extremely personal, extremely inappropriate question.

Rather than a way of ridiculing infertility, this would be a way of dramatically reminding someone of how hurtful these kinds of invasive questions are.

[seabeyond]

180. and when the response is, i am so sorry, i too cant and it hurts the heart....

then do we applaud.

the post is as tacky as someone lecturing someone that they must have a child. or another poster demanding that people that have children are committing child abuse.

[drmeow]

181. NOONE who can't have a child

is going to ever ask someone else why haven't they had children or when are they going to have children so the response will NEVER be "I too can't."

People who can't have children are too sensitive to the hurtfulness of the question, even if they have come to accept their own infertility, to EVER take the risk of putting someone else in such a painful position. They know better. It is only people who have children or who eventually want children but do not yet know that they can't have children who ask those questions.

While your compassion for people who can't have children does you credit, your understanding of basic psychology is fundamentally flawed.

[seabeyond]

183. it seems the simple question.... do you have children... is highly insensitive

thought it is a norm in interaction.

[REP]

187. The question was "WHY don't you have children"

Reading is fundamental.

[seabeyond]

190. i read the whole subthread and didnt see why.... all i saw was a MIL talking about kids. nt

[seabeyond]

191. i was saying, merely asking "do you have children" seems to be the height of rudeness

you would have to read the op i was responding to.

[Withywindle]

192. "Why don't you have children?" or "When are you going to have children?"

IS an insensitive question, or at the least a highly intrusive and nosy one. ("You have a husband? Doesn't he shoot his sperm into your vagina on a regular enough basis? Why is there no fetus yet?")

I don't think the wobbly-lipped performance of, "I can't" is inherently disrespectful to women to want to conceive but can't. If anything, it might possibly shame the Nosy Nellies into laying off that question for good--which hopefully might spare an unhappily unfertile woman the pain of having to give that same answer for real.

People who feel it's OK to grill casual acquaintances or co-workers or remote family members on the status and usage of their reproductive organs are NOT entitled to a polite or honest response, any more than religious pushers banging on your door at 7 AM do.

[seabeyond]

194. or it could simply be.... you dont want children? cool. but nooooo

gotta be a HUGE deal.

as i said. i didnt get married until 32. never had someone tell me i needed to have kids. anyone want to know why i wasnt married... pretty easy

dont wanna be.

see

and no anger

no outrage

no big deal

boo boo lip and pretend you cant have kids to guilt someone...

nasty

i have a brother that has never been married. 3 cousins in one family, two cousins in another family and two cousins in another family... not a big deal in our house. one had four girls, one got married and had ONE child... they are all around 50. two great aunts never married. an uncle didnt marry until in his 40's.

it has simply been choice, for all of us. but none of us needed to boo boo lip to shame anyone.

[Withywindle]

197. Just because it never happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen to others.

And when it does, I am fine with shutting it down by any means necessary. It's just rude.

[DFW]

17. Who in the world is telling you that?

My brother in law, a wonderful guy, is adopted, so I'm not neutral on the subject (full disclosure).

[uncommon]

24. Have you never seen a woman be lectured about this? Or a man for that matter?

It's very, VERY common.

[seabeyond]

30. i really feel as if i must be in bizzaro world. i was 32 before married. not even a serious bf ever

i NEVER had anyone lectures, directing, insisting, demanding... i cannot remember in that time ever getting pissed off with someone butting into my business. i hear people talking about it. kinda like the out of control kids in restaurants and cell phone users irritating people. i dont and didnt experience this. at all. ever.

i cannot believe i live and lived in such a different world than some. where all they do is come up against the ugly, nasty, noisy, rude people of the world and i dont experience them.

i dont get it.

[uncommon]

36. I want that life lol. As soon as I had one child, it was "when's the next one?" and

nearly every woman I know who is anywhere close to 30 is being asked by family and friends when she is having kids.

[raccoon]

98. Gosh, you must be in bizarro world. One good thing about getting older is people don't ask me

anymore who am I dating, or am I seeing anybody. They haven't for several decades now. :-)

[seabeyond]

101. conversation. are you dating? this isnt people telling you want you need to do

much of this stuff, that people are saying people telling you what to do, is just conversation.

[raccoon]

103. If they're good friends, OK. If they're casual acquaintances, it's none of their business. nt

[seabeyond]

106. then tell them it is none of their business. asking someone in conversation

dating anyone? is not telling someone how to live and choices made.

i discuss all kinds of things, with all kinds of people as conversation comes up. i find people really really interesting. i like to understand and experience and learn. individual uniqueness allows me to explore all types of behavior that i would be clueless about, because i never experience that.... i am different.

surely

questions dont hurt.

[DFW]

34. No, never

Maybe I just travel in the wrong circles? I have never heard anyone told that.

[uncommon]

37. Sounds like you travel in the right circles lol.

I have heard this more times than I can count.

[DFW]

39. I guess

I wasn't exaggerating, though, I promise, and I was born and bred in the South (though grew up close to DC
a lot of the time).

For the past 30 years, I have been stationed in western Europe, and am married to a German. Maybe that has
something to do with it, although neither in Virginia or Dallas have I ever heard anything of the sort.

Maybe the right circles at that!! This is really new to me. I had no idea that mentality was so prevalent.

[Lorien]

67. Pretty much every child free woman I know has been told that

so has every family I know who has adopted. Unless your "circles" have always been in a rest home I find that hard to believe.

[DFW]

73. I know no child-free woman that has been told that

And that includes women from Helen Thomas to my sister. Neither is ready for a rest home.
Sorry for your disbelief and your bitterness, but I travel the world for my work, have
been doing so for over thirty years, speak nine languages, and no woman I know has ever
told me this, including my brother-in-law's very conservative Wisconsin foster mom. I
have no idea where you live or who you hang with, but if you think I hang in rest homes,
you have no idea where I live or who I hang with, either.

[blueamy66]

89. Well, I'm 44 years old....

live in PHX, AZ, and hear about "having a baby" twice a week from co-workers.

NO, I DON'T WANT A LITTLE DARLING. I LOVE MY CHILD-FREE LIFE!!!

A NEEDY, SCREAMING LITTLE THING WON'T COMPLETE ME!!

I DON'T CARE IF YOU'LL "BABY SIT".

Geez.....kids ain't all that. My life is fine as it is. I sleep in, I garden, I read the paper for 3 hours on Sunday morning....I do what I want and don't have to be responsible for anyone but me.

Sorry for the rant, but I love my nieces/nephews/great nieces/great nephews....but I don't want them to live with me!!!!

All this from an adopted kid....from the 60s.....

[DFW]

91. No need to apologize

I have only been to Arizona a few times, spent the night exactly once in 1973, so I can't pretend
to know what it is like there. I grew up in northern Virginia, moved to Dallas in 1982, but have
been stationed overseas since 1979 for most of the time. Dallas has a large liberal community, and
even a few of the radical rightists I know are single women who feel exactly as you do on the subject.
As for Germany and the surrounding NATO-land, I have never met one person, male or female, who touted
the point of view that biological babies were the only way to go.

As for us, our two daughters are biological, are now 25 and 27, and have so far expressed no pressing
need to have children until they are good and ready--a stance we support wholeheartedly.

I have a feeling my wife and I might not have lasted very long in Arizona. As it is, looking at retirement
15 or 20 years down the road, I have raised the subject of moving back to America permanently, and my
European wife has told me I was free to go, and she'd visit me for 3 weeks during the summer and a week at
New Year's.

[blueamy66]

107. Don't move here!

I'm just joking. But the summers are hell! It's the end of September and it's stilll going to hit 100 degrees F.

The Fall, Winter and Spring are awesome, but the Summer sucks the life outta ya. The scenery, the night life, the cuisine and the action are great here, but the Summer is a bitch!!!


:-)

[DFW]

207. I'm not sure what is better

Here in the Rheinland, it's below 20° (68°F) today, although it's beautiful out. The nightlife
in Düsseldorf is pretty cool too, although my day job kinda sucks the energy out of you. Don't
do 3 countries a day for a week unless you REALLY like your job.

But I grew up in the south, and so 100°F is not so bad for me.

[MedicalAdmin]

153. How about this as a response?

Q: Don't you want a baby?



A: Why? Are you selling yours?

[EFerrari]

78. Me, too. The young men in our family were told to get married

and the young women were told to get pregnant. It was 1950 around here clear into the mid 80s. :)

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

18. They're a lot cuter than mechanical children

(silly joke. sorry)

[Art_from_Ark]

72. Oh, I don't know about that

H.R.Pufnstuf's friend Jimmy was pretty cute as a "mechanical boy"

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2137654408194070836

[ismnotwasm]

19. I do the opposite

I tell the younger people who feel pressure or get those kind of comments to wait or not do it, and don't let anybody pressure you into it. I get a lot of 'thank yous' from the young women I work with. I believe there are a lot of people who think they 'should' have kids, rather than 'want' them. (Not to lessen the pain of those who want them and cannot, for whatever reason, have them)

Adoption can be a beautiful thing, stay true to you heart and I wish you all success on whatever path you choose

edit; I said younger, but women who don't want kids and get told again and again about their 'biological clock' get my full support too.

[Book Lover]

21. Who are you having these conversations with?

I've never had anyone, other than my parents and maternal grandmother, ask me when I was having kids, why I wanted to wait, etc. In fact, my grandmother told me right out that if I didn't want kids, I shouldn't have them. Am I just left out of conversations normal people have?

[seabeyond]

32. thank you. i just posted the same. i was old before i got married. i never experienced

it either.

and i was out in the world. around lots and lots of people

i am wondering the same.

[prole_for_peace]

108. You have been lucky

I have never been bothered about it by a man but women just cannot seem to understand that I don't want kids. And it usually happens at work since the offices I have always worked in are made up of mostly women. So there are always the family conversations and when someone asks "do you have kids?" I reply "nope" and then the followup with "what are you waiting for" or "they are the best thing i ever did. you should have one"

I tell them I don't want kids and they look like I said "i eat kids for breakfast"

I then get the "Why?" and "you'll change your mind" and "you'll regret it" responses.

Same thing when they find out I have been with my bf for 16 years. I then get the "When are you getting married?" questions.

Luckily I am now 45 and everyone has backed off a little

[blueamy66]

111. I've said before that I am 44

I am ready to get my tubes tied...and that will be my response.

I GOT MY TUBES TIED. SHUT UP!

Thank you. :-)

[Book Lover]

121. After reading this thread, I wonder if it is luck, or the people I associate with

I truly am sorry to know that you and so many other women (seems men are exempt) from these rude questions. I just never have had them.

[MattBaggins]

23. I was adopted when I was 10

Tell those people to buzz off; they no not of what they speak.

[valerief]

28. I get a kick out of all the folks who spout "God's will" at the drop of a hat until

they want their own mini-me and can't have one. It's not God's will then according to them. It's just, "Wah! Everyone else has one and I want one, too!"

[seabeyond]

29. i think it is also pretty insulting to suggest that anyone would feel one baby is less than another

and lecture us adults on this. i assure you, that life, regardless, is equally important and the need for love is universal, not to mention value and worth. i don't know a single person that is so shallow to need such a lecture on worth of any baby.

if people are discussing this with you, i would assume you have brought this conversation up. for people to then suggest, that maybe.... is part of the package. but it sounds like what you are asking people, is allow you to make the statement and no one participate in conversation. that is hard. kinda like this post, where you lay it out in discussion form, yet tell everyone, listen and shut up.

you dont want to have a baby, i say... yea. dont. you want to adopt, fine. that is a good thing.

i was single until i was 32 and never never had these issues that other women seem to have, with everyone butting into my business. maybe when they asked, i didn't see it as an affront and answered the question. that satisfied them. but i did not have people running around telling me how to live.

[NeedleCast]

31. I Feel Your Pain

I've known pretty much since I was old enough to think about this topic and care that I didn't want to have children. Coming from a Southern Baptist family, it's been a non-stop war since I was an adult. My mom's side of the family includes two aunts, two uncles, 13 cousins, a nephew and a becoming-uncountable number of cousins' children. While my dad is pretty sane about this, my mom (and most of her family) have that belief that "you can't be happy unless you're married with children."

Funny thing is, as one of the old of the pack of cousins at 36, I feel very happy and have a life I enjoy very much. Many of them got married very young and started having children right away. Several (from reading they're Facebook statuses) are now miserable. All their posts are lamenting how busy they are taking care of children and family obligations.

The most common things I hear from them area.

1. You'll never know true love without children
2. Who's going to take care of you when you get older?
3. Don't you want someone to carry on your legacy?
4. You're going to regret it.

You're making the right choice and you seem to be one of the few people I've met who's actually thought this through. You go on telling people to step off, because that's what they need to do.

[Iggo]

35. You should have the other kind of children.

The non-biological kind.

Like robots and shit.

[smirkymonkey]

40. The best are the furry, four-legged kind.

Those are the only "children" I want. At least one, maybe more, big, friendly, furry dog. Kids kind of annoy me.

[TonyMontana]

41. I've always been bothered by this

What is it about having other people who share your DNA that makes them "your own"?

It's creepy.

[yurbud]

42. is this an argument you're having with your partner or just people in general?

[Dappleganger]

43. My brother-in-law adopted four kids.

They just finalized the adoption of #4. One white, two African-American and one biracial. The last three were from the foster care system so they did pursue children which many people never think about. We (the extended family) love and spoil these babies as much as any other Dappleganger child. I also have a number of friends who have adopted over the years, and have always admired their dedication.

Anyone who does this is A1 in my book. :toast:

[blueamy66]

63. Good on your bro

you should be proud of him!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

44. thats one thing that gets better as you get older

people stop telling you, you'll change your mind

[drmeow]

45. It is nobody's business

why you choose to have or not have biological children.

[TexasObserver]

46. You have made a wise decision not to have kids.

For the reasons you state.

Good luck with adoption, if you decide to do that.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

49. I applaud all people who DO NOT BREED.

The time for protestations that bearing as many children as you want is a "god" given right is OVER.

By our SELFISH attachment to our romanticized notions and biological urges, we ARE killing all other species who are unable to adapt to living in the polluted shadow of our human activities.

"Selfish" is NOT declining to reproduce your gene complement; it is demanding that every other living being on the planet take a back seat to your need for more, more more babies.

Yes, my opinion pisses off many people, but I don't care anymore. Admitting responsibility for the reality of our continued expansion and its effects on the planet is more important than anyone's protest that they don't like hearing about it. I've been called sick, twisted, ignorant and all other manner of unpleasantries for speaking bluntly about the subject. Pretty good indication that the issue needs to be taken out of the closet.

*****
It's very bizarrely coincidental that this topic should be front and center this evening, since I just spent the drive home from work having a meltdown over this exact subject.

It's monarch butterfly migration time, and there are far fewer than I remember 5 years ago... Seeing the few struggling to flutter south-- above highways, barely making it across, struggling against the wind impact from speeding vehicles--plunged me into such deep sorrow.

This time of year, there used to be hundreds of wooly bear caterpillars around too... I haven't seen any this year yet, and saw almost none last year.
Honey bees... I saw less than I could count on two hands this summer.

But I've seen plenty of Babies Я Us stores.

****

Here's a highly informational article, from the UK Guardian:
Humans driving extinction faster than species can evolve, say experts
Conservationists say rate of new species slower than diversity loss caused by the destruction of habitats and climate change

For the first time since the dinosaurs disappeared, humans are driving animals and plants to extinction faster than new species can evolve, one of the world's experts on biodiversity has warned.

Conservation experts have already signalled that the world is in the grip of the "sixth great extinction" of species, driven by the destruction of natural habitats, hunting, the spread of alien predators and disease, and climate change.
more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/mar/07/extinction-species-evolve




snip from: http://www.continuum-hypothesis.com/population.html:

In high school biology class we grew a bacteria colony on a Petri dish. I smeared the agar and put the dish in an incubator. After a couple of days there were some colored dots - bacteria multiplying and consuming the nutrients. I forgot about it for a few days, and when I opened the incubator again the dish was covered with a thick gray scum - the bacteria had consumed all the agar and died.

There are plenty of individual human geniuses - Newton, Gauss, Shakespeare, Beethoven, Einstein - but as a species we're like the bacteria on the Petri dish, controlled by our individual drives to survive and reproduce. In a way, we're more foolish than bacteria: we use our intelligence to try to pack a few more of our kind into our Petri dish, thinking we can outsmart nature. This foolishness may destroy us.

The central problem facing Earth is human overpopulation. This creates a chain reaction of consequences that are ruining Earth, are disrupting the natural processes that produced life, are causing massive extinction of non-human life, and in the worst case could lead to the extinction of human life. Social problems - injustice, economic inequality, genocide, cultural extinction, etc. - exist and should be addressed. But they're insignificant compared to overpopulation. The overpopulation problem will eventually solve itself, as it did in the Petri dish. Is a better outcome possible? Considering human nature, probably not. But we have to try anyway.

[stuntcat]

52. extinctions..

the fact that my species is driving ANY otherwise strong species to extinction breaks my heart.. but we're starting a mass-extinction! This is my biggest reason for not making one more person.
I can not imagine why so many still want to give their precious-picture-of-pure-innocence the rest of this century. They still MUST create little number 7,000,000,000??

I'm about to fall asleep but I'll read the links you posted in the morning, Thank you!

[Lorien]

69. I would never want to subject any child to the horrors that are to come

Those of us who are middle aged will face it when we're older. The planet is set to run out of all natural resources by 2040.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

136. yes, little unique miracle #7 billion and 1. Some estimates I've seen even put us OVER

seven billion.

Plants and animals die to make room for our fat asses, as a tee shirt slogan I've seen says.

it's heartbreaking.

I want to scream, sometimes.... and sob my eyes out the rest.

I have harsh words (which I will refrain from expressing here) for ANYONE who idiotically uses the "if everyone thought like you do, the human species would become extinct"..... the sheer stupidity of that statement defies imagination.

You're welcome for those links. There are tons more under human overpopulation on Google.

[stuntcat]

139. omg I start to shake every time I hear that..

"if everyone thought like you do, the human species would become extinct"

Humanity is lost, and many prove it over and over each day with this kind of talk. I'm not amazed anymore by how selfish people are, I'm just more and more horrified.

[Warren DeMontague]

142. No one here is telling you to have kids.

Trust me.

[seabeyond]

144. but i a see a few telling us not to and child abuse.... becomes comical. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

145. Yeah. "Who would bring a child into the world NOW"? Right, as opposed to 100 years ago.

Or 1,000.

We have 7 Billion People on the planet!

Yeah, because of medicine and indoor plumbing.

That's DU. Nothing, if not predictable.

[Lorien]

68. Amen. Nothing will change that truth. nt

[NYC Liberal]

75. So then, who should be allowed to "breed" and

how many offspring should they be allowed? Unless you want the human race to destroy itself by not reproducing, which I don't think you do, then clearly some people need to have babies.

[Warren DeMontague]

82. Know what my favorite argument someone floated in one of these threads in the past few months was?

Here it is, in a nutshell:

Well, okay, the United States- like most other developed nations where individuals have a fairly high degree of autonomy, access to contraception, etc.. --- runs about a replacement birth rate, and yes, any population growth we're experiencing beyond that can be tied to immigration; but, people who live in this country need to STOP BREEDING ALTOGETHER so that we can let more folks immigrate to the US.


Now, I'm not against immigration, not at all- but, really? People here should stop having kids- entirely- so more people can come into the country from other places?


I'm sorry, but isn't there something ever so slightly insane about that? :shrug:

[Techn0Girl]

86. Links ... or you just made it up.

[stuntcat]

90. fer real

whoever feels that way is also only thinking of the US, must be someone who hasn't grasped the big picture yet.
Many people who think of human over-population are thinking of the entire world. It's silly holding any nationality above the rest, I think.

[Warren DeMontague]

127. No, it's silly telling people in the US to stop reproducing when the population 'problem'

is mostly concentrated in a few, entirely different, places on the planet. Population is not fungible.

[stuntcat]

137. yah, this is where my feelings separate again from the rest of the humans

because to me it is the sickest kind of child abuse to give an innocent, potentially good child the next 80-90 years. For some of us it is already too heartbreaking.

[Warren DeMontague]

140. Okay. So how is that not offensive- implying that having kids is "child abuse"-

but suggesting to someone that they might want kids of their own (something I don't do, BTW) is?

I'm sorry, but the world -even with all the problems- is NOT that bleak. This is an exciting time to be alive. 2000 years ago children were born into an incredibly brutal world with a life expectancy of 30 short, painful, disease-ridden years. 10,000 years ago, you were offering them up to be potentially eaten by Sabre-toothed Tigers.

I mean, if you don't want kids, that's a respectable decision. But don't justify it to yourself by pretending that existence now and in the coming decades is a foregone morass of pain. I think the future holds great promise, and certainly isn't any worse than what Humanity has already been through.

[stuntcat]

146. I am not arguing you

trust me, I've noted your quips and opinions in this thread. All I'm trying to get through is the fact that no matter how comfortable I am I see what our progress means to the animals and the mountains and the oceans and the forests, and it hurts me inside. Also I know that at least 30,000 children will starve to death today.
A lot of comfortable 1st-worlders can carry on happily for months and years and that is great for them, but some of us aren't going to. Some of us are going to notice the natural things suffering and disappearing. I wish I was wrong in everything I feel. Please remember when you're in your 70's or 80's Stuntcat telling you how she felt about this, and how stupid and ridiculous she was.

Maybe if I'd had a baby, she'd grow up to feel just like you. But what if I'd had a baby and she grew up to feel like I do?

Peace, please.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

149. It's true, there will be an awful lot to say "I told you so" about

well, I mean, "about which to say, 'I told you so' ".......

Small comfort, whether or not the grammar is correct.


I don't know what Ignored said, but I'd imagine it was similar to whatever he said back when I saw that he had no interest in fact based dialogue.

[Warren DeMontague]

165. "fact based dialogue"

You can't get much more "fact based" than THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_fertility_rate



See those? Those are FACTS.

ps. Ignore Lists Are For Cowards.

[Warren DeMontague]

163. I'm not saying you're stupid or ridiculous, but your worldview is very bleak.

I genuinely hope you start to look around and see some lightness. It's there, trust me.

[stuntcat]

168. you're right, it is there! :D

My family (not the by marriage ones lol) are all amazing interesting beautiful people- poets, artists, musicians! My garden and my cats and squirrels and birds and fish all inspire me every day. I enjoy a lot of little things each day and also big things sometimes, trips and concerts and music! I could tell for pages and pages how much I love all this stuff. I also read news each day of what's happening on the other side of the world from me. It's a wild ride, my emotions :crazy:

I am sorry people here thought I was looking to fight. Reading what people have written here has made the sad part worse for me. I should have just kept quiet. Digging around the yard does my little mind a lot better than coming to DU.. I knew that before today though!

[Warren DeMontague]

169. It's also helpful to remember the Zen Parable of the Farmer's Luck

Sometimes, things proceed in unexpected directions.

[seabeyond]

143. you are joking right? cause this is the ultimate in your hypocrisy. surely

you jest

[stuntcat]

147. surely, I'm sorry

I'm sorry for being such a hypocrite. If you could tell me why you're talking to me this way, I'd appreciate it.

[seabeyond]

148. lets see.... it makes you sick at the child abuse with parents having kids..how dare you criticize

a person making the choice not having a kid.

you criticize people for having a kid as you lecture people about having kids

ultimate in hypocrisy.

i am talking to you this way cause.... you are being a hypocrite. and insulting to every parent that loves adn cares for their child saying they are child abusers.

[stuntcat]

150. I..

I hurt. In my heart and soul I hurt each day, knowing what's happening to the animals and the beautiful places we erase before we ever saw them. My mother knows this and agrees with me 100% about not giving the rest of this century to my innocent child. She didn't have much choice in the 60's when she made me and our little family was the Very Picture back then of the happy 70's success. MY child doesn't belong here now. The rest of the millions being squirted out this week will probably do just great. Maybe .2% of them will be big softy animal-lovers like me and for them I am sorry.

I'm sorry I caused you so much anger. I didn't pick you out to "lecture", also I won't call you names.

[seabeyond]

157. "squirted out"? on the one hand you act oh so innocent as the choice

of your words suggest otherwise.

calling you a hypocrite is your action, just like calling me a breeder... lol

and angry? dont worry about it, feel guilt or beat yourself up. i am not angry. amused... yes.

[Warren DeMontague]

128. Believe me, people get all kinds of nuts when this topic comes up.

The degree to which there is an undercurrent of self-and-humanity loathing among some folks here just boggles the mind.

This is not even close to the worst example, but it's the first one I've found espousing essentially what I said:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8818131&mesg_id=8822379

"Higher natural birth rate reduces immigration quotas for the year."

Yes, we're supposed to have a negative birth rate to increase immigration quotas.

[onpatrol98]

97. Slightly???

LOL. Slightly???

:rofl:

[BlancheSplanchnik]

134. oh Tut Tut! ...you're imputing to me words that I never said.

Argument by wild exaggeration is poor commentary.

[Warren DeMontague]

141. No, that's exactly what you said.

You want people without children to be left alone by the mean parent people who judge all childfree folks (in our copious free time, cough) but you also want the "god-given right" to lecture and finger-wag at people who do choose to "breed".

Give me a fucking break.

[NYC Liberal]

166. Which words were those?

I asked you a question.

[Jamastiene]

160. Thank you.

This is probably the first time I have ever been applauded for not having kids. And to think, I didn't even need to pick up my guitar or play a single note for the applause. :)

I agree with you, btw. The overpopulation problem is going to continue to get worse until it destroys everything, including us.

[Warren DeMontague]

171. Do you live in Niger, Guinea-Bissau, Afghanistan or Burundi?

No?

Then there is no "overpopulation problem". The "overpopulation problem" is a localized phenomenon, and has to do with culture, economics, access to contraception, and a host of other issues. To argue that people in First World Countries maintaining replacement birth rates have an "overpopulation problem" is fucking facile.

That said, I applaud you for making your own decisions about your own life. That's what everyone should do.

[Warren DeMontague]

170. How does your over-simplified analysis account for the fact that population growth has STABILIZED in

most Developed, First World Countries, Blanche?

All by itself?

Guess that bacteria in the petri dish known as humanity must be doing something right.

...Or not, since you're still forced to pass 'Babies R Us' stores on the way home from work? Waaaah!


Oh, I forgot, you've got me on "ignore".

[femrap]

50. I completely support

your decision. You stand as model to the world of selfish ova and sperm.

So many children are here and need love. Good for you!:yourock: :applause: :yourock: :applause: :yourock: :applause: :yourock: :applause: :yourock: :applause: :yourock:

[Warren DeMontague]

81. Why, some people have several folks right inside their own head that need taking care of.

Full time.

[TBF]

55. You're being very unselfish and that should be applauded -

I have two biological children, and love them dearly. I also love my adopted dogs :) Maybe not exactly the same, but I do think adoptive parents can be amazing, and we all know there are plenty of examples of biological parents who aren't fit to be in the same room as children.

On a personal note I came down with arthritis recently, and my father had early onset as well (his even earlier). If I had come down with it before I had children I might have made a different choice regarding childbirth. I can completely understand your thoughts in that regard.

Best of luck!

[Lisa0825]

56. Amen, Amen, AMEN!

I am 42 and soooooo tired of people who can't understand that I do not spend my days aching over not having children.

[Juche]

57. Out of curiosity, what role did the pain of your mental illness play in your decision?

Obviously if you don't want to answer you don't have to. But a good deal of the people I've talked to who don't want biological kids of their own (including myself) can trace a good part of that decision back to the emotional pain experienced from suffering from a neurological illness. It is hard to justify passing on your DNA and bringing a life into the world after events like that. If I ever have kids I am going to adopt.

[gmoney]

58. You should have mechanical children

[jmondine]

70. or geological children

[donheld]

59. I totally agree.

[BlueIris]

60. Fuck anyone who would try to tell you what you "should do" re: kids.

Just...fuck them.

[blueamy66]

61. I refuse to read any replies to this post.

I was adopted. My brother was adopted....from Catholic Charities in New York.

My parents tried for a few years to have one of their own. We became their own.

My childhood/upbriging was perfect. My parent were perfect.

I cannot say enough about adoption.

If my parents were alive today, I would shower them with kisses, cause they were the bomb!

:-)

[ThomCat]

64. Good for you.

:hug:

I always wanted to be a dad, and never had the opportunity. Whether it would be biologically, through adoption, fostering, whatever, I would have loved to have raised kids.

My health and disability killed any chance I might have had. So no kids in my life.

But if you can adopt, please go for it. There a child out there waiting for you, especially if you are willing and able to to adopt and care for a "special needs" kid.

[stevedeshazer]

65. That's funny. I don't remember telling you to have biological children.

Who is telling you these things?

Because it ain't me and a whole lot of other posters in this thread.

:shrug:

[musicblind]

71. Great post and also a great reason to support gay adoptions.

Gay people could also provide many loving homes for children who do not have them.

I say good on you, and stick to your guns. Do what feels right for YOU.

[Number23]

74. Love this post. Happy to rec

First of all, I hate the assumption that children who are adopted are less one's own than biological children.

I absolutely agree.

Edit: Just read through the thread though. There is a whoooole lot of weird and crazy up in here.

Disclaimer: I don't know if this OP was brought about because of another thread or what its purpose was. I just took the OP at face value and I agree with it. That is all.

[Hekate]

76. You need to (a) find an answer that turns people off and (b) hang out with other people

Your medical history has complicated your life and will continue to do so -- and it is no one's goddamned business but yours. Do not under any circumstances discuss your medical history with someone asking such personal questions unless it is your doctor or a prospective spouse. Period.

:grr: Sorry, sometimes Hekate is a really cranky Crone. Fortunately, by the time someone cornered me with such an interrogation I already almost was a Crone and had the presence of mind to say something to the old biddy that shut her up permanently. And I was not even rude. 'Nother story, not yours.

I think it was Judith Martin (who writes under the name Miss Manners) who suggested a dumbfounded look, followed by YOU asking "Why on earth would you ask such a personal question?" followed by YOU giving the rude questioner a blank stare until THEY get uncomfortable. They won't try again, and may even apologize for being nosy.

Miss Manners speculates that such rude people will keep up their behavior until enough people ask them "Why on earth would you ask such a personal question?" or until some poor soul bursts into sobs and runs out of the room.

Hekate

[jobycom]

77. Okay, I'll stop, although honestly I don't ever remember telling you that.

[Warren DeMontague]

80. Amazing how quickly these threads devolve into "FUCK THE SELFISH BREEDERS"

Yeah, I don't give a shit if you don't want to have your own biological kids, or if you want to adopt, what. I think adoption is great.

But please spare us the other side, the miserable "humanity sucks" finger-wagging, the endless bitching about "screaming yuppie broods", the gibberish about how the planet is overpopulated but it doesn't matter which countries the birth rate and population growth actually IS a problem, because it's the people in countries that have reduced their reproduction rate already that need to "stop breeding, dammit"



:eyes:

Yeah. Do what you want, honestly, I don't care.

But the self-righteous "childfree" (no, this is NOT everyone who doesn't have kids, or even everyone who calls themselves that) on the other side who feel entitled to tell other people NOT to reproduce?

Yeah, they should step the fuck off, too.

[Techn0Girl]

85. Are you trolling?

Your comments are mean spirited, unrelated to this thread and uncalled for.

[Warren DeMontague]

126. I guess you didn't read the rest of the thread.

It's very simple. If someone chooses not to have kids; that's their decision. If someone chooses TO have kids; THAT'S THEIR DECISION.

It's not "trolling" to tell the self-righteous busybodies to 'step off', that's what the OP did. Or maybe it's only okay when you agree with the position being defended?

[Techn0Girl]

161. You are boorish....

and ill mannered and I am simply going to dd you to my ignore list.

Just as in real life - no one wants to talk to an anti-social person who has no idea of manners or social convention.

[Warren DeMontague]

164. Translation: You don't want to deal with what I've actually said.

Ignore Lists Are For Cowards. :hi:

[stuntcat]

92. hm you have the cool Nasa avatar :)

The human population went from 1 billion to almost 7 billion in a blink of time for this little planet, which is now suffering all over. Seems like someone who's given it any big-picture kinda thinking would see beyond the borders of countries.

Some of us may be very self righteous, that can come from resisting all the stupid pressure for years. But it's a very personal decision for me, not to give my innocent baby the rest of this century. My child would grow up knowing that I could see what was coming and made her anyway. I'm sorry but I am proud of not bringing my baby into this.

[Warren DeMontague]

133. Here's the "Big Picture": Developed Countries with free populations and access to contraception

reduce their birthrates on their own.

Population on the planet is stabilizing. If the planet is "suffering all over", it's due to other things, not reproduction in first world countries. The idea that somehow Americans are the problem so if we could just stop making new Americans.. it's not only self-hating, it's absurd as well.

Big Picture thinking? We need to develop new, sustainable ways to power our civilization. That's the bottom line. Humanity is here, on this planet. We're not going away. When the Human population was 1 billion, we had things like smallpox and polio and a 35 year life expectancy. The elimination of those things, along with stuff like indoor plumbing, are the main forces responsible for the 1-7 billion person jump.

If you ask me, I'd rather live on a planet with 7 billion people, indoor plumbing and a smallpox vaccine, than the alternative.

[CBR]

99. +1000. Just found out I am pregnant with my first. We are over the moon! Selfish breeder here. nt

[seabeyond]

102. congrats. have fun, and enjoy. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

132. Hey, Congratulations!!!

I know what you mean. It's an exciting time. Enjoy!!!

[Jokerman]

135. So tell me...

How many times have you been told IN PERSON that you shouldn't have children? Not on the internet by some anonymous bomb thrower, but IN PERSON.

I seriously doubt that it will come anywhere close to the number of times any of us who have chosen to remain CHILD FREE have been BERATED by friends, family members and even complete strangers about our decision.

[Warren DeMontague]

138. I haven't been told in person. Probably, because I'm a fairly strapping dude.

And I think the humanity-hating crazies here on DU feel comfortable expressing all sorts of idiotic shit that they would certainly never say out loud in, say, a Starbucks. You couldn't even get through the threads on James Lee without a few of DU's 'best and brightest' expressing sympathy for his utter nuttiness.


Honestly, though? I think the miss manners approach is the right one. Anyone who says something like that to your face should be met with a withering stare and a "what makes you think that is any of your business?" I'm sorry -I mean it in all seriousness- that you've had people around you making your personal business theirs. They shouldn't do that.

[Jokerman]

174. No, they shouldn't do that.

But they do. Having children is seen as the "normal" thing to do and as soon as you tell people that it's not what you want, their manners fly right out the door.

I've had to rescue a friend from a group of women at a party who became offended and down-right cruel when she said she didn't want children. They took it as an attack on their lives when she did nothing more than state her personal opinion.

My own father and I didn't exchange more than a couple of dozen words in the last five years of his life because of my "pigheaded and selfish" resistance to his plan for me to "carry on the family name". He was a mean, old drunk and if I had children, I wouldn't have let them spend much time around him.

Some people are just jerks, particularly when hidden behind an internet user name, but the anti-child jerks I see here on DU have got nothing on the pro-child jerks I've met in person.


>> Completely off-topic:
Recently rented "Greg The Bunny" and I have a new-found appreciation for your user name.
:fistbump:

[Warren DeMontague]

185. Yeah, that show had its moments.

And I'm sorry you've had to deal with that. I respect the decision not to have kids; for lots of reasons, for lots of people, it's a very sensible one. I certainly don't think kids are the kind of thing- like marriage- that anyone should attempt to incorporate into their lives unless they're pretty sure that's the road they want to take.

I have a lot of friends who don't have kids and don't intend to-- main thing I notice about them is how well-rested they look. And I mean that in a good way.

[old mark]

83. Rec. L&S, I have 2 brothers and a sister and none of us has any natural kids - one of my

brothers adopted twin girls about 15 years ago, but that's it.
I have been acused of being selfish, of being less-than-masculine, etc, for not wanting kids. I believe there are already too many people in the world, and that I never wanted to add to that.

Good luck - go with your own feelings.

mark

[RandomThoughts]

84. There are some people that actually think their immortality

is in their children by blood lines, it is part of the problem in society, and leads to lack of empathy by being able to separate people into groups.

Hard to explain but there are a couple doctrines, the one about blood line of Christ moves spiritual into physical blood lines, as does doctrine of divine right of kings.

Also I am pretty sure some Asian cultures believe that ancestor spirits live like that, and some interpretations of cutting off of houses is thought to be literally about blood lines.

From that concept some people can form an idea they are better or someone else is worse. If someone does not want to have children or does, that should not be for a selfish reason of some concept of immortality through offspring, that is an offshoot of the neurotic behavior stage parents that want their children to be what they wanted to be have. The same feeling of a parent trying to live out their life in their children, matches thoughts of immortality or extended life by having children.

It can be shown to be a malformed concept, by examples of it appearing in many ways outside of that doctrine. And by the effects of that doctrine on how you view other people in the world.


I think someone passes on who they are every time they share a kind gesture with anyone. So agree people should have children or not, based on their own feelings.

[Dorian Gray]

87. I'm shocked that so many people

in this day and age are so judgemental about having biological children. For what it's worth, I think adoption is a noble and wonderful way to start a family. (I say that as I was adopted.)

I have friends who never wanted children and never had them, and they are quite happy with their lives. It's really nobody else's business, to be honest.

[eilen]

88. It is your life, and your choices

so screw them. I have one child that I wanted. We didn't need or want or afford more than one. According to some, being an only child is almost like child abuse -- and he will grow up lonely and selfish. Whateveh. If I was to look at his cousins who come in 3's from each sibling, he is the most personable, generous, intellectually curious, interesting and empathic individual. And I love love love my nieces and nephews. They squabble a lot though. He has spent enough time with them to appreciate the peace in our home. He enjoys being with them but when he has had enough, well, it is time to go home.

We made the correct decision.

[yellerpup]

93. Tell them instead of criticizing,

they should be sending you tribute because you have not produced competition for their children and grandchildren. Adoption is compassionate and rewarding. There is nothing wrong with you or your decision. :hug:

[LWolf]

94. I've never told you, or anyone else, that they ought to have children from any source. nt

[NikolaC]

95. Thank You, Wonderfully Stated OP

I too have had my share of, "How many kids do you have? Only one, why?" It makes me want to scream sometimes. I was told that it was difficult for me to have kids, so four years into my first marriage it was amazing when we had my son. After my first husband passed and I remarried we had a close call, but have been married for nearly six years now and have accepted the fact that I may no longer to be able to have another child. It is okay with us because my son is amazing, my husband wants to adopt him, and we want adopt another child in a year or so. I am almost 40 and it really burns my hide when people assume that I not only have the one child by choice and being selfish, but that somehow it is their business. It's ridiculous, I believe, to make assumptions about people based on the number of children that they do or do not have. As if that is some sort of indication of how worthy and stable they are as people.

[raccoon]

96. I think you are very wise not to want biological children, from what you've said.

I never wanted any, never had any.

I think it's great that you want to adopt.

"It seems to be acceptable in our culture to judge, criticize, or otherwise meddle with women's choices regarding marriage, pregnancy, and family."

ITA--and it shouldn't be. I don't know how old you are, but trust me, when you're older people won't ask that.

In the meantime, try to tune them out, or come up with some dignified but well-chosen remark to shut them up. :hug:

[InvisibleTouch]

100. And then you get people like me...

...whose children are, and will always be, exclusively non-humans of many different species.

Anyone who took issue with that, I would tell in no uncertain terms to go to hell.

It's your life, your choice, and no one else's business. For my part, I commend you for wanting to give homes to those that already exist, rather than adding more humans to an already overburdened planet.

[AmandaMae]

104. I'm 19 and want to remain childfree,

something I don't see changing throughout my lifetime. But because of my age I get told the same things, that I'll change my mind, that it would be selfish not to give my parents grandchildren, etc. I'm an adult, and I'm tired of being treated as though I'm not capable of making decisions about my future. Not only do I not want kids, but I don't think I would make a good mother and I'm not ashamed to admit that. I have nothing against kids but I just would not be willing to devote the amount of time it would take to raise my own.

[prole_for_peace]

114. I am right there with you.

Or I was when I was your age. I never wanted kids. Even as a kid when we played house or whatever I was always a child free working woman. But I used to talk about having them because that is what you did: get married and have kids. Then one day I realized that I didn't HAVE TO HAVE kids just because everyone else did.

Of course that is when the harassment started about being selfish, lonely, unloved, changing my mind, regretting it later, etc.

But I alway stood my ground and said I just have no interest at all in being a mom and when I hit 43 or so people (other women) started backing off. Even though every know and then one will pipe up and I say that even if I wanted one don't they think it would be safe for me or the baby because of my age and then they grumble something and wander away

[Jamastiene]

167. It does get easier when you get older.

I've been there too. My mother finally accepted my pets are her grandchildren. She enjoys visits from them and I enjoy visiting my "brother" (her poodle).

Other people just finally realized I wasn't going to change my mind. I'm 40 now. I still don't want children yet. There are way less people who ask me that question nowadays than it used to be when I was your age.

So, live your life to the fullest as you see fit. You decide what to do with your life, not those who swear you'll change your mind. Tell them it's none of their business what you do with your life. It is yours and yours alone.

[Dash87]

105. I'm with you. I support your right to make your own choices in life!

And there's nothing truer than your last statement. :)

♥

[COLGATE4]

109. It's your body. It's your business. Period.

[DirkGently]

110. There's no blueprint for what "family" should look like. Build your tribe as you see fit.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

112. If your children aren't biological, what will they be? Silicon?

What a silly thing for other people to expect of you!

[mkultra]

115. Dont delude yourself to much

While adoption is both admirable and moral on multiple dimensions, it varies significantly in experience from raising biological offspring.

Your health concerns make for a compelling reason to consider adoption and, for you, adoption may be the best choice. But frankly, speaking as a father who has biological and adoptive children, i must reconcile what i want to be true with what i know to be true.

The simple fact is that adoption is more service to the child while having your own is more service to the parent. I would never want my adoptive children to know this, but the fact remains that seeing those giant pieces of me in the bio kids while they grew was a truly educational experience. It was amazing to watch at times as it almost felt like i was watching myself grow up again. Its like a 20 year nonstop magic show.

While i had similar experiences with my other little ones, the depth just wasn't the same. Honestly though, that just may be related to the fact that i am male. My wife has always said that it makes absolutely no difference to her. Frankly i think there is something instinctual in that effect.

[hendo]

116. Who here was saying that?

What a bunch of idiots. I personally want my own kids, but adoption is a very noble pursuit.

[mstinamotorcity]

118. It is always

one's choice as to how they want to have children. It should not matter what your so-called friends say or people you know.When someone you care about tells you about one of the most dramatic changes in life is about to happen to them if the person is happy then your real friends will be happy for you.With all the unwanted children in the world and children who live below the poverty level,its nice to know someone cares.

[tavalon]

119. Bless you!

I so get it (though my damn biological clock did go off. But it got better). I have a wonderful stepchild. He's enough. And yeah, it's fascinating how this area of life seems to be open season.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

122. My wife and I decided on cats as cheaper, quieter, and easier to herd.

[niceypoo]

125. Two problems I have with Cats

1. Barf a lot
2. They only live 15-ish years, cant stand losing em!!

[Unca Jim]

123. I doubt..

people are trying to be insensitive. They just don't know your whole situation.

[Warren DeMontague]

129. I'm astounded that there are all these parents who have time to give a shit.

Really, I barely have time to floss my teeth.

[KamaAina]

130. Sorry, no can do

I never started telling you that. :loveya:

[Gormy Cuss]

131. You really should have biological children. A quiverful would do.

:hide:

Seriously, when someone says that to you, roll your eyes or laugh at them. No other answer is necessary.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jamastiene]

158. I wish I wasn't too late to Rec this.

If I ever have children, I think adoption would be my choice too. I've never seen the point in making a baby when there are children in orphanages who would love to have a home.

[Liberal_in_LA]

175. K&R

[StarryNite]

179. Be true to yourself. n/t

[AsahinaKimi]

182. I am with you!!

Adoption is my Option!

[pipi_k]

184. I've already caused a few people to not want to have kids...

just by posting a link to this site:


http://www.shitmykidsruined.com/2010/09/24/poop-gloves/


on my facebook page.


:rofl:

[shanti]

188. i wouldn't think of telling anyone

that they should have children. that's such a personal decision!

[Withywindle]

193. I hear you. Goddess, do I hear you.

I'm 41 and I've never "changed my mind," as I was assured that I would. Not even a flicker of interest. I'm genuinely happy for my friends who have kids (whether by birth or adoption) and arrived there after a long process of making sure that it was what they TRULY wanted and making sure they'd be able to be good parents. (I'm less happy for some people I know who had kids "by accident," and I'm really not happy at all for their children.)

I'm with you on the adoption thing. I always told myself, if I ever did "change my mind" and get that feeling of desire for a child, that's what I would do. There are so many children out there who need a family, need someone to love them, someone to raise them, etcetera. Turns out I never did feel the desire, so it probably won't happen, because it does a child no service to be raised by someone who isn't interested (bio-parent or not).

One thing I'm struggling with is that I have a friend who learned a couple years ago that she is infertile. She doesn't want to adopt, she says it's "personal reasons." OK, not my business (neither is the state of her cervical mucus, IMO, but I now know way more than I ever wanted to about THAT).

But now she and her husband, after tens of thousands of dollars of fertility treatments that failed, are now planning to spend tens of thousands of more on egg donors. I want to be supportive. I enjoy her company and her conversation on every other topic in the world other than this one. But I am SO FUCKING RESENTFUL that I can't afford a fraction of that to see a doctor at all (being uninsured), and that the amounts of money they are spending (wasting, IMO, but I can't say that) could have raised an adopted or foster child to adulthood and made a nice dent in his/her college tuition. What to say? I just bite my tongue and make fake soothing noises whenever the latest bad news from the lab comes down.

[seabeyond]

195. that is a tough one. that would be a tough one for me

not that i care about her $ comparatively, but ya.... i see it about like you and find it sad. there are kids to love and to me, it really does not matter. i would have loved to have had one more child... adopted. but hubby was done and has to be joint.

[Withywindle]

198. It is tough. And I know there are a lot of people like her

who really truly seem to believe they can't love a child as their own if it didn't come out of their bodies some way.

I know adoption is not an easy thing and it comes with its own fraught issues and expenses and exploitations and all that...I just have a real problem with rejecting it as an option out of hand for purely emotional reasons you're not willing to discuss...

I mean, think if they'd signed on as foster parents, taken in a needy kid (with the option of adopting if it worked out well) and put half that money into an interest-bearing account for college for that child in the future, and donated the other half to a charity with a proven record of really helping to bring food and health care and education to kids in poverty around the world....

I know, I know, mommyhood is EMOTIONAL and a cold, barren, unnatural woman like me can NEVER really understand the complexities of the mommy-drive (or so I'm told)--but dammit, can't practicality and an acceptance of physical limits and a thought for the greater good come into it somewhere?

[rebecca_herman]

202. This is what I don't get

So many people who prefer to adopt or don't want kids at all don't want to be asked why or bothered about a personal decision and feel it's their own business and no one else's (which I do agree with), but you think it's your business to know exactly why this particular couple doesn't want to adopt? Maybe this person doesn't want to tell you because she knows your views and thinks whatever her reason is will be judged "not good enough," and she's gone through enough pain already?

I want children, but if I have difficulty having them, I am very, very unlikely to consider adoption, for a variety of very serious personal reasons that I do not wish to discuss (except to say the reason is not "I'll die if I don't have a mini me running around!") and if someone asked me why, I doubt I would tell them as it's really no one's business but my own. For all you know they have a reason they CANNOT adopt that is private and they don't wish to discuss (there's actually a good chance I'd be disqualified ANYWAY, for reasons that would not prevent me in any way from being a good parent).

[seabeyond]

203. interesting perspective, and you are right, too.

i go out and about and run into perfect strangers who tell me their life story. i ask questions? i dont do it to be rude, or judgmental, or to lecture or feel superior. i do it because we are all uniquely different and i LOVE hearing others take on life and why....

i have to always find out the why

my husband doesnt need the why to anything. my son and i were just talking about it.

i can find myself asking, and a person can tell me ... personal, and that is cool. more likely than not, they will tell the story and i will learn something. and have a moment to connect.

[Withywindle]

206. Well, that's a good point.

I've never grilled her on the subject - just asked once or twice and dropped it, and I would never grill you either. It's just that she is so, SO focused on having a child, and going through so much, and I'm all like, "well, isn't there an easier way?" But if it's not easier for her, well, that's that. Thanks for opening my eyes on this a little.

[Withywindle]

199. Also, my resentment on the money issue

like I said, OK, I don't have health insurance. Hypochondriacs have always annoyed me, but now I want to slap them because I feel most of them want to play the victim and yet do not understand that they are PRIVILEGED if they can run to the doctor whenever they start "feeling" any symptom they just read about on Google.

But mostly, I feel that there are...well, shit, it must be about 100,000 by this point...being spent TO MAKE A GENETICALLY-SPECIFIC PERSON. Who does not exist yet and, frankly, likely never will, no matter how much money they flush down the fertility-clinic crapper. If they have that much money to blow on the merest possibility of a Frankenfetus, then they could use that to help children who actually already exist, and are just as worthy of love and a home and a future as the result of their four-star-chef sperm-and-egg omelet.

A child who doesn't exist can't possibly feel the pain of being alone and hungry and scared. But there are plenty of children who do exist, who do.

[Warren DeMontague]

200. Wow. Your friends are trying to have a baby, and you're calling it a "frankenfetus"?

Does everyone you're friends with submit their expenditures to you, so you can decide whether they are reasonable things to spend money on?

It's THEIR DECISION. If you can't deal with it, you can't approve, you can't refrain from saying snarky stuff about their sperm and egg omelets... uh, maybe you should find other friends.


As to the endless hand-wringing about "WHY".. let me break it down for you: We are animals, more specifically we are living things. We have a deeply rooted impulse to reproduce. To reproduce ourselves, our own genes. It's what we do. It's what we've been doing for some 4 billion years, that's why we're still here.

Now, right, wrong, good, bad-- you're talking about a very powerful drive that has a long and very logical history with who and what we are. And saying that doesn't mean the drive is inescapable, or that it should be followed under all circumstances, or even that it doesn't also come along with some very good things like the boundless love most of us have for our kids. Not coincidentally, the drive is connected to, but not always synonymous with, sex- which is also a biological drive that comes with stuff that makes it that and much more. And, no, although all these things are connected in many people, that does NOT mean that sex is always about reproduction or parental love is about genes. But these things have an evolutionary history and are part of how we got here in the first place.

But really- if you're driving yourself crazy asking yourself "why, why, WHYYYYY"? Don't bother. It's what they want, it's their business, and if it pisses you off that much, tell them-- or don't hang out with them anymore.

[Withywindle]

205. Oh, I realize it's their choice. I was simply venting.

It's what enables me to be as supportive as I can (which probably isn't very), by blowing off steam somewhere she'll never see it. I've never claimed to be a completely good person.

[CBR]

204. You do not seem to know much about IVF at all. Ignorance. nt

[Marengo]

196. My Chinese wife receives maddening pressure from her family

to have children. They believe it to be an obligation. I don't wish to have children, and she vacillates. We keep delaying, and I have the feeling we have decided on an unspoken level to simply let the "clock" run out.