Toyota admits the data they used to blame sudden acceleration on human error was bull shit

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/la-fi-0915-toyota-blackbox-20100915,0,6383461.story

Toyota acknowledges software bug in 'black box' reader

The automaker says it has fixed the problem, but the admission casts fresh doubt on the reliability of data from black boxes in cases of sudden acceleration

By Ken Bensinger and Ralph Vartabedian, Los Angeles Times

September 15, 2010

Toyota Motor Corp. has acknowledged that a software bug in the device used to read its black boxes produced faulty data, only months after the automaker touted information from the recorders to suggest that human error caused sudden acceleration.

The automaker said it spotted and fixed the problem — which could give incorrect information on speed — in June and that it did not affect readings for pedal and brake application, crucial keys to determining potential causes of sudden acceleration.

But the admission casts fresh doubt on the reliability of data taken from black boxes, known as event data recorders, or EDRs, even as they have been used to help prop up the company's image as it weathers its ongoing recall crisis. Toyota has issued more than 11 million recall notices in the last year and has been hit with hundreds of lawsuits.

"You can't rely on event data recorders to determine whether there has been a sudden acceleration event," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety. "We can't take Toyota at face value that the EDR is accurate enough to clear them of responsibility for sudden unintended acceleration."

[anthroguy101]

1. This is why I like Ford so much. nt.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NNN0LHI]

3. How good is the quality and worth of the goods or services you provide?

What company do you work for?

I am a Ford retiree.

Don

[hlthe2b]

9. +1000

;)

[DainBramaged]

22. The hit and run, perfected by defenders of the corporate masters

[madokie]

4. The head pulling needs to start with you

Ford vehicles are the longest lasting of the all the vehicles and I mean not limping along down the highway but after 10,20,30,40 years still going strong. The next time you have your head out in the air and you're traveling down the hiway take note of the numbers of OLDER ford products you will see still happily traveling down the hiway. then take note of the number of GM's and Dodges. You won't see very many GM products older than 15 years and very very few Chrysler products. Then take note of the number of older Japanese auto, You won't seen very many of them that are older than 20 years and I'd bet money on that if I was a betting man.

Many say that Henry Ford created the middle class when he started paying his workers a living wage way back when they first started making the model T. Still one of the longest produced and most produced models of automobiles.

[Brickbat]

5. They don't make everyday cars in the U.S.?

Actually, they do. We own three of them.

[comtec]

10. when were they made? what models? WHERE were they made?

The majority of ford's cars NOW are made outside of the US.

I notice I was attacked on everything but the relevant current facts.

and the rest of the facts were simply ignored.

I have to laugh.

You can not improve the situation in the US if you don't at least ACKNOWLEDGE the problem!

DID ford make good, maybe even great cars once? yes, after mr ford died, Ford was a model company (the constant efforts to kill their LOYAL union aside)

But since ray-gun ford has become the perfect example with what's wrong with american manufacturers.

Once up there with the best cars in the world, now simply "meh".

The ford cars sold across the pond are without a doubt excellent, but what is sold in the us...

We Americans deserve better, and Ford owes it's very existence to us.
It's a pity they don't share everyone's sense of loyalty.

Loyalty is a two way street, and Ford could give half a shit about y'all, especially the great Union members among us.

I criticize false loyalism, not the fine people on DU, democrats, and thinkers, that's all.

[sufrommich]

11. Here's a handy chart of cars made or assembled in the U.S

Notice all the American companies are checked "yes" under union made and most foreign cars made in the US are marked "no" for union made. So which car brand deserves our loyalty?


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/06/19/automobiles/20090619-auto-plants-4.html

[comtec]

15. And I thank you for answering that question n/t

[Romulox]

16. So...shouldn't you be retracting your erroneous assertions, upthread?

:hi:

[DainBramaged]

25. It won't! UAW made list

Air/Hydraulic Lifts for motorcycles
Company:Handy Industries LLC

Made by Local: 893 | Region: 4

Auto glass; replacement glass
Company:Tulsa Glass

Made by Local: 1895 | Region: 5

Auto Parts - torque converters and rebuild kits for transmissions
Company:DACCO-Bowser

Made by Local: 2409 | Region: 8

Auto Parts; Oil Filters
Company:Honeywell/Fram

Made by Local: 2413 | Region: 2B

Auto Suspension Parts; Rubber to metal bushing for ball joints
Company:Boge North America

Made by Local: 2343 | Region: 4

Automotive Springs; Leaf, Coil & Coil over shock for all makes and models; specialize in restoration vehicles
Company:Eaton Detroit Spring

Made by Local: 174 | Region: 1A

Batteries
Company:Johnson Controls

Made by Local: 3046 | Region: 3

Batteries
Company:Johnson Controls

Made by Local: 12 | Region: 2B

Drive shafts & PTOs; yokes shafts and bearings
Company:Dana Corp

Made by Local: 644 | Region: 9

Dump beds, plows, utility & van bodies
Company:America's Body Co.

Made by Local: 644 | Region: 9

Fuel Pumps, Calipers, Transfer cases
Company:Universal Mfg.

Made by Local: 1016 | Region: 4

Halogen Headlamps; Par/Halogen Flood Lamps
Company:Osram Sylvania

Made by Local: 1608 | Region: 3

Halogen Headlamps; Par/Halogen Flood Lamps
Company:Osram Sylvania

Made by Local: 1608 | Region: 3

Polyurethane wheels and tires for electric lift trucks
Company:Thombert, Inc.

Made by Local: 997 | Region: 4

Wheel bearings
Company:Kyklos Bearing International, Inc.

Made by Local: 913 | Region: 2B

UAW cars UAW SUVs/CUVs
UAW trucks CAW SUVs/CUVs
UAW vans
CAW cars
UAW/CAW vans
Buick Lacrosse
Buick Lucerne
Cadillac CTS
Cadillac DTS
Cadillac STS
Chevrolet Cobalt
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Cruze
Chevrolet Malibu
Chrysler Sebring
Dodge Avenger
Dodge Caliber
Dodge Viper
Ford Focus
Ford Mustang
Ford Taurus
Lincoln MKS
Mazda6
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Mitsubishi Galant
Pontiac G6
Pontiac Vibe
Saturn Aura
Toyota Corolla*
Chevrolet Camaro
Chevrolet Impala
Chrysler 300
Dodge Challenger
Dodge Charger
Ford Crown Victoria
Lincoln Town Car
Mercury Grand Marquis
Chrysler Town & Country
Dodge Grand Caravan
Volkswagen Routan
Buick Enclave
Cadillac Escalade ESV
Cadillac Escalade/Hybrid
Chevrolet Suburban
Chevrolet Traverse
Dodge Nitro
Ford Escape/Hybrid
Ford Expedition
Ford Explorer
Ford Explorer Sport Trac
GMC Acadia
GMC Tahoe/Hybrid
GMC Yukon/Hybrid
GMC Yukon XL
H2 Hummer
H3 Hummer
Jeep Commander
Jeep Compass
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Jeep Liberty
Jeep Patriot
Jeep Wrangler
Lincoln Navigator
Mazda Tribute/Hybrid
Mercury Mariner/Hybrid
Mercury Mountaineer
Mitsubishi Endeavor
Chevrolet Colorado Saturn Outlook
Chevrolet Silverado**
Dodge Dakota
Dodge Ram Pickup*
Ford F Series
Ford Ranger
GMC Canyon
GMC Sierra**
Mazda B-series
Toyota Tacoma*
Chevrolet Express
Ford Econoline
GMC Savana
Chevrolet Equinox
Ford Edge
Ford Flex
GMC Terrain
Lincoln MKT
Lincoln MKX
Pontiac Torrent
All these vehicles are made in
the United States or Canada by
members of the United Auto
Workers and Canadian Auto Workers
(CAW).


So the Ford not made in the US or Canada argument falls way short.

[DainBramaged]

29. Not gonna happen, they NEVER do.

[EOTE]

17. And thank you for admitting you were wrong.

Oh wait, you haven't done that. Even though 16 out of 18 Fords are made in the U.S. Well, don't let your complete lack of knowledge about cars keep you from making incredibly arrogant statements. This is the internet, after all. Most of the people reading your made-up-on-the-spot tripe won't know you pulled it right out of your ass.

[Brickbat]

12. Well, sure. The majority of Ford's cars may be made outside of the U.S., but many of those are made

for use in other countries. While I of course would like to see those made here, that cat is out of the bag.

Here are the Fords that are made in the USA by the UAW.

Ford Focus
Ford Mustang
Ford Taurus
Lincoln MKS
Ford Escape/Hybrid
Ford Expedition
Ford Explorer
Ford Explorer Sport Trac
Ford F Series
Ford Ranger
Ford Econoline

We have a 2001 F-250 diesel that we have done no work on besides oil changes. The thing is a beast. I got almost 200K out of my 2001 Focus wagon. I get 27 mpg out of my 2008 Taurus, which is a fantastic car. Mr. Brickbat gets 38 mpg out of his 2008 Focus -- a 2-door that he, at 6'3", is very comfortable in, and that I, at 5'10" have been comfortable taking on 10-hour trips.

Whether it's mileage, initial quality, lifetime quality, looks or feel, I have been more than pleased with my Fords since we started buying them. That's not false loyalty, that's comparing and picking what's best for me and my family.

[JPZenger]

26. Read the above post

Yes, Ford makes a high percentage of the cars sold in the US in the US or Canada. For example, in addition to the list above, the Ford Edge and Ford Flex are made in Canada. US and Canadian auto manufacturing is highly integrated. That is why the Canadian Government provided billions of financing to help out GM last year.

[DainBramaged]

23. You don't even LIVE here, what is your point commenting on OUR industry?

And calling Ford's shit, jesus get out of here and stop with the bullshit. Anti-union, from a Foreign country, THAT is the best!

[sufrommich]

8. "there are other, better, car companies who have done

MORE for worker's rights"

Example?

[Romulox]

13. LOL at how Henry Ford is a now a "KNOWN NAZI" (sic).

Your post = balm for the anti-labor conscience. :hi:

[madokie]

6. You got it

We have two very good '98 fords that we find no reason to trade or upgrade because they are such good vehicles still.

[Brickbat]

7. We switched to Fords in 2000 and have loved them ever since.

[anthroguy101]

18. It's too bad the Fusion and the Fiesta are made in Mexico

Those are two cars that I actually like. I also like the "new" 2012 Focus. Will that be made in the U.S.?

[blue_onyx]

21. The Focus is made in Michigan

[NNN0LHI]

27. That is because some people can't imagine that Mexican people actually buy cars

Just like Canadian people purchase cars too. Yea, they do.

Amazing isn't it?

That is why the company is called Ford of North America. Get it? Ford of North America.

See that wasn't that hard was it? Learn something new every day around here?

Works like this. Mexico and Canada allow our cars that are built here to be imported into their countries unlike Japan, Korea which have figured out how to prevent our cars from entering their markets. Because their government subsidized auto companies are like the Walmart of the auto industry. They use the same business plan. They know how important those industrial jobs are to their economy. Think Canada and Mexico would be letting us import our cars into their countries without giving them a piece of the pie? Do you think that would be fair? They realize it is the income tax revenue from those jobs in the auto industry that pays the wages for our teachers, police and other government jobs. Some Americans are still unable to understand this simple economic philosophy. Some of them are out of a job because of that.

And for the record Ford of North America has been building cars in Mexico and Canada since the 1960's that I know of. Maybe earlier?

Don

[Romulox]

28. I'd still buy a Mazda made in Hiroshima before a Ford made in Hermisillo

I'm not concerned (even a little) about Ford shareholders. It's blue collar workers I care about.

[Lance_Boyle]

14. And what has NHTSA said about reaching the same conclusion? n/t

[TexasObserver]

19. I'm sure Toyota's defenders will acknowledge they were wrong.

Toyota has lied for years about this problem.

[DainBramaged]

20. I posted this the other day and the yota crowd decended.....

[BlueIris]

24. At this point, I wouldn't drive a Toyota if it and the operating costs were free.

Even a premium AAA package and free gas couldn't make me feel safe in one of those things.

[ceveritt]

30. Somehow ...

... almost this entire post has devolved into discussions about Fords and what's made in the US or elsewhere. That's hardly the point. The points are:

1. At least Toyota has admitted to the bug, however belatedly that admission might be.

2. The bug—yes, according to Toyota—apparently could only give incorrect information on speed (mph). As an aside, I don't always trust or believe every corporate PR spewage any more than anyone else here at DU.

3. But here is the big point: Even IF runaway acceleration could occur in a Toyota (most all of which have modest horsepower ratings), the brakes on the vehicle are more than capable of stopping the vehicle—if the driver keeps a fraction of their wits about them.

Dating back to the alleged runaway acceleration of the Audi 5000 in the 1980s, the overwhelming majority of cases occurred simply because the driver placed their foot on the gas pedal and not the brake pedal. I literally do not have time to provide DU readers with every link proving this, but it is nonetheless true. Too many drivers are poorly trained in this country, if at all. When faced with an unfamiliar and alarming situation, they panic, and just press harder on the pedal. If it's the gas pedal, which they're thinking is the brake pedal, then you get predictable results—runaway, unintended acceleration.

Car and Driver magazine proved the truth of the Audi matter by, using an automatic-transmission model, pressing the gas pedal firmly to the floor with one foot, and pressing the brake pedal just as firmly with the other. The vehicle stopped. Period.

Most of the people here at DU cannot even imagine the amount of testing that goes into modern vehicles before they are released for production. Yes, simply due to sheer volume, recalls occur. For instance, if a vehicle of, say, 10,000 individual parts is assembled with 99.9 percent accuracy, it will be delivered with 10 things wrong. Common sense—and experience—can tell you that modern cars are delivered much closer to 100 percent.

As another aside: I have tested motorcycles and cars for magazines for just shy of 30 years. Those are my bona fides.

[Romulox]

31. LOL at "At least Toyota has admitted to the bug"--you must've forgotten the Congressional Hearings

that had to be called before Toyota admitted to anything. :hi:

[TexasObserver]

33. It's a design defect either way.

Either the vehicle is accelerating when the accelerator is not engaged - as many people have reported, including those with expert bona fides, such as police officers.

Or, the design of the pedals is defective, leading to the problem of drivers stepping onto to the accelerator, but thinking they're on the brakes. If Toyota experiences the problem more than other car makers, and it does, the reason is not "driver error." It's defective design which allows a driver to think they're engaging the brake when they're not.

Either Toyota has a bug in the system that causes run away acceleration or they have defectively designed their brake and accelerator pedals. They pay, whichever cause it is.

[mkultra]

32. Toyotas fricknin rock. Keep buying shit, it keeps the price of good cars in check.

You guys are like republicans with the complete reality block.