I don't get France, Belgium and Spain voting so overwhelmingly to ban Burqas

[Quixote1818]

France voted 335 - 1 to ban them. For such liberal countries this seems to suggest a basic lack of respect for freedom of individuality and religion people should be guaranteed by their country. I just don't get it coming from these countries? I believe in the US their right to dress this way would be protected under our constitution. So European countries don't have constitutions with such laws to protect these kinds of freedoms?

On another note, I do know that some Men force their wives to do this but I know for a fact that some women choose to dress this way on their own.

[LaydeeBug]

1. Regardless, I think it might be a matter of public safety...

I mean, wanna conceal your identity? Just throw on a burka and no one will be able to describe much more than your height.

[mia]

3. Burkas could hide a multitude of things. n/t

[gerenimox]

4. "public safety" is a good excuse

but we all know that what`s behind these bans is the widespread hatred against muslims in the christian world and nazism.

[Merlot]

29. And how do "we all know" that hatred of muslims is behind banning buquas?

How about a hatred of seeing women being marginalized?

Why does hatred even have to enter into this? Maybe these countries recognize that religious extremism is not a good thing. France is a secular gov't, I'm not sure about Spain and Belgium. But they've seen what extremism of any kind can do.

[TheBigotBasher]

36. Quite simple answer. This is being done by Sarkosky

who has been playing to the racist right for a while now to help poll numbers.

Look at the disgraceful actions he is taking against the Roma.

[WinkyDink]

52. Spelling?

[Mimosa]

63. Islam is not a race

Islam is a religion professed by native French people, and Europeans of various countries as well as Nothern Africans, Indonesians, Indians, Turkisg people, et cetera.

French people have a long culture involving high educational levels and many other factors. I don't blame them for wanting to preserve it. I don't feel entitled to criticise them. THEIR country's leaders did not choose to invade Iraq.

[Echotrail]

35. Yup. Could be anyone.

Criminals put costumes on all the time to dupe people. A full body covering is just too easy.

[mod mom]

46. Agree. Not only identity but would be perfect for a suicide bomber.

[DeSwiss]

2. Liberal AND secular.

They've had their fill of religions.

[proteus_lives]

19. Well, with a ban like this, they will be hearing a lot more from them.

[DeSwiss]

43. That's unavoidable.....

...but the sound is getting tinier and tinier.

- And one day, as our craniums continue to evolve, we won't hear them anymore. At all......

[proteus_lives]

48. Death of religion?

I doubt it. If it didn't happen during the Enlightenment and if the communists couldn't stamp it out, I don't think the religious side of humanity will die out.

[DeSwiss]

50. Just what makes that little old ant, Think he'll move that rubber tree plant...

Anyone knows an ant - can't
Move a rubber tree plant

But he's got high hopes,
he's got high hopes
Hes got high apple pie,
in the sky hopes....

:)

[Ozymanithrax]

5. I think they are concerned that societies that the Burqua hides...

more than the face and body, that it hides intolerance and the abuse of women.

[dkf]

7. You'd never see a bruise or a cut.

[Ozymanithrax]

9. Also, in groups where the Burqa is worn it is usually mandatory...

the women have no choice.

[Quixote1818]

10. I hope so but I just watched a video of a woman who was not married

who dresses in a burqa and she was pretty upset about it. It's almost like telling a Nun they can't dress that way.

[Ozymanithrax]

14. For some it is a religious thing...

but in most groups where the burqua is worn women do not have a choice, and they are taught from the cradle that it is unacceptable to go without it.

I understand why they did it. The Burqa is more than just clothes.

[Riftaxe]

11. Sure....that must be it...

:rofl:

[JVS]

6. It's a lot like the English as a national language movement here.

Europe's low-wage immigrants are predominately Muslim. In France it's immigrants from the former African colonies, especially Algeria. Even though the Europeans are generally hostile toward the immigrants they also expect the immigrants to assimilate to Western European cultural norms.

[Poll_Blind]

12. +1

PB

[Brooklyns_Finest]

8. Ha!

It is easy to be a progressive when most of the people around you look like you and are in your same socio economic bracket. Europe is facing major demographic and cultural changes. There is a major backlash to these changes. It will only get worse.

[Poll_Blind]

13. +1

PB

[Cid_B]

16. Correct...

The post WWII went all touchy feely sensitive ( just as we are today.) They are further along on their pendulum swing and it is also further along on the way back as well. They are tired and do not want to give up their culture ( some countries more than others )

[JI7]

15. it's a cultural thing , but this is just the burqa, not head scarf, right ?

[JVS]

18. Even in the German speaking countries where the local Muslims are mostly of Turkish heritage...

there are legislative movements to harass them for being Muslim. The reason I mention that they are Turkish is that Since Ataturk's time Turkey has already undergone a broad secularization movement and that consequently the Turks don't wear the Burqa and often forego the head scarf. So in these countries the harassment comes in the form of things like banning the construction of minarets.

Stop! Yes to the minaret ban.


Create Security.


"State child stipends for native families" is the what the words say

[JI7]

20. i agree, Europe is very bigoted , for all the problems we have in US, minorities

do usually have it better than in europe.

[JVS]

21. Someone floated the idea of affirmative action to help the children of immigrants get to...

the university in Germany. A friend of mine who is a loyal Green Party adherent thought it was insanity, claiming that the immigrants just don't want to go to college. On the other hand, if you're "native" and gay , you get treated better over there than gay Americans get treated here in the US. The situation for women might be slightly better there compared to the US due to things like maternity leave policies and better social programs, but it's too close for me to know for sure.

[WinkyDink]

53. Europe is far fonder of, say, Palestinians than of Jews.

[Hamlette]

22. It was punishable by death to wear a Fez under Ataturk

and it is illegal to even wear a head scarf in school and public buildings (or was a few years ago when I was there). Ataturk saw the value in modernizing. Turkey is more modern, tolerant, and secular than Greece, IMHO.

One of the problems with Muslims in Europe is cultural (not so much a melting pot) and that most of them came on temporary workers visas. They did not assimilate in part because they had no long term stake in the country. I think it would be a mistake to do it here as well. It gets mentioned sometimes for our "illegals".

But, historically, our assimilations were not always easy. The Irish, the Poles, the Italians, blacks. All had a turn although admittedly some far worse than others.

[Quixote1818]

17. Interesting News report video on this from France

http://www.france24.com/en/20090709-focus-islam-burqa-france-religeon-women-rights-freedom-sarkozy

[GoneOffShore]

23. Time to end the burqa and other holdovers from the Bronze Age

Let us know the burqa for what it is - a symbol of subjugation.

Are you also in favor of female genital mutilation? It's also a cultural thing.

[backwoodsbob]

33. why do so many have to pull these extreme absolutes?nt

[DeSwiss]

42. You mean tell the truth?

Habit.

[madville]

24. In 40-50 years Muslims will have a majority in most European nations

They can correct these things along the way as they gain more power and turn these countries into the places they fled in the first place, all they need is numbers. Same thing has happened in many places over history, flee a repressive and failed system but long to turn the new place into a home away from home, genius I tell ya.

[Skip Intro]

41. Yay, oppressive governments return! Move over western ideas of freedom. Women should not be seen!

:eyes:

[Brooklyns_Finest]

25. American Islam is the best form of Islam

Because we don't have to creat laws to supress them, our culture and vices are strong enough to corrupt them. Take my favorits muslim, Miss Michigan Rimah Fakih.

[MilesColtrane]

28. She's not so much halal, as she is hummina hummina.

[WinkyDink]

54. I'd say American democracy is good for its citizens.

[krabigirl]

26. They don't have the concept of freedom of religion, I don't think, at least not to our extent.

For example, many religions aren't even allowed in France, as they are considered cults.

btw, I completely disagree with the ban.

[David Zephyr]

27. I loathe the Burqa and everything it has done and does to girls and women.

I loathe it. Period. Burn the fucking things.

It's male domination over the better sex among us. It's evil

If there are to be Burqas, then men should have to wear them, if only to hide our ugly faces from the beautiful faces of girls and women.

I loathe Burqas.

[Echotrail]

39. I'm with you. I see tiny toddlers wearing them

Because of their gender they are marked as a sexual "thing" and hidden behind yards of fabric.
Disgusting.

I would like to see burqas banned in America as well but realize that people will say women have a "right" to protect this form of subjugation.

I don't have to try on a burqa to know what it's purpose is.

[David Zephyr]

62. Exactly!

This subject really upsets me. There is nothing "good" in Burqas.

It should be illegal. Grrrrrrrrrr.

And, nice meeting you here, Echotrail. :)

[Merlot]

30. "some women choose to dress this way" could that be because if they don't

they can be beaten and attacked? Do you really think that they wear them inside their homes? No they wear them outside the home because they are AFRAID of the men.

[Merlot]

31. Will someone PLEASE think of the children?

little jimmy: mommy, what is the scary blue thing?

mommy: it's a woman wearing a burqua

little jimmy: why?

mommy: because if she doesn't the men in her community can beat her up

little jimmy: (tearing up) mommy, will you have to wear one? they scare me!

little judy: (crying) mommy, will I have to wear one?

[Luminous Animal]

32. Maybe for the same reason we bomb the crap out of a country...

to save the women from their oppressors. (Well, that and WMDs, torture rooms, opium, public stoning... whatever works to get our dander up.) Certainly, the recent Time magazine cover of the mutilated young women was a call to arms to save a "savage" culture from themselves.

[tourivers83]

34. In the old days.

In Ancient Rome the government prohibited slaves from dressing different from citizens. The government did this so the slaves would not know how numerous they were.

:web:

[Codeine]

37. Because they recognize the value of a secular society.

We should be so lucky.

[Echotrail]

38. I think Europeans recognize the burqa as a mask of inequality

better than Americans do.

It sets women apart and reduces them to a one dimensional being. Wearing a burqa is done to hide oneself so as not to tempt men. I find it insulting to both women and men. Men are not animals without control.

The very idea of a burqa is a slap in the face to equality which so many women have had to fight for. It is about one gender having power and control over another.

I hope Muslim women who move to Western countries come to realize this and claim the rights given to them in their adoptive countries and throw away their burqas and don't make their baby girls wear them.

[Skip Intro]

40. I think it reflects a regard for human, and women's rights. nt

[DeSwiss]

44. "....I know for a fact that some women choose to dress this way on their own."

It's only a "choice" when a Muslim woman can wear what she wants without the fear of being the victim of an honor killing.

[riderinthestorm]

45. Those countries, and the US as well, and most western countries

have many laws telling women what they can and cannot wear in public. Nobody has fought for the "rights" of African native tribal women to go naked to work, school or the park (even though that "outfit" at least is female empowering) but now it's all bigoted to question whether we want to allow the misogynistic burqa?

FGM could be argued to be someone's "freedom of individuality" but that still doesn't mean it's something we should tolerate here in the west.

The burqa isn't religious so this isn't a "freedom of religion" issue either. It's cultural. And thus is fair game to be discussed, evaluated and legislated about - like many, many other things that have crossed the public square.

France has a very, very long history of secularization. They have banned clerics collars and other religious articles in the past. Their culture, constitution and history are very different than the US when it comes to religion and I'm not surprised in the least at the vote.

[Mudoria]

47. Sounds like Islamophopia to me...

[GoneOffShore]

59. Really? Sounds more like getting rid of bronze age nonsense to me.

[uppityperson]

49. Good. Only the extremists of the Muslims are for them.

[WinkyDink]

51. France, for one, is aggressively secular. Religious jewelry in schools has been banned for years,

e.g.

[SoCalDem]

55. Perhaps they do not want to slide into balkanized communities

and prefer to have a secular society where all are free to worship as they please in the micro, but in the macro, they prefer a less "in-your-face" approach to religiosity.

[a la izquierda]

56. Check your facts...

Spain did *not* vote overwhelmingly to ban burqas. It passed 131 to 129, and it only passed after really serious debate. That was in June. *AND*, Zapatero's government is not really in favor of the ban.
Then, in July, the Parliament rejected the ban.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2012401872_apeuspainislamicveils.html

[frogmarch]

57. I despise burqas.

If the women choose to dress this way on their own, let them do it in their homes.

Now I'm pissed off from thinking about the awful things.

[pitohui]

58. wild guess you also think germans should have freedom to wear the swastika

you don't know "for a fact" that any free, strong women "chooses" to dress this way on her own, because it's a lie, any woman who "chooses" to dress in a fucking burqa is a fucking prisoner of a man or of a religion that says explicitly that she is an inferior being whose body is so offensive and obscene that it must be hidden

i wish everyone who thinks that freedom to wear shit is more important than the freedom of living breathing human beings would come back as one of those women in a burqa in their next life and then talk to me about choice

no intelligent woman wears that crap by choice, that's why all the saudi women in vegas are dressed just like everybody else, it isn't because they feel so fucking free in a burqa

france and the rest MUST lead the way in banning this shit, france in particular has a tradition of standing strong against religion in public life that is ESSENTIAL to any kind of future for human kind

you know there are muslim countries too where it was recognized that dress limits women -- turkey is muslim but children (girls) are not allowed to wear the head scarf etc. in the schools, let them get to be adults and then make the "choice"

hmm, am i gonna assume that france knows a little more about stuff like this or my invisible friend on the internet...i'm gonna vote "france"

you would never make a choice to wear a burqa, recognize that NO intelligent person would instead of assuming that women are all fuckwits and actually wear this crap out of "choice"

sheesh...sorry to be so harsh but it's just fucking stupid -- sometimes there are two sides to an argument but sometimes there just ISN'T, well, there's the decent side and the wrong side that supports evil and it's pretty clear what a burqa is

NO "liberal" should support the burqa, if you support an item of clothing above a woman's freedom, then you are quite simply not a liberal...it is BASIC to liberalism not to discriminate based on gender, race, sexual orientation..and before you say "well in america men can't wear this and that, isn't that discrimination?" keep in mind i'm in new orleans, a man can wear fucking nine inch spike heels and a tutu and nobody's batting an eye here...THAT'S freedom...not a burqa

[War Horse]

60. "For such liberal countries"...

Many of us kinda want to stay that way, I suppose...

To those who suggest that it's a right wing, xenophobic (or even worse) thing, as well as those who say that it's deeply rooted in feminism, humanism, secularism and a long history of seeing what religious fundamentalism can lead to: You are right! All of you. And that's a huge part of the problem over here, really...

How does one separate free will from cultural pressure in all of this? I'm extremely sceptical of banning cultural/religious garments of any kind (except, I suppose, for purely practical reasons).

I despise the things myself, though. I'm sorry, but they reek of deeply rooted misogeny to me...

[Mimosa]

64. Burqas reek of deeply rooted misogyny to me, too

Burquas, chadors and niqab all are integral to the oppression of women in the Middle East.

I only hope the women can change it. In Saudi Arabia religious police roam all public places and can arrest females for displaying too much of their ankles, wrists and faces.

The garb is a strong symbol of oppression.

[BlueCheese]

61. In Turkey...

public sector workers are not allowed to even wear headscarves. The Turkish Parliament voted recently to lift the ban, only to have the Turkish version of the Supreme Court reinstate it. Turkey is of course an overwhelmingly Muslim nation.

Not every such ban is because of Islam-phobia.

[Baclava]

65. France, Belgium and Spain - - "For such liberal countries " = horribly false premise

You have no idea how deep the nationalistic pride resides in those countries