I just watched the video of a newborn being circumcised

[apples and oranges]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmX6RdRNoqk

Prior to watching the video, I was all for male circumcision. The baby was literally tortured and I guess it's OK because it's just a baby who will forget??

[Forkboy]

1. ....

[Swamp Rat]

2. LOL!

:D

[Chan790]

3. I just thought the same thing.

We really don't need another thread about this.

[Raster]

9. Then don't respond. Hide the thread. Move along.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xfundy]

213. Exactly.

Guys who were cut have no empathy, because they don't realize what they lost. Girls (American ones, mostly) think "Eww! It looks GROSS!"

STFU and listen to FACTS, for once, people who would, or have already, damaged your child for LIFE through this stone-age ritual.

[a la izquierda]

Are you for real?

I generally don't listen to ANYONE who tells me to STFU.
My husband doesn't feel damaged. He doesn't know the difference. You can take your sanctimonious attitude and shove it where the sun don't shine.

Xfundy...heh. I'll remember you for sure.

[TheCowsCameHome]

4. Just beautiful.....

:rofl:

[Renew Deal]

5. Why do you diminish the issue of male sexual mutilation?

I doubt you would post that about female sexual mutilation.

[Chan790]

15. Because these threads always end with a lock,

I oppose circumcision, I have no idea what Fork's opinion is on it. We both know that nothing good is going to come of this thread though.

[Renew Deal]

21. Something good can come out of it.

Maybe 1 less person will circumcise their kid. Don't insist on pushing this thread into flames.

[Chan790]

39. I'm not. I'm begging for a lock.

It doesn't take a Cassandra to see where this thread is heading. Woooooooo! Wooooooooo! All aboard for crazy town!!

[defendandprotect]

218. And you're not encouraging that behavior . . . ???

[Hello_Kitty]

16. Conflating circumcision with FGM is grotesque. eom

[potassiumnitrate]

20. So wrong

It's the same damn thing.

[Hello_Kitty]

61. Not even close. eom

[Codeine]

72. Fucking bullshit.

If they cut the entire head of your freakin' cock off THEN - and only then - would it be comparable.

FGM usually involves the removal of the clitoris, or - as my girlfriend just termed it - "the main reason for living!"

That you conflate the two issues speaks volumes.

[Renew Deal]

79. Your post is another example of DU posts about mens topics being dismissed.

No one is saying that female genital mutilation is unimportant or should be ignored. But topics about male genital mutilation are mocked. It's obscene.

[Codeine]

97. Not dismissed. I'm merely saying

that it simply does not compare with the absolute destruction of a woman's genitalia inherent in FGM.

[Renew Deal]

103. Why does it have to?

It's similar and more prevalent.

[Codeine]

136. Somebody else made the comparison. I found it absurd

to the point of obscenity.

[defendandprotect]

220. Where were you before that happened?

These are merely assaults on human sexuality -- yes one is more severe than

the other -- after all females are the gender more harshly suppressed.

80 million women, at least, still living have endured FGM --

Let's argue against both!

[potassiumnitrate]

111. Do you have a penis?

What the hell do you know about it?

[Forkboy]

121. I know a lot about my penis!

It's like I've had it all my life!

[Codeine]

134. Yes, I have a penis.

It's circumcised and I'm glad for that.

[Touchdown]

165. Delete

not worth it.

[Hello_Kitty]

100. They're mocked because people like you insist on engaging in ridiculous hyperbole

You can argue against the practice of male circumcision on it's own merits without dragging in FGM and, thus, diminishing that horrific practice.

[Touchdown]

317. So it's a contest with you. FGM is worse, so

MGM is less worthy. Strident words for an American woman who's genitals are protected by law, while american males are subject to the knife on a daily basis.

[jobycom]

152. Hardly. It's an example of a false equation being deservedly tossed out.

Saying that female "circumcision" is comparable to circumcision is like removing a tooth is the same as removing a tongue. The only issue with circumcision is the pain it causes the baby--there's no restrictive damage. Female genital mutilation removes part or all of the whole genitalia so that it no longer functions.

There's a greater issue, involving how cultures see gender. Circumcision has some strange cultural explanations, but they are usually about keeping the male organ healthy. Female genital mutilation is about removing a woman's ability to feel pleasure during sex. This is for one of two reasons, usually. Either the culture believes that sexual pleasure for a woman is a sin, or it believes that women are property and must be discouraged from having sex outside of whatever marriage their father arranges from them. Remove the pleasure, and in the mind of these men, there is less incentive for a woman to have sex, so she is "tamed," so to speak. Her desires or needs or wishes are irrelevant, given her status as a cow instead of a human.

It's not close. If you want your issues to be taken seriously, don't make false comparisons.

[Radical Activist]

335. Wow.

But male circumcision does decrease sexual pleasure and it's done for the same religious/cultural motivation to influence sexual behavior. It's a mistake to ignore that.

[donheld]

177. Men's topics like this one should be dismissed as rubbish

Comparing Male to Female circumcision is just plain idiotic.

[comtec]

119. I'm with Kitty on this one, it's not even close

because male bits are still "functional" after circumcision, FGM is... *shivers*

Look it's like having the head of your penis cut off.
you may be able to cause fertilization, but you may not get any pleasure from it.

FGM is complete denial of a woman's right to pleasure as a sentient being.

It stems from a barbaric attempt to control womens' sexuality, and has no place...period!

I wince at those clips anytime I see them, and I thank my parents for leaving me in tact (as does my ex)

It has also been shown that men ARE permanently emotionally scarred, IIRC it adds to a phobia of sharp things, more so than in-tact men.
Like a genetic memory, you don't know WHY, but it's just there.

[Renew Deal]

23. Why?

It's the same thing and more common in males.

[Subdivisions]

52. Note that the OP did a drive-by post.

[Javaman]

259. I know, these hit and run posts are classic...

fart in the elevator just before your floor!

:rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. Did you watch the video?

Is there a qualitative difference? Perhaps. Circumcised males probably retain more of their sexual function than girls who undergo FGM. Also, since FGM is generally performed later in life, the victim remembers the painful procedure.

Is there a quantitative difference? Hell yes. Each year, more than a million boys in the US are circumcised.

There is a morally-consistent view that could be taken on this issue; circumcision is bad for both boys and girls. I see only hypocrisy from circumcision supporters.

[potassiumnitrate]

55. There is NO REASON AT ALL to be pro circumcision

It's morally reprehensible, period. I DO NOT CARE that a major religion practices it. It's fucking WRONG. It's just as wrong as the Muslims who stone women to death for adultery.

One of the (many) reasons I'm so against religion in general.

[Codeine]

68. I love my circumcised penis.

It's made of de-turtlenecked win.

[Renew Deal]

73. Pictures please

:D

[defendandprotect]

221. .. but you have had no other experience ....

[Touchdown]

328. That makes 1 of us.

[Name removed]

294. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hello_Kitty]

80. First, I don't support circumcision of boys

And then,

Circumcised males probably retain more of their sexual function than girls who undergo FGM.

(facepalm)


Please learn a little about female anatomy before posting such a breathtakingly ignorant statement.

[lumberjack_jeff]

108. I guess your answer is no, then.

Inarguably, male circumcision decreases sexual sensation.

I understand FGM reduces sexual sensation to an even greater extent for women.

Are you disagreeing with that or are you trying to deflect the conversation with an eye-roll?

[comtec]

*face palm* Even I understand this one LJJ....

without the clit, orgasm is the next thing to impossible for a woman.
the sensation lost with male circumcision pales because you can still attain orgasm and quite a bit of pleasure.

[joshcryer]

184. Not only that, but natural lubrication functions stop.

It's done solely for the "pleasure of the male." They like their women high friction no pleasure.

[comtec]

199. *cringes*

as an in-tact male I find that a horrifying thought

More reasons to ban circumcision!!!

[jobycom]

153. Good God, man.

Do you know what female circumcision is? One has to question your understanding of either the female anatomy or of female genital mutilation. I'm not going to try to explain it further, but do a Google before you post any more about it. You're sounding like a flat-earther here.

[defendandprotect]

222. Rather than discussing any of this less often... we need to be discussing ALL forms of

circumcision -- male and FGM -- much more often!!

Keep in mind, what "David" actually suffered was a tiny nick in his foreskin!!

Keep educating -- obviously it's needed even here at DU!!

[tnlefty]

314. While there is no equivalence between female and male

cics, the female variety is much more harsh and is intended to diminish a female's sexual experience, I didn't want any of my 3 boys circ'd. The first one was 7 weeks pre-term and I just didn't want him undergoing being stuck, poked, prodded, anything and my fight with Dad delayed his coming home for 2 days.

I wanted him home more than anything at the time, so I relented. I didn't want the younger 2 done either, and I cried along with them when they were brought back to me immediately after it was done, but Dad thought that everyone should 'look alike'.

I've noticed throughout the years that my offspring seem rather fond of their penises', and I have my clitoris and labia intact, so I suppose we're making it just fine.

[jobycom]

47. Ed Zachary. nt

[defendandprotect]

219. Any kind of circumcision is "grotesque" -- destruction and anti-the interests of

the baby boy -- or the young female --

[Crunchy Frog]

270. There are forms of FGM that are far less severe than what is done to little boys

in this country. This is an example, http://aandes.blogspot.com/2010/04/circumcision.html

[Forkboy]

27. How long, oh Lord?

[demmiblue]

36. C'mon dude... everyone wants to get an epic thread under their belt.

Oh shite, wrong choice of words.

:hide:

[NoPasaran]

102. Not long

For the arc of DU is long, but it bends towards locking.

[dionysus]

225. man, i was wrong... no way that other thread could beat a circumcision thread!

:rofl:

[BoneDaddy]

206. Dont you know about DU already

Women can do no wrong, men always are in the wrong. That which is feminine is superior in all aspects to the masculine.

[Raster]

6. You could have not responded.

[Forkboy]

22. Likewise.

[Raster]

29. Oh, wait... let me find my NTSA graphic.

[Forkboy]

43. You could have just not responded, as a wise man once said.

No really, why did you just do something you're complaining about me doing? If I could have ignored it, couldn't you have done the same when you saw my comment? What drove you to reply, and why is it ok for you to comment but I was wrong to?

[Raster]

46. Have a nice day!

[Forkboy]

51. I was. It met with your disapproval.

Make up your mind.

[Donnachaidh]

10. thank you!

that dead horse smell is difficult to get out of the drapes....

[defendandprotect]

217. As long as we continue to brutalize boys with circumcision, guess you'll have to suffer hearing

about it -- !!

How painful for you!!

[Radical Activist]

331. First, I can't believe it reached over 300 comments.

Second, I can't believe I didn't see it until now! Dammit!

[Brickbat]

7. I'm going to go make out with the "hide thread" function here.

If you need it, you'll know where to find us.

[Vickers]

8. Trust me, there are more *ahem* entertaining videos out there. n/t

[pipi_k]

11. Wow...something else for me to feel guilty about

It's not bad enough I have lots of regrets anyway about the way I raised my kids.

I was 17 when my son was born almost exactly 40 years ago and when asked if I wanted him circumcised, I said "yes" not knowing much because I was just a kid.

Now I have to go through the rest of my life feeling like shit because he was literally "tortured".

Thanks.

[potassiumnitrate]

14. At least you admit the mistake?

At the very least you should admit that it was wrong.

[pipi_k]

24. I don't admit anything

Number one, my son doesn't remember being circumcised. He's never said he was traumatized...just a little amazed and curious when he discovered that SOME of his friends hadn't been.

And, two, just because you think it's wrong, that doesn't mean it IS wrong.

[potassiumnitrate]

33. Your son had every right to keep his foreskin

You took that away from him without his consent.

Wrong, any way you look at it.

[pipi_k]

42. Fine. He can sue me in small claims court. n/t

[jobycom]

58. Did you say Sue?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M89c3hWx3RQ

[pipi_k]

63. Uh, oh...the doctor's hand slipped?

:evilgrin:

snicker

[jobycom]

66. Johnny Cash wadn't no doctor.

:shrug: Country singer, i'm pretty sure.

[pipi_k]

74. No, but he sang about a boy named Sue

that's why I asked if maybe the doctor's hand slipped...


don't mind me...warped sense of humor...

[jobycom]

82. Hang on... pant pant pant... Okay...

I think I caught up now. Sorry, bit slow on that one, wasn't I? :)

[pipi_k]

86. It's OK...sometimes even I don't understand my humor...

:7

[Swamp Rat]

71. Did you say Sue?

Peggy Sue? :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku5UeUT7yIQ

[jobycom]

81. Did you say Sue?

Runaround Sue (you knew it was coming). :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c49klxPex-k

We've wandered a little off the whole "Kids who should be pissed at their dads for stuff they did while the kids were babies," but hey, that Buddy Holly clip was a nice diversion from this meaty thread. :thumbsup:

[pipi_k]

89. "Meaty thread"....

bwahahahahaha


:rofl:

[jobycom]

92. My prose a little... purple... for your taste?

[pipi_k]

95. 'Fraid so...it's bringing all my issues to a head....

[jobycom]

101. Maybe you need a shrink.

:shrug:

[pipi_k]

118. I had one...his name was Nick Balls... quite the character...a real cut-up

[jobycom]

141. If you ask me, he sounds like a hack.

[pipi_k]

148. Yep, he was...with the personality of a prune...

[Swamp Rat]

99. Did you say Souix?

You made me dig for this one. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_Ax_rYeD5A&feature=related

[jobycom]

106. Sweet Sue, that must have been hard to find!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th4d00E_u1o

(So was this)

[Swamp Rat]

117. Bill Haley is hard to top

Del Shannon is the best I could do. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnfR4lJXdCo

[jobycom]

135. Did someone say Sue-susudio?

Shwew, this is getting hard! Del Shannon was good!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Ehh6XuOnY&feature=fvsr

[Swamp Rat]

150. I'll Sue Ya

Whew!! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xX5npEROKE

[AnArmyVeteran]

298. Now it's a 'small' claims case but before the amputation omit would have been a much 'larger' case.

Poor male babies. If this was happening to females there would be mass demonstrations. Oh the double standards!

[Hekate]

339. No comparison.

[Hekate]

338. pipi_k, I think your post wins Best in Thread. My son has never expressed an opinion, but now...

... I know just what to tell him if he ever lets me know he's disgruntled after 32 years: Sue me in Small Claims Court! :rofl:

Good gods I hate these threads. All the men on all 3 sides of my son's family tree are circumcised. On my side and that of his bio-dad (my ex) it was 20th Century American Hygiene at work. On my husband's side -- well it's about 4,000 years of Jewish practice.

I never in my life heard of any man complaining about it until I came to DU and discovered that in some men's psyches this is a literal castration and/or equivalent to a pre-pubescent African tribal girl having her clitoris and labia cut off with a rusty razor and no anesthesia. Freud would have a field day.

Hekate

[HughMoran]

137. Oh. Dear. god.

This gets weirder by the minute

[jobycom]

143. Oh, keep reading.

It's just getting warm.

[HughMoran]

149. I feel like I've fallen into the rabbit hole

Weird.

[boppers]

195. ....er...

Welcome to DU?

:evilgrin:

[Renew Deal]

40. It's not about you feeling guilty

There's always been bad advice given to good people. It's about educating future parents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8h0SkPcs2U

[pipi_k]

56. Well there are better ways to do it than to call it "torture"

which may "educate" future parents...although I imagine a lot of them will probably say MYOB anyway...

But it also is an awfully shitty thing to say when there are lots of us who DID do it already.

We "tortured" our babies?


Really, really shitty

[Renew Deal]

65. Steep Drop Seen in Circumcisions in U.S.

Thankfully people are learning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=91246&mesg_id=91246

I don't think circumcision is torture, though I understand why others would think that. No one is calling you a bad parent. It's not your fault.

[defendandprotect]

223. Trust that will continue as people more often challenge freakish religious dictates ...!!

And come to understand this isn't medicine -- it's an attack on a young

boys sexuality!

[Akoto]

70. Don't let them make you feel guilty.

Who the hell are these people, that they feel they can make such accusations? Do they know you, or your son? Demanding that you admit your "wrongness" for consenting to a very common practice - especially 40 years ago - goes too far.

The fact that your kid is now well into adulthood shows that he was cared for, clothed, fed, sheltered. I think that pretty well counters any accusations that he was tortured, or that he suffered consequences from the procedure.

[potassiumnitrate]

76. Fuck that shit

There's a lot of stuff in this world that's common practice. FEMALE circumcision is common practice in many parts of the world. Everyone agrees that's wrong for some reason, but not when it applies to boys?

Fuck that. Wrong is wrong.

[HughMoran]

138. Comparing male circumcision to female circumcision is just bizarre

I like my skinless wiener - leave me alone.

[Codeine]

146. I was just told guys like us are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

DU is a strange ol' place some days.

[Crunchy Frog]

271. It depends on the type. This type is far less severe than the male version.

http://aandes.blogspot.com/2010/04/circumcision.html

[jobycom]

85. That's a thumbs up for you.

:thumbsup: Well said.

[potassiumnitrate]

12. +1

Circumcision is wrong, period. There is no valid reason. I don't care what religion says it's OK.

[TexasObserver]

13. Who would unrecommend THIS thread?!

Me.

I was kidding earlier when I said "but we need a circumcision thread."

[Swamp Rat]

26. Jewish people?

I did.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swamp Rat]

32. Anti-semite

I knew y'all would show up.

[potassiumnitrate]

35. Not even close

I have no problem with the rest of it. Just the circumcision part.

[Swamp Rat]

50. You are already stuck to the fly paper.

Maybe you can chew off one of your six legs.

[demmiblue]

62. You REALLY need to do a search on this one!

:rofl:

[Swamp Rat]

75. I've had my eye on this one for a while now.

;)

[JohnnyLib2]

105. Uh-oh.

"Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em."

[jobycom]

112. I think two things.

One, you ought to change that title before it's too late.

Two, you ought to look up what female circumcision really is. It's much closer to castration than circumcision.

"Several dictionaries, including medical dictionaries, define the word circumcision as applicable to some procedures performed on females.<19><20><21> Cook states that historically, the term female circumcision was used, but that "this procedure in whatever form it is practiced is not at all analogous to male circumcision and so the term 'female circumcision' gave way to the term 'female genital mutilation'"<22> Shell-Duncan states that the term female circumcision is a euphemism for a variety of procedures for altering the female genitalia.<23> Toubia argued, in 1995, that the term female circumcision "implies a fallacious analogy to non-mutilating male circumcision, in which the foreskin is cut off from the tip of the penis without damaging the organ itself.""

[potassiumnitrate]

115. That's not my POINT

Circumcision is wrong, period. It doesn't matter that a major religion says it's ok. It's not. There's lots of other stuff that many religions say are ok but are not ok. But this thread is about circumcision.

[jobycom]

120. Well then STOP SAYING IT.

You've made that "Female Circumcision" comparison a few times. It's not an apt comparison. There's a lot of stuff that many religions say is okay that actually is okay, so just saying "You'd do it for Randolph Scott's religion" doesn't mean anything. If you are against circumcision, then try to communicate your point without insulting Jews, other religions, parents whose kids have had circumcisions, and the many victims of female genital mutilation, and you might get a bit further, and get a lot less friction.

[Swamp Rat]

128. Fortunately, potassiumnitrate's anti-Jew comment was deleted

I wasn't the one who alerted on that post, but thank you Mods.

[potassiumnitrate]

144. It wasn't anti Jew and you damn well know it

[Codeine]

147. I thought it was. Mods thought it was.

Looks like a duck, etc.

[Swamp Rat]

151. Good luck

:hi:

[TexasObserver]

158. I was being sarcastic, as my "Me" statement indicated.

I don't consider foreskin to be a gnawing issue.

[jobycom]

17. You should watch videos of pigs being turned into bacon.

You'll never touch meat again.

Yeah, a shameless attempt to hijack one flame bait topic with another. :P

[TheCowsCameHome]

19. Locking.

I mean IBTL. Sorry.

[Forkboy]

31. Why do you diminish the mutilation of pigs?

Fuck it, I'm going all in with this thread. :evilgrin:

[Swamp Rat]

37. Me too

Fly paper foe anti-semites.

[jobycom]

44. Not me. I want to save the pigs.

Love pigs, not bacon!!

I'm all in. :smoke:

[Renew Deal]

45. Fine. Bring it!

[defendandprotect]

224. That's another reason to stop ALL violence ... whether vs humans or animal-life ...!!!

[stuntcat]

239. for real though!

:)

[Crunchy Frog]

307. I'm glad I didn't decide to treat my sons like domesticated livestock.

:)

[Warren Stupidity]

28. was it the director's cut?

p.s. we have had this discussion a few times before.

[Raster]

34. Snap! Yes, this discussion has been around the block more than once...

...and if a member:rofl: wants to revisit it yet again...

[JohnnyLib2]

38. At last, a thread that will settle this discussion!

:sarcasm:

[Raster]

41. Cut it out!

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

53. Do you also suggest mastectomies for all women?

Is that your way of ending breast cancer?

[potassiumnitrate]

59. Doesn't make it right

For fuck's sake.

[Codeine]

49. They do forget. I don't remember it at all.

Furthermore, my weenie is just fine, has more than enough sensitivity, and it doesn't gross out those ladies who dislike uncut schlongs.

[CBR]

57. Yeah. My husband just told me he doesn't remember the torture

either.

[foxfeet]

77. Yes, yes, your weenie's fine.

It's something else about you that sends the ladies running and screaming into the night.:P

[Codeine]

93. LOL!

My reputation precedes me, I see. :rofl:

[stray cat]

54. Why did you decide that was your goal for the night?

Strange thing to want to view - when are you going to watch a partial birth abortion, a hysterectomy and a visectomy to round off your viewing pleasure

[Renew Deal]

69. The other three procedures are sometimes necessary

And the decisions are made about adults about themselves.

[demmiblue]

60. A poll is in order. n/t

[TheCowsCameHome]

64. I vote yes, now what is the question?

[demmiblue]

90. Will TheCowsCameHome give demmiblue a million dollars?

Only TheCowsCameHome is legally obligated to respond to this post as it has become a legal written document in the affirmative.

Since you already voted 'yes', you can forward the amount of $1,000,000 via paypal.

Thank you for participating!


:hi:

[TheCowsCameHome]

161. Whew! I thought it was going to be something I couldn't afford this week.

What a relief............Thanks for having so much compassion.
:toast:

[demmiblue]

170. Meh....

I'll take a beer toast.

:toast:

(you owe me)

[Codeine]

67. On further consideration,

[pipi_k]

78. Yep, I can see your point

[PBS Poll-435]

116. Not unless you had the procedure...

:hide:

[pipi_k]

122. I always thought they were pointier before the procedure...

:+

[Odin2005]

83. K&R

[Warpy]

84. Now find a film of a knee replacement or coronary bypass operation

to put it into a little better perspective.

Yes, the kids scream. They also scream when they're hungry or have a loaded diaper or need to fart. Sometimes they also scream for no reason, as every frustrated new parent finds out. It doesn't mean they're being tortured.

[Renew Deal]

88. Knee replacement and bypass are necessary surgeries chosen by adults for themselves.

They are not unnecessary involuntary mutilation of children.

[Warpy]

96. And circumcision is a minor cosmetic procedure chosen by parents

for their newborn infants and absolutely none of your business.

Butt out.

[HughBeaumont]

87. I love my non-turnip-bulb-looking circumcised penis.

So does my wife.

Thank you parents, for cutting that unnecessary weird shit off.

Being upset with my parents about a circumcision rates about 0.00000000000000000000000000000000001 points on my Things To Get Mad About meter. This is the worlds most microscopic tear being shed for my chopped foreskin.

I'm sorry, but this whole "nice sensitive, 'be mindful of the eggshells and bear traps', 'I sure hope everyone likes me' guy" thing . . . fuck it, I'm just not doing it anymore. CHOPPED WEINERS FOR EVERYONE YEAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

:party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party:

[jobycom]

91. I'm amazed we've had no "This thread is useless without pictures" posts.

Do NOT consider this to be one of those. :scared:

[HughBeaumont]

104. Eh, I've seen the finished result for about 39 years now.

Anyone wants to post photos . . . well . . . it's up to them. :)

[jobycom]

113. Me too, but I'm only interested in seeing MY finished results.

ifunowadahmene.

[Fumesucker]

94. Yes, torture you cannot remember is fine..

SASQ

[pipi_k]

110. Well, in that case...

Since regular labor and vaginal birth are so violent, perhaps we should force all women to deliver their babies by C-section...

Yes, birth is inevitable if one is a fetus, but now that we can ensure safer C-sections, why subject the poor wee ones to all that torture, trauma, and possibly a misshapen head the rest of his life?

Women who choose natural vaginal birth are SELFISH!!!! The only acceptable birth is one that won't torture and traumatize the baby!!!

[Fumesucker]

123. Natural birth is equivalent to forced mutilation?

I may have fallen off the Turnip Truck but it wasn't *yesterday*.

[pipi_k]

127. We're talking about torture, number one...

the OP made a big deal about the "torture", in fact.

I don't know of any circumcised man who felt...or feels...that he was "mutilated".

If some do feel that way, then that's their issue.

But I've never heard a guy say he felt that way. In fact, an ex boyfriend years and years and years ago...at the age of 19...had a circumcision. Yes, it was his choice...but he didn't do it hoping to feel "mutilated".

[Fumesucker]

132. Mutilation has a specific definition..

Well, three actually and possibly more.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mutilate

mu·ti·late (mytl-t)
tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates
1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1.
3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.

You mutilate a book when you tear out a page even though the book feels no pain and has no opinion about it.

Edited to fix bolding error.

[Codeine]

139. I would argue that I have not been made imperfect,

but rather improved by dint of the snip.

[Fumesucker]

142. Stockholm Syndrome, eh?

It's quite common and nothing to be ashamed of, a natural human reaction in fact.

[Dorian Gray]

337. Stockholm Syndrome?

Oh COME ON!

This is devolving into the ridiculous.

[pipi_k]

169. So a circumcised penis is an "imperfect" penis?

Oooookay...

if you say so...

[Fumesucker]

173. So a circumcised penis is a "perfect" penis?

Oooookay...

If you say so...

:hi:

[pipi_k]

204. No, actually I think they're all pretty stupid looking, snipped or not. n/t

[Touchdown]

166. You just met one.

I resent it being done.

But... I'm staying out of this thread.

[pipi_k]

171. Well, for anyone who resents it being done...

There are guys out there whose willies don't even work.

I'll bet they'd give a couple of years off their lives to have willies that work even if they are "mutilated".


I'd even bet they don't care if they can't sling said willies over their shoulders while they're in the shower.


Well, I'm sure we all know the saying...

"I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet"

:shrug:

[Occulus]

180. So, basically, you're saying "tough shit" and "be glad it works at all"?

Isn't that the same attitude the men performing female genital mutilation have toward the women they do it to?

[pipi_k]

201. Bad comparison

I don't know if you've ever seen the results of FGM, but in most cases, NOTHING is left to work.


We're not talking here about complete and total removal of a man's organ. Just a piece of it.


And yeah... men who have their organs that are still working...even if they're circumcised...they really don't appreciate how fortunate they are.

[Occulus]

240. Wow. That took a lot of gall.

From reading your posts, not just on this thread, but on others as well, I think I've decided you're just not worth a polite response. I'm putting you on ignore now. I'm dead certain my DU experience will be far, far better as a result.

You (and all those here with preachy, self-sanctimonious attitudes like yours) are the largest part of what is wrong with this forum. I mean that sincerely. You are off the fucking hook.

[pipi_k]

249. Not that you'll see it, but

do what you have to.


I'll return the favor, not because we have a history of nastiness toward each other, but because I don't want to waste MY time either, communicating with someone who doesn't care for my opinion.

[Touchdown]

212. Do you have all of the genitals you were born with?

If so, then you have no place to lecture me on how I should feel.

[pipi_k]

248. Hey, feel however you want...

Just remember that there are men out there whose equipment doesn't even work.

Sit there in self pity if that floats your boat.


:shrug:

[Touchdown]

252. Answer my question.

Are you speaking from a perspective as a person who had her genitals removed, or as a self appointed arbiter of what is allowable to be angry about?

[pipi_k]

263. Not even a valid question

If you've been circumcised, you haven't had your genitals "removed".

Your equipment is still all there, and, presumably, operational.

Minus one tiny little hunk of flesh.



But, like I said...be pissed off.

Just don't be surprised when people with real tragedy in their lives don't give a rat's ass about your little hunk of flesh, and that they'll probably roll their eyes in contempt or disgust over the whole drama.

If the worst thing that ever befalls you in this life is that you have the luxury of feeling grief over a foreskin, then count yourself very lucky.

[Name removed]

264. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchtv]

172. same here

but not involved

[Occulus]

179. The one question you seem to not be asking yourself is

whether there are guys out there who want it back.

I'm not going to say it's the same as female circumcision. I'm not going to say it's torture. I am going to say that it's a practice that should be left up to the individual.

And yeah, I do resent having it done to me. I would rather it had been my decision.

[pipi_k]

203. Well, I don't know if I already posted about this somewhere else here, but...

Years and years ago I had a boyfriend whose parents didn't circumcise him as a newborn.

So, at the age of 19, he decided to have it done.

His verdict was that he wished his parents had made the decision for him when he was a baby so he didn't have to do it when he was older.


In any case, I found an article written by a guy who was not circumcised as a baby, and who decided to have it done as a young man.

So he knows what it felt like before, and after.

He apparently has no regrets about having it done.


http://www.circinfo.com/an_account.html


My ex boyfriend resented his parents for not having him snipped. You resent your parents because they did have you snipped.


so, one of the most thankless jobs in the world has to be that of a parent.

Seems like no matter what decision they try to make, it's never quite the "right" one.

[Touchdown]

209. That website...

Is pro circumcision propaganda from a circumcision fetishist who wants the world to have compulsory circumcisions. Not a credible source.

Sorry. Try again.

And... I answered your statement about not knowing any men who resent being circumcised. I didn't ask for or give on shit about what you said as a retort. I answered you, and proved you had no claim. At least be an adult and accept it.

[Occulus]

241. That one has a pattern of this sort of behavior

Search its history and you'll find it does this on a pretty much regular basis.

[pipi_k]

246. And you need a lesson in manners, my little friend

I'm not an "it".

Do not refer to me in such a way again.

[Touchdown]

250. You must be.

After all, your lectures on how We should appreciate that we still function, so it just dandy to be a sadist pedophile and take a knife to a baby's genitals... You must have had your female parts removed, which may make you an it.

Then again, you should follow your own advice, and get a sense of humor.

[pipi_k]

256. "Sadist pedophile mutilating a baby's genitals"

Love the hyperbole there.

:eyes:


The truth hurts, doesn't it, when it blows the Drama Queen bullshit right out of the water.

So much suffering in the world...

But...What are (some) men whining about?

A lousy little hunk of flesh whose absence nor presence makes a huge bit of difference in the overall function in the organ from which it came.


Forgive me for not being more sympathetic, OK?

Little kids with arms and legs blown off.

Little five-year old Youssif, gasoline thrown on him by masked men and set on fire, his face melted and maimed.


And here are grown men having temper tantrums over their foreskins.


Yeah...you're right. I guess one has to be a "man" to understand that logic.

[Touchdown]

257. So as long as gasoline isn't thrown on a baby in the delivery room, anything goes, right?

And we wouldnt be so concerned with our dicks if you fetishists didn't attack them with knives.

If circumcision was cutting off the eyelidd, then we would complain about our eyes, but you take your knives to our dicks, then blame us for it for not appreciating your sense of style in dick fashion.

[pipi_k]

313. As I said before....

If little Johnny, circumcised soon after birth, had never seen the pee pees of his little friends and noticed that they had something he didn't, little Johnny wouldn't know he's supposed to stomp his feet and blame his parents and everyone else in the world for taking away something he would never even know he lacked.


How sad for little Johnny. He was completely happy with the stick pony his parents got him for his birthday until he saw his friend Billy's REAL horse. Then he wanted one too.



PS...and to accuse me of being one of "you fetishists"...shame shame...

What's so ironic about this is that when my grandson was born six years ago I actually did suggest to my daughter and her husband that they NOT circumcise him, mainly because he was so small and weak when he was born. They...actually my son-in-law...decided to have it done anyway.

Which was neither here nor there for me as far as being able to demand they do anything. I wasn't the parent.


But I'll tell you what...after seeing the histrionics...the drama queen bullshit...the "torture" and the "mutilation" and "sadistic pedophiles" and "fetishists with knives" being thrown around in this thread, all that's done is make me even more convinced that I'm not the one with the problem here.

You see what hysterics does? It turns people away from your "cause".

[Touchdown]

325. Yeah yeah yeah... As you say. You say uneducated shit.

You are done.

[pipi_k]

245. You didn't get it, did you?

Whether he's for or against circumcision, the point here is that it's a whole lot more bother to do it when you're older...that is, if one's parents leave the decision up to the boy to make.

And the other point, which I've already made...


People are always bitching and complaining about the decisions their parents either did, or didn't, make for them.

Being a parent is a thankless job, made even more thankless by the childish whining of guys who either resent their parents for having them snipped, or resent them for NOT having them snipped.

With so much misery in the world, we would think that wouldn't even be an issue, but apparently some guys just cannot, nor will they ever, be able to see beyond their own dicks.


Also...I don't usually judge a link based on whether it's "pro" or "anti" whatever message I'm trying to get across. But, using your logic, the only "acceptable" message would have been from an anti-circumcision guy who decided to have it done. Which doesn't even make sense. How many anti circumcision men are even going to THINK about having it done?

sigh... :eyes:

[Touchdown]

251. Actually you didn't get it.

It should be a lot harder to do when your older, because it shouldn't be done at all. It shield be a major decision to permanently amputate a biddy part because your shallow girlfriend calls it a calamari.

The site has ni credibility, and it has proven lies on it. It has no credibility.

Funny you mention about "so much misery in the world, that this wouldn't even be an issue." Yes, it seems to be no big deal to you, just a snip( insulting). But it's always that way... Unitil somebody suggests it should not be done. Then It's the most important thing in the world, and it becomes the cure for AIDS and will stop nuclear war.

The credible sources on this subject should be actual doctors and especially urologists. Circinfo has neither.

[pipi_k]

258. Your argument that it SHOULD be a lot harder

when one is older because it SHOULDN'T be done at all doesn't cut it.


Lots of things are more difficult when people get older.


That doesn't mean they shouldn't be done at all.



And really, I don't care if people want to suggest that something not be done, although why it's any of their business is beyond me.

But when people jump in to compare it to "torture" and "mutilation", that's when it crosses the line into pure stupidity.


All I can say is, quite a number of individuals lack a sense of perspective. When a five minute procedure done at the behest of parents who believe in their hearts they're doing the right thing is equated with horrendous torture and mutilation, there is something seriously wrong here.

Seriously.

Vile and disgusting.

[Touchdown]

261. That is exactly what I am saying.

Should not be fucking done at all. It cures nothing, it isn't cleaner, it isn't prettier, and function/ sensation is lost. It's ancient tribal barbarism that should be as obsolete as trepanning.

What the parents believe is good for their child is irrelevant. It's barbarism. Barbarism sold to the public as medicine is still barbarism... and quackery.

[pipi_k]

302. That it's "barbaric" is your opinion

Just as many people feel it isn't barbaric.

Parents have the right to do whatever they feel is right for their children, whether you agree with them or not.

[defendandprotect]

226. Trust that's missing a ....

:sarcasm: sign --

Natural childbirth is perhaps so "violent" these days because midwifery has changed

hands from females to males --

We should also note how much more $$ is made by hospitals and surgeons -- which all OBGYN's are --

when circumstances move from natural child birth to C-section!!

More and more C-sections are being pushed on pregnant women -- and, sadly, more and more young

women are seeking them for "convenience" -- !!

And perhaps many other reasons for trauma in childbirth -- ?

Might also have to do with loss of the many plants/drugs which were used by women before

they were destroyed by patriarchy.

[pipi_k]

247. Yes, you're right...

the :sarcasm: was missing there....

[elocs]

98. So is the message I'm getting here is that torture or mutilation is ok depending on the degree?

So because male circumcision of baby boys is not as bad as female genital mutilation, then there is nothing wrong with that? If that's true then there's something wrong with the thinking of a lot of people here.

[jobycom]

167. No one can control the message you are getting, but the one that is being given is

first, that not everyone considers this torture, second that most of us, regardless of our views, are tired of circumcision threads and refuse to take them seriously, and third, if you can even mention circumcision and female genital mutilation in the same breath, except to explain how they are not even similar, then you don't understand one or the other. It's not a question of degree. They are completely different procedures with completely different results. FGM is more like castration than circumcision, and is performed only to destroy a woman's desire for sex so that she may be a better breed of cattle for her family.

[elocs]

175. One way they are the same is that they are done to the unwilling who haven't given consent.

That is 100% true of baby boys. Clearly they both cause pain and are largely difficult to reverse and both involve the genitals. Also, clearly it is a difference in the degree of pain.

The message I get is that somehow circumcision of baby boys is acceptable because it is not as bad or the same as FGM.
Spin it however you like.

There are plenty of threads here at DU that I am sick of as well, but somehow I have survived and not tried to shut them down. I didn't realize that some want to place limits as to what may be discussed or how often. Doesn't sound very Democratic to me.

[Touchdown]

316. Not everybody considers second hand smoke to be harmful either.

Sometimes, wrong is wrong. What people "feel" is irrelevant.

And there are 4 degrees of FGM. Only one of which is a full clitorectomy, and only 1 removes more nerves and functions than male foreskin amputation.Study the subject before you lecture others in what is appropriate.

[Steely_Dan]

107. Please...

You know, this is where the RW is sometimes right about those of us on the Left. We tend to be so elitist.

In addition...this is what you choose to complain about. Our country is going down the pooper and you want to talk about a procedure which is questionable at best. We all have our priorities.

"Obama promised to eliminate circumcision in his speeches"

"No he did not." "You just thought you heard him say that."

"Yeah, he's taking the RW position on this...negotiating from a position of weakness,"

"You just want your pony circumcised."

-P

[Ernesto]

109. Was there a "doggy bag"?............ nt

[pipi_k]

124. Oh no!!!!! I swear it looked just like calamari!!!!!!!!

:cry:

[Touchdown]

211. With that one remark...

All of you arguments up thread have been rendered moot.

[pipi_k]

244. I pity the humor-impaired...

really, I do.



But I'll tell you what...go down a little way in this thread and read up on a link I posted about what happened to a kid who was truly tortured, probably for all four years of his poor, short life.

There are some here who are attempting to call circumcision "torture".


the taking of a foreskin from a baby who won't remember it and who will live through it is not even close to being torture when it's compared to what little Lattie McGee suffered before he died.


That trumps every other argument in this thread for calling it "torture" and "mutilation". Every. single. one.


The only other argument to be made is that people feel their parents should have left the decision up to them.

Some end up resenting their parents for having had it done. Oh...but OTOH, there are guys whose parents didn't have it done, who want it done, and who have it done, and it's a lot worse when you're older, and THEY resent their parents too. Parents try their best to do what they think is right, but there's always the ungrateful little brat (even adult ones) who piss and moan about what his or her parents did, or didn't, do.

People are suffering horrible things in this world, but that's all nothing compared to some whiny-assed guy's goddamned foreskin.

Good lord, where is the stinking perspective anymore...


So, in that light, yes...I will laugh at a hunk of flesh that looks like calamari. Deal with it.

[Touchdown]

254. Yeah, taking a knife to a baby is so fucking hilarious

I get in the floor laughing ever time I watch that video. :eyes:

[pipi_k]

292. Hey, how come nobody is going after the guy who made the first

comment about the doggy bag?


Isn't that as unfunny as what I wrote, or is it just because nobody wants to actually challenge a buddy or someone they like, or what...


I would hate to think there's any...hypocrisy...or anything floating around here...


PS...and please, the hand wringing dramatics are getting a little old. Nobody made fun of taking a knife to a baby.

I just think it's hilarious, from a culinary point of view, that calamari and foreskins look pretty much the same.

[Touchdown]

295. Those others are pretty calloused.

You are just exceedingly vile in your disdain for humanity and sovereign rights to our own bodies, and you are unapologetic about it.

The rest are aware of how uncomfortable this makes them.

[pipi_k]

299. I am talking about ONE person who made a joke about

the doggy bag.

The one I replied to.

His joke about the doggy bag should have elicited the same disgust, but it didn't.



Also, you are mistaken if you think I have "disdain" for the sovereign rights people have over their own bodies.

People just don't like to face the truth of the matter, which is that parents do what they believe is right for their children, whether it involves having their sons circumcised, or not. If someone is running around 20, 30, 40 or more years later still feeling angry or resentful for what his parents did all those years ago, then I would say there's a HUGE problem and it probably won't get fixed without serious therapy.


What is absolutely vile is the constant whining men are doing about the loss of something that, if they never saw an uncircumcised male organ, they would never even know they were missing.


But at some point they do see an uncircumcised organ, and all of a sudden it's a huge personal tragedy.

No sense of perspective or priority.

Maybe that is something that comes with age and experience.

When I see images of dead or dying babies...parents holding limp and bloody children in their arms, victims of starvation or war...I'm real sorry, dearie, but I just can't find it in my heart to feel much sorrow for someone's damned foreskin.

Ask a man whose child committed suicide, for example, if he would give a rat's ass about his foreskin. Or, better yet, go up to him and whine about how you were "tortured and mutilated" as an infant. Tell him how much it fucked up your life.

Don't be surprised if he punches you in the face.


anyway, sorry...I save feeling sympathy for people who have suffered real tragedies in their lives, not for the loss of a hunk of flesh a couple of whiners wouldn't even miss if they hadn't seen what the other boys in gym class had.

Callous?

Then so be it.

[Name removed]

305. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PBS Poll-435]

114. Always love a good Slasher Film

I mean thread.

[alphafemale]

125. IBTL!

:popcorn:

[johnroshan]

126. "Minor cosmetic operation" my ass..

I want to see an uncircumcised male willingly subject his penis to that "minor cosmetic operation" without anesthetics.

Its incredible how many people don't care if the baby doesn't remember it! It doesn't matter whether the baby remembers it or not. Its medically unnecessary and it causes horrible pain (those without a penis are incapable of even imagining it). That deems it torture.

I find the stifling of controversial topics in DU is shameful and reflective of our own community. It would be better if members could actually provide meaningful comments or opinions or just refrain from posting if they feel the topic is not of interest.

[xchrom]

129. I like dicks with the drapes - I like dicks without them.

I like dicks.

Well except dick cheney - him they
Should've circumcised much, much higher up.

[Swamp Rat]

133. LOL!!

:D

[xchrom]

156. Lol! Oh SHIT! Lol! Nt

[Raster]

145. Why do attorneys wear their ties tied so tightly around their necks?

So their foreskins won't flap up in their faces.

[Canuckistanian]

130. Has circumcision ever been discussed on DU before?

I can't remember.

For the record, I'm for it - with strict government regulation.

[likesmountains 52]

131. If anyone cares, I sometimes assist with this procedure. The baby gets a penile

block, some tylenol and a pacifier with a sweet sucrose solution to suck on...all to minimize the pain of the procedure. Most of the babies don't make a sound or even flinch during the circumcision and for some docs it only takes 5 minutes. I'm not weighing in on if I agree with it or not....but it is not like the video shows (at least where I work and it's not exactly a facility on the cutting edge of new ways to do things.) No pun intended!

[Swamp Rat]

140. Thank you.

I imagined the video in the OP is something akin to horrifically dramatized abortions, the kind shown to children at Sunday school by anti-choice propagandists.

[Maru Kitteh]

154. As it turns out we were only fooling ourselves with the whole sugar/pain thing. Doesn't work.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/PainManagement/PainManagement/22005

What sickens me is the way fellow nurses often speak of the little boys who endure this procedure - dividing them up into "good" babies and "naughty" or "bad" ones.

[likesmountains 52]

176. I've not ever been around such talk of good/bad boys..and even if the sugar isn't

all it's been cracked up to be...the penile block works.

[Touchdown]

266. Ahem...

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2010/09/03/pain-newborn-sugar-uk.html

[Crunchy Frog]

273. My OB did them in his office and I was around for a few of them.

I heard a nurse reassuring one sobbing mother "oh, he'll get a shot of lidocaine so he won't feel anything". I also was waiting in an exam room while one was actually being done and could hear prolonged and intense screaming.

I'm glad that your facility takes care to ensure effective pain control. It is not universal by a long shot.

[depakid]

155. The OP reminds me of Catholics with their abortion pictures...

just as irrational.

And not that different than the anti-vacaccination people.

[defendandprotect]

187. Adult females have the right to make a decision about abortion . . ..

we don't have the right to torture newborn males in this way --

These two issues have nothing in common -- except that both the anti-abortion movement

and the pro-circumcision movement are both based in organized patriarchal religious beliefs!!

[miscsoc]

229. the kids being circumcised are people

foetuses are not. and besides, default circumcision is medically pointless except in rare cases, whereas abortion is often medically justified or necessary.

[defendandprotect]

306. True --

:)

[Touchdown]

157. I'm staying out of this one.

everybody here knows what I think about this, and just as many are sick of my opinions.

:hi:

[qb]

159. Painless or not, elective surgery should be the choice of the individual.

No one else.
That means for infants, leave them intact unless there is a medically urgent need to do otherwise.
I don't understand why this is still so controversial.

[pipi_k]

168. So that includes ALL elective surgery, right?

Like a kid with a birth defect should be left to suffer (as in teasing and mockery from peers and maybe even disgust from adults) until it's old enough to legally consent to (elective) surgery?


A kid with a cleft palate, for instance, that doesn't interfere with his quality of life...fixing it would be elective surgery.

Let him deal with it until he can decide on his own?

[defendandprotect]

189. Why would you question "cleft palate"? And, certainly the child would

be provided anesthesia -- that's not the case with circumcision --

there is no POSITIVE benefit connected to circumcision -- and it is generally

done without pain relief!!

[pipi_k]

198. The subject you brought up was "elective surgery"

If a surgery isn't vital to survival or even "quality of life", then it's elective.

You said that painful or not, elective surgery should not be done unless the person can consent to it.


So I'm asking if all elective surgeries should be put off until the child is old enough to legally consent.

[Crunchy Frog]

274. Elective surgery on healthy, anatomically normal body parts.

[pipi_k]

288. No, that wasn't the statement.

the statement was "elective surgery".

A person can't make a statement then change the parameters to suit his argument.

[Hawkeye-X]

160. From my mohel's observation - fascinating stuff

Jewish newborns at 8 days or less will not actually feel the circumcision itself -- according to the mohel - their nerve endings aren't quite developed and it's ideal to do it 8 days or less - traditionally we use the 8 days.

My son's bris milah wasn't too terrible, and yes, he cried, but not because of the pain, but the sudden cold he felt while he was being circumcised. His healing time was actually 3 days, neosporin was definetely recommended and liberally used, and the mohel came to visit to check on him to make sure it was healing properly - now that's first class.

I know my rabbi's son was very sick as soon as he was born. He didn't have the bris until he was more than 30 days old (jaundice is the exception to the rule of bris - if he's too yellow, then no bris can be performed until the yellowing is gone. Now, he's my son's best friend! (They are 3 months apart)

[soleiri]

178. I'm not jewish

But I had a mohel perform the circumcision on my 2nd son.
He didn't cry at all.
Actually, neither the mohel nor my son cried.

[miscsoc]

230. why, may i ask?

[soleiri]

268. It was a recommendation

from another mom at the La Leche League meeting I attended.

[miscsoc]

318. seriously?

why did she recommend it? if there was some medical reason why not just get it done in a hospital?

[soleiri]

323. He was both a Doctor and a Mohel.

[Iggo]

162. OLIVE GARDEN!!!!!!

[TheCowsCameHome]

163. ....troublemaker.

:rofl:

[Iggo]

164. -

:evilgrin:

[msanthrope]

255. BREASTFEEDING CIRCUMCISED BABIES--In the Olive Garden!! Top that!! n/t

[madokie]

174. Hell I was four years old when they took the knife to me

I remember it quite well too. My brother who was 4 years my senior was spared.

Sometimes I wonder if maybe they went a little too far down, if you get my drift

[proteus_lives]

181. There are literally billions who don't consider it torture.

And million of ACTUAL torture victims just rolled their eyes at you.

[Iggo]

183. Ba-da bing!

:fistbump:

[pipi_k]

200. Exactly...and lots of them are

too young to roll their eyes.

Or maybe too brain-damaged, or even dead.


Little babies...kids...who have been slammed against walls...battered...had lit cigarettes held against their skin until they passed out from the pain.

Over and over and over again.


That is torture.


A five minute procedure, even without anesthesia, is not even close to being the "torture" some are trying to say it is...

[johnroshan]

207. "A five minute procedure, even without anesthesia"

I take it if you have an uncircumcised penis, you would willingly subject for the foreskin to be cut off without anesthesia?

The foreskin has a lot of nerve endings and is extremely sensitive. If someone hurts you for less than 5 minutes and in the process removes a part of your body is not tantamount to torture?!

I urge you to take a peek beyond the veil of tradition.

[pipi_k]

208. I'm saying it's beyond disgusting to take a five minute procedure

and call it "torture" when there are hundreds of thousands of victims of real torture, both dead and alive, who know what real torture is. Or was.

Again...I have to post the story of a little boy named Lattie McGee, whose bruised and beaten body bore the marks of real torture.

http://www.postchronicle.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=58&num=132075


To equate circumcision with that is just vile.

[Crunchy Frog]

308. Waterboarding takes less than five minutes.

[pipi_k]

312. And your point is...?

Waterboarding is done with the specific goal of causing fear and/or pain in order to gain information.


Are you suggesting that circumcision is done for the same reason? That people who perform it, parents who consent to it...they are all nothing but a bunch of cold-hearted, blood-thirsty savages who are actively trying to cause babies pain?

[Crunchy Frog]

315. You said it's not torture if it only lasts five minutes.

Maybe we could start interrogating prisoners by cutting their genitals for only five minutes. Then we could get information out of them and it wouldn't constitute torture.

[Touchdown]

265. Actually opposite. Millions

Mostly Americans, middle east, and tribal Africa.

Billions, the rest of the world, largely considers it barbaric.

[proteus_lives]

284. Muslims.

So billions.

"Billions, the rest of the world, largely considers it barbaric."

No, they just don't do it. I doubt they consider it barbaric.

[Touchdown]

289. India, Europe, and Japan all have serious moral problems with it

Although it's become a sexual fetish in Japan, what hasn't? Even then, it isn't done to infants.

It is illegal to do it to infants in Finland, Sweden and Denmark. Europe, which dwarfs the us in population consider us, the USA barbaric for doing it.

[proteus_lives]

297. Just because they don't do it, doesn't mean they consider it barbaric.

"Europe, which dwarfs the us in population consider us, the USA barbaric for doing it."

When did the governments of every European nation and every cultural group issue this statement?

Can you link to it?

[Touchdown]

304. You said people first. Now you want governments

Make up your mind

[proteus_lives]

320. You can't back it up.

I'm not the one who needs to make up his mind.

[Touchdown]

324. Neither can you

We both now it's logistically impossible to poll all 6 Billion humans on their circ opinions, so give it a rest.

[proteus_lives]

326. Will do.

You shouldn't have started if you didn't bring a ball.

[Touchdown]

327. You made the claim first, Pal.

History didn't start with my post.

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joshcryer]

185. Haha, any thread that goes beyond 30-40 posts is.

At least as far as GD/GD: P is concerned.

[JohnnyLib2]

193. The profile shows a tombstone. What the hell??

3 day weekenditis, maybe.

[boppers]

196. DU: 4 chan for the politically motivated.

Bet you can't Tri-Force.

[defendandprotect]

186. One of my greatest regrets is that I left this decision to my husband ....

the impact on a child IMO is life long --

[joshcryer]

188. I hope you don't indicate to your child that he is inferior in some way for having been circumsized.

[defendandprotect]

190. It's not a question of being "inferior" ... it's a question of being tortured ....

My son is an adult now -- and at the first opportunity I could, I educated him on

the anti-circumcision movement by providing him with information.

Can only hope that all Americans wake up from this nightmare --



Would just add that there is certainly a loss in sexual pleasure for the male who

faces circumcision --

and in sexual performance --

[proteus_lives]

319. educate: indoctrinate.

:eyes:

[boppers]

197. Do you now, or have you ever had, a penis?

That would be a good indicator on your personal knowledge of the topic.

[Chan790]

202. The continuing inanity of this rebuttal astounds me.

It's on par with the idiot "right-to-lifer" (female, if it matters) in college who told me that I didn't have the right to be pro-choice anyways for lack of a uterus.

[boppers]

227. I lack a uterus.

Thus, I don't think it's fair fair to say what others should, or shouldn't, do with theirs.

It's Pro-other-people's choice, not my choice.

[Chan790]

238. That was my rebuttal nearly-verbitim n/t

[defendandprotect]

215. All life begins as female . . . therefore a penis is a converted vagina ....!!!

How many males have you made love to -- ??

That's also quite a good way to judge what's going on!!

:rofl:

[boppers]

228. Much of life begins as non-determined sex....

Several species shift sex, and gender, over the course of their lives.

I'm not sure why you're asking, but I've made love to three men, and 36 women, in my life. What does that tell you, or give you a basis for judgement?

[defendandprotect]

231. All life begins as female --

if DNA triggers a male, then the female genitals drop and form a penis/testicles.

If you've made love to circumcized and uncircumcized males . . . did you notice any

difference? In pleasure or performance on the part of the male?

I certainly have --

[boppers]

232. Your genetics teacher should be fired.

Life knows no sex, no gender.

Ask a paramecium.

WRT my own experience, cut men last longer.

[defendandprotect]

233. All life begins as female - female is the model --

"Cut" men do not last longer -- and you can see that in their experiences from

puberty on --

The "cut" creates an oversensitivty -- which doesn't work for staying power --

and more like constant irritation for young males.

The "cut" takes away the protection the penis is intended to have --

Notice also the "David" has nothing like this extreme removal -- it's simply a nick.

Therefore -- there is also a religious LIE involved --



"Initially, all human fetuses are female, in that the default pathway is to develop into a female. During the eighth week of gestation, the presence of a Y chromosome and a functional locus for the SRY gene product, also called the testes determining factor (TDF), determines if testicular development will occur. This process converts the inherently female fetus into a male one, as a steadily increasing surge of testosterone is then produced by the testes. Much of the testosterone is converted to dihydrotestosterone, which is the key hormone to virilize the fetus. Along the biochemical pathway, other recently identified gene products likely play an additional role in the masculinization of the fetus.

Further progression toward the eventual male phenotype occurs as antimüllerian hormone is produced, inhibiting the formation of müllerian ducts, which would lead to female genital development. The fetal brain is also affected by this process. The corpus callosum, amygdala, cerebellum, and portions of the preoptic area of the hypothalamus are larger in brains exposed to testosterone. Corresponding parts of the brain are smaller in female, or testosterone-deprived, fetuses. Indeed, in the absence of testosterone, the fetus continues its progression in the female state. Development of the ovaries and the female genital tract is likely triggered by follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), which is present in both male and female fetuses, but whose effect is masked by the testosterone surge in males.

The gender identity of a fetus, and later an infant, is still incomplete. Yet, current research indicates that because of the expected hormonal exposure secondary to genetic sex, a certain gender bias probably exists in all newborns. This rudimentary gender identity, although incomplete, is an important determinant in gender development. The dimorphism of the brain itself suggests this. Nevertheless, variations may occur when endogenous or exogenous factors create a fetal environment where hormone levels do not follow the genetically determined pattern. The gender bias of these infants may be tilted away from one that correlates with the genotype. Such variations are discussed below. "
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic2789.h…

[boppers]

234. Are paramecium all female, then?

Are all asexual species female, in your model?

How about fungi, are they all female?

[defendandprotect]

235. Go back to my previous reply -- I've added info --

[boppers]

237. Saw it.

Do mushrooms have a sex, or gender?

[defendandprotect]

303. Great segue . . . are we circumcizing mushrooms now?

[boppers]

330. You said: "All life begins as female - female is the model"

So, are you positing that asexual life is female? That multi-sexual life begins as female?

Alternately, you said "All life", so maybe you mean that mushrooms do not live, or that yeast is dead, perhaps?

[defendandprotect]

340. Are we circumcizing mushrooms now . . . ???

Try it again, boppers -- desperate at all?

[snooper2]

253. Still wondering what you do for a living D&P

still waiting...

[orleans]

191. wow--this thread is still up and running. i guess i'll jump in on it while

i can.

when i was about to have my baby (we couldn't tell from the ultrasound if it was a boy or girl) i asked my obgyn about this very topic.

i asked: doesn't it hurt the baby? it has to hurt--a lot!
she said it was a very quick procedure.
i said do you give the baby something to kill the pain or numb him?
no.
why the hell not?
she said a shot would probably be just as painful.
i said: what about using some topical to numb the nerves?
she said by the time it would take for the topical to take effect the procedure is over.
so...basically, she didn't want to waste her expensive time just hanging out waiting for the fucking topical to kick in. (there's no money in waiting for that--or she'd rather be somewhere else? i don't know)

anyway. i thought this whole thing and the way she explained it was really a bit heartless and cold.

i had a girl. end of story.

[ohheckyeah]

192. Breast feeding

in public?

[AllyCat]

194. Deal with this almost every day at work.

The docs numb it up with lidocaine and when the baby screams, they say it is because he doesn't like being restrained as opposed to perhaps giving more anesthetic. Makes me want to puke. There are also a few who say "babies don't feel pain because their nervous systems aren't developed fully". And even if it is numbed up correctly, once it wears off, those kids scream for two days every time they urinate.

This is truly a bizarre, cruel, and NOT MEDICALLY NECESSARY custom.

Sorry you watched that. I know how you feel.

[defendandprotect]

216. Thanks for telling us the truth -- !!! Parents should be able to watch this happening ....!!!

It would then quickly end, IMO -- !!!

[likesmountains 52]

269. Well, where I work the parents are encouraged to watch, and usually do..but I repeat

that the baby gets a penile nerve block and most of them don't bat an eye after they are numb. Again, I'm not weighing in on if this is right or wrong...just posting what I see where I work

[defendandprotect]

329. Thank you -- still I would think it would be a memory that would stay with parents ....

something to think back upon when they come upon an OP like this, perhaps, and

rethink it!!??

[BoneDaddy]

205. Both of my boys are uncircced

I hear ya.

[cynatnite]

210. I used to assist the doc when I worked in the hospital...

The baby does forget and parents opt to do it for a variety of reasons. Last I heard, that trend was changing. More parents are declining the option.

My daughter opted not to have her son circ'd. My son was and if I knew then what I know now, we wouldn't have done it.

A lot of parents will continue to have their sons circ'd as long as they are not educated. I'm starting to wonder if the reasons they are not being educated by medical staff is because circumcisions bring in a ton of money.

[flvegan]

214. Now go check out "Meet Your Meat"

Maybe vegetarianism will be next, if you're not already.

[Gator_Matt]

236. Thank god I'm European (i.e. not mutilated)

I'm not going to click the link, since this thread speaks for itself. Ouch! Good thing you guys don't remember it.

[CBGLuthier]

242. Did he talk? Is it safe?

"literally tortured"

:-)

[Vinca]

243. I wouldn't watch it. When I was about 20 I got the notion that I wanted to be a nurse.

I excelled at the "book learnin'" - top of the class - and got along fine with the patients, then I saw a circumcision. It wasn't the only thing that drove me from nurse's training, but it was near the top of the list. Horrible!

[Crunchy Frog]

276. One of my sons' NICU nurses told me

that it was the only thing she ever saw in nursing that made her pass out.

[pipi_k]

287. I'm not a nurse or anything close to one, but

I have had children, and I did become the primary caretaker for my 93 year old MIL before she died.

I've seen urine and I've seen feces and I've seen vomit.

I've cleaned it all up without batting an eye.


But a bloody nose or scraped knee will make me woozy every time. Even seeing someone do a blood glucose test on a finger will make me sweat and turn green.

Not sure what my point is here, but I'm sure it's something along the lines of we all have our Achilles heels...

[McCamy Taylor]

260. How can a post about the horror of circumcision get zero recs at DU?

I am a physician and I have performed the butchery (as a resident in training). I would never ever circumsize a child of my own and I advise my patients against the procedure, too.

The main reason people choose to cut off their infant sons' foreskin? So his little penis will look like his daddy's. If daddy was missing a limb would we amputate one from each of his children?

[Touchdown]

262. Because it's anti Semitic to be against circumcision.

At least according to a couple of people up there.

[McCamy Taylor]

267. Seriously? I thought it was anti-Muslim. One thing the two religions can agree on I guess.

Along with their being only one God and not eating pork.

[Swamp Rat]

272. The poster made an anti-semitic comment "up there"

Apparently DU moderators agree.

"Because it's anti Semitic to be against circumcision." - Want to elaborate on this statement?

[Touchdown]

275. I have been called that by more than a few people.

Mostly for no other reason than simply wanting my foreskin back.

The fact that I have studied the history of this, and that it was invented in tribal Africa as a rites of manhood ritual and not as an invention of the hebrews or an original covenant between God and Abraham, and always talk about this bronze age fact, means nothing to those who think I am a nazi for questioning circumcision. Or perhaps I am all for Passion Plays because I say that it wasn't invented by the hebrews.

According to some people, I either love circumcision and cheer on the wisdom of taking sharp objects to babies, or I should donate to Hezbollah. A couple of people on DU have accused me of that.

The post above was deleted. I do not know what it said, but you started it with the idea that jews are un-reccing it because of a fucking circumcision movie.

[Swamp Rat]

279. I find the histrionics regarding the traditional practice of male circumcision is amusing

However, I take anti-semitism very seriously.

As for me "starting it", I was speaking for myself, and for example those of the Jewish faith, who might possibly be offended by the insensitive comments in this thread. (There have been many circumcision threads here in the past, some of which contained anti-Semitism in some form or another)

I will say this again so it will be crystal clear to you and other posters: I take anti-semitism very seriously.

[Touchdown]

280. I need examples.

If you take it so seriously, but concern for tribal barbarism is "histrionics" then You should have some examples that are beyond the pale.

Please list a few, if you don't mind indulging me.

[Swamp Rat]

283. Of anti-Semitism? You have been here long enough to know those posts are ALWAYS deleted,

as they should be. Let me know if you find any that were not already deleted.

One last bit of advice, referring to the traditional practices of Judaism as "tribal barbarism" will not win you many friends here.

[Touchdown]

285. Ah. And there's the disconnect.

Tribal barbarism as a term has nothing to do withnAbaham or the covenant.
Ritual Circumcision in africa tribes and among the ruling class in Egypt predates the Torah by a few centuries. It was always a rite of entrance into manhood for adolescent boys, especially in pre civilization Africa It is still practiced by a few tribes in sub-Saharan Africa to this day, as the story about 12 boys die bleeding to death from a ritual circumcision in the wild that happened last year.

Again, I have been in most of these circ threads in the last 5 years and have come across few, if any posts that could be construed as antisemitic. But I'm not on the prowl for them either. They may pass me by because I'm not Jewish and sensitive to them. So any examples would be helpful.

So you advise me and I advise back. I never had any disagreement with you. I'd like to stay on good terms. Please understand history where ritual genital cutting is concerned. I usually come from that perspective.

[Swamp Rat]

301. Thanks for the explanation

I really appreciate it. :hi:

[Crunchy Frog]

277. If that was a comparable video of a puppy or a kitten

most of the posters on this thread would be calling for a public execution for the person doing it.

[Touchdown]

278. Yeah, but boys are not cute puppies. Their potential frat boy rapists who need a pre-emptive lesson.

As soon as their out of the womb!

[Arkana]

281. Popcorn anyone?

[PBS Poll-435]

282. I knew this thread would rear its ugly head again

:popcorn:

[Radical Activist]

332. These threads always develop the same way.

But how can I resist a topic that's sure to include: comparisons to which gender has it worse when their genitals are chopped, references to how much someone loves their cut/uncut penis, anger at mommy, anger at random strangers with kids, and even deleted antisemitism. It's fucking golden.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

286. I just watched a video of a newborn being delivered.

Anybody who is in favor of that kind of thing is a sick, sick, twisted person.

[Radical Activist]

334. lol

No fucking kidding.

[rucky]

290. Now that you mention it, I am feeling pretty traumatized from it.

I didn't before, but now I don't see how I can't without being pro-torture.

Thanks DU!

[Hekate]

291. This topic is outright flamebait, as has been proven time and again.

No one who doesn't already know it believes that male circumcision isn't "the same as" FGM, the excision of all or most of a girl's outer genitalia including clitoris.

No one listens to each other. It just goes on and on grotesquely.

Isn't there a dungeon for this topic that is equivalent to the Israel/Palestine dungeon?

Hekate

[KurtNYC]

310. Sure fire flame bait which ranks with

pitbull threads, veganism threads and threads on what or whom to blame for obesity.

[Stuart G]

293. This is the dumbest thread alive...

Circumcision is a health issue. Aids around the would be reduced if all males were circumsized.
This is about as dumb as showing a baby crying when he/she gets a shot...let's do away with vaccination..:sarcasm:

[PBS Poll-435]

296. Your post is full of lies. If you try to edit it to add sources, I will call you and your sources

bad names. Then to "refudiate" your POV, I will use equally biased sources. And I will be right.

Torturer. :(












:sarcasm: :P

[Touchdown]

309. BlaGOYAvich!!!!

:P

[PBS Poll-435]

311. Leave Blago Alone!

He has done nothing to you.





(Except provide constant entertainment)



:P

[TK421]

300. This thread is making my balls itch n/t

[Writer]

321. It's the Penis Unity Song - Sing Along!

((cue acoustical guitar))

Gather 'round, every man
Every man of every land.
Bring along nature's bounty
Bring it on - from every county!

The wind blows, but we don't care
Sitting bare on our derrières!
Brothers all, let's stand and sing
Our hands entwined but not coup-ling!

I look at you, you look at me
We're nature's brothers, can't you see?
You have a hood, and yours is free
And together now, we will sing:

No skin should stand between us!
No Bris Milah separates us!
We're brothers all, can't you see?
We're all one penis - you and me!

The fighting has brought ill-repute
To decisions made without dispute,
By boys and men, every day,
To keep the hood or let it free!

We handle every one the same,
We handle it - it's not a game!
We handle it, and handle it some more,
(I think I've lost track of the score...)

But we're together, our hands entwined,
It's time to let our hate unwind.
Your dick is capped, and his is bare
And together now, we will sing:

No skin should stand between us!
No Bris Milah separates us!
We're brothers all, can't you see?
We're all one penis - you and me!

Listen close, hear that sound?
It's the rush of something profound.
It's not a fart, but our resound.
Brothers, let's not goof around!

We came together for a cause.
What other reason would give us pause?
But our manly bits, proud and bare
Would there be a greater care?

So brothers all, look around!
We're together here, gender bound!
You are hooded, his is free,
And together now, we will sing:

No skin should stand between us!
No Bris Milah separates us!
We're brothers all, can't you see?
We're all one penis - you and me!

((music slows))

We're brothers all... can't you see?
We're all one penis...

JUST YOU AND ME!

[Writer]

322. It's the Penis Unity Song - Sing Along!

((cue acoustical guitar))

Gather 'round, every man
Every man of every land.
Bring along nature's bounty
Bring it on - from every county!

The wind blows, but we don't care
Sitting bare on our derrières!
Brothers all, let's stand and sing
Our hands entwined but not coup-ling!

I look at you, you look at me
We're nature's brothers, can't you see?
You have a hood, and yours is free
And together now, we will sing:

No skin should stand between us!
No Bris Milah separates us!
We're brothers all, can't you see?
We're all one penis - you and me!

The fighting has brought ill-repute
To decisions made without dispute,
By boys and men, every day,
To keep the hood or let it free!

We handle every one the same,
We handle it - it's not a game!
We handle it, and handle it some more,
(I think I've lost track of the score...)

But we're together, our hands entwined,
It's time to let our hate unwind.
Your dick is capped, and his is bare
And together now, we will sing:

No skin should stand between us!
No Bris Milah separates us!
We're brothers all, can't you see?
We're all one penis - you and me!

Listen close, hear that sound?
It's the rush of something profound.
It's not a fart, but our resound.
Brothers, let's not goof around!

We came together for a cause.
What other reason would give us pause?
But our manly bits, proud and bare
Would there be a greater care?

So brothers all, look around!
We're together here, gender bound!
You are hooded, his is free,
And together now, we will sing:

No skin should stand between us!
No Bris Milah separates us!
We're brothers all, can't you see?
We're all one penis - you and me!

((music slows))

We're brothers all... can't you see?
We're all one penis...

JUST YOU AND ME!

[Radical Activist]

333. This makes me feel more love for my fellow man

and for my manhood.

[Withywindle]

336. I'm a non-maternal women who has no real dog in this fight

except that I think we are born just fine, exactly the way we're supposed to be.

I don't believe in Original Sin, and I don't believe in any superstitious need to mess with any babys' tiny dicks at birth. We are pretty highly evolved, and there is nothing wrong with most of us that needs correction early on. Foreskins serve a purpose--the only reason they're ever cut off is from some scripture allegedly handed down from some middle-eastern desert god a few thousand years ago. And some Victorian "doctors" who sincerely believed that masturbation was TERRIBLE.

I don't believe in either philosophy, so therefore, I'm in favor of leaving little boys' dicks ALONE until they're old enough to decide for themselves. Mother Nature don't make no junk.