MrScorpio talks to "guys"

[MrScorpio]

There are times when I look at other people on this planet and I wonder if I was dropped on the Earth by Aliens... Looking at this most recent conversation about the man/woman dynamic is just one of these times.

Before I start, let me say that I don't claim to know everything, I just know what works for me. Being raised primarily by women, however, I think gave me a head start.

Here are TEN things that you should consider when you're meeting women.

First up, women are HUMAN BEINGS. They're not objects of any kind, they're not property to be owned, or female dogs, or anything other than HUMAN BEINGS... they're PEOPLE. And they really appreciate it when you treat them like people.

Second, I'm willing to bet that a lot of them are smarter than you are... Especially, in that treating PEOPLE like PEOPLE department. It would help you in the long run if you really remembered that.

Third, since women are PEOPLE, of course there are good women and bad women, like people in general. Repeat: Basically the rules for both good and bad women are the same for PEOPLE in general. Bad women lie, cheat, steal and kill. Good women don't, just like people in general. Just because some strange woman that you meet in the street or a bar doesn't want to sleep with you, (because I guess that you're not treating her like a human being), it doesn't make her a bad person... As a matter of fact, chances are that she won't sleep in because you're acting like an ass probably and that, my friend, means that she's probably a GOOD PERSON instead.

Forth, A SECRET: Most women won't tell you this, but take it from me that most women are actually highly sexual people. That's right, women enjoy sex... Imagine that. But it comes with rules, of course:

1. Women prefer to choose whom they have sex with. Each woman has her own idea about whom they choose to have sex with, when and why.

2. If you're in doubt about whether a woman wants to have sex with you, refer to rule 1.

3. Harassing women on the street for sex is not a good way of going about changing their minds when they have decided that they don't wan't to have sex with you. Again refer to rule 1.

4. Rape is not sex, it's violence and women generally don't enjoy being violated.

Fifth, RESPECT for women goes a long way in getting women to like you. Sex may or may not be in the outing... But, it's best not to expect it to be. Respect for women has it's own special perks... Like friendship and not getting slapped with restraining orders.

Sixth, You're in no right position to judge any woman that you meet on her looks, her weight, her choice of attire, her drink of choice, her career, her choice of sex partners, her intelligence, or anything else about her... Unless she trusts you enough to ask you for your opinion. If you do have her permission to offer it, remember that RESPECT is the best way to go.

Seventh, when it comes to engaging her with rude language about sex, unless she gives you her permission, it's best to keep your mouth shut about the subject.

Eight, If you really can't fight the urge to say hello to a strange woman that you've never met before... The best way to go about it is just to say "hello", or "good day", don't leer or stare, or stalk her... Just extend a friendly, respectful greeting and be on your way. Chances are that you'll leave her with a favorable impression about yourself. If it's meant to be, it could work out in the long run.

Ninth, if you wouldn't say something to your own mom or sister, you probably shouldn't say it to a strange woman in a bar or on the street.

And finally tenth, if a woman doesn't want to talk to you, obviously you haven't taken into consideration anything that I've said. Which means more than likely, that you're doing it all wrong. So, start at the top of my list and try it all over again.



I'm sure that there things that I missed, but that about covered the basics. Once you get the hang of it, it really works well from there on out.

Of course, if anyone has any problems about what I've just wrote, feel free to let me know about it.

Have a pleasant day.

[PCIntern]

1. Well written and just the right tone...

K & R!

[Swamp Rat]

2. k&r

[pinboy3niner]

3. Yes--you were dropped on the Earth by aliens. :)

I don't even have to read your 10 points to know where you are going with this. I know you've got a good heart, so the result is pretty much pre-ordained.

It suddenly occurs to me that a certain cartoon would be appropriate here. If I can grab it, I'll re-post. :)

[bbdad]

107. I was one of them.

Seriously, speaking as the father of two young women, your OP is excellent.

[JTFrog]

4. k&r

:thumbsup:

[pinboy3niner]

5. An EXCELLENT--and relevant--cartoon:

With all credit, and thanks, to Brickbat.

[MrScorpio]

7. Damn Skippy. nt

[hlthe2b]

16. That about sums it up....

Honestly as a woman, when I hear men toss out the phrase "I'd tap that..." I am truly glad I don't own a gun. :mad:

[seabeyond]

35. yup. as if they have ownership on all unknown womans body. nt

[femrap]

The one that gets

me upset...'I'd HIT that.' And I do have a license to carry. But I use my brain as a weapon instead.

[Lorien]

354. I've heard all of those and worse.

Including the asinine statement at the end.

[Maru Kitteh]

994. I really believe the vast majority of women have. I think it's so pervasive that many

otherwise thoughtful and well-intentioned men have no idea how common it really is.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

508. I have NEVER seen this subject addressed before!!! This needs to go SO VIRAL

god,...


I'm speechless.....


It's just SO damn fucking needed.






so fucking needed.




I've been so tired for so long at how the daily cruelties women have to put up with are treated in general as nothing but a fucking joke. These daily indignities are just the mild end of the spectrum, but they illustrate the general attitude in a society when they're so ubiquitous.

You can tell about a society by how it treats its animals? How about by how it treats its women....

[seabeyond]

515. it is a step in dehumanizing females. nt

[BlancheSplanchnik]

546. sure is. It's purposeful too; men who do it get a thrill out of seeing women react to being hurt.

Cruelty for sport, which I was just saying in a few other replies. Exactly, as you say--- dehumanizing.

Yet not taken seriously, women speak up (sometimes) and are denied, belittled, talked over, told to get over it.....

[BlancheSplanchnik]

542. I hope no one mistakes this for a toon about men's bad courting skills!

Or their poor social skills. It's got absolutely nothing to do with male mate-seeking behavior and everything to do with hatred. (just had to say this; noticed some posts that seemed like some people were interpreting it that way.)

It's cruelty for sport, pure and simple.

Cruelty to young women, especially, but all women actually is truly entertainment for too many men and boys.




I've noticed this kind of behavior is scarily common in many venues, in real life. I notice it on the web too.... Youtube, Yahoo comments, other random sites I happen on...any time I scan around that kind of discussion board, I see it--don't have to look too far usually...nastyness and/or sexualization aimed specifically at any female who participates or tries to contribute.

It's one of many ways of acting out hatred against women.

[Withywindle]

731. It's all OVER on the web.

Blogs, message boards, gaming sites--if you have an obviously female username in a lot of places, you better turn messaging/chat OFF or else you'll get lots of unwanted messages about your anatomy and the sender's anatomy and exactly how the sender thinks they should fit together. When you just wanted to talk about games or politics or history or whatever.

Obviously it has nothing to do with looks or anyone actually wanting to meet me and get to know me--it's the damn internet--it's just about harassment.

I signed up here in '04 with a deliberately gender-neutral handle for exactly that reason. Nasty experience.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

863. misogyny + sadism and cruelty. It is HATE. Calling it miguided courtship is SO FAR WRONG

I could SCREAM. Fucking SCREAM.


I've noticed that, mentioned it on this thread, about the ganging up I see on women and girls in discussion boards who make the grave error of speaking in public, having personal interests, voicing an interest or opinion.

The social chaos going on and the demise of the intellect (or rather, the rise of mass stupidity, along with ballooning population) will -- is already -- result in a reversion to the rule of Animality, where the strong oppress the weak. Women do not fare well in such climates.

[Withywindle]

882. It's exactly why I HATE the direction these threads always go.

Women are not stupid. We KNOW the difference between a sincere request for a date and crude sexual domination.

The difference is night and day, apples and oranges. It's hardly rocket science to tell them apart.

When some men insist on talking about the former when it's obvious we're furious about the latter, it derails the whole thing and once again, ruins an opportunity to have an honest conversation about something that really bothers women. Goddess forbid we talk about THAT.

[MrScorpio]

884. Damn Skippy! N/T

[lumberjack_jeff]

999. An excellent point

The OP has said that his courtship advice to DU's guys was a catalyzed by the cartoon above.

Why would women cheer and recommend a post which conflates "cruelty for sport" with clumsy courtship? The OP is doing exactly what you're hoping "no one mistakes".

It's really kind of the core of my objection to the OP. The presumption that absent his advice, the cartoon is would be the default manner that men here would interact with women.

[Cirque du So-What]

6. I couldn't add a single thing to what you've said

I hope the guys to whom this advice is directed take it to heart.

[RagAss]

8. Great post...but what a pity it has to be spelled out.

Further proof that America has shit the bed, I guess.

[femrap]

148. +1000 nt

[sendero]

9. This all sounds very nice..

.. and of course is all true. Unfortunately it does not address what makes a woman find a man attractive and just giving respect is not all there is to it.

But, I'm not willing to wade through the crap that results when you talk truthfully about this issue. I'd rather talk about unions or something.

[MrScorpio]

10. Like I said, this is just the basics

And, of course, the age old axiom about beauty being in the eye of the beholder can cover a whole lot of other ground.


Unions, good - Right to Work and At Will Employment... BAD!

[comtec]

14. .

.

[JerseygirlCT]

18. Probably many of the same hard to pin down completely things

that a man finds attractive in a woman.

And the people with substance themselves are likely to seek the same in other people, I've found.

[lukasahero]

21. You can't spell out what makes a man attractive to a woman

because women are individuals and our tastes vary.

[MrScorpio]

22. ...Just as PEOPLE are wont to do. nt

[Kahuna]

25. So true. Some women are actually attracted to the low life scum

you'd see on Jerry Springer's show. :eyes:

[BlancheSplanchnik]

512. perfect answer. n/t

[defendandprotect]

629. This isn't primarily about "attracting" a woman ... it's about human respect ....

including for women --!!

[lukasahero]

634. The post I was responding to specifically made the comment:

"Unfortunately it does not address what makes a woman find a man attractive"

I responded to why that was so.

[defendandprotect]

676. True -- what makes a man "attractive" to a woman was a side issue of the OP ......

almost an afterthought --

the primary issues being to respect females -- to treat them as you wish to

be treated --

and to remind us all of the problems we still have with harassment of females --

and rape of females --

and I'll add murder of females --

[potassiumnitrate]

59. So true

The OP outlines a great way to make girl friends, not girlfriends.

[SeattleGirl]

91. Interesting response. Why is it that you think that the behavior

MrScorpio talks about in his OP is only useful for making female friends and not girlfriends? As a woman, I can tell you that the list he posted is spot on. I've been called "b**ch", "sk**k", "wh**e", and a variety of other things by men who apparently thought I would react to that as if I'd heard a siren's song, and fall all over myself to be with them. I've also been grabbed, felt up, and touched in other ways by men who were total strangers who thought they had a total right to do that because, well, they wanted to. Not endearing behavior in my book. I've almost been raped twice by men who may have gotten away with it, had there not been other people close by. When they didn't accomplish what they wanted, they had the audacity to be angry at ME. Both these men were my boyfriends at the time. They wanted sex, but when I resisted, they decided to go the violent route, because they apparently saw me as their property.

Now, my response isn't intended to say that I think that that is what you would do or the way you would act toward a woman; I don't know you and presume nothing. But my question stands: why do you think that the OP's points would only get you female friends and not a girlfriend? I know that for myself, and some of the women I know, being treated like a person, with respect, goes a hell of a long way. We find that men who treat us well, as people and not property or objects, are very attractive, regardless of their physical looks. I've met men with the 6-pack abs and very handsome faces that I have not been attracted to a minute after I met them, because of the sense I've had from them that it's all about them; I would just be an appendage to them, not a person in my own right. And I will also say that I've known men who've had the same reaction to a beautiful woman: she's nothing but a package of narcissism wrapped in a pretty package. I think that bottom line, MrS is saying that respect for others goes a long way, whether we are relating to someone in an intimate relationship, or as friends, co-workers, neighbors, etc.

[Cherchez la Femme]

283. Naw, cause "girlfriends" should be treated as

what? How?
Non-humanely? Without respect? As insatiable whores?

I read all your posts under the thread of the cartoon which was reposted here -- you have serious issues regarding denial of the objectification of women; along with the (obvious to all but women) good-natured, non-threatening bonhomie of 99.999% of the poor, put-upon male
That's of course JMO, but I'm just a dumb broad (member of Intertel) also a 'woman driver' (so bad our insurance rates are way below masculine rates)
as many men say, among other bon mots
so what can one expect?


Sucks so bad to be part of the --by definition empowered-- patriarchy.
Why, the three times I've been sexually attacked (which I don't care to expound upon),
not to mention the so-many-times-I've-long-lost-count dirty, anonymous, frightening telephone calls dealing with such edifying topics as my sexy lips & mouth and what they'd like to, uh, deposit in same, to how much they'd love to f*ck me, hard, as a "real man" (and these guys didn't even know I was gay, or if they did they were mind-readers since I was way long closeted to all but a few) &etc.
must pale in comparison to what men experience at the hands of we 'emasculating' women. :cry:


And of course we --at least I-- am/are bitter
which is true enough
but only to those with certain attitudes.



Anyhow, THANK YOU Mr. Scorpio!
from a fellow Scorp :applause:

[potassiumnitrate]

298. LOL. You've been had

Go look all the way down thread. The OP is nothing short of disingenuous.

Man, I knew this thread was bullshit from the start.

[SeattleGirl]

394. What part of MrScorpio's not running away from that did you not

get? Or do you think that pulling up some old thread by him makes you King of the Playground?

I think it is you who is being disingenuous. He, at least, had the wherewithall to own up to what he posted.

That says a lot, in my book.

[me b zola]

Would you point out which post down thread that you are referring to?

TIA

[defendandprotect]

630. .. and you think being disrespectful and harassing them gets girlfriends???

[Chicago dyke]

61. you'll probably laugh at hearing advice from someone like me

but really, it's pretty simple. women like confidence. men too. orientation and gender don't really matter in this way. i always tell guys to be the man they most want to be, and women will respond to that much better than being 'the man i need her to fix into the man i want to be.' i know it sounds a little trite, but being positive and confident (and not whining or an asshole who complains about stuff all the time) really is the only way to go. ymmv.

i make this criticism of men at the gay blogs i read: a lot of times when men ask for relationship pointers, what men are really saying is "why won't someone much, much more attractive than i am like me?" it seems to me a lot of the time men over focus on someone's looks, as if those were the reason for successful relationships. it's great to be with someone who makes you feel good because you know everyone is attracted to that person and thinks highly of you as a result of having that person on your arm. but a real relationship (see the original post for details) is what most women want, and most women understand that a healthy one isn't based solely on physical attraction.

i haven't read the thread mentioned in the original post and now i'm a little scared to. heh, but i'm a sexual minority in a lot of ways and don't really understand most people anyway. i'll be a serial nonmonogamist for the rest of my life, i'm pretty sure.

[MrScorpio]

62. Thanks a lot for your input

A lot wisely chosen info in it.

[seabeyond]

65. isnt that said that a person worth is in the other person on their arm. that alone

says there are issues to address.

[salin]

931. Of course that is a ridiculous conversation - as individual tastes vary greatly,

and there is no universal rule that applies to all women per what each woman finds attractive.

I would suggest that dealing with a woman as an individual rather than a stereotype -and responding as an individual rather than trying to fill some stereotype (per what women find attractive) puts you two steps ahead of other guys.

[peacefreak]

11. MrScorpio, may I say

I love you. The women in your life raised you well. With thanks & book-marking.

[MrScorpio]

12. Ah, shucks nt

[Darth_Kitten]

13. You are so cool, Mr. Scorpio......

:D

[Upton]

15. No thanks Mr Scorpio

I'll make my own decisions about women. Nice that you're trying to endear yourself to the female population here at DU though..

[MrScorpio]

19. You bet, everybody has their own bag. You got yours and I've got mine.

Like I've said, I'm not an expert, by any means. So you can take my advice or leave it.

And whether I'm "trying" to endear myself to our fellow DUers of the feminine persuasion, I trust their judgement as to whether they view my motives as honorable or not.

[seabeyond]

36. yup. and a ready reply by some men..... ah

trying to get p****

and so much more

[Kahuna]

24. Oh dear...

:rofl:

[Amerigo Vespucci]

31. Interesting you should say that, Upton, because I didn't get that at all.

Thanks for taking the time to share your opinion, but I felt that the post was exactly what it was presented as...Mr. Scorpio having a one-on-one conversation with the "guys" of DU.

It's not the first time he's posted this kind of thing. Sometimes it's about relationships, other times it's not. But I can tell you this...if Mr. Scorpio writes about something with webbed feet and a bill that quacks, he's writing about ducks.

He says what he has to say, and sometimes people like it, and sometimes they don't. But he never beats around the bush.

Finally, regarding your statement "Nice that you're trying to endear yourself to the female population here at DU though," I'm sure Mr. Scorpio appreciates your support and encouragement, but if you spend any time at all on DU, you know one thing to be true...

...Mr. Scorpio has already endeared himself to the "female population" at DU by being honest, open, and direct. Read a few of his posts and pay close attention to how the "female population" responds to what he has to say. That's a result of him walking the talk. He doesn't tell people what they want to hear. He tells the truth and if that truth isn;t what you want to hear, he respects your right to disagree.

And just as you are supportive of Mr. Scorpio, I am sure that he is equally supportive of the "decisions" you've made about women...whatever they may be.

:toast:

[Common Sense Party]

71. And how's it working for you?

[snagglepuss]

158. LOL. nt

[femrap]

151. So I can say what the dudes say

about women to Upton? I think he needs to get laid. :evilgrin:

[defendandprotect]

264. Obviously, they're quite different from Mr. Scorpio's . . . ???

[Cherchez la Femme]

310. Ah, so basic respect & common humanity is an attempt

at endearing?

I already ranted above but with your attitude, I ditto my comments.

[potassiumnitrate]

323. Look like you were right

Bah da bah bah bah, I'm lovin' it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9073202&mesg_id=9076887

[seabeyond]

332. you simply found another something to grab onto allowing misogyny. and this is something you are

lovin.

you just look like a fool

[potassiumnitrate]

336. Actually, no

All the women in this thread who fell for MrScorpio's "advice" "to guys" look more like fools than anyone else here. Like Upton said, he was just trying to endear himself to you, and it worked, didn't it?

Man, he even got himself on the front page. I might just rec this thread for the fun of it. I'm laughing my ass off here.

[seabeyond]

343. wrong. the post is directed at a thread that had men dismissing women experience. op

is valid. nothing new that you guys are bringing up here. those posts are public. we are aware of them. it does nothing to the subject at hand. it does not invalidate what was said.

[SeattleGirl]

350. Step away from the computer. You're painting yourself a bigger

and bigger fool by the minute.

Not to mention, you are assuming things about the OP and those of us who responded favorable to what he had to say, in a false light.

You seem to think he is a fake, and the "wimmen" here are just gullible little airheads.

Gee, thanks, but I don't need you to champion for me.

[potassiumnitrate]

361. I wouldn't call them assumptions

That he was being completely disingenuous and has no credibility has been shown through facts, not assumptions. I'm not championing for anyone. I'm just laughing at the incongruity of it all.

[seabeyond]

367. the lounge. the lounge is a whole other animal. when in the lounge you play differently

than you do in gd. we all do.

and part of playing in the lounge is understanding the difference of behavior in the two rooms.

i have heard a couple of op posts in the lounge. i know the play he has done in the past. that is why i was impressed and surprised with post here and now.

but

because a poster sees one behavior one way, and another behavior another way, does not make him inconsistent. most of us adults on du understand this and keep a perspective.

you have an agenda and are playing like a child.

[SeattleGirl]

397. Exactly.

They're like kids on a playground.

Many of us, as you said, do know how to tell the difference.

Mr. Agenda doesn't appear to be able to do that.

[me b zola]

404. Yeah, he wants to get cyber-layed

:eyes:

Whatever...

[JerseygirlCT]

17. Thanks, Mr. Scorpio

That's very well put!

[MineralMan]

20. Well said!

[a la izquierda]

23. I guess I've been away from here for a bit...

I'm incredibly disturbed that you had to write such a post. What the heck's been going on around here? Jeez.

[defendandprotect]

266. Exactly what I was going to ask . . . trying to cathc up . . . !!

recent conversation about the man/woman dynamic is just one of these times.

[Odin2005]

544. This site has always been full of misogynists.

There are several posters I have gotten into flame-wars with because they think raping a passed-out drunk woman is OK.

[a la izquierda]

600. Yeah I guess that's true.

DU represents a cross-section of society. I'm married to a great guy. I can't stand broad brushing men as slobs, rapists, potential rapists, etc. I'm abstaining from most of these threads.

And I lived in Mexico, where I got yelled at by the construction workers next door every single day. Annoying, but never threatening.

[Brickbat]

26. What I found interesting in the shitstorm thread I started, though, was that the disagreements and

arguments did not come from "how can I tell a woman I think she's attractive" but from men not listening when women said this was a problem. I saw men say that it harassment didn't happen that often, it wasn't that bad, they had never heard of it, they had been harassed too so it wasn't just a man-on-woman problem, it was cynical to look at the world that way, and so on. It's the same thing that happens when an "n-word" thread or "why can't I say 'retarded'?" thread comes up. If someone says it's hurtful, the first reaction should be, "Oh. I'm sorry that happened to you. Tell me more." Not denying, not belittling, not one-upping. Listening.

[MrScorpio]

30. The problem clearly is that some men, a lot actually...

Just don't know how to talk to women.

Many talk AT the women whom they just happen to come across, and much of it is by way of implicit or direct intimidation.

Women clearly understand the message, even if the messenger is totally clueless about HOW he's sending the message.

Objectification is a primary cause behind of this breakdown in communication.

If men talk to women as if they are THINGS, instead of people, then it's no wonder that such a problem exists.

[seabeyond]

37. Objectification is a primary cause behind of this breakdown in communication.

d*mn skippy... lol

:toast:

[customerserviceguy]

57. There's a book I recommend to help in this area

And I recommend it to both men and women,

It came out a couple of decades ago, but it's still running around out there, and still relevant. It's by Dr. Deborah Tannen, who has a Ph.D in linguistics, and it's called, "You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation". Dr. Tannen has written a number of books that deal with conversation between various groups, such as adult children and parents, sisters, mother and daughter, and co-workers.

It really changed my life, I'm sure it can be picked up in paperback quite reasonably priced at used bookstores and on Half.com.

[Chicago dyke]

63. i was just thinking of that book

it's fascinating. i don't agree with all her conclusions, but she really does have a lot of eye opening information in it. people with communication problems should definitely check it out.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

519. yep...men not listening to women. And that habit is often seen as a cute joke

as you say, symptom of women being seen as things. That view is reinforced everywhere, so to talk about it, to call it out when it happens is so hard to do. If you see it and point it out (as I frequently do), very few men and even some women don't see what you're trying to raise consciousness about.

Great thread Mr Scorpio. I K n R'd


:loveya:

[defendandprotect]

269. Missed that thread . . . sad to hear of such reactions at DU .....

but not really surprised . . .

often I have the feeling these attitudes are being hidden --

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. Okay, don't rape anyone. Got it. Thanks!

Do you have any evidence that DU's "guys" are in need of that piece of advice?

Aside from the obvious trolling for recommends, that seems to serve little purpose. It reduces the entire post to simply a regurgitation of stereotypes.

[MrScorpio]

32. Well, although I could provide a pretty long answer to that question

I would rather defer to the women of DU to indicate to the male population in general whether or not my message is either welcome or necessary.


Also, if you feel the need to unrec or not rec my OP at all, by all means, feel free to do so at your pleasure.

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. I don't unrec.

"the women of DU" didn't write your op. If you feel empowered to write on their behalf in the OP, why don't you feel qualified to answer my question? Do you have some evidence that the object(s) of your advice need it?

The three-times-a-week "Hey guys! Don't rape women!" posts are getting really old. Your audience already knows that. I find it the worst kind of callout - the slanderous kind. It is as useful and should be as offensive as "Hey women! Don't drown your children!"

[MrScorpio]

42. Clearly, it's men that I'm addressing

Of course, I am using myself as an example of a man who believes that he understands the problem.

Some of us, in another thread became quite defensive when it was explained that harassment of women is not generally welcome.

Even the very nature of rape was questioned, and I felt impelled to espouse on the subject as well.

Of course, the way that rape and harassment are interconnected, I felt that my OP would be insufficient if I did NOT make an ever so obvious reference to it.


Rape, however is NOT the primary subject of the OP, communication is... As some of are unwilling or unable to apply proper communication techniques when sending and receiving messages to others.

No one is being called out. There are no names being mentioned and I was speaking in general terms.

So what is objectionable about that?

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. With all due respect...

The "proper communication technique" that you are best demonstrating here is creating affinity with your chosen audience by reinforcing and promulgating the negative stereotypes they hold.

Talking to the guys? Puh-lease.

Are rape and harassment interconnected? I'm (frequently) told that rape has nothing to do with sex - it's about power. Am I to assume that harassment has nothing to do with sex either?

Why am I reminded of The Most Interesting Man In The World?

[MrScorpio]

50. Much of this conversation was inspired by a posted cartoon

Although, the subject of harassment in the cartoon was direct, the nature of rape was very much implied in my opinion.


As I said, I felt that I would be negligent had I NOT broached the subject.

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. I didn't see the cartoon.

Can you provide a link for context please?

[MrScorpio]

54. It's post #5 in this very thread

It's been there for quite a while.

[lumberjack_jeff]

74. Sooo... DU's guys think the behavior in the cartoon...

... is an effective form of courtship, and that your advice is intended to counter that misconception?

:spray:

Ever consider a career in politics? Most people work a lifetime to develop pandering skills.

[MrScorpio]

78. Considering the extensive discussion in Brickbat's OP over this cartoon

I thought that an OP of my own lending to clarity might be appropriate. Of course, it's your privilege to disagree.

But obviously, you don't seem to have any additional retort regarding the subject of implied rape.

And really, if you're trying to imply some sense of hostility against me, in about what I wrote, let it be known that I would appreciate if you say way what really mean and not beat around the bush.

Otherwise I'm not going give the indirectness of your posts any serious consideration.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snagglepuss]

173. Some guys on this thread clearly need of your bang on, spot on,

nail meets hammer advice as it is seems they are not getting laid or at least not often enough. Some do seem a tad over tense, wouldn't you say? Sad really.

[MrScorpio]

183. They don't have to listen to me

They're better off listening to the women in their lives

[snagglepuss]

205. I am really utterly baffled by the responses from some DU males. A number

of them are outraged that you'd post something like this on DU. Are they for real? Do they think that being on the Left somehow means that men don't have issues about dating and women? (Of course women also have issues about men but since this thread is about men, I'm going to limit my comments to men.)


I'm baffled by the defensiveness. I'm baffled they aren't appreciative that you have taken the time to write a post that clearly has females swooning. Don't businesses pay big bucks to find out what makes women tick? Why not read the OP and female responses as interesting 'market research'? Even if male DUers know ALL your points already, what's so wrong about having those points be reinforced by women themselves who are enthusiastically cheering your OP? There is a lot to be said about finding out that one is on the right track especially in a society that constantly reinforces neanderthal notions about women.


:yourock:

[SeattleGirl]

207. Hit it on the head there, snagglepuss

Some of the comments in this thread from the male DUer's are quite defensive, which tells me they might just be guilty of the very behavior MrS talks about in his OP.

[lumberjack_jeff]

272. You found us out.

We're all a bunch of rapists, just waiting for someone to tell us that's a bad thing.

Don't forget to remind us again next week! Short attention spans, don't you know.

[SeattleGirl]

303. Why are you being such a jerk?

He never said that, but you are so into your own "ain't I cool?"-ness, you refuse to see that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

311. Given the list of offenses the OP feels necessary to advise me against.

I'd say "jerk" is pretty mild.

4. Rape is not sex, it's violence and women generally don't enjoy being violated.

It's completely offensive. That's why I'm being such a jerk.

[snagglepuss]

341. It wasn't directed at you personally so why are you making it to be a personal

attack? If the show fits wear it, if it doesn't, then don't. What's so hard about that? It is utterly inane for you to imagine that men on the Left can't be total jerks when it comes to women. Just because someone can put two and two together politically doesn't mean they have any clue about relationships or that they respect women. Are you not familiar with the concept of hypocrisy? You don't think that people across the spectrum preach one thing but act differently?

[lumberjack_jeff]

357. It was directed at all male DU'ers generally.

I'm not going to wear shoes of anyone else's choosing, and I won't consent to the process.

Do you think that DU's women need to be advised against infanticide? After all, I'm not talking about you, specifically, unless the shoe fits.
Besides, how do you know what evil lurks in the heart of other DU'ers? Just because they're liberal doesn't make them innocent of baby-killing does it? Why so defensive?

[seabeyond]

363. perspective. last night, we were in the grips of a huge thread

and a lot of men denying womens experience. this thread was put up addressing specifically those men. 24 hours later, and that thread well and gone, the energy is different now than it was last night, when this post was put up

it does not have the same significance or even the same meaning now as it did last night.

[snagglepuss]

485. Where does he condemn all male DUers? It sounds like he was

spurred to write the OP in response some male DUers on another thread. Just because you imagine him to be addressing all mle DUers doesn't make it so. He is clearly tlking in general terms. As to your second point about infanticide, you make no sense whatsoever. If someone were to write women should not commit infanticide, I would simply agree because I share the conviction that no one should commit infanticide.

[lumberjack_jeff]

613. It makes no sense because you haven't lived your life

... being cautioned weekly about not being a baby killer. At some point, you finally realize that they really are talking about you simply because you have the same plumbing.

Men think by analogy. The problem is there simply is no analogy. Women aren't assumed to be latent criminals until they prove themselves individually trustworthy by, for instance, posting completely ingenuine and pandering OP's.

[Name removed]

862. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SeattleGirl]

345. Why does that offend you?

If you wouldn't do something like rape, why are you offended? I truly don't understand.

And just for clarification, there ARE men out there who DO have to be reminded that rape is violence.

[Cherchez la Femme]

317. Why did it touch a nerve?

You just may want to honestly ponder that...

[lumberjack_jeff]

325. LOL!

Do most men cower at your feet when you call them rapists?

[Cherchez la Femme]

417. Kindly post link

of reply where anyone called anybody here, personally, a rapist.


Glad you find this so amusing!
Funny, funny, funny...


edit: Strange, but I can't help thinking your self-avowed "I stand corrected" statement just a teeny bit specious...

[lumberjack_jeff]

610. .

MrS) Want women to like you? Don't rape them.
me) I'm offended by that. I'm not a rapist.
you) Why so defensive? You should *really* think about why that's touched such a nerve.

Absent the accusation that I'm (at least) a latent rapist, your post upthread is complete gibberish. I needn't provide you the link because you are either a) a random word generator or b) the accuser.

Seabeyond is fair and credible. If she says I'm wrong about the typical catcall, then I'm wrong.

[seabeyond]

626. wow, but

i will say, i hear what you are saying. i think about ny hubby and our many conversations. actually all my guys, cause i talk about all this with all of them. and i will say, boldly, everyone of my guys (friends included) ALL have your initial reaction when talking these issues about men.

lets look at the woman issue... one of them (there are others i can name). using men. to be taken care of. i know, as do you, that there are women that feel they have a right to use a man financially. i so oppose it, i probably went to extreme to prove to men, all women were not like that. i have heard enough friends and even young female family that have been conditioned, that i know it is something in some womens mind. they too are conditioned for this in society.

i see a post about women using, and my first reaction is... dont give it to me.

i have been staying out of your posts. i respect you, the more i listen to you, the more i respect. i understand you have some harsh with perspective of female, and without knowing, i know there are reasons

i also feel from all your posts, really you want the best for all.

and ultimately that is my goal, too

so, really i am simply saying in this post

i do hear where you are coming from. and a couple other really good guys on this thread that has taken it the same as you

this is for you though, because from my perspective as a female, i want so much more, from men like you. and i ask for it, from my guys.

[BoneDaddy]

881. Um maybe we are tired of shit like this

just like you would be when women are mass generalized. In DU it is an accepted form of behavior to think of men like that. In fact, in my life, the OP's "lessons" would only be used for a small group of men I have known and not the vast majority.

Funny how projection works. Women can rail against the ills of men constantly and we are just supposed to shut up and take it. Not here. I think it is sadly humorous that the very thing your are trying to make a point about men, you are doing yourself unconsciously. We are telling you we do not like it and you are not listening, yet you continue to do it.

We are telling you it is offensive, but you don't listen. Just like the cartoon, but reversed.

Maybe we are tired of coming to DU where we are constantly told that the feminine is more important than the masculine. That the problem between the genders is on men and that women are constant victims. Apparently the message is that women have suffered at the hands of men and that it is payback time. So we are supposed to just sit back and let you send out messages about men that are untrue and represent the worst of men. Men are very rarely spoken about in a positive manner in here. It is sickening.

[defendandprotect]

297. hmmm..... ?

I haven't seen the original "brickbat" thread so I don't know if it brought

out DU'ers we rarely see posting here or if it was regulars?

However -- it would be tough to miss the right wing effort over decades to

desensitize males to female issues -- and to create anew male violence against

women -- including rape -- which is certainly violence.

Just look at TV -- look at our military academies and rapes -- our military and

gang rapes of females who are on the same team!

The 10 years of war, I think, have also been used and is succeeding to create

a newly violent male --

[sailor65]

326. A poster smarter than I am

posted a good comparison downthread, saying this OP is like Bush joining DU and posting threads on the importance of avoiding unnecessary wars.

On edit: Since he deserves credit.....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9073202&mesg_id=9076988

[seabeyond]

340. but really, it is just another effort to dismiss a very real issue for woman that op

brought up.

we already know about the poster. it is not new to any of us. it does not negate what he posted which was relevant to a thread that had many men denying womens experience.

[sailor65]

358. Please don't misunderstand my position

and my concurrent opinion that it is a real problem. I jumped into this thread because of an OP writen by a poster who does the same stuff. Men who genuinely love and cherish women do not like men such as the OP at all, and he's been solidly called out.

I don't want to negate understanding of the existing problem. I don't dismiss the problem at all; I dismiss the integrity of the OP.

[seabeyond]

371. i have understood why you are posting as you have

a number of times i have posted on your posts, to tell you, in no way would i ever see you behave in such a manner, at all. then i delete to stay out of it. as hubby would say, but i would never do that. of course he wouldnt. not who he is. i understand that.

since reading your posts, i see how men can be offended by how this post was written.

why i explained the energy of last night when it was posted and what it was addressing.

i am only jumping in to say... i get why you are bothered.

now

post at will, and i will leave you alone. :toast:

[sailor65]

388. Thank you

considering I probably did get a bit cheeky in some of these posts tonight. And thank you for understanding. It means a great deal to me.

I never saw the original traffic that apparently started all this. My baseline was this thread's OP. It sounds like something pretty heavy went on?

[Cherchez la Femme]

474. With all due respect

and I mean that honestly, no snark intended whatsoever...

...if you understood that "something pretty heavy went on", why then did you respond instead of with that in mind,
but instead as you put it:
(responded) "a bit cheeky"?

I'm just having trouble grasping the disconnect.

[Odin2005]

545. We have a bunch of posters here that think date rape is OK if the woman is passed out drunk.

I got into a massive flame war with them just over a year ago in a thread about a scene in a movie starring Seth Rogan involving just that scenario.

[BoneDaddy]

879. Defensiveness?

How about we disagree? How bout we think that MrScorpio is throwing us under the bus? God forbid you tell a woman how to think about anything in here and you get it shoved up your ass. I do not think MrScorpio speaks for me or the vast majority of the men I know. In fact, I think he is just trying to seem cool, look for acceptance from women and it comes across as totally disingenuous in my eyes. I know the type.

[defendandprotect]

284. You think the cartoon is NOT based on reality . . . ????

[lumberjack_jeff]

304. Maybe, maybe not.

I concede that I'm not in a position to know.

What I do know is that the view that DU is the most likely place on the interwebz to find the perpetrators, and that said perpetrators really only need some courtship advice, is patently silly.

Have you been harassed in that manner here on DU? Do you think that cartoon is based on the reality here?

(On the other hand, if you're a "spicy thai babe" then I stand corrected.)

[SeattleGirl]

347. "Maybe, maybe not." Really?

So, you think that when a woman says she's been harassed, maybe she was and maybe she wasn't?

Dude, you're just diggin' yourself a deeper hole here.

[dionysus]

402. you're completely missing his point. his point is, the op is preaching to male DUers to not

abuse and disespect women.

since DU males are liberal, they're not the type of guy that would treat ladies like shit.

so it appears to some he's just posting it for attention.

the issues mentioned are real, but the perpetrators of such shit aren't likely to be posting here.

[seabeyond]

418. except there wa a huge thread of the very du males that you say would not treat us like shit

doing exactly that. or denying what we experience ect....

you can find some of the posters right here on this thread, if you chose to look.

[dionysus]

432. oh. i didn't know that. do you have a link for it? that sounds awful.

[seabeyond]

437. here it is.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9062677&mesg_id=9062677

[dionysus]

445. thank you. i'm going to read that now.

:hi:

[seabeyond]

451. no way, you cant, it is huge. took me all night. i came in quite late. and

you are welcome

[Odin2005]

547. Just because a guy is a Liberal doesn't mean he can't be a misogynist asshole.

[SeattleGirl]

548. +1,000!

[dionysus]

625. i think it makes it a hellll of a lot less likely.

[defendandprotect]

509. Guess you didn't hit the link, either -- !!! Therefore, we don't know what reality is for females!!

(On the other hand, if you're a "spicy thai babe" then I stand corrected.)



:evilgrin: :hi:

[defendandprotect]

454. Maybe? You're a male and you don't know . . . ?

Who do you hang out with except other males -- of course you know --

There is no way that you can know or guarantee that there are no "perpetrators" here

or potential "perpetrators" --

Nor are you in any position to "know" what any or all males at DU need inthe way of any

kind of advice. For you to imagine so is "silly."

The OP isn't addressing behavior here at DU!! What??? How confused are you?

This is a discussion about real life -- and go find a female who hasn't been either

disrespected, harassed by a male. And you'll also find huge numbers of females who are

either victims of male rape, or who have been victims of incest -- often by male relatives.

Do you know that hetereosexual males are 100X more likely to sexual abuse children than

homosexual males??

Do you recall the anonymous poll which asked young males if they would rape a female if

they could get away with it???

Every generation of males need to hear advice like what Mr Scoprio posted here -- !!

Is "spicy thai babe" by any chance an attempt to disrespect or harass?

Try being a grown up - and take Mr Scorpio's advice --

[lumberjack_jeff]

462. Perhaps you should have clicked on the link I helpfully provided.

And the advice was ostensibly provided to the guys who would read it e.g. DU'ers.

[defendandprotect]

514. Again, I'd encourage you to argue your feelings and thoughts about all of this

in an OP where you actually take responsibility for your comments --

and where you can actually see how DU'ers feel in return --

Takes some courage -- but hope you do it --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9073202&mesg_id=9077677


I also have to comment on your very confused thinking that it applied to
personal experiences of people here at DU!
Don't know how you got that confused but that thinking needs attention.
The OP is about real life --
The cartoon is about real life --
What women are telling you in response is about real life --
Yes, often threads where women are expressing their feelings, even here at DU,
are subjected to ridiculing comments by males. That isn't the same thing as
what the OP was discussing --
DU can offer some protection for women's issues -- not all of them!



PS: Include your link to . . .
(On the other hand, if you're a "spicy thai babe" then I stand corrected.)
and see how many DU'ers hit the link --

[defendandprotect]

276. Missed it, but thank you -- Actually, I think when our nation is torturing and

preemptively attacking other nations -- and wiretapping -- there is a

brutalizing of the nation that takes place and it encourages this renewed

macho mess we're still trying to work our way out of --

Obviously for more than 40 years the right wing has been trying to create

a violent public -- and especially to desentisitize men again to their

emotional bonds with women and children -- and, IMO, to encourage violence

against women --

If you look at all at TV, it's pretty much a runaway situation now!!

With gang rapes making a comeback in reality!

We can't even put our women into the military and trust males on the same team --

even at our military academies!!

Honor and respect are issues to be dumped overboard on this joy ride to hell -- !!

Thank you for rising to the occasion to reteach those values!

[seabeyond]

56. actually, much of the behavior done on the street by men to unknown women is about dominance and

humiliation and not about an interest in woman

[lumberjack_jeff]

70. Then that kind of makes the OP pointless as advice, doesn't it?

Unless his advice is "if you want to pick up women don't dominate and humiliate them."

Sound kind of like "if you want to build a house, leave the matches and gasoline in the truck."

This advice to the lovelorn is a fairly transparent attempt to curry favor with the people he's ostensibly not talking to.

[seabeyond]

72. i think a lot of men, really boys, are being told today that this behavior is just being a man

indicative of masculinity. being sold to all of us.

i think another point is, the men that dont do it, might realize it is happening and might actually tell their friends, sons to knock the shit off

and i think that a lot of men do not realize that this is about dominance and humiliation and maybe they can think it thru and see it isnt cute and maybe not do it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. Gangs suck

The cartoon shown upthread has a big flaw. I've never seen an individual man on the street catcall an individual woman. The guy who catcalls an attractive girl on the street and the girl who flicks cigarette ashes into the hair of the geeky guy at the club are not communicating their contempt for the victim, they're communicating with their gang of laughing peers.

I don't see this behavior promoted as normal or typical anywhere but here. Men are not pigs to the degree the prevailing DU stereotype indicates.

If harassment is about dominance and humiliation, why would the harasser care about courtship advice, since that isn't their intent?

[seabeyond]

77. i gave you three different explanations and most of it is learned and not knowing

there are probably reason you dont see it. i cannot contradict you that you have not seen it. i have had a lifetime of it. every woman i know experiences it. i am seeing my too young nieces experience it. it is life.

there really is not a lot i can say if you dont believe it is happening.

[lumberjack_jeff]

80. Okay.

I stand corrected.

[Matariki]

144. Yay - another "you've never seen it" so it doesn't happen comment

Guess what. You are wrong. It happens all the time. I'm speaking from experience - and I'm certain that many women on this board will tell you the same thing, if you only can have the courtesy to LISTEN.

[femrap]

162. Maybe he doesn't get out often....

hell, look at the sig line...:wtf:

And maybe he's just self-centered...his own center of the universe.

[lumberjack_jeff]

201. Anaxagoras was a philosopher.

Philosophers are people who think about stuff.

I'm always happy to help.

[Matariki]

212. hey there,

I didn't see your post to Seabeyond where you say, 'I stand corrected' before I made my post. If you meant that, I'm sorry for what I said about not being able to listen.

Peace.

[lumberjack_jeff]

262. I did mean it.

Her experience in the matter is more relevant and credible than mine.

:hi:

[femrap]

227. But of all the

philosophers in all of the world and with all that these philosophers had to say over the ages, you selected this one. Insightful, needless to say.

lumberjackoff is alone and thoughtless.


edit for typoff.

[lumberjack_jeff]

265. I really hate alert.

I really wish this could stay forever and ever as your legacy.

Inarticulate allusions doesn't make a person look smart. You have to say whatever it is you're thinking about the quote.

I'd tell you what the quote means, but nothing you've said so far suggests that it would benefit either of us.

[femrap]

280. then shut up already.

You have problems....you will have to deal with them.

As a result, I'm not reading anymore of your hatred.

What do you guys do...roll on logs or something??? I think it would be very good therapy. It would keep your mind keen and your body busy. Roll on...roll on...rolling on the logs.

buh bye.

[Cherchez la Femme]

480. "Philosophers are people who think about stuff."

Such gentlemen: always willing to help out the little lady!
Consider yourself edified! :puke:

[lumberjack_jeff]

606. You're right. That came across as condescending, didn't it?

In retrospect, it might be interpreted that I don't think very highly of the individual to whom I'm replying.

After all, the patriarchy might compel her to behave in such a juvenile fashion. "And did you see what he's wearing? Ohmigod!"

[Withywindle]

733. So because you've never seen it, that means you think it never happens?

ALL of these threads on the subject are full of women saying, "it does happen. It happens to me all the goddamn time."

If you had two hours and I had a better memory, I could make you a very long list of all the times a single guy alone has said foul and nasty shit to me, grabbed me, followed me, tried to catch me...etcetera.

Nobody is calling you, personally, a rapist. That's not what this is about. What this is about is women saying, "Oh yeah, this shit happens all the time, God I hate it" and SOME men (like you, actually, but not others) saying "oh, it can't be THAT bad," "Well I've never seen it," "Well I'VE never done it, how dare you imply that all men are bad," "Well maybe SOME women perceive it as a threat but they're just paranoid..." etcetera, etcetera...

All of which are tactics that most women hear as yet another example of a man refusing to truly LISTEN, believe that we're not all hysterics and liars and therefore what we're saying is likely true, and really think about and empathize with what we're saying.

And you know what? This denial of other people's reality is not fresh, it's not original, it's not you being a sexy rebel or bad-boy or truth-speaker or admirable contrarian--it's just more of the same old shit, men thinking they know better than women about *everything,* including women's problems. Feh.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

753. Incident from my graduate school years:

One of the women from my class complained to her boyfriend that she was always getting harassed in the neighborhood around campus. Her boyfriend was skeptical, because he'd never seen any evidence of it when he walked with her.

So, as he later told a group of us, she asked him to walk about twenty feet behind her for a day and pretend they weren't together, since of course, the goons never harassed a woman who had a male escort.

He saw her getting catcalls from the guys on the construction site, having teenage boys flash pictures from porno magazines at her, having young guys lean out of passing cars and yell obscene suggestions, etc. etc. It was obviously highly educational for him.

[Withywindle]

758. OH, so true.

I wish I had a dollar for every time a boyfriend or male friend said, "But I never see it when I'm with a woman."

Well DUH.


THAT is something I think every man who really wants to understand what women go through should try. (With an agreement with the woman, of course--being followed is creepy if you don't agree to it.) Just once. Just to learn. I bet it would open a lot of eyes.



Also, it reminds me of a VERY politically-incorrect joke I heard once.

Q. What's the REAL reason women in Afghanistan agree to walk 20 paces behind their husbands?

A. Landmines.

[MrScorpio]

75. I'm fairly certain that you're suspicious of my motives

However, would you care to more direct in your assertions?

It would help to understand exactly what i'm dealing with by way the tone of your posts.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. I think you are preaching to a choir by demonizing those not in the church.

Your advice to guys that courtship means not being an asshole, rapist or harasser isn't newsworthy to DU's guys. It does however inflate your prestige among those who think guys only need to be told to not be assholes, rapists or harassers by more enlightened guys. *swoon*

Clear enough?

In fairness, I've read what you've written for a very long time, and this is the first time I've taken such strong exception. It is human nature to seek validation, and it seems to me that you're falling into the rec/unrec popularity contest as a proxy for quality writing and thought.

This site could use a great deal more listening between the genders, and promulgating destructive stereotypes does not serve that goal.

[MrScorpio]

90. I'm sure that you know that I didn't start this conversation

Whether or not who would validate it, I've made it very clear that I'd leave that up to judgement of DUers from each's own particular point of view.

In Brickbat's OP, if there was sufficient enough consensus about the meaning behind the cartoon, I wouldn't have felt the need to post my own addendum.

Needless to say, that I stand behind everything that I wrote in my own OP, because it's in my own words, and of my own thoughts and experiences. Plus, if I didn't have any doubt as to whether there was a consensus about my own opinion, then I obviously would be preaching to the choir, and thus no need to write what I did. But it just so happens that there ARE other obviously objections, so your point about preaching to the choir MAY apply to you, however it doesn't apply to some others.

Frankly, if my OP was absent of ANY recs, I'd stand by it just the same. My ONLY purpose was to add my own unique perspective to the discourse, nothing more. If there's finding fault in me posting my own OP, I admit that I like to do that a lot, so be it.

Absolutely, not every man is guilty is of fulfilling the stereotype. I was not aware that I was accusing the entire male gender of doing such a thing. If that was the impression that I gave, I apologize. But still, it doesn't diminish my given point one iota.

And lastly, I will point out that defensiveness about this subject in particular doesn't bode well for healthy discourse.

[defendandprotect]

328. You're saying DU males are the "choir" . . . ?

Your advice to guys that courtship means not being an asshole, rapist or harasser isn't newsworthy to DU's guys.

And, further, you seem to be suggesting that you can guarantee that the choir never sins?


And who is it who you have in mind here . . . ?

by demonizing those not in the church


Your objections to Mr Scorpio having made some DU'ers "swoon" sound not only like sour

grapes -- but maybe even more like resentment that anyone actually understands that advice

like this is still necessary based on male behavior?

In fairness, I've read what you've written for a very long time, and this is the first time
I've taken such strong exception. It is human nature to seek validation, and it seems to me that you're falling into the rec/unrec popularity contest as a proxy for quality writing and thought.


It is obvious that you've taken very strong exception to this post --
but I don't think it really has anything to do with your assessment that it is an attempt
to curry favor/validation.


Rather, THIS admission seems to lay out the true cause of your unhappiness . . .

This site could use a great deal more listening between the genders,

and promulgating destructive stereotypes does not serve that goal.

So you think that the depiction of harassment of women -- and rape of women -- is based

merely on "promulgating destructive stereotypes of males" -- ????



:eyes: :nuke:

[lumberjack_jeff]

346. Men aren't the intended audience. They aren't the choir.

They aren't really welcome in the Church of DU, unless they are willing to preach from the hymnal.

"And now we'll read from offensive gender stereotypes chapter 12, verse 3..."

... but if you can do that... by golly, you're golden regardless of what you do the other six days a week.

The key is sincerity. If you can fake that, the world is your oyster.

[defendandprotect]

439. Again, are you saying the OP's caution re disrespecting females,

not harassing females -- and not raping females --

is "promulgating destructive stereotypes" of males -- ???

[lumberjack_jeff]

446. Yes.

The generally accepted stereotype that we're all just a bunch of Neanderthals needing to clobbered upside the head every couple of days to remind us that rape and harassment are bad things lest we revert to our normal selves.

I can't make this any simpler.

[defendandprotect]

456. Ok ... then we need you to start a thread to that effect ... argue that position ... PLEASE ....

Sadly this is NOT "sterotyping" males --

and when if you have the courage to start such a thread I think you'll get

a much needed education!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

465. The fact that you believe it doesn't make it less a stereotype. n/t

[defendandprotect]

497. The fact that I believe what? That women deserve respect -- not to be harassed --

and not to be raped --??

And that it happens all the time to women -- !!

See the Poll up right now with women telling you what's actually going on --

And, let's also be honest that men are encouraged to this violence vs women every

day by patriarchy, porn and violent TV --

Let's get back to what you actually said re Mr Scorpio's OP --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9073202&mesg_id=9077499

and

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9073202&mesg_id=9077135

and

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9073202&mesg_id=9077088

and

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9073202&mesg_id=9077088

And, again, let's see you start a thread arguing that position --

[Cherchez la Femme]

487. Great suggestion!

Please let me know when the edumacashun thread is posted. I'm sure it will be fascinating!

Good to see you D&P! We never seem to be on at the same time anymore! :hug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

754. After reading a series of your posts, I am highly tempted to say,

"If the shoe fits, wear it."

Otherwise, why would you react so vehemently?

[BoneDaddy]

877. Well said

Thanks for calling it out.

[defendandprotect]

306. It's advice against male violence and rape ... and anyone who suggests it's not needed ....

is running from realiy --

This isn't "advice to the lovelorn" -- it's advice to those who disrespect females

enough to try to humiliate them, to harass them in public and private -- and to rape them

if they have the chance.

And what would possibly be any real objection to "currying favor with women" -- unless

you heartily disagree with the "don't rape" message?

[lumberjack_jeff]

315. Please speak more plainly.

Do you think that, absent MrScorpio's advice to the men on DU, we will rape women?

[defendandprotect]

338. Do you believe Mr Scorpio's post is "promulgating destructive sterotypes"....???

Are you suggesting that YOU know that males here at DU never rape, harass or are

violent with women -- ?? Or never entertain such ideas?

I think this needs further explaining . . .

promulgating destructive stereotypes does not serve that goal.

[lumberjack_jeff]

458. You didn't answer my very simple question.

Do you think that DU's men are predisposed to rape women?

[Cherchez la Femme]

492. You didn't ask me, but I'll give you my .02

I in no way saw it as a warning or a calling out that ANY DU males are "rapists".

Rather, I saw it as wise, well learned advice for the benefit of young (whether in body or mind or both) know-it-all whippersnapper posters of the original thread.

[defendandprotect]

619. I have NO idea -- and neither do you --

You are describing DU males as the "choir" which suggests that you're presuming --

and I stress presuming because there is no way that you can possibly know -- is that

all DU males are respectful of women and their rights.

The post wasn't directed at anyone at DU -- IMO, it was a general heads up to us all

about the status of women and the need to improve male relationships with females.


In general, however --

What we do have as guides re the male population is statistics --

and they are low in comparison to actual rapes every year --

We have males at our Military academies where honor codes exist raping their female

classmates!

We have males in our Military raping female service members who are their "teammates" -!!


For Pete's sake, men are raping other men in our prisons!! 280,000+ every year!!

And when they're released it is said the first thing they do is to rape a woman ....

to prove their manhood!!

Do you recall the figures when young males were asked anonymously whether, if they

could get away with it, they'd rape a female?

Do you understand that males are our sexual abusers of children?

Hetereosexual males are 100X more likely to sexually abuse a child than a homosexual male.

Meanwhile -- let's trust that everyone here at DU is NOT disrespectful of females, nor

abusive of them in any way. But, again, neither one of us knows whether that's true or

not or how reflective DU may be of the general population.

This is information which all males should be aware of --

[lumberjack_jeff]

670. No. Jesus. One more time.

The op was written for the benefit of women. The choir. The people who rushed to his defense and recommended the OP. The ones who find being called a "spicy thai babe" endearing.

The ostensible "for the guys" was a head-fake.

I guarantee that every man who has more than a week or two of experience at DU already knows that sexual abuse is a problem, which we all have agreed to help eliminate. The fundamental rules of this place make us all on the same side in that regard. They also learn that they will frequently be hit by random shots from the indiscriminate fire of those who find it easier to blame an entire gender. This indiscriminate fire that you are demonstrating does the underlying cause a disservice.

[defendandprotect]

679. You think this post, advising males ... was directed at females here???

You see DU females as the "choir" -- ???

Sorry, this was no "head-fake for guys" -- it was advice for males -- by a male.

Again, I think you need an entire thread to share your opinions so we can deal

with ALL of them at one time!!

I guarantee that every man who has more than a week or two of experience at DU already knows that sexual abuse is a problem, which we all have agreed to help eliminate. The fundamental rules of this place make us all on the same side in that regard. They also learn that they will frequently be hit by random shots from the indiscriminate fire of those who find it easier to blame an entire gender. This indiscriminate fire that you are demonstrating does the underlying cause a disservice.

Wake up -- YOU cannot "guarantee" anything --

And, obviously despite your confidence in males, one hell of a lot of them are disrespecting,

disabusing, harassing and raping women -- not to mention murdering them!

And, by the way, where's that "agreement" -- ? Is it public? Is it written down?

Do you keep it safe somewhere? How many males at DU do you even communicate with, leave alone

know personally? Not only are your outlining a farce, you actually expect anyone here to

believe your personal knowledge of all of this?

They also learn that they will frequently be hit by random shots from the indiscriminate fire of those who find it easier to blame an entire gender.

That's not a guess by any chance, right . . . ?

Do you have a list of the males you've spoken with here personally who have told you that --

Did you run a poll perhaps that most of us haven't seen?

Again -- there are many aspects of your "claims" which we need to see you put in a thread!!

[SeattleGirl]

689. Couldn't have said it better myself!

Thank you for this post. :applause:

[lumberjack_jeff]

696. The agreement is here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

[defendandprotect]

743. That's DU rules ... are you vouching that every male here

personally follows those rules AWAY from DU?

Go back and read my post --

And WHY in hell is it that you think the original OP has anything to do

with relationships between posters here at DU????

It's general information, cautioning against specific male behaviors which

do go on -- in the real world. Has nothing to do with interactions between

DU posters!

Claiming that every male here, btw, is abiding by DU rules is like claiming

that every Christian behaves as we expect a Christian to behave!

[Cherchez la Femme]

478. His OP was about 'picking up women'? Your agenda noted.

Strange, I saw it as treating women with decency and respect. :shrug:

[seabeyond]

483. it absolutely was not about picking up women cause the asses that do this KNOW they arent getting

any woman. it is about humiliation and dominance for them. pure and simple

[defendandprotect]

622. +1000% --

[raccoon]

621. +1000. nt

[BoneDaddy]

878. Funny thing is your depiction of men is a mass generalization

and does not even begin to describe the vast majority of guys I know and have known. You have co-opted the angry bitter view that some women, in here especially, have about men. Women who are unable and unwilling to even begin to have a conversation about gender unless they have an emasculated, neutered male in front of them, agreeing with everything they say.

[hfojvt]

155. I did not see that message in the OP

Instead the OP seemed to play to certain stereotypes. Essentially it started with 1) women are better than men, 2) most men are jerks, 3) lots of men are over-grown adolescents. If it really was written to men, then why were they talked to like they are all 16 year old boys?

[Cherchez la Femme]

327. Read the original thread's comments

and then you'll know.

Or deny, deny, deny -- and by the tone of your post I'll give odds on the latter

[hfojvt]

636. by this time, I have no idea what the original thread was

[Confusious]

170. It's the weekly callout

Hey DU guys! don't harass women!
Hey DU guys! don't rape women!

Of course, since we're all guys, we're all morons and need to be reminded. Except for the select few, of course.

[Cherchez la Femme]

330. And you guys are SO put upon!

[Confusious]

335. No, just don't like being treated like a moron.

Is it your right to treat us like morons? Or treat us as badly as you've been treated?

[lumberjack_jeff]

447. Not morons. Felons. n/t

[Cherchez la Femme]

450. Right, 'cause there's really no rape,

there are really no sexual attacks.
Or to even mention, much less acknowledge there is such means we bully women are "treating (you) like morons"!
Edit: AND Felons!

Poor, poor guys. God, I can't tell you how absolutely criminally, how thoughtlessly you men are treated by us!

Ladies, all Human Beings: Let's get our priorities straight!

On behalf of we cruel, predatory women I'd like to offer a hardfelt (yes, deliberate sic) apology! :cry:



















Need I add :sarcasm:?

[Chulanowa]

466. DU is known for its high incidence of rape, of course.

Here's a tip; saying stupid shit is not the same as being sarcastic.

[Confusious]

468. Don't know if you noticed, but the OP was directed at the men at DU

I never said there wasn't any rape, just that I don't do it, unless you think otherwise?

I never said women weren't treated badly, just that I don't do it, unless you think otherwise?

I don't think most men here need to be told "don't rape women, don't treat women badly", unless you think otherwise?

Now is there anything else you would like to teach me about? Maybe not kick my dog or burn my cat?

How about don't eat drano, or fall of a cliff?

[seabeyond]

470. per a thread, that was exatly what was needed because of what male duers were saying

and because you dont do it as a male, doesnt mean it doesnt happen, which du males were saying... it doesnt happen. adn because you dont do it, and you recognize it does happen, then the suggestion is, when it happens in front of you, can you please call your guys on it, cause that is the only way things can get better. because what we found on that thread, is du men (not all, a lot where right there with us) dont listen to women, dismiss them, tell them they are simply being too sensitive. ignore it. be indifferent to it. whatever. adn never bring the issue up on du cause if you do, you are syaing ALL men do it.

[Confusious]

473. If a friend of mine mistreats a woman

He's not a friend after that. We're of course talking about rape, verbal abuse and physical abuse. Even catcalls on the street are not OK, while I would think lesser of him if he did it, we would have a talk, and he would be told to stop. If his pecker wanders, or if she does, that is between the two of them.

[seabeyond]

486. that is all the thread was. and a lot of men refused to accept that women experience this

it is a reality or there is a problem with it. that is who he was addressing. and he was not the only man addressing and in wonder by fellow male responses on that thread.

[Confusious]

491. Like i said below, that never comes across in the OP

If someone said "Guys, ladies are being harassed, can you stop it if your friends or someone you know is doing it"

You'd get all "yes" "done" "NP"

[seabeyond]

495. lol. well, he was addressing a lot of points that were brought up in that thread. nt

[raccoon]

623. If you really behave as you say in this post, you are MOST unusual. nt

[Confusious]

646. I don't think so, but if so, that is very sad.

All my friends since I was 18 are that way too. Childhood friends, well, they were assholes, not just to me, but to women too, so they are no longer friends.

[seabeyond]

647. i think a lot of like men hang together. hubby has a friend that is an asshole

college. though he recognizes the asshole he loves the guy too. and i can see the good in the guy. they will always be buddies, and i will always call him an ass or worse as will hubby, readily.

but over last couple decades, who hubby gravitates too, are like minds. men that are respectful to all really. and women.

so, it isnt in his world.

[Confusious]

649. There is always some acceptable level of asshole

there is a level that is not. I have my moments, and I still am embarrassed about things I did years ago. But they are, I hope, rare with me.

[seabeyond]

650. ya. with all of us. nt

[Confusious]

652. I think what it comes down to is...

How does the person treat those who are weaker ( if you will forgive the expression ) then they are.

How does the person treat women?
How does the person treat those of lower social status?
How does the person treat animals?

If the person treats one of them badly, then he's not friend material. I sometimes think I'm a little harsh in my moral compass, but I also know, if he treats them badly, it'll turn on me someday.

It has, and I learn quickly.

[Confusious]

482. Unfortunatly, that never comes across in the OP's

"and you recognize it does happen, then the suggestion is, when it happens in front of you, can you please call your guys on it"

[seabeyond]

490. that is why, after seeing perfectly reasoned males come on this thread, i took a second look at the

op. last night when i first read the op, and everyone read the op, we were in the other thread, so we knew what it was about, and what he was talking about, who he was addressing. tonight, taking a second look, i realize, the men that werent here last night are really missing out on what had happened, hence the thread.

that is why, i want to be off the thread, but i am still here posting. clueing the men in, that did not know.

[Cherchez la Femme]

668. "don't rape women, don't treat women badly"

But that wasn't the message of the OP, was it?
Wasn't it more like 'treat women with common courtesy and respect'?

Seriously, in your post's vein more strawmen are being erected here. Edit: first part of your statement -- but what good is something only half-true?
There should be an official No Smoking warning at the very top.

Or: Warning! Literal Flamebait!

[Confusious]

672. treat women with common courtesy and respect

Now is there anything else you would like to teach me about? Maybe not kick my dog or burn my cat?

How about don't eat drano, or fall of a cliff?

Seriously my grandmother taught me that when I was 5. Is there anything you can add? unless you know more then a woman who is 92, rode a horse to school, lived through world war 2, lost a husband who was a test pilot, farmed on the Oklahoma pan handle and raised two kids and a grandson?

Maybe how to be rude? I seem to be learning a lot of that from you.

[Cherchez la Femme]

797. You're getting repetitive

I didn't address those stupidities because quite frankly, their ridiculousness didn't deserve any response

And they still don't.

[Chulanowa]

455. What, you're not a sex-obsessed woman-beating lumbering troglodyte?

Didn't you know that on DU, having a penis automatically makes you a rapist, and every week you need to be told to not rape people?

Scorpio is doing those of us with a degenerate chromosome a favor! I'd have never been able to figure out how to respect one of these "woman" things without him. I'd have gone through my whole life believing that a lack of testicles makes a creature worth less than an eggplant!

I dunno what you're griping about. You need this condescending head-patting just liek the rest of us, becuase as a male, you are inherently stupid and brutal. Haven't you ever watched a sitcom?!

[lumberjack_jeff]

467. I'm a good kind of lumbering troglodyte. n/t

[Cherchez la Femme]

499. Classy. Real classy you are.

[Chulanowa]

503. At least as classy as you are, ma'am

And better at sarcasm.

[SeattleGirl]

502. In the words of Cyndi Lauper, "I see your true colors," and I

have to say, they aren't pretty.

[Chulanowa]

523. In the words of Crass, "so what?"

You think so? Do elaborate, please, I love psychological examinations on the internet.

[lumberjack_jeff]

611. You misunderstand. The point isn't debate, the point is the teambuilding exercise.

Vague allusions, veiled accusations and collective guilt are all quite good enough. The point is not to prove anyone wrong, (or yourself right) but to build a like-minded team.

That's what you "don't get".

Were it not for vague personal allusions and suspicious speculation, this would be a short thread.

[BoneDaddy]

Puh-lease

Nothing pisses women like you off more when men refuse to be pigeon holed into your myopic vision of what you think we are and point that out. You prefer neutered men you can step on or the opposite end of the spectrum that you can point to and think you are justified in your ugliness. It is called projection, look it up.

[BoneDaddy]

966. Puh-lease

Nothing pisses women like you off more when men refuse to be pigeon holed into your myopic vision of what you think we are and point that out. You prefer neutered men you can step on or the opposite end of the spectrum that you can point to and think you are justified in your ugliness. It is called projection, look it up.

[pipi_k]

28. On not being able to fight the urge to say hello...

from your list:

Eight, If you really can't fight the urge to say hello to a strange woman that you've never met before... The best way to go about it is just to say "hello", or "good day", don't leer or stare, or stalk her... Just extend a friendly, respectful greeting and be on your way. Chances are that you'll leave her with a favorable impression about yourself. If it's meant to be, it could work out in the long run.


One of the most memorable interactions I've ever had with a man occurred sometime back in the late 1970s when I was out with the Mr Pip of that time along with some other friends.

A man...a total stranger...came up to me and said, "I just wanted to tell you...I think you are lovely".

and that was that. He didn't leer at me the rest of the night. He didn't try to find out from friend who I was, or attempt to get my phone number.

He told me I was lovely, and I never saw him again.


I still remember it 30+ years later. He will probably never know how much a ten second act of kindness meant...and still means...to me.

[potassiumnitrate]

67. He probably already had a girlfriend/wife

Because if he actually wanted you, just saying hello and not attempting to get your phone number didn't work, now did it?

[pipi_k]

104. Not sure how to take that, but anyway....

I don't know who he was there with.

Some...not all, mind you, but some...guys wouldn't care if they were accompanied by their wives or not, so I don't know what being there with his wife would have prevented had he really wanted to be a weasel.


In any case, he acted like a gentleman when he could just as easily have cornered me and whispered something totally disgusting and nasty.

I've had that happen, too.

In my eyes, he was a gentleman who saw a young woman he thought was pretty and complimented her, expecting nothing in return. Nothing like that had ever happened before, and has never happened since.

[potassiumnitrate]

115. What I'm saying is...

What I'm saying is that he probably wasn't looking to pick you up in any way. He probably already was with someone and decided to give you a compliment and that was that. If he was single and looking for a girlfriend, him not trying to get your number resulted in him not getting your number and never seeing you again.

Let's pretend that he WAS trying to pick you up. Did it work? No. You saw him as a gentleman. He made you feel all warm and fuzzy. Great. He didn't try to get your number and he didn't get your number. Then you were gone for the rest of his life and now you're married to someone else.

Yay for him.

[SeattleGirl]

141. Let's say she was single, and so was he. Are you saying that

his approach was wrong in that situation? How do you know it might not have lead to something else? My first verbal interaction with my husband was to tell him he was the best dancer in the dance class we were both in. The class was close to being over, and it could have gone another way, but we developed a friendship, then we started dating, and we've been married since 1995.

Sometimes it does work. In fact, I would bet that more often than not, it does. I'm still not sure what you are trying to say, and why you haven't answered the question I posted to you earlier: What else do you think needs to happen to "get" a girlfriend? You can certainly let her know you're interested in her and be respectful at the same time. In fact, I'd say that approach might be a lot better.

[pipi_k]

181. Well actually, that's exactly what I WAS saying...

He merely gave me a compliment and then went on his way.


I didn't mean to give the impression that I was complaining or anything.

It was memorable just because it was such a simple act of gentlemanly kindness.

[Cherchez la Femme]

399. You are one SMOOTH operator!

Of course any compliment must mean more than the face value of the sentiment, right? As you imply, there must be an ulterior motive or they were just empty, wasted words!

Gay guys, actual strangers, at gay bars have often complimented my outfit, my makeup, my hair, me.

(As an aside: In actuality, so much so that it got to be a joke with the regulars & bartenders
--after they'd make sure that 'this guy wasn't bothering (me)' ...I never could say I was amused--
that while at my ladies bar of choice I was always getting hit on by 'adventurous' straight men: 'reality-based' guys visiting a Lesbian bar who somehow thought that a lesbian couldn't resist
"a real man"!
Oh. Swoon.)

--but those who I'm speaking of here were definitely gay! So by your analysis, they must have wanted my number at the minimum, yes?

No? Then how is that different? Because they're gay and that guy, uh, wasn't; you're sure? You surmise? You assume?

As if it really matters, but the truth is
You
Don't
Know
(Diddley)

Actually, nm, don't bother answering;
I've had enough of you already in just two threads, never mind your whole 66 posts...
Welcome to Ignore

[TroglodyteScholar]

29. I felt condescended-to for about a millisecond.

Then I realized that there really are guys who need to be told these things. Ugh.

[seabeyond]

38. interesting

and thinking about your post... i think my hubby would have reacted the same way. he understands the op so would have been a wtf, of obvious, then in thought as he further reads, a sigh and ya....

glad you posted so i can remember why some men react as they do, and it is not a bad reason.

[HEyHEY]

761. Yes, guys at frat parties and nightclubs, guys at du? Lilely preaching to the choir

[jaxx]

33. Thank you.

I appreciate your efforts and hope that they will help women everywhere.

[seabeyond]

34. most women are actually highly sexual people. That's right, women enjoy sex...

repeat
most women are actually highly sexual people. That's right, women enjoy sex...
most women are actually highly sexual people. That's right, women enjoy sex...
most women are actually highly sexual people. That's right, women enjoy sex...

thank you. all of your post is kick ass.

but thank you... thank you, for acknowledging that we too, ..... LIKE SEX.

the more internet rolls. the more society pushes the astronomical power and all around awesome of male sexuality, the further women become from having their own sexuality and it becoming all about men

i appreciate this the most in your post

again

most women are actually highly sexual people. That's right, women enjoy sex...

:toast:

[MrScorpio]

40. Well, It shouldn't be any secret to any around here that I like women

Mind, body and soul.

It's taken me some time to fully appreciate women as they deserve to be appreciated.

Call it maturity or call it experience.

However, if I can share my appreciation, perhaps we all can benefit from it, if it is found acceptable..

[slay]

41. I'd make a joke here

but i know the women and many dudes on DU would jump all over me. (i think that's what we argued over before - some support a more PC version of DU, and I don't. oh well i've learned to censor myself here sadly)

[seabeyond]

68. ah, you don't get to be insulting to women while pumping out your chest?

?

[slay]

112. You proved my point perfectly

especially since that had nothing to do with what I was going to say - it was relating to a previous conversation between me and Mr.Scorpio but thanks for your poor attempt at mind reading and trying to talk shit about something i never said. :eyes:

[seabeyond]

130. but see... i knew you had that all ready, too. simply implying what you were was doing the trick

so no surprise

[defendandprotect]

352. Love this post, as well . . . .

Think we went way wrong when we stopped breast feeding -- !!!

[SeattleGirl]

93. seabeyond, I'm with you.

The whole "virgin vs wh*re" meme is still alive and thriving in our society, and I hate it. In my experience, there are men out there who actually seem to be intimidated by a woman who enjoys sex. I guess they think that we should always be demure or something, even in bed. They have no idea what they're missing. :)

[seabeyond]

94. are you kidding. they create all of us as w****s yet insist we are asexual

how messed up is that. no wonder none of them are getting any. about schizo

[SeattleGirl]

101. Oh, I've run into the virgin-whore thing plenty. But I

get what you're saying (I think; correct me if I'm wrong). They create us as whores, but the "virgin" part comes in in how we are supposed to act. In public at least. It IS schizo, though, no doubt.

[seabeyond]

102. well, i agree with you on the virgin/whore thing. i hear that a lot. but with evolutionary behavior

i am seeing a whole new phenomenon with our males. they are all about their penis. it rules. it is beyond all things. it is absolutely all there is to being a man. it is their. very. definition. of self.

and women

well

we are there to be used, for their want

a whole new thing....

in a societal wave of patriarchy.

[SeattleGirl]

105. 100% with you on that.

To me, one of the most glaring examples is the proliferation of ads for Cialis and Viagra, juxtaposed with some pharmacists refusing to fill prescriptions for birth control pills for women.

What the HELL? That shit pisses me off so much I can't see straight.

If a man needs that kind of help, that's fine. But what about women? Oh yeah, we're supposed to be barefoot and pregnant. :grr:

[femrap]

161. FWIW,

only women should be allowed to fill those viagra and cialis scripts....and then she can give them to who she wants. It's really the only common sense way to deal with the matter.

[JackDragna]

43. I hate to needle you, but..

do you think men here need to be told rape is bad? I mean, seriously. Next you'll tell me you frown upon my "mailing strangers infectious diseases" hobby. :)

[MrScorpio]

46. If you can take a close look at the cartoon in question...

And honestly tell me that there isn't some kind of implication of rape within in its message, then you'll have my mea culpa.


Meanwhile, I know exact what I see when I read it.

[mwooldri]

44. In my world "guys" == "people".

What you posted goes well for all human beings. You can easily just switch the genders around and it would be true IMO.

That's the only problem I have with what you wrote Mr. Scorpio... that it's a man vs woman thing. I'd say it's a person vs person thing - and there are people who are (gasp!) not heterosexual.

Otherwise, thumbs up ;)

[MrScorpio]

45. Yep, I was being quite specific in this case

But I felt that I had a reason to be, just this time

[Bluenorthwest]

224. Ah, but while your intention is clearly good

You address 'guys' as in males, and then go on as if if all 'guys' are trying to pick up women, all of whom want a 'guy'. The language is exclusionary. Peace.

[NashVegas]

990. Guyland

Perhaps you haven't heard of it:

Published by HarperCollins, Guyland is based on more than 400 interviews over a four-year span with young men, ages 16–26. Kimmel’s study shows that the guys who live in “Guyland” are mostly white, middle-class, totally confused and cannot commit to their relationships, work or lives. Although they seem baffled by the riddles of manhood and responsibility, they submit to the “Guy Code,” where locker-room behaviors, sexual conquests, bullying, violence and assuming a cocky jock pose can rule over the sacrifice and conformity of marriage and family. Obsessed with never wanting to grow up, this demographic, which is 22 million strong, craves video games, sports and depersonalized sexual relationships.

[Cherchez la Femme]

507. Well, yes

to a point. I've been verbally sexually harassed by women too; very rarely but it's happened.

However

no woman has ever sexually attacked me or called me up with nasty phone calls,
anonymous or not.

[Fuzz]

47. I'll continue to use my club and bring 'em back to my cave as usual, tyvm.

;P

[MrScorpio]

49. I consider this quite a serious subject

However, the facetious nature of your post is taken with same deference that it is given

[Edweird]

51. I gave up trying to approach women a long time ago.

That has worked out quite well for me. I'm not manipulative, I don't lie and I'm a terrible 'salesman'. I have no use for 'generating' interest where there was none. So I let the women approach me. I get to be 'me' and I know that the women I am talking to are attracted to me on some level. Win/win.

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. +1 n/t

[femrap]

168. I think you and

Edweird should hang out together....have brunch. Go to an action flick.

[lumberjack_jeff]

199. Thank you, I shall. What a kind and conscientious suggestion!

:hi:

[mike r]

55. Yep. The only 'rule' is be yourself

and use protection (unless procreation is intended).

[seabeyond]

69. good for you. i would liek to see more of this. the breaking of the role on who

does the approaching. i think this would be a huge step to addressing the issue.

good for you

[Edweird]

140. I'm..... shocked.

Usually you're flaming me. Not that I'm complaining or anything - just pleasantly surprised.

[seabeyond]

142. cool.... you would probably

be surprised then in some of the other things i think we need for balance. that has to do with female ownership and nothing to do with male.

we just never seem to get to that point cause we are strugglin' with the same hurtle over and over and over, not allowed the opportunity in advancement in the conversation

[comtec]

185. SeaBeyond is one of the most fair minded people i've met here

in general if she's tearing off a piece of you it's probably deserved.

The OP, while imho, really poorly worded for the audience (DU) has a point.
don't be a dick, and try to keep your eyes on her's, not her breasts!

no means no, etc.

i've had my share of brush-offs as have pretty much every guy here on DU.
point is, smile, nod, and go away, and don't be an ass about it.

My ex-wife is still my best friend.
I'll just never trust her with my heart again.

Smile, nod, and move on.

[seabeyond]

193. hugs...

and thank you.

shhhhh, ( you are in so much hot water, lol lol)

and thanks.

:toast:

[Edweird]

198. The response I need to provide you would stir shit up with SeaBeyond.

So, I'm not going there. I'll enjoy the peace for it's duration. But I will say that you are inserting yourself in a conversation that has nothing to do with you and you clearly know nothing about.

[PassingFair]

89. You completely MISSED HIS POINT HERE.

The point being that WOMEN ARE PEOPLE.

You "gave up trying to approach women"?

What the hell does that even mean....

that you no longer engage in conversation with women?

Or that you no longer engage in conversation with women
for the sole purposes of attempting to have sex with them?

Why not try seeing the PERSON and engaging in THAT for
the simple human activity of being social, and THEN
seeing how much you have in common with them or IF there
is any chemistry that can/does develop.

You need to re-read his post and LEARN.

(And I have had my arguments with Mr. Scorpio in the past
on these boards, AND I have met him a few times in person,
and he has certainly come a long way, and has put a lot
of thought into communicating with ALL people in the time
I have known him..)

Lamont: :hi:

[MrScorpio]

96. HI!

[seabeyond]

97. ah ha... i thought you were hitting on her with that hi.... lol lol. nt

[MrScorpio]

98. Sometimes a "hi" is just a "hi" nt

[PassingFair]

99. He must have been hitting on ALL of my family members and friends...

because he talked to all of us, and everyone
liked him.

Were you hitting on my baby brother, Lamont?

You seemed awfully interested in his phone!

:rofl:

[MrScorpio]

100. Sorry, I'm already taken

However, I'm a gadget head through and through

[seabeyond]

103. i was teasing. i saw it at a glance. i was laughing at myself.....

grinnin

[Edweird]

135. What that means is: if a woman does not talk to me, then she has nothing to say to me.

I'm not going to bother her with inane and annoying chit-chat. The women that want to talk to do not hesitate to do so. I know that conversation with me is desired by them and not simply endured by them. What about that is confusing?

[MrScorpio]

174. May I interject?

That's a pretty defeatist attitude if you ask me. You've lost your audience even before you've opened your mouth, if that's what you're thinking.

I think that, if that's the reaction that you're getting, don't you think that you might benefit from a little examination?

Believe me, it's HOW you approach women which is 90% percent of the deal.

Sometimes you're going to have to make the move. I can tell you for a fact that a lot of women wouldn't mind being approached at all, IF it's done in the right way.


I wish that I could show you first hand.

[Edweird]

175. Defeatist? Hardly. What works for you won't work for everyone.

When I learned to shut the hell up in the 9th grade my high school experience turned into something that would make Caligula blush. I figured out what works for me. I'm the antisocial badboy and I've lived the life of a porn star. I cannot approach women - it's creepy and full of fail. Women come to me - sexually deviant women a lot of the time (I put out the 'vibe', they pick it up). All I have to do is make sure I'm 'visible' and it happens on it's own.(I met my ex-wife while working a private security gig) But, that won't work for you because that's not who you are. I think being authentic is the best policy. Trying to be someone else is where everybody goes wrong IMHO. I've had an extremely fucked up life and I've been on my own since my teens. My antisocial badboy persona is legitimate and who I actually am .

[pipi_k]

186. Not true

about "women who want to talk do not hesitate to do so".

Lots of times I want to say something but don't, merely because I'm nervous or unsure of how what I say might be taken.

And sometimes I'm even afraid the other person might not want to talk to ME.

[Edweird]

196. You're actually proving my point.

If a woman talks to me, it's because she really wants to - or just really needs to know where 13th Ave is. The women that put themselves 'out there' are the women I like. If you're too timid to talk to me, you're likely far too fragile for me anyway.

[pipi_k]

206. Hah. OK...

If you really knew me, you'd certainly think I was anything BUT "fragile".

there are lots of reasons besides timidity that a person would be afraid to talk to another person.


One of the very first "conversations" with the present Mr Pip went something like this, as we stood around having a smoke during a meeting one night:

Me: Nice night!

Mr Pip: Yup

Me: Wow, and there's a full moon, too...

Mr Pip: Yup


I thought he hated me.

Turns out he was scared shitless, something incredibly funny to consider seeing as how he was a retired cop, USAF Major, belonged to several city boards and commissions, and was a past President of a local Boys and Girls club.

Timid?

I think not.

If I had judged him based on your criteria, I'd have missed out on sharing my life with a truly good human being who is not "fragile".

But....different strokes and all...

:7

[Edweird]

209. First off, I'm not saying this is universal. This is what works for me.

I am not your husband. He and I are different people. Applying what works with/for him to me is pointless.
Secondly, you spoke to him. It appears that you made the first move. Which is exactly what I wait for.
Regardless, I am only pointing out what works for me - no one else. My point is that there is no one universal way to meet women - women are not a giant monolith. They are individuals with widely varying tastes, desires and needs. That's how both MrScorpio and I can both find partners despite being very different men. That's also why I find "Women like/dislike ______" posts so idiotic.

[pipi_k]

217. I realize that.

If your method works for you and you're happy with it, then by all means continue doing it.

All I'm saying is that if we make snap judgments of people...their fragility or apparent timidity...based on whether or not s/he interacts with us within five minutes (or less) of meeting, we're going to miss out on knowing some real good people.


Just wondering, though...if you've ever gone alone to a function where there's dancing involved, do you also wait for a woman to approach you first to ask for a dance?

[Edweird]

218. I go to underground goth/industrial/metal clubs, not ice cream socials or barn dances.

I don't dance. I drink and enjoy the music and hang out with whoever I may know there. Yes, I wait to be approached. I don't always get approached, but when I do it's worth the wait.

[MrScorpio]

220. I get it, You're a Babe Magnet

It clears everything up about your opinion

[Edweird]

221. No, I apply what works for me. That's the deal. It's not universal.

You're the 'nice guy', I'm the 'outsider'. We both have our niche.
I don't get hook up all the time. But if I initiate, I get none. That being said, I do ok.

[MrScorpio]

238. So, I'm a "nice" guy?

Suuuurrre

[Edweird]

324. Dude, it wasn't an insult.

[pipi_k]

236. Actually, I'm thinking more along the lines of "projection" here...

Shy, insecure people, afraid of being rejected, who wait for others to approach them.

Which there's nothing wrong with, really. I mean, lots of people are painfully shy.

But taking one's own shyness and then projecting it onto others, judging them to be "timid" and "fragile" if THEY don't make the first move...

hmmmm....OK.

that part is pretty sad

[Edweird]

322. Not even close.

I'm quite sure of myself and aggressive and dominant. That's the reality. I'm sure you enjoy the personal attack over the truth though.

[pipi_k]

627. I'm sorry you took it

as a "personal attack".

It wasn't meant that way.

Just an observation based on years and years of watching other people and knowing (in general and to a pretty good extent) what motivates/keeps me back, personally.



But hey...it's really no skin off my nose what people want to believe about themselves. My only problem is in having to deal with people who think they're just fine and it's the whole rest of the world that's messed up.

:shrug:

[pipi_k]

230. OK...I get it now...

Believe me... I understand more than you can guess or want to admit...

;)

[Cherchez la Femme]

530. It's been my observation

that men feel they have to, in order to meet women (or vice versa) -- at least the ones who tend to be a bit on the shy side.
And being lonely for the company and affection of the gender of one's preference can cause quite a hole in one's heart -- an ache in their soul.

The lucky ones finally realize the futility of the 'on the make/approach a stranger with intent' with an agenda in mind. The lucky ones put it aside, make friends, and let things happen naturally --or not-- from there.

That's my observation FWIW anyways :)

[Cherchez la Femme]

513. Best way! Not to mention honest & down-to-earth!

:thumbsup:

[potassiumnitrate]

58. That doesn't work, man

Following your rules will get you a whole lot of friends, but no girlfriends whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong, friends are nice, but maybe guys want more than that, you know?

[MrScorpio]

60. Well, I know what worked for me...

And in my day, a shortage of girlfriends was never one of my problems.

[potassiumnitrate]

64. Depends on "your day"

How old are you? I don't know how things were back in the day, assuming back in your day is decades ago. I know how things are now, though...

[MrScorpio]

66. I got married in 1990

But I'll tell you now, that If I were single again tomorrow, it wouldn't last that way for long.

Confidence goes quite a long way.

[femrap]

165. You think manners

and civility are gone because it's 2010 and not 1990?

So you KNOW how things are now, huh? Do you realize how stupid that sounds? You don't know crap.

And your ageist attitude is not allowed at DU. Got it?

You're new and you need to LISTEN and LEARN.

[Name removed]

178. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrScorpio]

180. Man, you've got a poor opinion of girlfriends, don't you?

Do you even bother having a conversation with these women before you hit the sack with them?

[SeattleGirl]

184. I would guess that he doesn't. He would definitely NOT be on

my "I find him interesting" list. He seems to think that being lovers and being friends are mutually exclusive.

[uncommon]

1016. MrScorpio - by "girlfriend" he meant "meatsock" of course.

Compliant, stomped down, and dtf.

[seabeyond]

187. want to get a girldfriend... dont listen to the fuckin women, they dont know what they are talking

about

your funny

[potassiumnitrate]

190. I did. When I was young and naive

Now I know better.

Sorry. But what I've been told and what actually is are two very, very different things.

[seabeyond]

194. hmmm. lol lol. nt

[defendandprotect]

362. If you're calling the OP "lies for men to ignore" ... I think you need to clarify where

exactly you're in disagreement -- !!

[Name removed]

231. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[quakerboy]

348. Wow

Just wow.

I suppose some people live long and successful lives by segregating their relationships with other people into seperate "Id talk to that" and "I'd hit that" groups. But I cannot ever see myself having a "GIRLFRIEND" who wasn't a friend. And I have a hard time seeing it being a happy healthy way to live for much of anyone, to be honest.

[seabeyond]

351. ah quaker....

the sanity.... have i told you, lol lol. ya ya.

a little reason and reasonableness goes a long way in this thread.

[Edweird]

163. Ok, but what works for you won't work for everyone.

A good friend of mine, that is nearing 50, can approach a 19 or 20 y/o hottie and basically say "I want you to perform oral sex on my girlfriend while I finger you with one hand and photograph it with the other". It works. For him. But not for you and not for me. He's got whatever it is that allows him to pull that off. (I'm sure it helps that his GF is hot and they both stay in shape, but there's more to it than that)
I'm the antisocial badboy. That works for me. The less of a shit I give, the more women love it. I bet that won't work for you.
You figured out what works for you. Congratulations. That doesn't make it universal, though. Protip: Not all women like the same things.

[potassiumnitrate]

179. I highly doubt this works for him

As another poster mentioned, this OP is more than likely just a suck up to the women here on DU and nothing more.

[MrScorpio]

189. If you only knew me, my friend

Oh, If you only knew me.

[potassiumnitrate]

192. Yeah. We're all from the Internets

And I'm a famous movie star with millions of dollars who drives a Ferrari. If only you knew me....

[MrScorpio]

195. Tell me, what would your current girlfriend think about this list?

Can you show her and get back to us?

I'm interested in hearing what she has to say about it.

[SeattleGirl]

204. If I may, I've met MrScorpio in real life. He definitely walks his

talk.

[Edweird]

202. I think it can be both. I have no doubt there are women that truly like 'nice guys'.

But touting it as universal is a bit misguided.

[defendandprotect]

366. And you think women actually like guys who disrespect them?

[defendandprotect]

364. So you don't believe that women deserve respect as human beings?

Or just what part of the OP are you in disagreement with?

Speak so we may know you!

[Common Sense Party]

73. Which one of those rules would lead to having no girlfriend?

[lukasahero]

81. (Psst -

The ones that mean you might actually respect a woman and like her as a friend before you get to fuck her...)

(:sarcasm: for those that don't know me.)

I find it freakin' hilarious to read these posts from all the "nice" guys bitching about how they're not entitled to fuck any woman they want. Like geez, the woman should have a choice or something! And they wonder why women aren't flocking to them...

[seabeyond]

82. i was thinking the gf you take out in the alley

and fuck up against a wall.... but yours works too. lol

[smokey nj]

83. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[potassiumnitrate]

111. It's real easy for you to say these things on the Internet

In the real world, you know what I'm talking about.

Hardly any successful relationship begins as a friendship. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but that's all they are: Exceptions. In general, women are not attracted to the men that they see as their friends. That's WHY they're just friends, after all.

Let's stop bullshitting here. I know it's an Internet message board, so it's really easy for all the women here to post that they want this and they want that. But in the real world you know damn will that if a guy approaches a girl with the intent of just being friends, that's all he's going to get. If that's all he wants, great. But if he wants more, it's generally not going to happen. Women don't respect and are not attracted to a guy who tries to be friends first and THEN tries to have something more.

[lukasahero]

114. Well, you'll have to take that up with my husband

My friend.

Of course, you do seem to have a certain attitude that you know women better than we women know ourselves, so I'm sure you'll just stick with that. Good luck dating.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lukasahero]

118. Wow - that's really nice

You know me better than I do even, not just women, me personally. Dude - you must be amazing.

Your bitterness towards women is likely part of the reason none of them want to fuck you.

[potassiumnitrate]

122. I have no bitterness whatsoever

I'm just pointing out the reality. The OPs suggestions will get a guy a lot of girl friends. Not girlfriends.

[MrScorpio]

123. Oh, boy... How big are your feet, by the way?

You know...

I'm amazed at how easily they fit inside of your mouth.

[lukasahero]

127. And many of us are telling you

that the guys we married followed Mr. Scorpio's suggestions.

Are you married? Do you have a girlfriend? If you want one, why wouldn't you listen to women who chose their husbands based on the fact that they showed us respect and friendship first?

It must be nice to know everything. I'm guessing you're not over 25.

[seabeyond]

136. maybe our young guys need dating 101 or relationship 101. cause they really seem to be clueless

this is beyond funny.... to sad

[Odin2005]

558. Most of the GFs I;ve had started out as FRIENDS.

You are simply wrong, spouting stereotyped garbage.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

762. There are certain men I am fine with as friends, but would never in a million years

consider as a lover.

You know why?

Because whatever happens, it's all about THEM. Someone else has good fortune, all they can talk about is why they didn't get the same good fortune. Someone makes a mention of a bad personality trait, and they assume that it's a hint to THEM. And so on and so on.

Such people can be ok as friends and colleagues, but as lovers, no!

[SeattleGirl]

119. You really don't get it, do you?

Just what is it that you think women want? If you noticed the responses on this thread by women, you'd see that we think what he said is just fine, and pretty much spot on.

I think what you're asking is, "Why aren't all these kinds of woman flocking to ME?" And I can tell you, with the attitude you seem to be displaying, there aren't a lot who will be doing said flocking. Give MrScorpio's suggestions an honest try. You might be surprised at the results.

[potassiumnitrate]

124. You're way off the mark

All I'm saying is that the stuff the OP said is what will get a woman to be your FRIEND. Not a girlfriend.

I notice a lot of the women in this thread are not single. I'm seeing a lot of "my husband", etc...

[SeattleGirl]

125. Yes, a lot of us have said "My husband", but how do you think

a lot of those relationships got to the point of marriage? As I said in another post, my husband and I started out as friends. I just don't understand how you see a difference in becoming friends or lovers. Many times, lovers (including husbands and wives) start out as friends. So no, I do not believe I am off the mark.

[distantearlywarning]

129. You may find this useful:

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

BTW, I'm another woman in this thread who was (*gasp*) friends with her husband before dating. We were friends for a year, dated for 3 years, and have been married for six.

[seabeyond]

138. ok women, i had my one night stands. how many of us dated our one night stand.... NONE, hence

ONE night stand, llol.

and it was always my choice. made it clear, a fuck or friends, cause wasnt going to be both. husband was friends then sex... relationship then marriage.

[distantearlywarning]

149. Yeah, I thought of this too, LOL!

I had a few "one-nighters" and a few "booty call buddies" when I was younger - everybody got laid and had fun and everything, but I wasn't necessarily interested in taking it to the next level with any guy I was just fooling around with. A guy I wanted to get serious about, on the other hand - we would have to hang out, talk, do stuff together, be friends first so we could see if we were compatible enough to do more than just go to bed.

[seabeyond]

137. it is a matter of been there, done that, ergo, we know. nt

[seabeyond]

134. we found or he found or we mutually found.... already. why is your ass on the net talking about

this/ how is it working for you

[SeattleGirl]

117. My husband and I started out as friends.

You seem to be saying that you have to instantly approach a woman with some kind of "I want to fuck you" vibe going on if you want to be more than friends., and I can tell you, that might work sometimes, but it's not going to work every time.

Besides, from my point of view, having a lover who is also a friend is the best.

[seabeyond]

133. almost ALL start with friendship. lordy. what a hoot. nt

[femrap]

166. Do you work

at being stupid? Are you taking some class that teaches willful ignorance? Women want to be respected and LISTENED TO.

You are in your own self-deluded, self-absorbed own little world and give absolutely NO thought to the other person.

[antigone382]

172. ALL of my most successful relationships have started as friendships

And I'm 26, so I'm talking about the modern world. I generally don't become attracted to a man right off the bat; I can perceive physical attractiveness of course, but true attraction doesn't happen for me until I have a good sense of the personality I'm dealing with, and that happens through friendship. Most of the truly happy couples I know have experienced the same thing; they started out as friends and the passion grew. For me, dating and other romantic events with people I don't know is just awkward.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

763. Yes, looks attract my attention--but personalities and mindsets grab my heart

even in the absence of looks. I've had relationships with men who were, by most standards, downright funny-looking, but in each case, it was because I found their personalities endearing.

[Odin2005]

556. The "Girls like bad boys" notion is total, complete garbage.

It's illogical nonsense, too, because it assume all women are looking for the same thing in a guy, typical conditioned gender-role stereotyping that has nothing to do with actual human behavior. Any statement that starts off with generalities like "women/men like X/Y" should be treated with utmost suspicion, such statements treats people as examples of essential types instead of individuals.

[Common Sense Party]

876. My wife and I went directly from being friends for 2 years to being

engaged. We skipped all the dating nonsense. I treated her with kindness and respect, and damned if that wasn't what she wanted in a husband!

[defendandprotect]

369. That's what they're being taught these days ....

and the war/macho mentality isn't helping either -- torture!!

Think we need waaaaaay more breast feeding !!!

A Colustrum Revolution -- full steam ahead!!

[NashVegas]

991. Only If You're Determined to Score A Batshit Crazy "Hot Chick"

Who doesn't equate being treated like crap to being treated like crap.

[CrispyQ]

84. I love rule #9.

I had a man offer to help me with a flat tire. I was finishing the task, so I cheerily said, "No thanks, I've got it." He called me a fucking uptight bitch.

If this man's wife told him, that when she declined help from a strange man, he called her a fucking uptight bitch, what would this man's reaction have been?

Makes me wonder what his motive really was.

[quaker bill]

85. Giving away the "secret"?

It is ok, most guys do not seem patient enough to make use of it.

In my experience, little arouses a woman's curiosity more than a guy who seems nice and friendly, but not on the make. It could be because we aren't the sort they usually encounter... I will leave it for a woman to speak to that.

[seabeyond]

86. wow wow wow wow wow, lol lol. love your post.

that is so cute and funny. does a little tickle. it almost does seem like it is some secret. i am so thrilled that you recognize the secret adn are better off knowing it

LOVE this post.

good for you dude.

[quaker bill]

164. I have never been short of companionship

whenever I was interested in companionship. In my studies of psychology, I once learned that the brain is our largest erogenous zone. This seems particularly true for women.

[alfredo]

87. Learn how to cook, sew, do dishes, laundry, and general

cleaning around the house. Believe me, it will come in handy someday.


The best cologne is the one you don't wear. Take a bath or a shower. Sniff your clothes before you put them on. If it causes you to throw up in your mouth, find something else to wear. If you insist on wearing cologne, Spray it into the air and walk through the mist. If people sneeze and cough when you pass through the room, there's a good chance you are using way too much. You will find that clean skin is the preferred scent.


If you do as MrScorpio says, the above these hints will come in handy.


Remember, a big dick and fast car mean nothing if you are a clueless jerk.

[seabeyond]

88. If it causes you to throw up in your mouth

made me chuckle. love you guys....

really, having some stranger telling you she loves you on the net i think, would be a clue in for the guys, if not your words, lol lol

[alfredo]

607. I see internet dating as something akin to

sticking my hand into a box of scorpions.

[TBF]

113. Excellent advice - I'm still in awe of my hubby's cooking,

I tend to forget about food when I'm reading or doing something else. I'll gladly offer to clean up if he makes the meal.

[alfredo]

608. I was lucky. When my older sister left home, mom stopped

cooking. I had a choice: cook or starve. Now that I am 65 I can say I know how to cook. Sure I have huge gaps in my knowledge. I never got into making desserts. Meats are not my strong suit either. They aren't a real challenge when compared to veggies. Making a carrot memorable is much more challenging than scorching a rib eye.

[Chulanowa]

472. A man who can't cook is lying

We all know how to cook. Most of us are in fact excellent cooks.

We're just too polite to brag about it to the ladies.

I've never compared dick size with another guy. However there have been too many recipe contests to count. As well as of course, the gastrointestinal fortitude contests where we brag about hte most blindness-causing chilies we've ever eaten :D

[seabeyond]

481. that is cute. my before he was hubby bragged. and often had me over to show off... lol. nt

[alfredo]

612. Those of us with no money or fast car had to find something.

I'd match some guy's restored 69 Camero with my herb roasted veggies, grilled salmon, and homemade bread.

[seabeyond]

620. ah hahaha. hey, i had my own brand new camero. i didn't need a guys car.

but

i didn't cook, at all, ever. 6 months in my house before i even learned to turn on oven. i didn't know about expiration dates (hubby taught me). i was so surprised some things expired. fridge empty. freezer full of frozen dinners, lol.

[alfredo]

631. My wife could cook, but was totally burned out on cooking

and had learned some real bad habits from her years as a gymnast. She came from a house with six kids, so meals were high drama. Cooking triggers too much bad memories in her, so I cook. She does make the best, innovative salads and sandwiches though. She's much better at that, than I. Her chili is excellent, and she's not afraid of making it three alarm.

[seabeyond]

632. that is excellent.

over 16 yrs and watching hubby, last handful of years i have started practicing. going beyond my comfort zone. now we can enjoy it more together.

all thumbs up. :toast:

btw... your wife needs to go into cooking, and let me know about some of her sandwich recipes. i like to have different sandwiches for dinner cause i dont like sitting to full meals always. i need some new recipes. yours too.

[alfredo]

633. The cooking and baking forum here at DU is a wonderful

resource. I need to post there more often, but I don't.

Today I'm going to roast some potatoes and add them to a small beef stew.

[grantcart]

92. So I guess we have to wait a while for Mr. Scorpio's famous pickup lines. lol

k and r

[MrScorpio]

95. Well, you're going to have to wait a long time, my friend

Because, I don't have any pick up lines. I've never had any.


However, a friendly smile and "Hello" was a pretty effective opener for me in my old dating days.

[Nye Bevan]

106. THANK YOU for realizing that many male DUers need to be reminded that women are not "female dogs".

And that "rape is violence". And that we should not "stalk" women who we don't know. And that women "prefer to choose whom to have sex with". The women in the lives of all of these Neanderthal male DUers should be eternally grateful to you for taking the time to post this excellent advice.

[lumberjack_jeff]

108. See what I mean MrScorpio? n/t

[Codeine]

615. Sycophantic Underground. nt

[Fuzz]

132. I was stalked when I was younger, and I'm a male.

;)

[joshcryer]

109. Dear MrScorpio , I have this problem where if a pretty girl walks by my eyes, for a split second...

...cannot be averted. I've tried everything short of self-infliction of pain to prevent this behavior.

Any advice?

[MrScorpio]

120. Smile and say hi, if she smiles and say hi back to you...

Try not to appear like an idiot.

She'll let you know if she's interested.

I'm sure that you'll know what to do from there on out.

[pacalo]

110. I'm glad I took a peek -- those are some very kind, constructive words in regard to us women. :)

One other very important thing about women: our sexuality begins in our brains. Men are able to get right down to business, but women need mental pampering to get there.

:hi:

[MrScorpio]

121. That's absolutely true

The most important sex organ is the brain.

[femrap]

167. And some witty repartee

along w/ laughter is nice.

[distantearlywarning]

126. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Got it all in one, and it's a pity that there are still people out there who need this spelled out.

[awoke_in_2003]

145. Now, if someone...

would just send this along to Big Ben. Disclosure- I am a lifelong Steeler fan. The Steelers used to be a class organization, they need to become one again- the dirtbag Ben R. has to go. I am boycotting them until they do the right thing.

[MrScorpio]

147. Which really confuses me...

Because, I though that as a big time football hero, that the mountain was more than likely to come to Mohammed.


I guess that things don't always work out that way.

[distantearlywarning]

152. I don't get that part either.

He can't find any girls who *want* to have sex with him all of their own accord, so he has to coerce and force women? Makes no sense...

[femrap]

171. That's what gets him off.

He's a sicko.

[MrScorpio]

176. Yep... I think that you hit the head on the nail. nt

[awoke_in_2003]

153. he is a jock...

a lot of guys like him have a power trip going on. It is about power.

[MrScorpio]

154. True

But I'm also willing to bet that "action" came his way without much effort due to his status. All it takes is making enough public appearances in all the right places

[distantearlywarning]

150. Yeah, I have to basically agree with you.

I am very disillusioned about the whole thing. I'd just as soon they hired Dixon and Leftwich to start for the whole season and trade Ben somewhere else. For me to be a big-time fan, I need to be able to respect the team. :-(

[awoke_in_2003]

156. The first game I remember watching...

was the '72 season- I was 4. I put up with some very good years. Then I put up with Bubby Brister, Mark Malone, Cliff Stoudt, Neil O'Donnell (fuck you Neil, did you forget what color jerseys your teammates were wearing?), Kordell Stewart, Mike Tomczak, and Tommy Maddox. I have scene bad QB play before, no big deal. Truthfully, I think getting rid of Ben wouldn't be a big deal- just let Leftwich play. Guys like Ben play for the Raiders, not the Steelers.

[Ohio Joe]

128. You missed two

Good hygiene - Clean clothes, body and teeth will make up for a lot of ugly.

Don't look at their boobs when talking to them - There will be a time and a place when it is fine to look at them but that time and place is not when talking to them.

[kittykitty]

203. very good

[shanti]

131. k&r!

thank you for that, mr. scorpio! :hug:

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrScorpio]

143. Touche'

You really did some digging for that old gem, didn't you?


Good find.

[Chan790]

146. I'd argue that is my perogative.

I don't need or even want it to be baby's-ass smooth down there. It makes me feel like a pedo.

I trim my nose-hair and get my back waxed to look more attractive and it tends to please my lover, 1 1/2 of which are painful; I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that one might take 5 minutes out of their busy week with the Wahl trimmer to painlessly maintain the pelvic ground-cover if it makes me happy. :D

[Maine-ah]

159. I don't think that is judging.

I think it's personal preference. Some women like hairy men (I love 'em and my hubbie wears the hair shirt) and some women don't. Some like the fur down south and some don't. I personally groom the hoo cause I don't like it on myself. Plus the sensation while having sex is completely different for me when I'm bald.

[joshcryer]

177. Uh, I draw a line a proper hygine.

If I trim my pubes I expect the same of my partner.

[Lyric]

210. There's nothing unhygienic about pubic hair.

It's there for a reason, and some of us CAN'T shave it off. My skin down there is so incredibly sensitive and delicate that I break out in a horrible, painful, hideous-looking rash that lasts for over a week every time I remove the hair. I know that *some* women are lucky enough to be able to do this without a problem, but I'm not one of them--and I'm certainly not the only one. In fact, my dermatologist has specifically forbidden me from doing so. Thankfully my same-sex partner cares more for my health and comfort than about the aesthetics of my lady parts. So long as that whole area is kept clean with gentle soap and warm water every day, there's nothing at all "unhygienic" about having pubic hair.

[MrScorpio]

215. Well, it's purely a matter of aesthetics

Even if the implications may dwell into the medical

[NYC_SKP]

229. IMO, shaving as a hygenic requirement is a societal construction, like so many other things.

I like natural foods.

I like national parks.

I like natural bodies.

I can thing of dream weekends that involve all three!

:P

[joshcryer]

318. Eh, shaving is asthetic, trimming is hygenic, in my view.

I don't need to be leaving bits of my pubes around and neither does my partner. A simple trim does not affect comfort at all, but it does reduce pube dislocation.

[Iris]

883. seriously? A few dislocated pubes are going to cause infection and disease?

My lord, how can anyone of us even be alive what with all the dead skins cells and hair flying off our bodies every day.

[joshcryer]

313. What is with the reading comprehension of DUers? I didn't mention shaving.

Non trimmed pubic hair will produce more follicles that fall off in my experience.

[Lorien]

360. Why don't you rip them out at the roots? nt

[joshcryer]

416. I like my pubes. But DU's reading comprehension rivals that of FR.

[Odin2005]

560. To be honest, this guy thinks shaving pubes is CREEPY.

And guys that liked shaved pubes may have some pedophile tendencies.

[Name removed]

617. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

616. I won't judge, but I will clearly express my preferences.

Everyone has preferences, and mine is for no pubic hair. If a woman prefers huge biceps she won't be going out with me (I am the very definition of skinny), and that's clearly her prerogative. Why should I feel bad about having a preference? :shrug:

[KamaAina]

160. I can count the number of men I actually enjoy being around on my fingers

as for the women, you'd have to visualize an entire condo complex, like Melrose Place. :loveya:

Maybe it's because I, too, was raised in a "broken home" (always one of Mom's favorites, right up there with "out of wedlock" :sarcasm: ).

[Confusious]

169. MrScorpio's painfully obivious guide to the painfully obvious.nt

[SeattleGirl]

182. Unfortunately, his words are NOT painfully obvious to a number

of men, including men on DU. Posting on a left-leaning internet site does not automatically make one a respectful person.

You might want to give the OP another read, and also take a look at the responses to it, especially by the female folks on DU.

[Confusious]

225. I read the OP, my statement stands, unless of course

You can come up with some posts where guys have talked shit ( she's got good body parts, she should do xxxx to me, these are examples so you can find them, they don't count as being that sort of post. ) about women, talked about raping women or said she owes me sex.

I am also sure these type of posts are against the rules, and that the post and person will quickly be deleted, and therefore not be someone who spends a lot of time here, and not a regular DU guy.

Otherwise.....

[SeattleGirl]

232. There are many subtle ways that men are disrespectful to

women. Believe me, I see it and/or experience it every day.

And as far as coming up with posts on DU, if posts were written that were full of such blatant things, they would have been alerted on and probably zapped, so I cannot honor your request.

But if you don't think that happens in the real world, you are sadly mistaken.

[Confusious]

240. I knew you would bring up the real world

Of course, I never made any statement about that. I thought about it, but decided not to. I thought you might think better of me. I was wrong.

It tells me what sort of mindset you have that you would think that I don't think that these things happen in the real world.

You think I'm a typical guy, I don't have a clue, and I do the things that he lists in his OP.

You would be completely wrong.

[SeattleGirl]

246. Fine. Just don't presume that you know me, mmmkay?

You know nothing about my mindset, so kindly don't say that again.

You also don't know whether I think you're a "typical" guy.

I was, however, addressing what you said.

[Confusious]

251. Well, you made it painfully obvious that you thought you knew me.

"But if you don't think that happens in the real world, you are sadly mistaken."

[SeattleGirl]

254. "if" is the operative word in my response.

I did not say "you absolutely think that".

I said "if".

[Name removed]

258. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Confusious]

281. Well, that's ironic. nt

[defendandprotect]

376. One thing that males certainly recognize is the power of ridicule... especially when

the it's them who are being ridiculed -- disrespected -- !!

If you observe that in males -- especially in groups -- you'll notice how

quickly any attempt to ridicule any one of them is put down by ALL of them.

But, that doesn't stop them given any opportunity to put down females --

[lumberjack_jeff]

277. Then perhaps the OP could have pointed out some of the subtleties to the guys.

It didn't, because;
a) guys weren't the intended audience
b) advice wasn't the purpose

[potassiumnitrate]

289. He's been outed now

Look below. This thread is getting more hilarious by the minute.

:rofl:

[Confusious]

305. All I have to say about that is what my grandmother would say.

"Oh dear"

[defendandprotect]

379. I think the cautions come first . . . probably "subleties" in another thread now that you've . . .

requested it?

[Supply Side Jesus]

510. *snicker*

:rofl:

[edbermac]

188. This would be better off being posted on Free Republic, Mr S.

Not that it would have much effect.

[MrScorpio]

191. DU's threads have a habit of getting around the net

Who knows who's reading this right now

[CLANG]

197. Shit! I've been doing the opposite all these years!

:wtf:

[Sparkly]

200. All true, but I think there's more than "sex" involved in the dynamic.

I think you're taking a few things for granted, and I'm guessing it's because you're a good guy without the hang-ups and fears that underlie a lot of truly offensive behavior.

I don't think sex, rejection, looks, social stupidity, etc. are really the underlying problem with harassment and other forms of resentment. I think it's about hostility.

When I was in the city and being harassed to the point I hated going outside, I felt the message was, basically, "Go home." It never happened if I was with a man. But a woman alone? "Go home where you belong."

I think it's about control, social mores about women's "place," punishment and manipulation whether conscious or not. It's hostility.

From your post, I think you (and probably most guys here) are too decent to grasp that, but in my experience, I think that's what it's about.

[provis99]

208. following your rules is a good way to convince women you're gay.

nice guys finish last. I know.

[MrScorpio]

213. Well, let's say that I've never come across anyone who thinks that I'm gay

Or is that what they call gentlemen in your neck of the woods?

[potassiumnitrate]

216. lol

You just put it better than I ever did.

[MrScorpio]

219. C'mon, you're a much better person than to ascribe to soft-homophobia

Right?

[defendandprotect]

380. Showing human respect to females is being "gay"---?????

or did you mean not raping them is being "gay" . . . ???

[Maru Kitteh]

972. Treating women like human beings is "gay?" WTF? Which part exactly?

Please enlighten us.

[mopinko]

211. dude, you need to find another hobby. opening cans of worms

is only gonna bring you grief.

[MrScorpio]

214. I have opinions

And I have no qualms about expressing them.

No one has to agree with me.

Frankly, not speaking up about problems I see would cause me more grief... Because my silence would consent to the wrongs.

[provis99]

222. guy, you told men to treat women like their mothers or sisters.

If any guy takes your advice, and treats women he's romantically or sexually interested in like they were his mother or sister, he is going to have one massive incest complex, as well as convincing the woman that he needs a mommy, not a girlfriend. You've got to treat a woman truthfully; she has the right to know whether you're interested in her romantically or not, otherwise you're just clowning with her.

[SeattleGirl]

226. I don't think the OP was implying that you should not be truthful.

What IS it with some folks responding to this thread? Y'all seem to think that treating a woman with respect, regardless of your interest in her, is equal to wanting a mommy figure or that it means you're gay.

I really don't get this.

Are you saying that you cannot be respectful toward a woman that you're interested in?

[seabeyond]

235. i am telling you. a decade of all women becoming mens w****s as their own personal sexuality

has magnified to infinity and beyond.....thru their total awesomeness of prowess

[provis99]

239. you might have a different definition of respect than the OP.

By respect, the OP means basically treating women like fragile, Victorian, strange creatures that are uncomfortable around men, because men are sexually-aggressive pigs, and we need to hide this from women.
His solution is to pretend that we have no sexual interest in women, so we can slyly seduce them to get what we want. My response is that if you convince a woman you have no interest in her, she will conclude that you have no interest in her, likely because you are a nice gay guy.

Are you saying if you met a guy you were attracted to, and let it be known to him, but he never did anything but be a polite, distant guy, you wouldn't think he was a gay guy who just wanted a female friend? Several of the earlier female posters have already alluded to the fact that the polite, restrained guys they met weren't interested in them.

[MrScorpio]

247. So are you fully erect when approach women first?

Or do you wait until later?

[defendandprotect]

383. Are you saying the only way to let a female know you're interested is by

disrespecting her, harassing her, or raping her ??

Wow -- talk about confusion!!

[joshcryer]

403. How do you infer that nonsense?

[defendandprotect]

431. Do you disagree with respect for women, not harassing them....

and not raping them . . . Make clear what you're saying!!

[joshcryer]

436. Does the person you're responding to? If so, where do they even remotely imply that?

[defendandprotect]

443. Poster is in disagreement with the OP ... let's find out exactly where ...

and why --

[joshcryer]

526. I consider it quite deceitful to put words in others' mouths without having a reason.

[seabeyond]

233. so, it is much better to treat that woman you have seen for a second or two, like your whore

and not so much your mother or sister, ... you know, like a person.

[provis99]

241. so that's how you see women, either as the "madonna" or the "whore"?

You're just about ready for a stint on Jersey Shore.

[seabeyond]

250. ah.. suck my cock, is merely the endearment to the woman to let her know you are sexually

interested in her.

i want to fuck you in the ass is your sweet talk

show me your tits.

like your ass

bend over for me, baby.


is it how i see women? really

and to talk to women respectfully is creating the madonna/virgin? really?

[joshcryer]

430. I did not read anything by the poster implying any such nonsense.

[seabeyond]

434. not that i havent said it before, i will say again. this thread started last night

it was in reference to a thread about a cartoon. it had all these references in the cartoon. we were talking about that. men were telling us we are not treated that way. it is not an issue for us. they were being picked on. and generally dismissed.

that is what this thread is about

[joshcryer]

440. Yes, I am fully aware of that (which is why this thread isn't honest advice).

I participated in that cartoon thread. You likely believe I am one of those horrible men who thinks that it's OK for women to be leered at (but you won't be able to provide a statement to those ends).

But the person you are responding to did not say that "suck my cock" was acceptable, and you will not be able to provide any evidence that said poster believes that.

[seabeyond]

457. what we are addressing is the men that say that shit to women. the op is saying

guys, dont say that shit to women. this poster is saying, quit telling me to treat women i am sexually interested in as mothers and sisters. (you wont find the op said that either)

so, someone you dont know, you dont treat them like a person, you treat them like your whore.... suck my cock, i want to fuck you in the ass, ect...

that is what we are talking about.

IF the poster is admit, not endorsing that behavior, then the poster can say, he would never endorse that behavior.

[provis99]

517. whereas you appear to be saying,

if men have any comment to offer that doesn't accept the OP completely, then they are in favor of rape.

[seabeyond]

521. no. nt

[joshcryer]

535. People have already, actually, accused the poster, who disagrees, of being for rape, etc.

[seabeyond]

538. i think what i have seen is people asking htis particular poster to clarify what exactly he is

opposed to in op

no

rape
respect to women
cat calling

if i am remembering what i have read. and he is not answering.

i think he has been asked a number of times. but again, from memory. not gonna re read thread. and tired. i am off to bed

[joshcryer]

586. Yes, he's being incredulious.

For good reason, I think, because the first assumptions were things like "you must be for rape." I wouldn't string people along like that though and I don't know why I'm coming to their defense except that I don't see anything immediately wrong with what he has said.

[seabeyond]

602. bullshit. it was because he went after the op and people want to know what part he has a problem

with. not a tough question. but he wont answer.

[joshcryer]

529. There is nothing that the poster has said, so far, to indicate that they mean that at all.

The OP writes, "Ninth, if you wouldn't say something to your own mom or sister, you probably shouldn't say it to a strange woman in a bar or on the street."

I would not say to my mother or sister "are you single?" I would not say to my mother or sister "you have really pretty eyes." I would not say to my mother or sister "can I pay for your drink?"

[seabeyond]

532. thanks for point that out. i looked and looked. but didnt see it

i dont know why i over looked it.

k

you got him on one.

hoorah

lordy.... and it isnt like you really clever dudes cant figure out what he is saying. but really, lets play pretend.

so high five, you won that one.

[joshcryer]

597. Look at his response to what I consider better advice.

I don't think he in particular is all that garbage you people intentionally called him.

[MrScorpio]

234. That wasn't my point

The point is to treat especially women strangers with the same due deference and respect in which that one would treat their own mother or sister.

What happens behind closed doors can be another matter altogether

[provis99]

245. if it wasn't your point, then why did you make it your point in the OP?

Now you're backtracking.

[MrScorpio]

252. Basically, my point is it's better to be a gentleman than an asshole with women that you don't know

Women tend to be turned off by assholish of behavior while they're just going about their business.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

767. Respectful does not mean asexual

Some guys have only two modes: "horny caveman" and "how-I-treat-my-grandmother."

[SeattleGirl]

776. +1000!

Well said, Lydia!

[Amerigo Vespucci]

694. Ralph Waldo Emerson said it best...

...for some people in this world (I'm one of them, and I believe Mr. Scorpio is another), not opening cans of worms when we have something to say is what brings the grief.

Or as John Mellencamp sang, "I do things my way and I pay a high price."

From Emerson's essay Self-Reliance:

To believe your own thought, to believe that what is true for you in your private heart is true for all men, — that is genius. Speak your latent conviction, and it shall be the universal sense; for the inmost in due time becomes the outmost,—— and our first thought is rendered back to us by the trumpets of the Last Judgment. Familiar as the voice of the mind is to each, the highest merit we ascribe to Moses, Plato, and Milton is, that they set at naught books and traditions, and spoke not what men but what they thought. A man should learn to detect and watch that gleam of light which flashes across his mind from within, more than the lustre of the firmament of bards and sages. Yet he dismisses without notice his thought, because it is his. In every work of genius we recognize our own rejected thoughts: they come back to us with a certain alienated majesty. Great works of art have no more affecting lesson for us than this. They teach us to abide by our spontaneous impression with good-humored inflexibility then most when the whole cry of voices is on the other side. Else, to-morrow a stranger will say with masterly good sense precisely what we have thought and felt all the time, and we shall be forced to take with shame our own opinion from another.

There is a time in every man's education when he arrives at the conviction that envy is ignorance; that imitation is suicide; that he must take himself for better, for worse, as his portion; that though the wide universe is full of good, no kernel of nourishing corn can come to him but through his toil bestowed on that plot of ground which is given to him to till. The power which resides in him is new in nature, and none but he knows what that is which he can do, nor does he know until he has tried. Not for nothing one face, one character, one fact, makes much impression on him, and another none. This sculpture in the memory is not without preestablished harmony. The eye was placed where one ray should fall, that it might testify of that particular ray. We but half express ourselves, and are ashamed of that divine idea which each of us represents. It may be safely trusted as proportionate and of good issues, so it be faithfully imparted, but God will not have his work made manifest by cowards. A man is relieved and gay when he has put his heart into his work and done his best; but what he has said or done otherwise, shall give him no peace. It is a deliverance which does not deliver. In the attempt his genius deserts him; no muse befriends; no invention, no hope.

Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string. Accept the place the divine providence has found for you, the society of your contemporaries, the connection of events. Great men have always done so, and confided themselves childlike to the genius of their age, betraying their perception that the absolutely trustworthy was seated at their heart, working through their hands, predominating in all their being.

http://www.emersoncentral.com/selfreliance.htm

[MrScorpio]

695. Thanks, my man

I am honored to have you by my side.

[Name removed]

223. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[provis99]

228. finally, someone who makes sense!

You just got everything right! Wish you'd posted earlier!

[SeattleGirl]

237. It is you who are being offensive and condescending.

Does it make you feel like a "man", throwing that word around like that?

Don't think I don't get what you're saying: the "mighty man", swinging his thing around. That's ALL you got out of this.

[provis99]

242. yes, attack my "manhood". How childish. Do you have Penis Envy?

[pipi_k]

248. NO!!! hahaahahahah!!!!

OK, when discussing their manhoods, men should never use quotation marks around the word "manhood".

hahahahahah

:rofl:

[provis99]

257. all men have questions about their "manhood"!

That's why we peek in the gym changeroom!

[pipi_k]

267. Calling it your "manhood"...

It's like calling a mystery meat sandwich a "chicken" sandwich.


hahahahah

er...OK. Never mind

I guess you had to be there.

:rofl:

[SeattleGirl]

249. Not at all.

I am quite happy being a woman.

And I was attacking your attitude, and that's the image that came into my head when I read your ugly post.

[defendandprotect]

386. Since all life begins as female, your "manhood" was once a vagina ....

Are you sure you don't have vagina envy?

[Cherchez la Femme]

549. Oh yes, so very many of we women want penes!

Bar T* of course :)

Seriously dude, Freud was WAY off base on that, it's been debunked for many decades! :rofl:

[seabeyond]

552. didnt read. is he saying we want a penis? hey, i am told they think with it, have no control over

it, fuck up their lives because of it, rules their world...

not good selling points.

[Cherchez la Femme]

578. No, just gets them in trouble

Yet somehow women are envious of & want (at least!) one

For a fact I can attest that a penis, dildo, or even banana is in no way necessary nor needed for an awesome female orgasm -- something they will never believe :rofl:

[pipi_k]

635. The only times I ever wanted one

were when I peed on my shoes because I didn't want to squat in the mystery greenery along the side of the road.

But now that I have a FUD (Female Urinary Device), I can pee standing up and never have to squat again.

And never have to wish for some dangling pieces of flesh and tissue flopping around my groin area...


:7

[pipi_k]

244. Please forgive me...

for laughing, but the mental image of "me, Tarzan" swinging his thing around (in the jungle maybe) is cracking me up...

thanks for the laugh...

:7

[Zanzobar]

278. Trust me

That's exactly what they were talking about. It should be obvious that each uses his own method to score.

[MrScorpio]

243. Well, if you treat women as if they're trophies, I can see where you're coming from

I just don't have to agree with it

[provis99]

253. I think the poster was mocking the general attitude here

Not implying that he himself thought of women as "trophies". I think he was zinging you as the one who seduces women by treating them as princesses.
Overall though, your post was a good one, in that it has provoked a lively discussion, some disagreements and agreements. Recommended.

[MrScorpio]

256. Like I said, I don't expect everyone to agree with me

However, listening to the women posters is much more advisable

[Zanzobar]

285. I was. It was apropos, though deleted.

[JVS]

260. You win the thread.

[sailor65]

255. For somebody preaching to us "Guys" about the objectification

of women, you do a bit of it yourself.

I'm not sure whether the rules allow me to directly link it, so I won't. But, for anybody interested in following the OP's breadcrumbs, I'll give you this hint; MySpace, Topmost video, :40 and 1:09. They sure look like objects to me.


How about you leave it to those of us "Guys" that actually DO cherish women?

[Supply Side Jesus]

259. *snicker*

:rofl:

[Name removed]

261. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrScorpio]

270. Well, Redqueen wasn't offended

I think that she'd tell me if she were

[MrScorpio]

263. Surely, you're kidding?

You've got something against models posing with cars?

You do know that I live in Detroit, don't you?

Have you ever been to a car show?


Sure, check out the video. By the way... I'M wearing less clothes than the models in one of the pics

http://www.myspace.com/djmrscorpio247

And again, take my caveats to heart. If you're treating women fine, that's all good.

[sailor65]

273. Yes, I know where you live

and more about what you do than you might think. I also live here.

Have I ever been to a car show? Let's see, I've been designing automotive system for 15+ years, so yeah, I've been to a few. I'm completely familiar with the process of hiring models to pull in the visitors. And whether or not I have anything against objectification at the show, the point is that IT IS objectification. If you are fine with it, great, your business, but don't nauseate us with your hypocritical "How to treat women" garbage.

[MrScorpio]

286. So you object to the entire process of hiring pretty models to sell cars?

You are aware that the models are paid professionals, right?

It's their choice to be paid and put in such a position, am I correct? It's their will to apply their attractiveness in an endeavor to sell cars for their employer? Like... they're willfully getting a PAYCHECK for the gig?

Tell me, Oh Grand Inquisitor, how is what a paid professional model posing with a shiny new car the same as a strange woman getting unwanted harassment in the street?

Because I just don't see it.

[sailor65]

309. Wow, fire up the rationalization machine!

Yup, they get paid. As do beauty pageant contestants, swimsuit models, GoDaddy girls, Hooters girls, and prostitutes. I'm sure JonBenet Ramsey and her coworkers got paid in some form.

But hey, since they all get paid, they are not objects, right? Those who partake are not objectifiers.

And those who do partake, and then tell other men how to behave, are certainly not hypocritical pieces of shit, because the girls got paid!

And by the way, for each trade show I've done, when the decision was mine to make, we didn't use models.

And it's not "Grand Inquisitor" to call you out in your disingenuousness; the OP was the "Grand Inquisitor" if there was one.

[MrScorpio]

316. The point is all about choice

I hope that you get the point

Whether of not a woman chooses to become employed in a job that would, if fact, objectify her... You should respect her choice if she did or not take the job.

If a woman chooses not to be objectified by an asshole on the street, you should respect that choice equally

Again, it's all about a woman's own choice



Or do you think that women should be protected from the choices that they make?

[sailor65]

321. Right about now, your flight computer

is screaming "Pull UP.....Pull Up."

You probably ought to reach down and pull that handle next to your seat, while there still might be somebody here who believes you.

[MrScorpio]

331. Well, frankly, you have an agenda to discredit me

In order for you to do that, I would have to portray myself as something that I'm not

You show me posts that I've made in the past and I freely admit that I posted them

Were they in poor taste? Absolutely.

But what you completely misrepresent is the spirit in which they were made.

I've never stated that I wasn't prone to making posts in poor taste, especially in The Lounge of all places.

That entire forum is testament to poor taste and I'm not the only one to play that game.



Today's OP, however was made in GD and was made in complete seriousness.

Now if you want to continue to play this silly little gotcha game of yours, have at it.


Like I said, I have nothing to hide.

[SeattleGirl]

334. Hmmmmm, so you are assuming that you speak for all of us

when you say "while there still might be somebody here who believes you"?

[sailor65]

344. Of course not

otherwise I would have said "Nobody believes you."

An OP was written lecturing men on respecting women by a man who has shown himself to not respect women. How can you wonder why some men here would react very negatively to that?

[SeattleGirl]

353. The men who are reacting "negatively" are actually reacting

like little school yard bullies. "Oh, look what he said SIX YEARS ago! Neener neener neener!"

If I thought the OP was bullshitting in his OP, I would have flat out told him so, and I think he knows that.

And I've read a lot of his posts over the years, and I know that sometimes he says things that fall flat, with me at least.

Doesn't mean he didn't learn.

What have YOU learned?

[sailor65]

374. No, you're incorrect

I didn't post his old DU threads although they are very telling. I responded with a post reflecting a video (And I only mentioned 1) he has up RIGHT NOW which objectifies women. That is a case of current events, not 6 years past events.

You can't, in all fairness, condemn me for condemning an OP written about objectification by a man who is an objectifier at this very moment. Can you say you don't take exception to his rationalization that they haven't been objectified as long as they got paid?

So unless you are saying he learned his lesson in the last 38 minutes, it's pretty clear he's still the same guy.

What I learned about respecting and cherishing women I had learned by the age of 7 and didn't forget. So yeah, I have a problem with a hypocritical OP.

[Cherchez la Femme]

555. Attack the messenger

when you have no good argument refuting the OP.

Nothing new, although this used to be seen much more on Free Republic, not so much on DU
until relatively recently.

For people who *must* beat the GOP -- and it doesn't matter how much to the right the Democratic Party (Official) has swayed-- it's passing strange to see the attitude 'if you can't beat them, join (their tactics)' :eyes:

[Odin2005]

563. It is so pathetic how immature many of my fellow men are.

it seems like in our society chivalry is dead and imature crudity is the norm! :puke:

[MrScorpio]

356. So now you're speaking in behalf of women, some of which were in the Lounge with me

So where were you when the egregious posts were made?

Aren't you kind of late in the game?

Obviously, the female Lounge posters we're completely misled by my deception at the time.

Thank goodness that we have Johnny come lately moralists like yourself to set a sexist pig like me on the straight and narrow.


This is what makes DU great!

[sailor65]

368. The thread is big and you lost track

I didn't post your old DU threads. Although they do tell a lot about you. No, my post referred to your objectification RIGHT NOW. Your MySpace video shows that you have no problem partaking in female objectification TODAY, not 2, 4, 6 years ago, but RIGHT NOW.

[MrScorpio]

382. Oh, please

If you can't tell the difference between the work of professional models and the harassment of strange women, then you're being obtuse and absurd to make ridiculous point.

It's not about me and making it about me was NEVER the point.

The point is about women being free to make their own choices, whether on not they choose to be a model, or a stripper, or a porn star, or even a CEO of a multinational corporation.

If they choose NOT to be harassed in the street, then all men are obligated to honor that choice.

As long as you're willing to play this game of piling on and endorsing the poster who did dig up my old Lounge posts in a feeble effort to discredit me, then you're just as guilty as he is.


Don't divorce yourself from that now... One would make the mistake of thinking that you're not willing to play in the sandbox anymore.

[sailor65]

414. I'll see your "Please" and raise you a "You're welcome"

I won't divorce myself from it. That poster opened a real window onto you. You say you've changed; who knows? From what I've seen, those kinds of behaviors are pretty persistent. I still agree with the idea that your old posts say something about you.

If you look at my history, you already know that I'm not someone who thinks women should be harassed in the street, or anywhere else, so that point was unnecessary for me to "Get" from you. The problem is, you have backpedaled just enough to make sure behaviors you yourself exhibit are excluded from the "Spirit" of your OP. As long as objectification is paid for, you're good with it. We now know that about you, and thank you for the education.

You see, I don't go half-assed when it comes to this problem. I don't limit my respect to the woman walking down the street. It carries into all areas of my life. And if you think that paid models at the car show, or strippers, or prostitutes are not women being objectified by those that partake, then you have a long way to go before you can complain about "Piling on," or before you can tell me I'm the obtuse and absurd one.

[seabeyond]

423. yup, see sailor, this one.... lol lol

is just gonna have to give you a huge pat on the back. (i am such a switch hitter) teasing.

good post and i agree. as far as objectifying is.... objectifying. but then that is my thing.

[MrScorpio]

429. That's the problem with taking a total moralist tack

A complete disregard of freedom of choice. Telling women what's best for them. (By the way, I hope that you've noted that I've neglect to do that very thing in my OP)

I'm sure that if you were around back in 1920, you'd be heading up the local Temperance League.

[sailor65]

444. Now you're just getting tired.....

and drifting. That's not even close to what I meant. And since I'm also getting tired, I want to avoid getting increasingly chippy.

Neither of us is going to sway the other. I don't think I have anything more of value to add to the thread. One poster was kind enough to say she understood where I was coming from, and sometimes, one is more than enough to make the whole effort worthwhile.

[MrScorpio]

459. No, your point is that no woman should have a choice about their own decisions

If their choice results in any kind of objectification (to someone who's offended by it like yourself), and they shouldn't be able do that.

Tell me, have you ever tried this line of argument on, let's say, a sex worker?

Because, if you have, I would pay to see them laugh in your face.

Even an exotic dancer knows when her wishes are not being respected.

I can not see why this does not make any sense to you.

[joshcryer]

378. Yeah, the most posts you have the more likely your behavior is exempt from social criticism.

That's just a common theme on all forums and social sites on the internet. Once you hit 100k you'll be able to eat uncircumcized prostitute pornographic babies that blew up the moon for dinner.

[MrScorpio]

390. Well, they're quite tasty with Franks Red Hot sauce

Not that you would ever dare to find out for yourself.

[joshcryer]

395. I prefer my dead featuses circumcized, tyvm.

[defendandprotect]

393. What you are making obvious is that you're aggravated with the OP ....and

trying to attack the messenger --

Why not come clean on just what you hate most -- ??

Being respectful to females -- treating them as human -- ???

Not harassing them?

Or not raping them?

[potassiumnitrate]

407. The OP didn't mean what he wrote!

That's her point. He wrote a bunch of lovely, flowery stuff for all of you to swallow and you swallowed it.

Hell, I can start an OP saying that I'm completely blind to the way women look. Totally and completely! I only look at her personality and looks don't matter at all! I'd be lying my ass off, but I bet it'd make a lot of the below average looking women here feel oh so good.

At least the rest of us are honest. That's REAL respect for women, not the fucking bullshit from the OP.

[seabeyond]

424. damn, i dont think there is a single post, one way or another, you have not insulted women. poster

above just swears du has no males like you on this board.

oh looky.... yes we do

[defendandprotect]

425. Again,what do you disagree with? Respecting women, not harassing women, or

not raping women -- ???

That's the debate -- not the messenger --


Hell, I can start an OP saying that I'm completely blind to the way women look. Totally and completely! I only look at her personality and looks don't matter at all! I'd be lying my ass off,

Hell, you can start any thread you want here -- tell us of your great success with women --

I'm sure every male here will be glued to the post!


but I bet it'd make a lot of the below average looking women here feel oh so good.

That's a presumption on your part -- just as I'm presuming you're below average --

and not very intelligent . . . !!

At least the rest of us are honest. That's REAL respect for women, not the fucking bullshit from the OP.

You're not honest, you're pissed that a male wrote this OP, acknowledging what goes on in the

real world -- !!

[potassiumnitrate]

438. Get a clue

His posting history has outed his OP as having low credibility. I'm not pissed that a male wrote it. I don't CARE. I'm not pissed at all. I'm pissing myself laughing, though, at the sheer hilarity of this entire thread.

Let's put it this way: If *I* did actually start a thread like I described above, how would YOU respond to it now after having read my replies in this thread? Would you say "Thank you! I agree!" or would you point out that I'm full of shit?

[MrScorpio]

477. Well, I take it from your response that you object to respecting women

I think that it's pretty clear to everyone here.

[joshcryer]

531. Yes, some people have that bizarre but unsupported opinion here.

While I have learned in the past not to defend a new poster, so far I have not seen any evidence that the poster "objects to respecting women."

[seabeyond]

534. are you fuckin serious. every single post is an insult to women one way or another. nt

[MrScorpio]

536. I think "Get a clue" says it all

As if women don't know what constitutes disrespect to them by others

[joshcryer]

581. They apparently don't, putting words in the posters mouth.

If they could quote an instance of the poster saying that, they most certainly would do so. They can't.

[potassiumnitrate]

601. Dude, stop

Seriously, man. Nobody believes you anymore.

[SeattleGirl]

426. Well, thank you very much for telling us what he's really like.

I mean, those of us who have been on DU for years, and who have read his posts not only in GD, but in the Lounge too, should just throw ourselves at your feet in gratitude that the error of our ways has now been pointed out too us.

Oh, we have just been too blind for words, I do declare!

:eyes:

[Cherchez la Femme]

559. And with such a length of time & post count!

Impressive! Convincing!

Not!

[MrScorpio]

471. Well, if you think that respecting women is BS...

Then you're free to start you own OP addressing that very theme for yourself

[sailor65]

427. You're right AND you're wrong

You're right about the OP. I am absolutely annoyed with it. Because it was written by someone who does not practice what he wrote.

You're wrong about me and what I hate (Being respectful to females, treating them as human). In fact you couldn't be MORE wrong if you tried. I won't eat your lunch for that, you don't know me, so how could you know better? I doubt you've ever seen my posts on this topic, but if you had you'd see who I am. And who I am is exactly the reason a hypocritical OP gets under my skin the way this one did.

[potassiumnitrate]

282. LOL!

I KNEW it!

Ladies, you've been punked.

[seabeyond]

300. no. this thread is not a hero worship of op. i have read his posts in the past. the discussion is

on what he wrote. those words are valid and it is what we are discussing. so no.... we have not been punked. many of us have been on here a long long time. we know the posters, and are able to assimilate.

[Cherchez la Femme]

561. Thank you for instructing us,

you keep telling we womenfolk on how we've been fooled by our own lying eyes and experience.
Perhaps you have such wimmin trouble is that you wish to make them wear a burqua

...and probably from Goodwill, no less. :eyes:


You've been put on ignore, but until I totally refresh this page I still get to read your Patriarchal, Misogynist wisdom.

Time to do that now. Way past time to see PotNit as :+

[Name removed]

268. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrScorpio]

275. I never said that I was a saint

If you think that I did, I apologize for giving that impression

[Nye Bevan]

279. Don't apologize to me. Apologize to the women you were objectifying (nt)

[MrScorpio]

293. Do you plan on tracking done every other person in those threads and demanding the same

In for a penny, in for a pound, I say.

[Nye Bevan]

295. Only the ones who start preachy self-righteous threads implying that male DUers don't know

how to treat women.

[defendandprotect]

400. Why don't you tell us where you disagree? Respect, harassment, rape? Instead of ...

trying to attack the messenger?

In fact, why not start another thread telling us how you succeed with females --

I'm sure every male here will be glued to the post and dying to learn your secrets!!

[Name removed]

409. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

420. How about I PM you an "alert" -- ??

[potassiumnitrate]

302. Dude, you got busted

It was a nice try, though.

[MrScorpio]

349. Well bravo

I'm sure that you're now free to harass strange women at your leisure.

[SeattleGirl]

355. LOL! Nice one, MrS!

:thumbsup:

[Confusious]

370. That was a stretch

Maybe you should change your your name to "the lawgiver sent by god to men on how to treat women" and then maybe you you can make that statement.

You'll have to make it rain frogs or part a sea first though.

[MrScorpio]

384. I'd rather be Yul Bryner as Ramses

He was much better looking

[Cherchez la Femme]

566. And maybe

the title(s) of "the lawgiver sent by god to men on how to treat women" should be bestowed upon you and your company of tag-team bullies; added with a new Commandment: Thou shalt not say anything bad about Man, the Gender, Made in God's Own Image not like some lousy rib which came from Man anyways.


After all, you've been just as,

no, more

opinionated as Mr.S, but rude and childish,
and your shared humanity and respect for all human beings is obviously sorely lacking. Moreover your posts have not been to help or edify but to criticize, crow and denigrate the OP.

Congrats, you should(n't) be proud! :hi:

[Confusious]

648. rude and childish?

I take my cue from those whom I answer.

Obviously, you haven't read any of my posts on this thread. I've been more then polite, I've even defended him on one occasion.

I won't be dictated to about how to treat women by a hypocrite.

[MrScorpio]

651. Well, you're entitled to defend yourself as you see fit

And of course, you can take my advice or leave it.

Despite it all, I hope that things work out for you in the meanwhile.

[Confusious]

653. It doesn't feel like "advice."

It feels more like "Do you still beat your wife/husband? Here's some tips on how to stop."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

[MrScorpio]

654. I wrote it specifically to elicit either one of two responses

Concurrence or defensiveness.

Needless to say, it worked exactly as I planned it.

[Confusious]

655. Maybe

But if you ask that to someone who doesn't beat their wife, you can still elicit defensiveness. How will you take that? as an affirmation that that they beat their wife?

Loaded question is an informal fallacy.<1> It is committed when someone asks a question that:

1. presupposes something that has not been proven or accepted by all the people involved (a complex question) and
2. contains controversial assertions and/or loaded language.

This fallacy is often used rhetorically, so that the question limits direct replies to be those that serve the questioner's agenda

[MrScorpio]

656. Well, my answer to "when did you stop beating your wife?" is

I never started.

Such as something that never began would make the point of the question moot. Especially, if rhetoric is all that exists as "proof".

Similarly, a person who has never harassed, but concurs with the sentiment, would more than likely choose concurrence over defensiveness.

Defensiveness creates all kinds of other problems on its own, as plainly demonstrated in this thread.

Yep, it would appear that I painted some folks in a corner, no doubt about it...

But, in all actuality, they did all the painting by themselves by their answers, I just handed them the brush.

[Confusious]

660. No, you never handed anyone a brush

You made the corner and placed them in the "all men rape women and take what they want, except for me" corner and let them try to figure a way out.

I for one don't like being trapped. It also creates defensiveness and accusations, and goes downhill from there.

[MrScorpio]

661. But, wouldn't have been much easier to simply concur with the sentiment?

And leave it at that.

The post was not an accusation that all men rape. Frankly, that's a ridiculous argument in order to throw the validity of the message off track.

The purpose was to plainly state that the depiction of harassment of women by way of that cartoon is, in fact, a correct one. Clearly, anyone who objects to that depiction establishes that they're pursuing their own agenda.

Besides, the OP is actually an observation, not a loaded question. So either, concurrence or objection would be the most suitable replies. Whatever is chosen determines the poster's position.

Choice is everything, you know.

Clearly, you're mixing your metaphors here.

[Confusious]

664. You addressed your OP to the men of DU

Acquiesce to the statement would be an admission of guilt to something I have never done.

Are you saying I should plead guilty to a crime I never committed just because I'm a man? and yes, I use "crime" because in my eyes, that's what it is.

I did go overboard in saying rape, but "all men harass women" is what you want me to admit to. Including myself, excluding you.

I thought it was "advice" now it's an "observation"?

[MrScorpio]

665. I excoriated those who objected to the point of the cartoon as being clueless...

To the plight of women being harassed.

I believe that my point was quite clear... Especially, to the women posters, by way of their favorable reaction to my OP.

Whether or not any of the objectors had harassed women in the past is not for me to say.

One could either concur with the sentiment of our fellow women Duers, or exercise a measure of male privilege and call the veracity of their collective experiences into question and thus, face the consequences.

What if the very same OP was posted word for word by a woman? Would that make the observation any less valid?

As a man, I felt that it's best for the message to be relayed to other men from one of their own kind, because I know that the reaction to a woman delivering it would elicit an even more vile and sexist reaction than the ones already witnessed.

Agreeing with the sentiment has not caused other male posters to be saddled with guilt, or even forced them to stipulate that they're admitting to it.

Why does it have to be any different for you?

[Confusious]

666. I don't call any woman's experience into question

Though I would say, after living in the smaller cities of the United States most of my life, I get the feeling it happens mostly in the large cities.

"What if the very same OP was posted word for word by a woman? Would that make the observation any less valid?"

No, it would make it more valid, since it was posted by a woman.

"vile and sexist reaction than the ones already witnessed."

Which ones would those be? I've read it from head to toe, maybe I'm just clueless ( Seeing as I'm not a woman, and wasn't raised by women exclusively ). Beyond those that were deleted, of course. and which were also a small part.

"Agreeing with the sentiment has not caused other male posters to be saddled with guilt, or even forced them to stipulate that they're admitting to it."

Maybe, just maybe, they don't have the same reaction to being called a bully as I do ( bullying, harassing, same difference ), being as I was bullied so often in school and by a parent for so many years. Again, you weren't just throwing shit out there, you addressed you post to the men specifically. You have no idea what history people have that will make them react the way they do, and to say all who react badly must harass women is just throwing a wide net, which is sure to piss people off, and beyond stupid.

I would also have the same reaction to being called selfish.

[MrScorpio]

667. Ok, let's get down to brass tacks...

Do you agree with this cartoon's depiction or not?

[Confusious]

669. This cartoon is not the point

Your post is.

But just because I know you won't let it go, yes, it happens, though I have never heard people yell such things on the street, and my friends have not done such things when I am with them, nor have I ever done it myself.

It is rude.

[MrScorpio]

671. The point of my post was to call into account those who objected to the cartoon

That's what it was all about. Nothing less, nothing more.

Those who raised their objections to it each have their own particular reasons why.

The OP is a demonstration by a man, such as myself, that harassment of women by other men should NOT be excused. Harassment is not to be defended without the very defense challenged. On DU, especially, as long as I'm free to say something about it.

I used clear, unambiguous language to state my point. I detest beating around the bush in general. If that is to be classified as "rude", so be it.

Whether or not you fall on one side of the issue or the other is not for me to say.

I made it quite clear that men have to answer to the women in their lives for they way that they treat those women. What DU men feel about how poorly women are treated, as depicted by the cartoon in question, is just one way to establish their own positions. I've stated my own.

It's your right to object to that supposition, if you wish, however as I said before, such a position comes with obvious consequences.


And still. do you have an answer about the cartoon? How do you feel about it?

[Confusious]

673. It's everything a woman has happen to her in a week in one walk home.

and I was not talking about you being rude, I was talking about every panel of the cartoon, except for the last.

And I suppose i have to make this extra clear, or else you'll read something else into it. The men are being rude.

I made it quite clear that men have to answer to the women in their lives for they way that they treat those women. What DU men feel about how poorly women are treated, as depicted by the cartoon in question, is just one way to establish their own positions. I've stated my own.

Yes, and you're sitting on your moral high horse judging the rest of us, which is also equally infuriating, especially since you have a mote in your eye.
You paint every guy into a corner as harassers and sit back and judge, without even knowing the other men around here.

Mrscorpio talks to "guys'
everything written in a direct form, to address the men here, as if we're the ones doing the harassing.

I made it quite clear that men have to answer to the women in their lives for they way that they treat those women. What DU men feel about how poorly women are treated, as depicted by the cartoon in question, is just one way to establish their own positions. I've stated my own.

No, it's not how we feel about how women are treated. it's about how you're treating us, like we've been convicted without even a trial.

You couldn't find a better way to write this, in not such an accusatory form? No, I think not, because then you couldn't get on you horse.

[MrScorpio]

677. Edit: What was written in this space before was unfair

I'll state this however that, a good friend of mine has always said that "Silence equals Consent".

In this case, it's quite apropos.

[Confusious]

678. You used it, I'm not

I keep trying to get you to see the reasons some people are pissed, but you don't want to see.

You keep dancing around the points I brought up, you just don't want to accept any responsibility for writing a post is such a way that you were sure it would piss people off, then stand back and say "whoa", they painted themselves into a corner.

You admitted as much yourself.

It's not that I'm against this being brought up, that I don't think it happens. I just object to the way in which it was brought up. Using an accusatory tone is never good. It does not allow people an "out", not to say it doesn't happen, but to say:

"Can you please help fix this"

which is much better then:

"This is a problem, and you're a part of the problem."

People react much better to the first option. In the first, it take time to solve, which is better then the second, in which nothing gets solved.

[MrScorpio]

682. People will always have their own reasons for being pissed off for the things that I say

I understand that.

It's their right.

People want to attack the messenger, when it's been demonstrated that the message is quite valid.

It's their right as well.

But if you object to the message, the messenger or both, I suggest that you take it up with those in whose behalf that the message was given.

If they, in turn, reject the message or myself, I will concede that you've made a valid point.


But until then, I stand by my OP.

[Confusious]

685. The problem isn't the message

A little the messenger.

it's the way in which it was given. I keep saying that, and you don't seem to see it. How about this:

You delivered the message, bowed to the lady, and kicked the guy in the nuts.

Does that do it?

[MrScorpio]

686. Yeah, I did some kicking

I kicked the guy who was attacking the lady

But you don't seem to want to admit that point.

[Confusious]

687. No, there was no guy attacking any lady

At least not here. Maybe I am clueless, maybe DU is filled with men who push themselves on women, who don't have respect for women. That would make for a strange "progressive" who hangs out on this board.

Maybe you are the only one who does. Is that right?

If not, then we're back to two posts ago, and your post is moot, because most of us know not to push ourselves on women, and have respect for women.

[MrScorpio]

690. I don't know if you're aware of this but this was the thread that I was addressing

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9062677

It was a lot worse before some the posts were removed.

But there it is.

Looking at what went on in it gave me quite the expectation of what reaction that I was going to get in a thread with an OP about my own opinions.

I love doing OPs.

I'm not afraid of expressing my own opinions.

When others are being unfairly treated on DU, I feel that I have to speak out.

Which is why we're discussing all of this right now.

[Cherchez la Femme]

683. Of course he's 'entitled', even to his own brand of BS

but that doesn't mean he is immune from being called upon it! :D

[Cherchez la Femme]

680. So your defense is "HE did it first"!

HOW can I say that, after in one sentence you aver how you've defended him and even "been more then polite" but in the very next you call him

--wait for it--

"a hypocrite"!


Yup. Childish.


Noo, we women nor the men who hold us as respectful & as equals (we "hypocrites") should not "dictate" to the second coming of the venerable wise man who happens to, according to many (most of whom hold him as their religious figure) has his own religion
by the name of...


"Confusious"?! (spelling not mine!)


Er... if *you* say so, I guess

...not!

:rofl:

[Confusious]

684. I think I've had my fill of rude today

From someone who doesn't understand English. Or the difference between childish and a fact. I don't really think I ever heard a child use the word 'hypocrite'

My name is spelled the way it is, because I wanted it spelled that way.

as for the rest, really not worth my time.

[Cherchez la Femme]

818. Sux to be you

being harassed by a native New Yorker with an Ivy League education who, according to you, can't even understand English!
Said by one whom misspells -- but claims to misspell deliberately!

And with that argument, your communications are obviously to be taken as precious pearls of masculine, patriarchal wisdom,
falling clear as a silver bell to those with the proper lexicon

or at least the mental acuity to understand them!


Yeah. Right. :eyes:


And the nerve of me taking up your valuable time!
Awww, shame on me!


GFY(Arrogant)Self. Im doen wit u.

[Confusious]

904. From someone who calls me childish

And then pokes fun at my name.

Do you spend a lot of time making fun of people's names? That places you at what? 7 years old?

Yes, not worth my time talking to a hypocrite as rude and nasty as you.

[joshcryer]

373. I suspect most of the posters here have never exhibited the depravity that you have.

Me, I can't think of an instance, but it certainly isn't easy to find if I had. All 30+k posts of mine on 4 different forums are searchable by google. Have fun.

[Confusious]

375. depravity is a bit harsh. he was just rude. nt

[MrScorpio]

396. Yeah, I've have my rude days

Why is this such a surprise?

[MrScorpio]

389. And you're point is that I'm NOT capable of treating women with respect?

I really don't care what your history is, Torquemada

I'm not even going lower myself to that kind of BS

If you want to talk about the OP and why it's a bad idea or not, I'm quite happy to do that

[joshcryer]

408. I'm forming a reply to your most nonsensical parts, actually.

But I'm not Torquemada, and no, it is not implied that you cannot treat women with respect, merely that your intentions may not be in fact to give sound advice. Indeed, your reply is framed to counter another heated thread here, as actual discource is trumped by, uh, flamewars.

[MrScorpio]

421. Well, I know what bad behavior is

Because I've done some of it myself. I've found the reactions instructive. Such is the nature of experience.


However, I find it strange that you're completely ignoring several of the other posters who seemed to be taken in by my "intentions" and lack of "sound advice".


Would you care to tell all of the posters that agreed with my OP that they were wrong as well?


They're all there waiting for you to set them all straight.

[seabeyond]

449. i re read your post again. it is good stuff. still. things that are often overlooked

here on du, not to mention the real world

still valid.

[MrScorpio]

460. Thank you. nt

[Cherchez la Femme]

564. Perhaps

the silicone implants were being objectified.

I can't think of many human beings who dislike breasts, don't like to talk about them and especially don't want to see them (or indeed Closer Encounters) --it's a human condition, even gay men usually admire them-- and of course I love them while at the same time believe it or not I don't objectify them.
However I despise implants --women's bodies should be accepted and worshiped as they are naturally, not operated upon and stuffed with silicone or big bags of saline-- so this may just be coming from my POV

which still doesn't make it any less true -- my truth.

[KamaAina]

271. I love women at least as much as you do

:loveya:

and I have been alone for two solid decades now. :cry:

Apparently, what women say they want and what they actually go for are two entirely different things. :(

[seabeyond]

290. i am sorry.

i am sorry that you are alone, lonely.

if you are. if you dont want to be.

i said what i wanted in a man, and i got what i wanted in that man. i was consistent.

i dont know you or your situation. i do know women i hang with and what they wanted in a man. and they too found that man.

and here we are years later, appreciative of our man

best i can do for you

[Confusious]

299. Sorry man

But believe me, there are worse things then being alone. Like being with someone you don't want to be with.

I've done it, I have a friend who's there. He's got a with autism, and a crazy wife who has the same problem I do, but doesn't treat it.

5 years of friendship for him, to put it in a polite way.

[Confusious]

320. Just some advice

I'm pretty shy, but match.com is good for meeting people, as are some other sites out there.

Also check to see if there are singles groups in your area. Those really help also.

Get a new haircut, buy some new clothes, maybe get some cologne. All those things help.

You gotta be happy with yourself and where you are first. Examine your life and every time you do something, a job, a game, ask yourself, "does this make me happy?" if the answer is no, then do something else. Try new things. If you're miserable, then its time for a change.

[seabeyond]

359. lovely post... but not too much cologne. a little goes a long way. lol. but

excellent post. and... really, dont buy into the "nice guys finish last". especially older you get, really really, the good, nice, gonna treat you right women, really want a good man.

dont settle or think or believe otherwise

and this is not really to you confusious, but to the subop.

just liked your post to him

[KamaAina]

461. Haircut?

How about a rug? :P

[seabeyond]

469. ah ha ha. no,

not a rug. at all. or even. nope. you, perfectly imperfect you. no rug

[defendandprotect]

405. Many women are also alone . . . you can only form relationships with the

people you meet!!

Many females aren't meeting the right person --

and that's also true of males --

You're meeting the wrong females --

Women want human respect--not to be harassed and not to be raped or manhandled --

that is universal -- and don't doubt it!!

[KamaAina]

464. No, I'm meeting the right females

but they're already hooked up with the wrong men -- or, in the most important case, women. :cry:

[liquid diamond]

637. Sorry to hear about your pain man.

I really feel you when it comes to your last sentence. You sound like a good man.

[Name removed]

274. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demmiblue]

287. At least he didn't 'indulge'.

:puke:

[JVS]

294. And they say chivalry is dead

;-)

[JVS]

288. But he never indulged! How gallant!

[lumberjack_jeff]

291. LOL!

[sailor65]

292. My hat is off to you

you had this one lined up way better that I. Well done, I'd never seen those examples.

[SeattleGirl]

296. Having fun in your sandbox, boys?

:eyes:

[Nye Bevan]

301. Well, if George W Bush signed up as a DUer

and started a thread on the importance of avoiding unnecessary wars, we would be having some fun with him, too.

[sailor65]

312. Great, now I have to give you my hat outright!

The WIN is strong in you, grasshopper!

[SeattleGirl]

337. Oh brother.

:eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

319. Oh, absolutely!

It was so nice of someone to leave it here!

[potassiumnitrate]

329. Hell, we're not the ones who fell for his shit

This is the funniest thread EVAR.

[seabeyond]

377. are you just fuckin stupid. fell for what shit. you suggesting us women cant figure out words

in an op on whether they make sense or not. wtf are you talking about. there is a post. agree or dont. but fuckin stupid to suggest that it has anything to do with the op, or the ideas of the op put on page.

jeezus grow fuckin up

[seabeyond]

381. sometimes sexist pigs stern and maher say something smart. that i agree with.

if i agree with them, am i falling for their shit? even though i am aware of what sexist shits they are. so because i know they are bottom of the barrel scum, well not so much maher, but stern, i cant agree with ANYTHING they say?

really?

[potassiumnitrate]

385. Your anger is showing

I know it's humiliating to be had like that, but you're directing your ire at the wrong guy. He played you like a fiddle with his OP.

The point is he DID NOT MEAN what he wrote, at all.

[seabeyond]

391. anger? humiliate? being had? i know this poster and have been on here for 7 yrs

you dont know wtf you are talking about

i made a point. a logical, reasonable point. you on the other hand prefer to ignore the point and and throw a bunch of crap at me.

[FedUpWithIt All]

428. Do you think women should be treated with respect?

Do you think women should have the right to determine for themselves what is comfortable sexually? Do you see how women might feel uncomfortable or even threatened by sexually tinged rhetoric by strangers?

I really would like an answer to these questions because i cannot see how these ideas being shared, by anyone, can be seen as a negative thing.

[seabeyond]

463. this is how the thread ended up, that started this very thread. me so busy defending

men, that they could not address those simple questions. as if they did, then they lose something, or simply lose. it surprised a lot of men too.

[provis99]

516. you defending men? are you being sarcastic?

I don't think you've met a man in your life that you didn't hate.

[MrScorpio]

520. The winners just keep coming

Feel free to tell us all how you feel about some of our fellow female DUers...

By all means!

[seabeyond]

528. actually, the "n" didnt quite make it on that me. but, i am a man hater. i hate men.

that is what you accuse me of? i hate men.

you are always wrong. you are always clueless. you dont know what the fuck you are talking about.

now.... prove it. you mouth, but you never have substance. prove, .... where i hate men. big words, from a little dude. show me where i hate men. and if you cant with my posts, show me in my personal life how much i hate men. i take care of a hubby, two sons, two brothers, father, and two nephews. all dont have women in life but me. i am there for all of them. i love them. they love me.

so

show me

personal life
on the board
where i hate men

[provis99]

551. you wrote this in this thread, earlier.

" are you fuckin serious. every single post is an insult to women one way or another."

Yep. Every single post by a man is an insult to women one way or another. Nice sentiments, there.

[seabeyond]

554. by a particular man. i was talking to a partiular poster. are you not being honest

or did you not really understand. every one of his posts insults women, one way or another. not going back to do research where the pot is, off to bed.

and no... that does not mean... every single post BY A MAN is an intult to women. you got that one totally wrong

so keep digging. tell me where i hate men.

hate men

you say i hate men

prove it.

[defendandprotect]

410. Think they're really aggravated because a male posted this ....

had it been a female it would probably be locked by now!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

452. If it was written by a woman, it might arguably be genuine. n/t

[MrScorpio]

475. ...And a male perspective is somehow invalid?

How does that line of reasoning account for your own?

[lumberjack_jeff]

614. YMMV

My reaction to being called a latent rapist is to object and disagree.

Some men, on the other hand, will post an op calling other men rapists, thus insulating themselves with a fan club.

Not invalid, just of debatable authenticity.

[FedUpWithIt All]

496. It looks to me like women are confirming what the OP said.

Women, who confirmed this were being mocked, as if they were foolish for agreeing with the sentiments expressed in the OP. This treatment does not honor the genuine concerns and feelings of the women here. It belittles women further and that hurts.

Well I am a woman and i can tell you that the ideas suggested in the OP are accurate and genuine for me. I appreciate respect and feel threatened in some ways when men speak outwardly sexual to me before i have had an opportunity to feel safe. I also have three teen daughters and i can tell you, as their mother, it is also accurate and genuine.

[SeattleGirl]

506. Same here.

The OP resonated a lot with me.

I have had more unwanted advances and outright ugly things said and done to me, when I didn't deserve it, all because some man thought that I was, well, property or just an object or something. Like having a little simple respect for me was just, oh I don't know, weak or something on the man's part.

I also have a daughter, and I taught her early on what to look out for. She, too, has had more than her fair share of unwanted advances, but she's gotten really good at turning that shit right around.

[MrScorpio]

307. You want a mea culpa about a six year year old post?

You've got it

Hey, if I said it once, I've same it many times. I'm not perfect.

But I did mean everything that I posted in the OP today.

There are some experiences that come from having bad habits in my past, and changing one's opinion because I know that I was wrong at that time.

I've never said that I was always a saint and I'm still not one today.


So enjoy digging up all my past transgressions.


It's not like I have something to hide.

[provis99]

333. dude...turns out I'm the nice guy, and you're the sexist!

But I still won't treat women like they're my mommy or sister.

To the women of DU: beware of the male seducer posing as a respectful dude; he's a liar at heart. You're better off dealing with us clods: at least we're honest.

[MrScorpio]

339. That's your choice

It's has always been your choice

[SeattleGirl]

342. You really don't know what you're talking about.

I've been friends with MrS for several years, online and in person. You are just playing school-yard bully here, and thinking you are just so fine and all.

Well, bully away.

One thing I absolutely know about MrS is that he can handle folks like you.

[provis99]

365. I'm not bullying; I'm just playing. Mr.Scorpio is alright.

as for "...you are just so fine and all..."

well, thank you, it's nice to be appreciated:blush: :rofl:

[SeattleGirl]

372. Going after someone is not "playing".

You are trying to put what you are doing into something like it's just a little joke between friends.

Sorry, not buying it.

[Cherchez la Femme]

567. Definitely bullying

and with a gang.

Nice.

[seabeyond]

387. well, thanks for treating us like a bunch of dummies, and condescending at that.

and letting us know what a guy you are in the process, as you state being respectful and treating them like a person, is like treating them as a mom or sister.

aren't you the oh so clever dude, showing us just how fuckin smoooth you are, while you insult our intelligence.

you really need to go back to that ole drawing board. talk slowly thru the process so you understand.

[provis99]

392. no, it was the OP who said to treat women like their mother or sister.

And what is the insult to your intelligence? that I advocate being honest with women rather than being slyly seductive? It seems like the latter is condescending, rather than the former.

[MrScorpio]

406. You would treat your own family with respect, right?

Would not women that you don't know also deserve the same respect?

[seabeyond]

415. where did he say treat them like your mother and sister. couldnt find it

and if he did, he is talking about treat them like people. you ownt whorify you mom and sister, surely, hopefully, but treat them like people. but... i dont see anywhere in op, treat women like mom and sister. point it out.

secondly, by telling us we dont know about this poster, we dont know the difference between lounge and gd, we dont know how to coherently read a post and decide if it has merit. we can figure it out, all by our little ole selfs and still, agree with an op.

stern and maher are creeps. there are things they say i agree with. i am well aware they are creeps. am i not allowed to agree with them on certain things, because i knwo they are creeps.

are you really telling me, i have to discard all they say, because they are creeps.

[SeattleGirl]

422. So, you think women other than a mother or a sister should be

treated with something other than respect?

Pray tell, how would you treat them?

I am a mother, a sister, a daughter, a lover, a wife.

In none of those roles is respect not appropriate.

[Cherchez la Femme]

568. I know, respect isn't for girlfriends!

:eyes:

[SeattleGirl]

570. Of course not!

Girlfriends (and wives) are property, and they should be treated accordingly!

Right?

Oy, the level of stupidity by some on this thread is just astounding to me (and to many other women posting here, including you. :hug: )

[joshcryer]

574. How did you infer that from what was said?

Seriously I'm beginning to think I'm surrounded by highly unintelligent people here.

[defendandprotect]

413. No -- what they want is to attack the messenger -- rather than to admit what you're saying

is correct -- no disrespect -- no harassment -- no rape -- !!

And a male posted that -- that's what's really pi--ing them off!!

[MrScorpio]

433. Exactly.

I have no qualms in dealing with Attack-The-Messenger tactics.


I pretty much EXPECT it whenever I post something in GD.

[joshcryer]

308. Wow, haha, nice. That is so much win it is absurd.

I might not have conventional viewpoints but I've never shown such inconsistency.

[Fuzz]

719. Hilarious actually. Thread started by a guy who fucked his way through Asia.

Nice.

[potassiumnitrate]

314. This is officially EPIC. I might even rec this thread.

[Dystopian]

398. "Show us your tits!"

A guy I know took his adult son(s) on a trip/excursion ....can't recall who else was there, but he thought it would be fun and memorable to take a camera and yell this to 'girls'...."Show us your tits!" I guess they had some wonderful responses and fun!!!11!
This is the type of parenting that leads to these behaviors.

Like father, like son?
Color me repulsed.

I'm very proud of my two sons...would never engage in such behavior, and neither had a 'father' figure.

peace~

[MrScorpio]

401. Yep, bad parenting sucks. nt

[Dystopian]

412. Yes...

You obviously either had good role models, or have high ethics/principles .... innate.
Thank you for this thread....

peace~

[joshcryer]

411. Your two sons have likely posted on 4chan and engaged in things you would be sick..

...to know about.

[potassiumnitrate]

419. I bet they even masturbate to pornography

The horror!

[Dystopian]

448. Hey!

You sound like one of the 'show us your tits!' crowd!



peace~

[demmiblue]

453. He sure does.

Don't let it bother you, though. I have a feeling he won't be around long.

:hi:

[Dystopian]

504. demmiblue...

:hi:
Thank you...I won't.:hug:

peace & joy to you~

[Dystopian]

435. You don't know my sons.

They hardly ever use computers. Too involved in real life.

peace~

[joshcryer]

442. How old are they?

[seabeyond]

476. well, gosh, not liek you are painting ALL males in one manner, and if a woman said this

you would be up in arms.

no, not ALL males yell out "show me your tits" which is the issue.

[provis99]

484. You have no goddamn business saying what "all males" do or don't do.

We men can say what men do or do not do, not you.

oh edit: I was responding to the person you responded to, not you. Sorry for the mixup.

[seabeyond]

493. i dont say what all men do. i wouldnt dare say what all women do. poster said what ALL men do

and SOME men are going to have issue with it. it is arrogant and egotistical, validating behavior, using the ALL men do it, so see, it is cool.

[joshcryer]

522. Utterly dishonest mischaracterization.

[seabeyond]

537. i dont think so. nt

[MrScorpio]

494. Even what men say and do to the women that they meet?

So, men hold ALL the cards with that regard?

Is that what you're implying?

[seabeyond]

498. not only what is implied. we are told, no holds bar, often. nt

[MrScorpio]

500. Well, I guess that that singular post validates the very need for the OP...

Does it not?

[seabeyond]

505. ya know. nt

[joshcryer]

525. If you are responding to me, then I think you need to reread what I wrote.

[provis99]

540. I got it wrong again. It's late and I'm confused.

I take back the retraction I made in my earlier post.

[Dystopian]

488. True. Thank you.

Never would I say that all males do this...
The thread reminded me of a story that one male related to me.

And at my age...I was taken aback by this recent tale....
Parents need to think...at any age. They are our children forever.


peace~

[provis99]

524. but the point of this thread is that men are generally like this.

The women on the thread have been pointing out that with the exception possibly of "their man", that men are rapists and harassers who need to be lectured not to do that stuff. If they believe in fact that any men are the exception.

[SeattleGirl]

550. Jeebus please us! Some men ARE rapists!

That is not the same thing as saying ALL men are rapists, and I don't know of any woman on this thread who has said that. That is your own take on it, which tells me that you are the guilty one in terms of stereotyping people.

[provis99]

553. on the contrary, I do not believe that all men are rapists.

But think that way if it makes you feel better.

[seabeyond]

557. so you fuckin play games too. you twist a person words that are right in front of you.

that is so childish. you changed my words above accusing me of hating men
you change her words, she saying some men rape, you say.... believe all men rape

beyond childish.

how old are you, really, 13.

[SeattleGirl]

572. Oh, I think 13 is ascribing too much maturity to him.

I'd say more like a 1 year old.

[joshcryer]

580. I'd like to meet a 1 year old that can type nearly as coherently.

But was this just your way of saying he has a small penis? :rofl:

[joshcryer]

579. Why do you degenerate to calling someone a child when they use your exact tactic?

I think it's amusing at least.

[SeattleGirl]

571. Did I say ALL? No, I did not.

You are assigning something to me that I do not think.

Project much?

[joshcryer]

576. Eh, you dish it just as well. I wish we could all be honest and not put text in others' posts.

(Words in others' mouths.)

[joshcryer]

518. Reading comprehension fail, again. I did not say all males did anything.

[Cherchez la Femme]

569. Just shows the general opinion you have of all/most young men

and where your mindset is.

Believe it or not, there are decent men of all ages out there. It's the perv's that get all the press
...as shown on Fox. You watch it? You obviously believe it.

But not about what Fox says about Democrats I bet, or you wouldn't be here! :eyes:

[joshcryer]

573. I speak from experience by going to gaming sites, and space related sites.

These sites tend to reflect the general young male population fairly well.

I did not rule out that the two sons in question were perfect. Just unlikely.

[jmm]

441. Another bad parenting story...

Once while at a mall I heard somebody say, "See son, now that's an ass." I turn around and see a grown man with a boy who couldn't have been older than three. He was leaning in front of his son and pointing to me.

He tried to talk to me but I told him I felt sorry for his son and walked away.

[Dystopian]

501. How sad.

As a preschool teacher...I've seen enough to know that I've seen too much...
As a parent and grandmother...my heart goes out to this child.
I'm sorry that you had to be witness, and the object of this 'father's' teachings...


peace~

[SeattleGirl]

511. I couldn't even imagine saying that to a child.

Or demonstrating that kind of behavior in front of him (or her).

[TK421]

889. I would like to see morons like that castrated...the kid will grow up thinking

now it's just peachy to objectify women.

What a colossal dick

[Odin2005]

565. Wow, sad, but not suprising.

Unchivalrous crudity is the norm, noways, and now dads are passing it on.

[roguevalley]

479. MrScorpio, you were raised right. I hug you.

[MrScorpio]

489. Thank you very much nt

[Skittles]

527. I'VE HAD IT WITH MEN

LIKED IT TOO :D

[FrenchieCat]

533. K&R!

[Catherine Vincent]

539. That's beautifully written, brother. :)

[Odin2005]

541. *APPLAUSE*

:applause:

[BlancheSplanchnik]

543. It's CRUELTY for SPORT.

The epidemic of sexualized harassment of women isn't about wanting but not knowing how to talk to women.

Men who do this know EXACTLY what they're doing.

It's about acting out anger, rage, hatred, and taking pleasure in making an easy target (women and girls) suffer.

[Initech]

562. I'm a guy and this thread freaked me the fuck out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9075495&mesg_id=9075495

:wow: :yoiks:

[SeattleGirl]

575. That kind of behavior is extremely common.

I am sorry to say that, but it's true.

Not every man, of course, not at all.

But there are plenty of men out there who just do not understand that some of the things they do are offensive to women they don't know; sometimes even to women they do know.

[joshcryer]

583. What behavior?

[provis99]

587. rape and harassment by DU men, apparently.

[SeattleGirl]

589. Good grief, you honestly think that men who might identify

themselves as left-leaning wouldn't also be guilty of misogyinistic thinking?

If you, you have a thing or two to learn.

[joshcryer]

594. You're making an allegation about posters in this thread, I have been following it all day...

...and I saw NOTHING of that sort. Just people who disagreed with the OP on personal grounds and then appalled repetition that anyone would dare disagree. I MYSELF was called out for "supporting rapist" for instance. It's a joke really.

What's really really hilarious is that the OPs underlying objectifying biases really comes through in the OP, but so many people here ignore it because he's been around so long and it invoked keywords to juice everyone up.

It's amazing. The spectacle at full pace.

[provis99]

598. well, lets see your score card so far: in this thread:

-you suspect (without proof) that some of the male posters in this thread are rapists or harassers, and have a lack of respect for women.
-you claim They (meaning men i suppose) create us (women) as whores, but "the "virgin" part comes in in how we are supposed to act"
-you've implied that men who don't like the OP's post are opposed because they are unattractive to women
-you've claimed that every day you deal with subtle ways men disrespect women (subtle as in you're the only one who thought they were disrespectful?)
-you've insulted men as being insecure about their penis if they disagree with the OP's premise
-men who disagree with the OP are "bullies"
-insulted male posters by implying they are just little boys having fun in their "sandbox"
-you condescendingly referred to a harasser as just "some man"; anyone else you want to put down as "some man"?
-tell me I'm playing games when you deliberately twist and misunderstand my own posts.
-claim some (apparently male) DU posters do not get that rape is bad
-implied that men who confronted the OP's premise are also misogynistic

any other slurs, put-downs, or insults about men you would like to make clear before you continue?

[SeattleGirl]

588. Men denying that women are harassed, cat-called, raped, etc.

There is plenty of that shit going on, and also plenty of men who would deny it.

That kind of behavior.

[joshcryer]

592. Which post #? I didn't see it, I'd call it out.

[Odin2005]

624. I was completely ignorant of the problem until a friend of mine was raped last year.

Asshole thought her physical disability (cerebral palsy) was an invitation to rape her! :grr:

[Skittles]

681. not at all surprising to women

[snot]

577. I find it pretty terrifying that any of this needed to be said.

[joshcryer]

582. It's a continuation of the cartoon thread.

None of this "needs" to be said, and it is actually an extremely insulting OP, that many many people here fell for without appreciating the underlying biases in it.

Basically they read the fluff but ignored the meat.

[SeattleGirl]

590. Yes, it DOES need to be said, because as evidenced by

some posters on this thread, they just do not fucking get it!

[joshcryer]

591. Got an example?

[seabeyond]

604. nt

[seabeyond]

603. much of it needs to be said. bu there are men that refuse to listen, hence, why the post was made.

i am hearing a couple of you insist there is no reason for du men to read this. this is the very reason du men need to read this. they say... none of this needs to be said.

not only does it need to be said, it needs to be discussed. and obvious the actual post wont, once again, be discussed. it is alwyas the battle to hold on to dominance thru different means.

[MrScorpio]

639. Can you imagine what the response would have been had a woman wrote it?

These guys won't even listen to ANOTHER GUY.

The fight goes on!

[joshcryer]

701. But, by the same token, people in this thread are ignoring the men who are offended.

...that they need to be told not to rape people. Seriously. It's ridiculous. And it still amazes me how many feminists here overlook that the OP focuses on treating women as sex objects.

[seabeyond]

707. firstly, i have not ignored the men.... i have listened, and i have responded

i talked to them.

my posts are there.

secondly, there is so much in the op. stuff that people, ok men, right here on du do. one of the things i loved in the post is women like sex, too. i really feel we are living in the world where we are pumping the mens sexuality to such an extent of be all, end all and beyond of prowess, and women are being reduced to total asexual beings to service and entertain men. how many men asked me about my feelings. concerned i would think something like that. why i would think something like that. explain why i am wrong? how many men listened?

that is just one of the many gems in his op.

how much have you listened to the op or to the women.

and remember, not only have i listened, but i acknowledge verbally some of the mens concerns.

i will tell you how much you have not listened. i have posted a number of times my opinion on those threads people went back to, putting on this thread. a "gotcha" moment. and i watched men doing the happy dance, men that were dismissing my and womens concerns. men that while they dismissed, doing the happy dance were literally calling us women suckers, and fools and stupid.... very conscending.

again, another moment for the men that dont get it, how revoltingly sexist those posts were, right here on the thread. and the men telling us they dont need to hear the op. they dont do what the op says. as they did exactly that. my explanation and opinion was made in a number of posts about ops previous posts. how well did you listen?

are you listening yet?

[joshcryer]

748. See, that's absolutely not what I get from the OP.

From my point of view women are in fact not being turned into "asexual creatures." Every night you'll have commercials for that "for women only" "enhancement lubrication." Modern men in fact have to deal with insecurities with regards to their ability to actually provide women pleasure. But that's good, if you ask me, because men have been dominate for so long that they didn't have to care about women and how they felt about sex.

The focus on sex in the OP was the most appalling part of the whole thing, for me. He talks about how if you do things just as he says "women will want to have sex with you." As if meeting women is to have sex with them. That's the only reasonable conclusion you can have if you actually read what he wrote.

I read the OP a half dozen times. I find it disgusting, revolting advice, which will not actually help anyone find a partner in life.

how revoltingly sexist those posts were, right here on the thread.

YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR DISHONESTY.

The only revoltingly sexist posts that I've seen are by the OP himself, not only in this thread but in his past behavior. The OP is littered with disgusting implications about "getting sex."

[joshcryer]

584. Real advice from an effectively celibate guy:

To start, it's clear that the OP was a continuation of the "Cartoon Thread" and most of the points were defined to basically feed off of it using caricatures to make things even more spicy. But it does have a lot of good points, some which many guys (particularly the poster of the nerdy thread) overlook when it comes to the art of attraction and finding a partner in life.

Don't let the "effectively celibate" thing scare you as I am probably the only person in my family who hasn't had serious relationship issues, I just don't want one at this point in my life. I'm not mature enough (saying this at 34) and I want to get my own life settled before embarking on that adventure again. Frankly, I couldn't put any female through my whole dexters lab phase I'm going through, being an inattentive bastard is never a good idea, but I'll get to that.

The first point that the OP makes is that women are "human beings." Of course, that goes without saying. But what's important is that they're equal human beings, they are not to be treated very much differently than you would any other person. Doing so sends off a false persona, and women are extremely adept at picking up on false personas. So if you treat a woman like you might treat a saintly nun, they will almost certainly pick up on it, be turned off immediately, and not want you to talk to you ever again (this is an issue the "nerdy thread" seemed have a problem with).

The second point is the OP merely placating the most likely viewers of his post (it worked well to his favor), but there's probably some truth to it. Women are better at discerning social behaviors, telling if you're lying or not, or overall picking at various behavioral ticks, which is why it's important to be yourself.

The third point the OP makes is a minor reiteration of the first point, however, it horrifically presupposes that "being slept with" is an initial goal for any encounter with a potential mate. While it is usually a goal, eventually, it is absolutely by no means an initial goal in the vast majority of situations where you meet a female. Indeed, for long term pairing, not being slept with initially is likely a very good thing (indicating that you are doing all the right things for a genuine pairing opportunity).

(...) doesn't want to sleep with you, (because I guess that you're not treating her like a human being), it doesn't make her a bad person... (...)

Translation: if you are a good person you females will want to sleep with you.

(...) chances are that she won't sleep in because you're acting like an ass probably (...)

Translation: if you aren't a bad person females will want to sleep with you.

This directly contradicts the statements in "Fifth," where the OP writes "Sex may or may not be in the outing... But, it's best not to expect it to be." Except, if you're a good person it might be! This is the most disgusting thing I've read on these forums that has had so much overwhelming support, by people who I know and respect as ardent feminists. But I'll get to that later.

The fourth point the OP makes is that women enjoy sex. While true for the most part, it's difficult for me to see the relevance toward "meeting women." It is yet again a continuation of the "meeting women for sex meme" that the OP has started. Of course, the most hilarious part is that the OP then makes subpoints to illustrate that "women chose who they have sex with" (so do men, unless you're buying the meme that the OP is trying to create; which is, implicitly, that men fuck anything that moves), that you should not have any doubts before initiating sex, and that harassing women doesn't lead to sex. And finally, the bit about rape, which tops off the "let's restart the Cartoon Thread" meme. All the while giving the absolute worst advice you can give to any man about meeting women. Again, I reiterate, sex is by no means an initial goal for meeting women.

The fifth point is really what gets me, the OP spends the vast majority of his time talking about sex, which is ridiculous. And then, in the fifth "thing that you should consider when you're meeting women" he footnotes that "one shouldn't expect sex." This is the most appalling advice I've ever read, to be honest (wait, it's the second most appalling advice I've ever read, the first is some idiots telling a guy whose girlfriend had an abortion without telling him about it, that he should dump her, but that's another discussion entirely). The OP says that sex, when meeting women, is "on the outing" but you shouldn't expect it? Fuck that, sex should not be on the table at all for "meeting women." Now the OP will come and say "that's exactly what I mean" but it most certainly is not what was said in the first five things of advice! The OP spends half of his time discussing sex and how to "get it" and has the audacity to tone it back and tell me that "respect" leads to "friendship." This is all well and good, but I'd say that mutual, reciprocated respect leads to friendship, and if I am lying to myself and spending all that time trying to be "good to get sex," I damn sure have no self-respect.

The sixth point really underlines what the OP is trying to say, and where most of the ardent feminists here miss the point of the OP. Implicitly it is "to fuck a chick simply placate her and be cunning." Why? Because the sixth point effectively says to have no standards. Never mind the narrative already being made about men "fucking anything."

You're in no right position to judge any woman that you meet on her looks, her weight, her choice of attire, her drink of choice, her career, her choice of sex partners, her intelligence, or anything else about her... Unless she trusts you enough to ask you for your opinion.

And yet, I am the sole arbitrator of what I find attractive, from weight (a potential indicator of health), to choice of attire (since it can give me clues about her underlying taste), and career, etc. Remember, we're talking about meeting women, and in the context of this statement the woman could well be approaching me. If I am not attracted to someone or if I find that I cannot see myself with them for whatever reason, then it is my duty to politely tell them that I am not interested. Therefore I am fully in the position to judge any woman that I meet for any reason. I do agree with the OP that I should not express my opinion about why I do not like certain things about a female, however, if there are things I do like about them, I've found that compliments lead to a favorable view in their eyes (judgment can be both positive and negative, but I'm being pedantic here). It is very hard to overlook this sixth thing, though, because the OP has preceded this thing with five other points that build up to sex, underlying that if you "aren't an ass" females will "want to sleep with you."

Seventh is an interesting point, but it largely ignores the place of innuendo in the flirtation process, and makes things so much more sterile and cold.

The eighth point is probably the only one I agree with fully.

The ninth point makes no sense, because you wouldn't use innuendo with your mother or sister, you wouldn't compliment your mother and sister on very many things, you wouldn't be sending any flirtatious signals at all with your mother and sister (such as blushing, finger touching, hair twirling, things of that nature). Or at least I hope not.

Finally, ten is really egotistical. The advice overall is quite horrible, and I'd expect most women to see through any sort of "nice guy" facade quite readily, and indeed, the "nerdy thread" illustrates it well enough. Many guys on the internet are on many forums complaining about how they're "nice guys" but that they aren't "getting anywhere." The reason is simple. Most women can see through "nice guys." But I'm being redundant.


So I'll simply explain my 10 rules of attraction, and I can guarantee that women who want to be respected will be.

1) Women are your equals, there is nothing about them that is so different as to require you to behave drastically differently. But when it comes to relationships, partners or lovers do require a somewhat different approach. It is unhealthy to have sexual feelings for a friend, likewise it is unhealthy to be friends with someone who has sexual feelings for you. This is only a case for heartache and drama, and ultimately a loss of friendship.

2) Be yourself. If you are not respectful, then you are not going to find a respectful mate. Likely, you want to be respectful because disrespect in a relationship can lead to hardship later on, especially if kids become involved. Expanded: stay true to yourself except learned behavior that may cause conflict, ie, learn to be respectful the best you can. It appears that the OP has at least accomplished that to an extent, though he seems to insist that his current objectification to "paid models" is no big deal.

3) Be confident. Everyone has some bit of confidence. Everyone has it no matter what they say, and it ultimately surfaces when you are around like minded individuals, which leads us to...

4) Seek like minded individuals, not necessarily with identical views to your own, but with at least some similarities. If you don't do this you will just set yourself up to fail, and that ultimately leads to a continued lack of confidence.

5) Seek "more than friendship." Not stating your intentions early on will only lead to heartbreak. I've seen it hundreds of times on forums I go to. The "friend zone" is a real modern day dilemma, with so many indirect methods of communication, your relationship could become "phone only" or "text only." Then you might fall in love with a voice or a photo, and it will be difficult to let go. If you are rejected early on you can move on to other interests (while of course maintaining your friendship if you wish; though when you do finally find a partner they will likely not appreciate a very strong friendship with the earlier female friend).

6) Learn the ropes of social clues. If you're socially awkward, this can be difficult. Find like minded individuals, if only for the social experience, and use them for practice. Social clues are things like blushing, eyelashes flicking, hair twirling, nose crunching, eyebrows raising, eyes glowing, etc. The clues are different for both genders. On top of that, they're arguably the most important skill to know, as they'll tell you if a female wants to talk to you without you having to utter a single word. Learn to exude confidence, and walk with your head held high.

7) Compliments are endearing and show that you care more than a mere friend does, they also provide opportunities to learn more about someone because they allow you to focus and have a bit of fun. But be inventive, shallow compliments and flattery will do nothing, and you will fall into the "nice guy" trap where you are uninteresting. If you think her hair is nice, it is not nice again until it changes. Really. Females remember that shit. "You told me it was nice yesterday, it's the same hair." If you like the same music, likewise, it's a one off. "We like that same band," can only be expressed once. Be observant, if you truly want to have a relationship with this person, you should actually remember things about them that they find interesting. "Friends only" don't do this. If someone changes their hair, it may even go unnoticed. I know for damn sure I don't remember when my friends get new outfits or shit. But a girlfriend, I notice, because I care just a wee bit more.

8) Innuendo is a good way to differentiate between friends and sexual partners. It comes about through some period of time whereby the partners become more and more comfortable with one another that it is acceptable. Some mild innuendo can even be used on the first meeting if things are going well, and can help keep your intentions clear. The more clever it is, the better. There's a lot of fun to be had if you don't meet someone who you might offend (but if you followed the "like minded" advice you may use it or not depending on your own preference).

9) Sex is not initiated by either party, it happens mutually. This is important, and would be higher up on the list, but because it happens mutually, naturally, through some period of relationship, it actually isn't that big of a deal at all. Sex is the least complicated part of relationships, by far.

10) Don't leer at, sexually assault, harass, stalk, or rape prospective females. ;)

[provis99]

593. I like your rules a hell of a lot better.

[joshcryer]

596. I bet no one notices that they're not *actually* rules (prolly shouldn't have called it that).

I bet people start responding how "oh he's telling us how to behave" and shit like that. But I spent an hour wording everything the best I could so no "gotchas" could come around (because it will be picked apart by the people in this thread who are obsessed with being right more than having a discussion).

[MrScorpio]

638. So friends can't be lovers and vice versa, is this what you're saying?

Have you ever seen WHEN HARRY MET SALLY?

Yeah, I know that it's just a movie, but it flies in the face of your immature argument.

[joshcryer]

692. I'm saying that lovers are typically more than just friends.

I make no illusions toward knowing shit about one night stands and how they work or open relationships with lots of sex.

[Supply Side Jesus]

675. better...

Well articulated response. this should have been the OP.

[joshcryer]

699. If it was the OP it would've got maybe 10 responses and no drama.

The whole point of the post is drama.

[RandomThoughts]

585. The concept of having a GF is irrelevant until things are corrected.

It would not be fair to date a lady without financial security, or while working on other projects.

although your comments are interesting, not something I worry about, other things to correct first.


However I thought it important to post because I do talk about soldier/servant metaphor with gender reference, but that has very little to do with people, and nothing to do with gender.

[smalll]

595. Be careful, you tempt me to write my own OP on all this stuff myself --

and although you make a good amount of sense in what you say, at the same time, you're not really speaking to guys here -- you're speaking to the girls.

Because you're telling guys that there's really nothing at all fucked-up with the way things are these days, there's nothing to complain about, chill. Which girls like to hear said, from one dude to another.

Now, telling people to chill, in general, is a good thing. And it's not good to complain about the opposite sex, not only does it not help, but fundamentally, it's misguided. But I do complain, I do contend things are fucked up, I do maintain that, increasingly, there are very good reasons why so many of us are not so chill anymore.

I see in the thread you last got out of the market around 1990. Good for you, in all seriousness. Getting out of the market is the goal. But let me tell you, the market is more fucked up in 2010 than it was in 1990.

Sayin'! :shrug:

[seabeyond]

605. i would love for you to be tempted and hear what you have to say. from your perspective

i think it would be important for us to hear, and discuss

do write a thread

[CBR]

599. This thread has taught me that there are alot of men

who have very low self-esteem and love to play victim. They mix that up with anger and snark.

[varelse]

609. Too late to recommend

But at least I can give it a :thumbsup: - and give the author my deepest gratitude and admiration :loveya:

[Codeine]

618. Sometimes things get odd, however.

I met my current girlfriend when she caught me looking at her cleavage and laughingly called me out on it. Then she got my number from a coworker and started dirty texting me. :D Two years in October!

[MrScorpio]

628. Only Nixon Can Go To China

I pretty much expected the reaction given in this thread by several male posters when another poster made a point of addressing the woeful lack of cluefullness about the subject matter, by way of the cartoon in question.

First I'd like to point out, that anyone who jumped into this thread to make excuses of why women should be continued to be harassed when they've committed the heinous sin of being out in public around male assholes, has just OUTED THEMSELVES. The female DUer posters now know WHO YOU ALL ARE and what YOUR EXCUSES are. Not to say that you have any excuses for yourselves but, be that as it may, you've pretty given up the ghost.

Second, yep "Only Nixon can go to China". The reason that I said that is because it was made very plain to me that it was best for males of a certain point of view to HEAR ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF MALE HARASSMENT OF FEMALES FROM ANOTHER MALE. So, I said, why not me?

Had a WOMAN DUer posted the EXACT SAME OP, the attacks on her would have been much more worse and much more vile and demeaning to women than the attacks posted against me.

I have ABSOLUTELY no qualms about facing down attacks posted against me for my own points of view posted on DU, as I know that I can defend myself. And frankly, I kind of enjoy going up against people from time to time. So sue me.

Third, IF you've objected to the message, then obviously, you're the person who is in MOST IN NEED of paying attention to it.

Fourth, IF you've objected to the message, then obviously, you've just told every woman who has agreed with it to go FUCK THEMSELVES.

Fifth, ATTACKING THE MESSENGER: How silly... Reposting my old LOUNGE THREADS to prove YOUR POINT? Are you serious? DO you even have a clue as to what the LOUNGE is all about? Are you even AWARE of LOUNGE culture or its history? Have you spent any time there and bantered with the other LOUNGE regulars, like myself? Do you know how utterly clueless it makes you look to compare the LOUNGE to GD?

Anyone who thinks that old LOUNGE posts by myself or anyone else, ESPECIALLY before the crackdown on SEX THREADS, is proof of hypocrisy on my part has absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

Just so you get this straight, things that are posted IN THE LOUNGE are only appropriate FOR THE LOUNGE. They do not reflect the attitude or appropriateness of posts that are MADE IN GD.

You ought to understand the different cultures of the different DU forums before you make such a ridiculous assertion.

MOST OF ALL, and get this: If you play this ATTACK THE MESSENGER game, then you have plainly demonstrated that you HAVE NO DEFENSE AGAINST THE MESSAGE. The message stands extant, even some of the attackers admit to that fact.

Sixth, The OP was NOT about how guys can get dates with girls... It's about the INAPPROPRIATE HARASSMENT OF WOMEN BY MALE ASSHOLES. It's about the IMPLIED THREAT OF RAPE. And ultimately about CERTAIN MALE CLUELESSNESS on the matter.

Look, can you even tell the difference between these two distinct and utterly separate subjects of matter? Well, obviously you can't, IF you try to merge the two.

LOOK at the cartoon again. Open your mind. Try to absorb its vital message. Distinguish bad behavior from good behavior. In spite of it all, I still would like to help you.

NOW, if you will, allow me to elaborate on the difference with some examples:

Alright, just suppose for the sake of argument, that we're witnessing a single, solitary woman, who is minding her own business while sitting at a table at an outdoor bistro. She's reading a book and enjoying her latte during a very pleasant afternoon. Allow me, if you will, to demonstrate the difference between chatting up a potential girlfriend and harassment by an asshole.

Chatting up a potential Girlfriend:

Guy: Oh, excuse me. But, is this seat taken? It seems that there's no more room left.

Gal: {Giving the guy the once over} Not at all, have a seat.

Guy: Thank you.

The guy takes the seat across from her. The waiter stops by and takes his order. He's very pleasant to the waiter while going over the menu, once his order is taken the waiter walks away. Gal takes note of Guy's pleasant exchange while she continues to read her book. Guy speaks first:

Guy: Excuse me, but isn't that the latest Sookie Stackhouse novel?

Gal: Yeah, it is.

Guy: Is it good? You know, I love that TRUE BLOOD TV show, but I haven't read any of the novels.

Gal: I have them all. They're all quite different from the TV show... But, I love TRUE BLOOD too.

Guy: Nice. I hate the fact that we have to wait two weeks for the season finale... I can't wait to see what will happen to Eric. By the way, that's my own name, Eric.

Gal: Really? Well, believe it or not, my name's Jessica... But my friends call me Jessie.

Guy: No kidding? What a coincidence.

Gal: I know.

The waiter brings the order and the two have a very pleasant conversation during a very pleasant afternoon. The rest of the story writes itself. Hint, hint, hint.

Now, here's an example of harassment by assholes:

Our single solitary woman in question is still sitting at the bistro while drinking her latte and reading her book. But instead of the scenario that I've shown before, the following happens;

Harassment by an asshole:

Guy: {While walking on the sidewalk past Gal} Hey, B*tch! I've got something that you can Sookie-Sookie on right here!

There you go. I hope that that demonstrates to you what the difference is. Got it?


Seventh, IF can't listen to what women are telling you about how they are being treated, then you're doing yourselves and women in general a grave disservice. Women like those who are in your own family, or the ones that you profess to care deeply about, or the women that you're otherwise acquainted with in your day-to-day goings on, and right now, the women of DU who are telling you, in no uncertain terms what the deal is.

You're NOT listening, if you object to the message.

Finally, OF course, the HARDEST thing that one can do sometimes is admit when they are wrong. When women agree with the given message that you so vociferously object to, the fact is is that YOU are just plain wrong.

So, let me explain it to you ONE MORE TIME...

You ought to listen to what the women of DU are telling you, because they're telling you the truth. Otherwise, you're in denial.



So, if you're wont, attack some more. Prove to everyone here just how clueless you are.

Besides, what else can you do... Change your mind maybe?

[Name removed]

640. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SeattleGirl]

641. Did you skip over the part where he talked about the difference

in the cultures in the Lounge and GD?

Good heavens, women, including myself, have posted similar things in the Lounge. I've said I like men's asses. What you aren't getting is that saying you like a certain part of a body is NOT the same as making rude catcalls, or using my example, grabbing someone's ass. I would not do that. I would not make rude, sexually suggestive remarks to a man on the street. I would not walk up to him and put my hand on his crotch.

Admiring the human body is NOT wrong, and is NOT sexist. Saying you do is also NOT wrong and is NOT sexist. Neither of those things are harassment or abuse.

But ACTING on them by making catcalls, not treating someone with respect, walking up to someone and touching their body just because you want to (and by you, I mean anybody who thinks they have the right to do that, when one is not invited to do so), that IS wrong, and it IS harassment.

If you've noticed the responses from the women in this thread, we are responding positively to what the OP said. That should tell you something. Many of the men responding, however, are taking it as a personal affront, and I just don't get that. The OP did NOT say that all men are potential rapists. He did NOT say that every man is a jerk. He did NOT say that no man treats a woman with respect.

Perhaps you should give the women who responded to the thread, whether directly to the OP or to the men who responded to it, the benefit of the doubt, and accept the fact that WE KNOW what lack of respect for us as women and as people, looks and feels like. WE KNOW. To say, as someone did more than once, that we have been "punked", is just another example of a man thinking that women don't know when we are not being treated well. It's another way of saying "Men know better than women". I find that to be appalling, to say the least.

[MrScorpio]

644. Thank you very much nt

[Nye Bevan]

659. My issue is with someone trying to set up a "breasteses club for men" in a Lounge thread while

preaching about "respect for women" in a GD thread. I can't quite achieve that level of cognitive dissonance; I guess you can.

[MrScorpio]

663. Attack the messenger all you want...

Use that tactic to tell everyone who agrees with the message that they're all wrong.


Let's see how that works for you.

[joshcryer]

697. I'm more annoyed by the "paid models" defense.

No one is perfect (you'd be hard pressed to find me saying shit like that, though hey I may have in the past, I spent several hours looking for lurid statements I may have typed, couldn't find anything), so I can mostly overlook such crap.

[MrScorpio]

709. A strange world that we live in that women get paid to pose with cars

Next you'll be telling me about the horrors that go on in R rated movies.

[seabeyond]

711. it is bullshit objectifying. and ya, it is our world. our sex obsessed world using women over and

over for male entertainment....as we are accused of being puritans.

it is bullshit

and it is reality

it is the male game. if it were truly not about sexist bullshit for men then there would be beef cake there too. but male ego, while looking at cars cant handle it.

there

done with that one

and scorpio

thanks for the op and video.

[MrScorpio]

713. Thank you for standing by my side

I really appreciate it.

[seabeyond]

715. bah hahahaha

so tell me, was that standing by your side or not.

was that sincere, or snarky

lol

it could go either way on my post

[MrScorpio]

722. No snark at all

You're damn good in a fight

I really appreciate it.

[seabeyond]

725. thanks

i wasnt sure.

[MrScorpio]

726. No , thank you for requesting a clarification

I appreciate it when people are direct with me.

[joshcryer]

746. *shrug* I don't objectify women but I suppose I can't stop you from doing so.

I just don't like hypocrisy.

[MrScorpio]

755. Well, obviously you know your stuff...

Say... Do me a favor, will ya?




The next time you go to an auto show, could you kindly inform the Car Models that you object to them being objectified?





I'm interested in know what their reply would be.

[joshcryer]

771. I don't go to car shows, but I have rebuilt over a dozen cars. Why don't I go to car shows?

Because I used to go to them and found that the glitz and glamor was about commodification of everything, including and especially women. I rebuild older cars, though, so I am probably not suited for the new car types of shows where women are more likely to be objectified (I never saw anything like that during a Ford Torino meetup I had awhile back).

If I do see a car model, though, by chance, I might let them know I think it's sad that they feel that they have to sell a consumerized body image to survive in life, and that it's unfortunate that they'll be discarded in a few years if they don't keep giving themselves upgrades to maintain that artificial image.

[SeattleGirl]

784. Well, isn't that just peachy of you?

You are assuming that these women really had no choice in what they are doing.

That they had no idea that they would be looked at for their nice bodies and beautiful clothing.

That they might be objectified.

Did it ever occur to you that women DO have choices, and that sometimes, their choice is to use one of their best attributes, their bodies, to make a living?

Who do you think you are, to tell them that, gee, honey, sorry you had to do this?

[MrScorpio]

788. Damn skippy. nt

[joshcryer]

848. Very few people have real choices in our capitalist society.

Who do you think you are, to tell them that, gee, honey, sorry you had to do this?

You're right, I probably wouldn't say that to someone I don't know. I was being snarky.

But I damn sure would think it.

[SeattleGirl]

852. Thinking it is one thing.

Believe me, I've had thoughts I would not share in public.

But saying it is altogether another thing.

I'm just saying that women often DO make very conscientious choices that might include things that others would frown upon.

They would not be choices I would make, but I will not sit in judgment upon them, nor would I walk up to them and tell them I was sorry they made that choice, because I would truthfully not have any idea of why they made that choice.

[joshcryer]

855. I'm not against porn or models or anything like that.

I'm against the consumerization aspect of it all. It's one thing to film a partner and yourself having sex and posting it online for others to enjoy, it's another thing entirely to be getting gang banged by 20 guys to get a paycheck later on. It's one thing to model for car shows for a paycheck, it's another thing to do a charity car wash to help the baseball team.

Yes, both are objectifying at a low level, but one lacks coercion and the other doesn't. That's why the paid models part bothered me. I'd have been less bothered if his car show group had non-paid models who did it for fun, like for a calendar or whatever. BIG plus if they're regular people.

[MrScorpio]

643. Frankly, if you're going to persist in this silliness that you're up to...

I'm absolutely CERTAIN that the women of DU are quite aware about the message that you're sending to them by acting this way, my friend.

BTW, the LOUNGE post in question was made in reply to an OP BY A WOMAN. I invite everyone to click on the link and read the entire thread.

I don't have anything to apologize for.

And if this all you got, my man, you need to come after me with something a little stronger than this.

Enjoy yourself.

[Odin2005]

693. Yup, the assholes are really outing themselves, aren't they?

:puke:

[joshcryer]

698. Show *one post* where someone "jumped in" and "made excuses" for continued harassment of women.

ONE. You won't be able to do it because your narriative is an utterly dishonest portrayal of those who disagreed with your utterly asinine "advice." Your OP was not advice, it was meant to feed on a recent discussion here. It worked. You got a lot of responses.

[seabeyond]

700. denying that the harrassment exists is a form of allowing it to continue. nt

[joshcryer]

702. You already admitted to me that said posts don't exist here. So it's a made up, dishonest, narrative

I'd be ashamed if I made up as much stuff about other people.

[seabeyond]

708. wtf are you talking about. the reason for this op was a thread, full of men denying that

harrassment happens to women. wtf are you talking baout i "admitted" shit.

[joshcryer]

744. Oh, I thought you response was an admission to that in #532.

Apparently not. That's disappointing, because you must really think there are posters in this thread "denying harassment happens to women."

Wonderful.

[MrScorpio]

705. If you so right...

Why doesn't everyone, especially DU women, object to my OP and jump in YOUR bandwagon?

And frankly, I'm not in the mood to embarrass certain people, who are clueless about the plight of women, more than they already are. That would be piling on.

Besides, some the most egregious posts have already been alerted on and removed.

and lastly, I've said this before, if you're telling women that they're wrong about how they are treated, then you're asking for trouble... It's things like that that actually feeds on discussions.

[joshcryer]

745. I can't give a clear answer for that. But it would be easy to show me the posts in question.

Why don't you do it? BECAUSE YOU ARE FEEDING INNUENDO AND DISHONESTY.

Here's just one example of dishonest character slander against me by the women in this thread:

i want to fuck you in the ass is your sweet talk

show me your tits.

like your ass

bend over for me, baby.

I cannot believe how dishonest and evil the people in this thread are behaving.

BTW, not that many posts have been removed from this thread, which is a testament to how civilized the disagreers are being.

[MrScorpio]

750. I was referring to the cartoon thread's removed posts

Where all of this stuff started and what inspired my OP in the first place.

Frankly, in my own thread, I hope that I've been a civilizing influence myself.

Also, I made it clear from the git-go that demeaning women is not a good idea.

So, I guess it's no surprise that more overt misogyny hasn't reared its ugly head around this entire discussion

[joshcryer]

757. Yes, it seems as if people are really talking about the cartoon thread which did have some of that.

However, the allegations in this thread are downright deceitful because they do not apply to this thread. BTW, I counted. 5 deleted posts in more than 500. Less than 1% of posts deleted. It's a joke.

From my POV about 80% of the posts have nothing to do with "advice for guys" and another 15% are solely composed of insults for males. That's just a rough guess, but I think it's fair.

[Lucian]

642. It's not DU unless a good thread topic goes downhill fast.

And attacking someone for something he wrote six years ago is stupid.

Apparently people can't change in six years. :eyes:

[MrScorpio]

645. And context means nothing. nt

[Name removed]

658. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SeattleGirl]

662. I find it somewhat amusing that the women on this thread

accept the OP and what he said, and we didn't throw up our hand in horror at the links to his lounge posts, whereas the men did.

Hmmmm, curiouser and curiouser.

[snagglepuss]

688. So true. This is one the most eye opening threads I've ever read.

I don't understand what triggered this feeding frenzy. What did Mr Scorpio trigger in the psyches of some male DUers? Do these guys see the OP as one-upmanship in the sensitivity dept?

[joshcryer]

703. Eh, it doesn't surprise me one bit that a 40k+ poster has friends here.

I find it amusing that women are quick to latch on to an objectifying person. No, no one is perfect, but the guy has said in some of these past posts stuff far worse than anyone who disagreed with his OP.

[seabeyond]

710. what are you calling the women on this thread josh. stupid. gullible. fools. man up and say it

i have explained on many posts when you men played your "gothca" game last night. every. damn. one. of my posts. was. ignored.

you didnt listen to a fuckin one of my posts. i reasonably explained my position. YOU ignored.

i have to assume, you are one of the ones that is beyond discussion, and you are just an ass.

pretend like you dont fuckin understand. keep repeating us silly little women, gullible fools that we are....

fuck you

[joshcryer]

747. Your posts were littered with innuendo and dishonest characterizations.

You put words into peoples mouths and I responded to each and every one of your posts.

YOU NEVER PROVIDED PROOF FOR YOUR DISHONEST ALLEGATIONS.

[joshcryer]

749. And, fyi, no, I wouldn't call one stupid, gullible, or a fool for agreeing with the OP. Fatuous..

...would be more accurate. And, FYI, it's not "just women" as there are plenty of men who complacently fell for the specifically directed arguments in the OP.

[MrScorpio]

751. Well, guess that says it all....

You're right and everyone else is wrong.





Gee.





Let's lock up and head out for a beer folks... The party's over!

[joshcryer]

759. Not at all, I'm happy to be corrected, which is why I ask for, yaknow, evidence.

Like when so many people in this thread called out others with absolute mendacity.

[SeattleGirl]

752. Fatuous? Well, bless your pea pickin' hide, josh!

I have nevah, NEVAH, been called fatuous before in MAH life!

Pardon me now, but I must go get the smelling salts, as my poor li'l ol' girlish constitution just can't stand it!

[joshcryer]

760. Eh, I'm just as bad, really.

The whole thing is pointless as there is hardly any actual discourse going on, mostly insults and irreverence.

[SeattleGirl]

773. Well, guess who started the insults?

It was most of the men who responded to this thread. Who think that women can't think for themselves. Who think that we don't fucking KNOW when we're being harassed and when we're not. Who think that because the OP has made some posts in the post in the freaking LOUNGE that some felt compelled to post here to try and knock him down, that the females responding to the OP just don't know what the fuck is going on, and gee whiz, we must be just too stupid for words.

You know what I find insulting? You and the rest of the sand box boys, and your petulant, childish behavior on this thread. You are displaying much of the behavior the OP cautioned against.

Don't believe me?

Well, I can understand that, because you aren't a woman.

Let me give you an example, though this one is about race. Back in '04, I attended my local caucus. Our voting place is in a security apartment building. I hated it, because if someone wasn't right there to let me in, I had to start banging on the windows to get someone to let me in. Well, at this caucus, in my little break-out group, there was a black couple who were probably in their late 60's. You know what? THEY saw it as potential voter suppression, especially against blacks. I had never thought of that. It had just not occurred to me, because it was a bit more subtle than blatant racism. I had just seen it as an inconvenience.

Believe me, I sat up and took notice. I did NOT tell them they were being too sensitive, or chuckle at them, or do some kind of crap in pursuit of some offensive happy dance. This white woman listened to them, and LEARNED.

I suggest you do the same, and knock it the fuck off with your pearl clutching and continuation of putting women down.

[joshcryer]

775. You are making stuff up, give out a post number evidencing my "behavior the OP cautioned against."

Women can absolutely think for themselves, the fatuous behavior displayed in this thread is not exclusive to women, by any means.

[SeattleGirl]

778. No, I am not making stuff up.

Your behavior on this thread, as well as the behavior of some of the other men, is disgusting and reprehensible, not the least of which is because you seem to think that 1) the OP is a misogynistic liar, and 2) because ALL of the women who responded directly to him on this post were positive and supportive of what he said, are being "punked" to use the word of another male respondent.

I find that very offensive, and if you still don't understand why, I suggest you lock yourself in a room and spend some time thinking about it.

To think that YOU, with your ugly posts, knows better than any woman on this thread about the subject of the OP is just flat out insulting.

[joshcryer]

792. I provided an explaination for my reasons against the OP.

I provided further explanation as to why I believe the OP was "overwhelmingly supported." Now, the thing is, I'm not saying people "don't understand." Indeed, I went out of my way to explain why I believe the OP is not what it appears to be at first glance, and the OP did not object to my characterizations, nor did any of the "more understanding" people in this thread join in to explain where somehow I got it wrong. This leads me to conclude that they haven't looked at it from that perspective before.

Can you explain how my posts are "ugly"? Just one quote. Tell me how you feel about one of my posts and what the words convey to you. How am I supposed to learn if you cannot illustrate my "ugly" posts?

Let me explain to anyone reading: you, and many posters like yourself in this thread, are not about having a nice discussion, but rather, about demeaning and insulting anyone you perceive as a threat, regardless of their actual positions.

[SeattleGirl]

798. Give it up, okay?

Just give it up.

Not a single woman on this thread has agreed with your posts.

Not a single woman on this thread thinks that you are correct.

We SEE what you are doing, and we do not like it.

Just give it up.

[joshcryer]

820. I probably will when I get bored and don't see the thread bumped.

But until then I won't let people walk over me like you are doing (note, my grievance is with both males and females, which is why I've been using "singular they" and not referring to gender).

[SeattleGirl]

823. Sorry, but you invited the "walk all over you" stuff.

Many of the posts you've made on this thread are reprehensible to say the least, and do not show the slightest bit of respect for women.

You obviously don't recognize that, but perhaps if you gave it some thought, you might be able to see it.

[joshcryer]

832. Since you cannot back up your "reprehensible" claim, I do not consider your post a criticism.

And cannot learn from it in any way. However, it is my experience that people who cannot back up what they say, likely cannot. So no "thought" can be "given."

:shrug:

[SeattleGirl]

836. .....

:eyes:

[joshcryer]

850. The content here reflects the content of the vast majorty of posts in this thread.

Most indubitably. ;D

[MrScorpio]

826. Let me tell you my approach to what you've been saying about me.

I know for a fact that you really have no idea what kind of person I am. My complications or otherwise. Some folks here on DU do know me much better than you will ever have the desire to... and they made it very clear that you have no idea what you're talking about.

So, of course, I'm going to disregard your depictions of my character, because I'm not the only one who knows that your opinions aren't valid.

You see, if you want to get a proper response out of me, then you're going to have to figure out who you're dealing with.

So until you do, go ahead and continue to swing wildly...


You're bound to hit something now and again.

[joshcryer]

837. I made no comments about who you are as a person except from subthread at post #697.

I am not depicting your character, I am interpreting your words.

[MrScorpio]

841. Character assassination was implied

And again, you disregarded other, more notable posters' interpretations of my words for your own.

Take the focus off of me, if you can.

It'll give you a better perspective about what's being discussed.

[joshcryer]

849. Other peoples interpretations I feel are skewed by their biases, and I've explained my disagreement.

...with those interpretations. Indeed, I wrote my own interpretation and I've yet to get any dissenting opinion on the matter, as it's clear that your Original Post focused on "meeting women and making them want to have sex with you."

[MrScorpio]

853. Well, you're one the few people to take it that way

Hence the protracted discourse that we seem to find ourselves in.

[joshcryer]

856. I had several people who agreed with my post, but they're not as vocal as others here.

You are primarily being defended by a real life friend here, and that is perfectly understandable. Whether or not the others here even saw my post or understand where I am coming from is up for debate.

[Lucian]

674. He could've "seen the light" this morning.

It makes no difference if it was six years ago or three years ago on what he wrote.

We're supposed to be liberals and give people the benefit of the doubt.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

691. He "saw the light" when he posted it.

Here's the deal.

I have my own vocabulary. You have yours. Mr. Scorpio has his. But I took a look at the thread you linked to, and while you (and others) may take issue with the words he used to make his point...and while (I am assuming) you posted that link to discredit his current post, what was the basic message?

Women come in all shapes and sizes and an "issue" was being made in the media, at that time, about the size of Jennifer Love Hewitt.

Seriously, go back and read the post. Look at what was discussed in that thread. At the time, Ms. Hewitt was being portrayed as a circus freak in the media. Mr. Scorpio re-focused attention on the fact that she was a human being.

I really would like to believe that you are shocked by his references in that thread to "junk in their trunk" and "round asses".

Now, I know this is going to shock you...and I am not posting this to upset you, just to give you an opportunity to consider looking at the bigger picture...

...I have...I swear on my life...been in the presence of women who have openly discussed "big cocks."

Really! It's TRUE! And they were even SMILING while doing so! Pretty reprehensible behavior, right?

Men and women speak in varying degrees of "political correctness," and like it or not...as I have said elsewhere in this thread...Mr. Scorpio is a shoot-from-the-hip kind of guy. I have never seen him deliberately try to offend anyone, male or female. But he also does not filter what he has to say or how he chooses to say it.

You posted a link to a three year old thread. I'm not saying he was "right" or "wrong" in his choice of words at that time. It's not my business, and I have no horse in that race.

Go back and read the original thread. If you want to discredit this man's character, you're going to have to come up with a better link than that.

[Name removed]

704. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrScorpio]

706. So are you saying that men can't have breasts?

Do you want fries with that shake?

[seabeyond]

714. i saw a nude bike ride in lounge tonight couldn't tell woman from men... i think they were all men

and saw so very many breasts.

[MrScorpio]

716. It's amazing what one sees when they actually step out into the real world

Sort of flies in the face of other people's ideas

[Amerigo Vespucci]

712. He wasn't refocusing attention on anything...

...he made a joke in thread about breasts in which the original poster was...

...drumroll...

A WOMAN!

GASP! Alert the villagers! Gather the torches!



And think about this...

...not only did a number of DU women contribute to that thread, but no one said they were "offended"...

She posted a joke thread which was actually a copycat thread and everyone there...everyone...had fun with it. So if you want to be fair, you might want to go after everyone who participated in that thread and post the link in one of their most recent threads.

Of course, if you did that, you'd be "calling out" your fellow DUers, which is a violation of the rules here, and pretty much what you'll be doing if you keep ramping up the rhetoric and posting those links. Mr. Scorpio is a gentleman and will probably take whatever you continue to dish out unless you REALLY cross a line, but other DUers might not feel the same way.

It's perfectly OK for you to not enjoy or appreciate Mr. Scorpio's posts. Hell, I have people who come after me all the time in my own threads. They're entitled to their opinions.

But if you're trying to discredit him, you're going to work a hell of a lot harder at it than you have so far in this thread.

Then again, why would you want to do that? You've got to have better ways to spend your time.

You didn't like what he posted, or the way he posted it. I'm sure he understands that an appreciates the time you took to express your opinion, as we all do.

[Name removed]

717. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrScorpio]

720. Dude, you're like a stuck record

Do you actually have any valid objections to the OP or the cartoon in question?

Or are you going to persist in wasting everyone's time with your silliness?

Obviously, you don't spend any amount of significant time in the Lounge, so why should anyone think that you know what you're talking about?

It's been explained to you by myself and by others... But you keep embarrassing yourself.

Where's your game, man?

Where's your game?

[Amerigo Vespucci]

721. You're adept with links. I have one for you. It addresses what you're doing right now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

How We Enforce The Discussion Forum Rules
This is a detailed explanation of how we enforce the basic message board rules.

Last updated February 1, 2006.

Civility

Personal Attacks, Civility and Respect

The administrators of Democratic Underground are working to provide a place where progressives can share ideas and debate in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Despite our best efforts, some of our members often stray from this ideal and cheapen the quality of discourse for everyone else. Unfortunately, it is simply impossible to write a comprehensive set of rules forbidding every type of antisocial behavior. The fact that the rules do not forbid a certain type of post does not automatically make an uncivil post appropriate, nor does it imply that the administrators approve of disrespectful behavior. Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner, and to help foster an atmosphere of thoughtful discussion. In this regard, we strongly advise that our members exercise a little common decency, rather than trying to parse the message board rules to figure out what type of antisocial behavior is not forbidden.

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other individual members of this discussion board. Even very mild personal attacks are forbidden.

Do not hurl insults at other individual members of this message board. Do not tell someone, "shut up," "screw you," "fuck off," "in your face," or some other insult.

Do not call another member of this message board a liar, and do not call another member's post a lie. You are, of course, permitted to point out when a post is untrue or factually incorrect.

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican, FReeper, or troll, or do not otherwise imply they are not welcome on Democratic Underground. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post to let the moderators know.

Do not draw negative attention to the fact that someone is new, has a low post count, or recently became a member of Democratic Underground. Do not insinuate that because someone is new, they are a troll or disruptor.

Do not accuse entire groups of people on Democratic Underground of being conservative disruptors, or post messages which spread this type of suspicion. Do not post topics that arouse suspicion against new members, or members with low post counts.

Do not say that you are hitting the alert link to report another member. You are permitted to tell someone that you are adding them to your ignore list, provided that you actually do so.

Do not "stalk" another member from one discussion thread to another. Do not follow someone into another thread to try to continue a disagreement you had elsewhere. Do not talk negatively about an individual in a thread where they are not participating. Do not post messages with the purpose of "calling out" another member or picking a fight with another member. Do not use your signature line to draw negative attention to another member of the board.

You are permitted to post polite behavioral corrections to other members of the message board, in direct response to specific instances of incivility, provided that your comments are narrowly focused on the behavior. But you are not permitted to make broad statements about another person's behavior in general, and you are not permitted to post repeated reminders about another person's mistakes.

You are permitted to criticize public figures, who are not protected under our rules against personal attacks. However, if a public figure is a member of our community, that person is protected by our rules and you are not permitted to personally attack that person. (You are permitted to offer constructive criticism of their activities as a public figure.)

If you do not like someone, please be aware that you have the option of putting that person on your ignore list. Just click the ignore icon on one of their posts.

There are no exceptions to these civility rules. You cannot attack someone because they attacked you first, or because that person "deserved it," or because you think someone is a disruptor. We consider it a personal attack to call a liar a liar, to call a moron a moron, or to call a jerk a jerk.

[Nye Bevan]

723. I read your post in detail and I honestly do not see one rule that I have broken

which probably explains why none of my posts in this thread have been deleted.

[MrScorpio]

724. Just ridiculed

There's no accounting for taste

[Amerigo Vespucci]

729. OK, I'll help you with that.

Your posts haven't been deleted primarily due to the fact that since Mr. Scorpio is the original poster in the thread, and you are doing some form of link bombing / seeking agreement experiment that isn't going that well, the rest if DU is sitting back and letting him decide if he wants to alert the mods. That may change, depending on how weary people become of your repeated calling out of the original poster, Mr. Scorpio.

You obviously have a very clear objective regarding what you want to accomplish. Maybe you could just lay it all out instead of that link thing. Notice how no one has high-fived you yet on your detective work?

Civility

Personal Attacks, Civility and Respect

The administrators of Democratic Underground are working to provide a place where progressives can share ideas and debate in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Despite our best efforts, some of our members often stray from this ideal and cheapen the quality of discourse for everyone else. Unfortunately, it is simply impossible to write a comprehensive set of rules forbidding every type of antisocial behavior. The fact that the rules do not forbid a certain type of post does not automatically make an uncivil post appropriate, nor does it imply that the administrators approve of disrespectful behavior. Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner, and to help foster an atmosphere of thoughtful discussion. In this regard, we strongly advise that our members exercise a little common decency, rather than trying to parse the message board rules to figure out what type of antisocial behavior is not forbidden.

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other individual members of this discussion board. Even very mild personal attacks are forbidden.

Do not hurl insults at other individual members of this message board. Do not tell someone, "shut up," "screw you," "fuck off," "in your face," or some other insult.

Do not call another member of this message board a liar, and do not call another member's post a lie. You are, of course, permitted to point out when a post is untrue or factually incorrect.

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican, FReeper, or troll, or do not otherwise imply they are not welcome on Democratic Underground. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post to let the moderators know.

Do not draw negative attention to the fact that someone is new, has a low post count, or recently became a member of Democratic Underground. Do not insinuate that because someone is new, they are a troll or disruptor.

Do not accuse entire groups of people on Democratic Underground of being conservative disruptors, or post messages which spread this type of suspicion. Do not post topics that arouse suspicion against new members, or members with low post counts.

Do not say that you are hitting the alert link to report another member. You are permitted to tell someone that you are adding them to your ignore list, provided that you actually do so.

Do not "stalk" another member from one discussion thread to another. Do not follow someone into another thread to try to continue a disagreement you had elsewhere. Do not talk negatively about an individual in a thread where they are not participating.

Do not post messages with the purpose of "calling out" another member or picking a fight with another member.

Do not use your signature line to draw negative attention to another member of the board.

You are permitted to post polite behavioral corrections to other members of the message board, in direct response to specific instances of incivility, provided that your comments are narrowly focused on the behavior. But you are not permitted to make broad statements about another person's behavior in general, and you are not permitted to post repeated reminders about another person's mistakes.

You are permitted to criticize public figures, who are not protected under our rules against personal attacks. However, if a public figure is a member of our community, that person is protected by our rules and you are not permitted to personally attack that person. (You are permitted to offer constructive criticism of their activities as a public figure.)

If you do not like someone, please be aware that you have the option of putting that person on your ignore list. Just click the ignore icon on one of their posts.

There are no exceptions to these civility rules. You cannot attack someone because they attacked you first, or because that person "deserved it," or because you think someone is a disruptor. We consider it a personal attack to call a liar a liar, to call a moron a moron, or to call a jerk a jerk.

[Nye Bevan]

732. OK, I admit I missed the rule about "repeated reminders about another person's mistakes"

which I have arguably contravened in this thread. So I will not draw any attention to the OP's past transgressions. I am fairly confident that he will not be making the same mistake again.

[MrScorpio]

734. With Deputy Dawg on the case, the web site is safe, I'm sure

Would you care to head over to the Lounge and lecture all the other Lizards on their deviated PREversions?

Hell, why stop with just me?

[Nye Bevan]

736. Only if they come to GD and post preachy, self-righteous screeds

that imply that most DU males do not know how to treat women. If any of them do, please send me a link. Thanks! :-)

[SeattleGirl]

737. Your repeated attempts to knock MrScorpio down are falling

flat, except with your fellow sand box mates.

[Nye Bevan]

739. He asked a question, I answered it. This was not an attempt to "knock him down".

In any case, I have stated that I am not going to post any more links to the OP's previous transgressions. And I have apologized. See post 738.

[MrScorpio]

740. I'll make sure to invite you to my next rant

You're funny

[Amerigo Vespucci]

735. You don;t need to feel confident about Mr. Scorpio seeking your approval

It's simple.

You know the rules.

If you don't like something he posts, you can alert the mods.

And if you do this again, I'm fairly confident he'll alert the mods about you.

[Nye Bevan]

738. "If you don't like something he posts, you can alert the mods."

I didn't like what he posted, but there was no point alerting the mods because I don't think he broke any DU rules. I didn't like what he posted because it struck me as hypocritical given his past history of posts demeaning to women, but hypocrisy does not break any DU rules. Perhaps I did go a bit overboard in reposting his many past transgressions, for which I apologize.

[seabeyond]

727. let me ask you Nye Bevan. do you think it is possible that scorpio has grown and become more

insightful in the last three days discussing this to the extent he has discussed it? really, not only did he think thru this op, and it was right on, and not only has he done some research for video, but he has interacted with women expressing what they feel and experience.

do you think he might be a better person for the last three days of this stuff?

i dont see how he could not be anything but a better person, in all he has aquired.

and i think that is what women are asking. for men to think... about this.

tell me, Nye Bevan. have you put any time in the thinking, listening and learning... maybe doing a bet of growing, becoming more insightful. do a little self reflecting, per your posts on this thread? really, is there a single damn thing that would lead a woman to believe that this has been productive for you at all, anywhere, pertaining to the issues?

[MrScorpio]

718. Water off a duck's back, my man

Water off a duck's back

[Name removed]

728. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

730. Yes, posting an insult in an Internet chat room is widely recognized as fearless behavior

I can see that you're not afraid, and if you've impressed the rest of DU half as much as you've impressed me, well...give yourself a pat on the back for your fearlessness.

[Taverner]

657. +1000000

If you are young and want to know how to woo the ladies, look no further than Mr. Scorpio

The man is a legend...a true legend

A gentleman and a scholar...

:hug:

[flvegan]

741. This thread's not gone well.

[MrScorpio]

742. Check out "Only Nixon Can Go To China"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9073202&mesg_id=9079502

It's gone well enough for me

[Name removed]

756. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demmiblue]

764. Lordy, are you full of shit!

[HEyHEY]

768. Full of shit for merely asking my gender not be constantly refered to as raping cavemen?

That's just the single minded,poorly thought out kind of bullshit answer I'm used to from your ilk.

[demmiblue]

770. No one has referred to you in that way.

My ilk? Seriously?

[HEyHEY]

772. Yes they have. How can you deny that, there's insults like that IN THIS THREAD

Yes, your ilk, unreasonable, venomous and not willing to show the slightest bit of decorum or thought when engaging with someone who holds an opinion that merely strays from your opinion by a small measure.

[demmiblue]

774. Poor you. You have no privelege in this world. Us Wimmins...

we are EVIL. OH NOES!

[HEyHEY]

777. Oh and here it comes again "divert the arguement"

When did I say that men don't have privileges? And does that mean that all men should be subjected to hateful rhetoric? Stick to the topic please, you're a classic example of a person just looking to fight, but you lack the tools to engage me and resort to predictable, tired bullshit.

[Name removed]

780. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HEyHEY]

785. Thank you for being such a perfect example of a mindless follower

The "read guard" of DU. If you don't lack the tools why are you resorting to telling me to Shut the Fuck up and accusing me of being drunk, though it's 3:00 in the afternoon where I am?

Also telling me I deserve abuse for pointing out something that you yourself FINALLY agreed with in your last post?

Take a look at yourself.

[demmiblue]

795. Your Welcome!

You are making things up.

P.S. I just went to the bathroom, looked in the mirror--- I look fine.

[HEyHEY]

800. Ah yes, now the accusations I'm "making things up" which won't be proven, of course

That train is never late. You're a genius. Does Obama's speechwriter know he's got some stiff competition nipping at his heels?

"My fellow Americans, those against this policy, need to shut the fuck up and stop making things up. I'll now take questions from the media."

[SeattleGirl]

801. Hey you!

Looks like we're on the same side in this particular sword fight! :toast:

[demmiblue]

803. lol!

Nice!


P.S. What an ---


:toast:

[HEyHEY]

807. Ah, to the name calling......

Notice how seattlegirl actually had some interesting counter points? It's called "A discussion" and I know you HATE having to think and all that, but it really is the whole point of dialoguing.

[demmiblue]

811. My excuse: 3:52 am

What is yours? Dialoguing? LOl!

[HEyHEY]

813. I've tried to talk with you, but you just call me names....

Maybe you should get some sleep.

[demmiblue]

814. No you haven't

After all, I am a woman.

Alien creatures to you.

[HEyHEY]

816. So now you're just going to deny and make sexist comments....

Yup, not surprised.

Also, having grown up with three women and having a lot of female friends, I'm not scared, afraid of, or lacking in understanding of women. I just don't like men being overly demonized... yet, here you are, again trying to make me look sexist when I've not done or said anything that could be construed that way.

Sigh........

[SeattleGirl]

817. Yep, I know.

:fistbump:

[HEyHEY]

819. Oh, so I guess I was wrong in being impressed by your civil posts earlier

You want to call me an ass too? Well done, way to go you're a fucking genius too.

[SeattleGirl]

821. No.

I wouldn't call you an ass, not at all.

But I do think you are being a bit obtuse as to the primary point of this thread.

Again, I do not paint all men with the same brush.

That would be as unfair of me, as it would for a man who did the same of women.

And yes, there are men and women both who do that.

Part of my response to the other poster had to do with an exchange we had in another thread. That was probably unfair here; sort of an "inside joke" kind of thing.

Anyway, I've always seen you as a pretty cool guy, and have liked the posts you do.

So, with due respect, I hope that you can see what women in this thread are up in arms about, and that we don't see all men as being the same. Many of us are married to men. :)

That's primarily what we are saying in this thread: that there are men who are indeed asses.

And that the referenced cartoon depicted that.

It doesn't mean that we think all men are the same, or all men do that.

[HEyHEY]

824. Ah, okay, that's good

Cause I always liked you too. I know not all women think that way, believe it or not, I have dated women for long periods of time, which means at least SOME women can stands me.

But seriously, my issues is that I just wish some of the more militant people here chill out a bit and stop swarming men who may disagree. Sure, if some total neanderthal comes on then have at it, but some of the brutality that has been unleashed on guys here is uncalled for.

[SeattleGirl]

833. I don't know if you've read through the entire thread (yeah, it's

a long one), but there are men on it who say that the women have been "punked" by MrScorpio's post, as if we are nothing but empty headed bimbo's who can't think for themselves. I know that I, and many of the women on this thread, really object to that. Those are the kinds of men we are going after.

I know that I for one don't look askance at a man just because he's a man. I love men, generally. But the ones who act like neanderthals, I will go after. That doesn't mean you are in the same boat as they are.

I'm just asking that you give the same consideration to women. Women who want to be respected, and the men who do so, are really on the same side.

[joshcryer]

846. It's "you're" not "your."

Fuuuuck, I hope you're not a woman because I was told to stop telling the women their* wrong!

*(intentional >:))

[HEyHEY]

851. That poster's been kicked by a donkey

[SeattleGirl]

765. You know what, though? That kind of offensive behavior DOES

go on and on.

Every single day.

To many women.

That cartoon spoke volumes to me, and to many other women.

And maybe you yourself do not need the talk, or maybe you do.

But there really IS a battle going on, and women are the target of that battle.

[HEyHEY]

769. Where did I ever deny that happens?

Just like I said, as soon as I mention that I don't appreciate the over-the-top hatred toward all men that seems to exist here the answer I get is "Well it happens" I'm not denying that it does, I"m not even wanting to dispute that.

But then people accuses me of thinking that and here we are talking about that when I'm trying to bring the issue of uniting people instead of alienating groups.

[SeattleGirl]

782. Pardon me, but I do not "hate all men". Not in the least.

I pretty much don't hate most men.

And I'm certainly not pointing a finger at you for being this, that, and thus.

I'm just saying that there are some men who are neanderthals, and those are the ones my remarks are primarily targeted at.

If you do not act in that manner, then there is no need for you to take offense.

Believe me, there ARE plenty of men out there who do not treat women very well at all, who do see us only as objects. That is what a lot of the responses from the women on this thread are about.

I know that I, and I think a lot of us, don't paint all men with a big brush.

Just as I know that a lot of men don't do that to women.

[HEyHEY]

786. I wasn't speakign that you hate all men, just the way I wrote the sentence

See, my contention is that, on DU, men seem to have been painted with that broad brush. All I've done is point it out and people have gone completely insane on me. Not you, but check out some of the other responses and such.

[demmiblue]

799. At the same time, some lurking DUers have seen what crappy behavior you have had...

over the years in regards to women.

[HEyHEY]

804. I've never had a bad attitude towards women

I've been in many a fight with people on the same issue I'm arguing about now. And my attitude has never been have as childish, paltry and venomous as those attacking me.

The irony is that I've likely done more for women's rights than half the people yelling at me just through my old job.

[joshcryer]

766. Oh boy, the insults levied at people who disagreed on this thread are so golden.

Thankfully, I'm a white 30 something male and nothing offends me. I'm impervious to everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY

It seems there's a cabal of women on this board only interested in fighting men and espousing how much better women are than men instead of trying to fight sexism. Maybe they need the talk, not us.

Wow.

:popcorn:

[seabeyond]

887. you understand, though a comedian, he was exactly talking about the racism and sexism in the world

that the white male does. not. get.

so he is basically agreeing with everyone on this thread

but

YOU

[seabeyond]

888. i am lmao. you are so " impervious " to it, you dont get it. jeeeezus.

give us another youtube that furthers OUR argument.

[Dystopian]

982. Good point.

I think he's still searching for another video ...


peace~

[MrScorpio]

891. Nice dig on institutionalized white male privilege there...

Great vid!

[MrScorpio]

779. Do you mind IF I point a few things out?

I know that it's shocking to find it necessary to call the bad behavior of some men on the carpet this time... But it seems to me that the problem with harassment of women stems from the fact that the assholes weren't called on the carpet enough to begin with. Couple that with encouragement, making excuses for them and just plain silence that implies consent, and it's no wonder why it's a problem.

About this rape thing... Implied rape was quite explicit in the cartoon. Anytime a women is threatened with the prospect of unwanted sexual assault committed against her, I think that it makes it plain as the noses on our faces what it means.

About that "smarter than thou" issue, I don't think it's a secret that SOME women are smarter than SOME men... So, it's not all that shocking to postulate that most misogynistic scumbags may not be members of the local MENSA chapter.

That "men not understanding" part, would you care to address that point to all the women who endorsed my OP... Because I don't think that they heard you the first time. I'll clue you in on a little secret, the person who wrote the OP was, in fact, a man.

And lastly, I'm sure that you understand DU's nature, in that many groups are represented here... and those groups who are parts of historically oppressed classes in this country have found a home in DU to freely express their fervent objection to the very real problems of class and privilege. Women are not exempt from these problems, even in 2010. Think about that for a moment. Let it percolate, if it will.

Don't you think that people have an absolute right to frame the circumstances of their status in their own terms?

By telling women, especially, that their concerns are not valid is a sure fire ticket to the doghouse. Trust me on this one.

[HEyHEY]

781. Dude, women aren't the one being told their concerns aren't valid, men are

There's not a single man on this website who doesn't understand the crap women have to put up with. All they are trying to say is that they found a cartoon offensive and inspiring hatred toward all men, not just the sexist ones.

Also, where do I ever deny ANYTHING about what women deal with? See, it's just one track with this place. I post about how I don't need a lecture, cause I don't (I managed to get through 31 years without raping anyone) and I get back another long post saying the exact same things, which is bascially telling me I don't understand that women deal with discrimination. I KNOW THEY DO, I'M NOT DENYING THEY DO. I'm asking people to stop thess wide spread machine gun style attacks on all men. Cause, guess what? The majority of men are, in fact, nice guys.

[MrScorpio]

787. I didn't take the cartoon as an attack on all men at all

I took it as an condemnation of assholes who just happen to be men.

The point of my OP was a reminder that it's not a good idea to be an asshole.

To interpret that as a broad based attack on the male gender is utterly ludicrous.

However, if we non-asshole men neglect to call our asshole brethren to account, it's quite evident that we're not doing our jobs as "nice guys".


Join the team, man! Join the team!

[HEyHEY]

789. I'm on the team

I just don't like the stuff that paints men with a broad brush. As I said before, if it were one or two frames of that cartoon, the same point could have been made and I wouldn't have thought a thing of it. But, when it goes on and on it's clearly trying to demonize men.

[MrScorpio]

791. I've drawn a few comics in my day and...

The cartoon looked just fine by me.

I don't think that criticizing the aesthetics helps your case, if it appears that you're attacking the message.

[HEyHEY]

794. Not my fault people can't read my posts entirely before attacking me

Mainly to work out their own demons. I think aesthetics are important, especially as, in this case, they turned a decent idea into...well....everything we've witnessed.

[SeattleGirl]

805. I have to disagree with you here, HeyHey.

I think the cartoon was demonizing men who actually act that way, not all men.

It's like with Sarah Palin. IMHO, she is dumb and dangerous, and not a good example of a woman to be admired.

I do not take offense at cartoons depicting her as such, because I know I am not like her.

I think (and yes, you may well agree with me) that men might want to look at that cartoon in the same way. It depicts the behavior of SOME men, but it is certainly not the same as saying, "all men are this way."

I that that I don't think that, and I think that a lot of other women are of the same set of mind.

[HEyHEY]

810. Yeah, I gotta hold to my opinion though

I think also that DU would be a much more productive place if only people would be reasonably civil about this issue as well. And I just think what hampers that is stuff that offends people, even if it doesn't offend others.

[joshcryer]

830. I thought the same. But I got attacked for it.

Indicating to some extent that certain people interpreted it as an attack on all men.

[joshcryer]

793. Neither did I. But I sure did get attacked a fuckton in that thread.

Just because I considered it a caricature and that women should take charge and not sulk away angrily in those situations.

[HEyHEY]

802. How dare you suggest anything to a woman unless you are one, don't you know that?

What happened to you is a good example of the desire to attack anything with a penis here. You were agreeing with them on that one, it's out of control here.

[MrScorpio]

815. In case you didn't notice it, the woman depicted was outnumbered

Take a look at this and tell me if you feel the same way:

http://www.youtube.com/user/stopstreetharassment#p/a/f/2/D2Qpi-fW6jA

[joshcryer]

825. Look at many of those videos on that channel.

They do not disagree with the advice I was giving. The caricature in the original cartoon was not helpful at all. I personally was not bothered by it, because I saw it as such, but when I pointed out, basically, how unhelpful it was, oh boy did I get it.

And I continue to get insulted even as I type. Oh well.

[HEyHEY]

828. That's how DU rolls. nt

[MrScorpio]

831. Well, you can fix all of that, you know...

Hint Hint

[joshcryer]

835. Yeah?

How about you tell me all about it.

[MrScorpio]

838. First up, it's best to stop telling all the women that they're wrong

And you're right.

Believe me, that attitude did not help your case one iota.

Notice how I didn't say anything about yours truly.

[joshcryer]

845. I'm pretty sure I'm telling men that they're wrong just as well.

See, it appears to me that you're taking this personally, and you're dividing up gender roles. I'm not. I use singular they, I don't mention male or female, and overall, I try to be coherent with my objections to various bits of cruft.

Your reply says it all really.

[MrScorpio]

847. I took the "Only Nixon Can Go to China" tack

I was quite clear about my motives.

It's right there in black and white.

[joshcryer]

854. I actually didn't have the heart to respond to your nonsensical "Nixon" post because it's worse...

...it's just absurd beyond belief.

Things like:

Third, IF you've objected to the message, then obviously, you're the person who is in MOST IN NEED of paying attention to it.

or

Fourth, IF you've objected to the message, then obviously, you've just told every woman who has agreed with it to go FUCK THEMSELVES.

In which case neither are true by any means. Utterly illogical.

If I object to the message, and I give a reasonable reply (which I have done over and over again), then it is up to you to explain why, then, my objection is wrong. You haven't done that. No one in this thread has given a credible response to what I've said (it's mostly been insults).

To those ends, simply objecting does not automatically mean one agrees with the negative sentiments displayed. Omission is not admission. I can object to flying on American Airlines, that doesn't mean I object to flying wholesale. Likewise I can object to an OP that sends the wrong dating advice message, and still be against, yaknow, rapists and sexual harassment.

[MrScorpio]

857. You're right and everyone else is wrong, I get that part

What YOU don't seem to get is that the OP WAS NOT ABOUT DATING.

You're projecting dating into it.

Harassing assholes don't want a date... they want to ESTABLISH THEIR PRIVILEGED DOMINANCE OVER WOMEN.

You've had that explained to you time and time again, and still you keep falling on this dating thing.

"Nixon" was quite explicit about the difference.


So tell me, do you really think that the male characters in the cartoon are depicted as all wanting a date? Is that you think is how women should be asked OUT ON A DATE?

[joshcryer]

858. The OP was about meeting women and making them want to have sex with you.

That is clear. Whether this is dating or not is obviously up for debate, I grant you that.

So tell me, do you really think that the male characters in the cartoon are depicted as all wanting a date? Is that you think is how women should be asked OUT ON A DATE?

Could you reasonably infer that from what I said or is this just a bullshit rhetorical question intended to seed the idea that I actually believe this garbage?

[MrScorpio]

859. Dude, take dating off of the table

I'm sure that it'll be much clearer if you do

[joshcryer]

860. This is actually the first time I mentioned "dating" in the ENTIRE THREAD.

I fully understand that you are talking about initial meetings with females which can lead to dating further along.

Your Nixon post even says as much. That's why I called it "dating advice."

I should have called it "relationship advice" since that is more ambiguous and not so easily picked at by people who are trying to avoid the hard hitting observations, like the fact that your OP is explicitly about how to meet women and "make them want to have sex with you."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

783. Guys, next time you're at a large gathering, look around and see who is

attracting the women?

Now you might find a movie-star handsome type with women who look like supermodels fluttering around him, but look closer.

You're likely to see a man who is decidedly ordinary looking, even funny looking, who is REALLY attracting the women.

What they have: intelligence, a way with words, wicked glints in their eyes, genuine kindness and consideration (even to people they don't want to have sex with).

What they lack: crudeness, self-pity, underlying anger, a tendency to make any topic all about THEM.

I've known dozens of men like that in my life, and not one of them was conventionally handsome.

They rarely get the supermodel types, but they get the women of quality. (They tend to marry fairly young, too, unfortunately for the rest of us.)

Years ago, some guy in the Lounge posted about seeing an absolutely gorgeous woman on the arm of a complete jerk. It never occurred to him that this outwardly beautiful women might be a jerkette, and therefore a perfect match for the jerk.

[MrScorpio]

790. Absolutely! nt

[joshcryer]

796. Yeah, but the "nice guys" don't attract women, either.

The "nice guys" wind up posting on forums about how "they can't get women but they're nice." The OP is an absolute blueprint for the "nice guy." The creepy sex-oriented guy who puts on this "really nice and respectful" facade the whole while thinking in his head about how he's going to get laid.

[SeattleGirl]

808. Goodness, but you sure seem to know a lot about the OP.

Tell me, how long have you actually known him?

Do you two get together on a regular basis? Share a beer?

Or do you follow him around to various places, and if so, can you give us examples of his "nice guy" behavior?

I HAVE met the OP in real life, and have been lucky enough to spend some time with him.

And guess what?

He really IS a nice guy.

I know that he appreciates women, and he's not shy about that. Nor is he shy about appreciating the female form.

I also know that he is heads and tails above the level of the sand box boys posting here.

[joshcryer]

827. OP means "original post" *not* "MrScorpio"

I made absolutely no statement about MrScorpio there. I was only explaining what the Original Post proposed.

[SeattleGirl]

839. Jeez, do you think I'm dumb or something?

Oh wait, don't answer that. I know you do.

And btw, MrScorpio WAS the OP, so my reference to him is accurate.

[joshcryer]

842. delete

double post

[joshcryer]

843. The post you responded to did not mention MrScorpio, and there is no indication you realized that.

I was talking explicitly about MrScorpio's statements, not MrScorpio himself. Your reply was nothing more than nonsense. This does not necessarily make you dumb, merely that your reading comprehension at this late of night may be lacking.

[MrScorpio]

809. I take it that you don't understand what women mean...

When they point out the problem with "nice guys", right?

I suggest that you ask some of them. You might not get the answer that you'd expect.

Also, I gather that you don't know too much about me outside of DU.

That's how I read the tone of your post here.

[joshcryer]

829. Oh, I absolutely do understand what women don't like about "nice guys" and I think the original post

...is a blueprint for the "nice guy" that most women are not attracted to. The one that treats them like their mother or sister while having sex in the back of their mind.

Really, if you didn't agree with my characterization of the original post, you ought to make it clear.

[MrScorpio]

834. That's a reasonable request

Here's some reading material to help you along:

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

[joshcryer]

840. I'm quite familiar with that essay.

And I stand by my statements that your Original Post is a blueprint for the "nice guy."

[seabeyond]

873. this is what tells women you dismiss adn dont listen to women. this is what tells us

that you see us as the little women to just stfu. many threads have had this discussion. many of us women are married to the good guys. i am leaving "nice" guys to a specific definition. and will now use good guys. i always thought of them as nice, but i am seeing a whole other thing with nice

you say his post is for nice guys and they wont get the girl. all of us are hooyah'ing the post. you are telling us.... you man... who say you listen, are telling us we dont know what the fuck we are talking about, when we say what we want in a man

then you tell us, that you get it.
i suggest, you dont even kinda get it.

[seabeyond]

864. the nice guys get the gal, marry and have a good life.... the "nice" guys on the net do their

hostility in a couple ways, think women are really stupid and when women recognizes and calls bullshit..... whines.

the good guys have been finishing first from beginning of time and the "nice" guys dont get it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

868. The other quality these men have is that they don't go around whining about

how "nice" they are.

What whiners think of as "nice" is usually a disagreeable combination of passive aggression, being boring, and mindless imitation of pickup techniques they've seen in the media--and a disinclination to consider the opinions of real women.

[seabeyond]

870. on the one hand tout the feminist credentials, on the other hand talk about the bitch that wont

do him cause he is a nice guy.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

874. Yeah, that too

In my younger days, I once had a bland, pleasant "nice" guy get angry and call me a bitch because I wouldn't go home with him after he took me out for a movie and pizza.

I told him that a) I wasn't to be bought, and I didn't like him enough to have sex with him "on a volunteer basis," and b) if he did want to buy sex, the town's red light district was on Such-and-such Street, only it would probably cost more than a movie ticket and a slice of pizza.

[seabeyond]

875. my favorite. a co worker. i wouldnt go out with. first, i was a virgin, then a lesbian and then

well, ya, you got it

a whore

when i went out with another.

but, ya, he was a "nice" guy.

who just could not believe i would not go out with him

[boppers]

806. I'm at large gatherings of men, and women, all the time.

My experience is a bit different.

The men who attract the most women are the ones who glint money, flash it frequently, and dispose of it easily.

The "good guys" watch from the sidelines, often lonely, but occasionally chatting somebody up to keep the party, and morale, going. They also work secondary security duty, mostly unpaid.

Then, at 2:30 am, we kick all the assholes out, and count their (now disposed of) money.

:evilgrin:

You can learn an amazing amount about gender politics from a strip club. You can learn even more when you're allowed into the after-hours culture. Brilliant women with Phd's in literature playing dumb, not-so-brilliant women researching subjects to figure out how to extract the maximum cash from a geeky client... it's like a non-stop anthropological wonderland.

[seabeyond]

866. so... you do your premise on two genders USING each other which has nothing to do with

relationship and give it to us all.

two genders dehumanizing each other to see what they can get

and this is your premise on how the genders work

ya

that is ONE of the problems today

good luck with that.

nice guys, sittin on the side lines of a fuckin strip club, without the money, not getting the gal

jeeeezus

[boppers]

957. Pretty shallow analysis.

The relationships are *incredibly* complex.

There are "nice guys" who don't use the situation, "nice girls" who don't use the situation, and a vast range of folks who *do* use each other, at various times, for various reasons.

[seabeyond]

961. the whole basis is use. use body to get money. use money to look at tits.

it is all about everyone using

[Lydia Leftcoast]

869. Well duh, if you're basing your ideas of male-female interactions on strip clubs!

The women there aren't looking for relationships. They're strictly in it for the money.

[boppers]

960. It's not that simple.

It gets very complex when a single dancer is looking for a companion, and "breaks the wall", and starts dating a customer or staff.

Add in polyamory, and things get... interesting.

[Odin2005]

886. The strip club isn't the real world

:eyes:

[boppers]

958. No, it's not, it's theater.

Life imitates art, and art imitates life.

That's where it becomes intellectually interesting, especially when boundaries cross.

[seabeyond]

962. it gets interesting when boundaries cross because they already started from an unnatural

and off balance position of using each other.

[demmiblue]

812. These types (besides one) do not deserve your attention.

IMHO

[seabeyond]

867. i have let them go..... there are guys on this thread bothered, truly bothered

because of the way addressed to them, and i get it. there are guys on this board bothered, but really, it is merely because it is calling their behavior out and they recognize and fight. i see them too....

lesson learned

[demmiblue]

822. Calling SEABEYOND! lulz!

:hi:

[seabeyond]

865. hey... fuck these guys that tell me.... i was gettin it on with my NICE guy hubby

a little busy for the misogynists bullshit.

lol lol

[BeHereNow]

844. So when are we getting married?

You rock.
BHN

[SeattleGirl]

861. Get in line, BHN!

B-)

[BoneDaddy]

871. Nice pendantic rant

Not that I disagree with the bulk of what you said, but its tone and your high horse on the delivery. I guess you needed to be stroked by the women in here but I found it to be feeding into the problem and a knock on your fellow men. Basically throwing us under the bus so you can be told what a great guy you are.

[seabeyond]

872. i bet it was.... but, two days after the thread it was addressing

a specific thread with an energy to it. granted, two days after, the feel is different.

i do get what you are saying

[MrScorpio]

880. Well, you figured is out... I'm a traitor to my gender

Which is disturbing, of course, because we both know than men can do no wrong.

[Curmudgeoness]

885. Ah, MrScorpio, I'm in love.....

:hug:

If all the women now lining up to marry you are not the real proof that you are awesome, I don't know what will get through to these Neanderthals.

[SeattleGirl]

890. Oooh, better watch out.

Any moment now, one of the sand box boys will be stopping by to let you know that you, along with me and every other female in this thread, have been "punked" by MrS. Because you know, we're just too air headed to know any different. :)

[Curmudgeoness]

900. Yeeeee Haaawww, bring it on. nt

[MellowDem]

892. Maybe you need to be reminded that men are people too...

who don't need to be subjected to this sanctimonious, condescending bullshit. :shrug:

[MrScorpio]

893. Well, since you're such a connoisseur of sanctimonious, condescending bullshit...

I just can't wait to read your review of mine in the next Zagat's.


"A little nutty, with a hint of marjoram... Four Stars!"

[MellowDem]

894. Remember, murdering people is bad Mr. Scorpio...

just thought you could use a reminder.

Anyone who disagrees with my point can let me know. :P

So don't call me out on my condescending bullshit, or it means you disagree with me and therefore you're a possible rapi.... I mean murderer. :evilgrin:

Hey, if you can't understand why this comes off the wrong way in your OP, then I'm guessing your luck with quality women and your advice on how to get them means about just as much.

[MrScorpio]

896. Nice little outrage two-step that you're doing there, buddy

I'm surprised that you haven't worn out your dancing shoes by now.

[MellowDem]

899. It's a mellow outrage...

:)

[Curmudgeoness]

901. Oh lordy, now MrS is a murderer. How far are you intending

on taking this outrage? Maybe if some of you men (oops, I mean people) would just pay some attention to the OP, you wouldn't be so frustrated.

[SeattleGirl]

902. They're too busy dissing him and all the women who responded

positively to his OP, rather than taking some time to read the responses from the women (with their sarcasm and snark left at the door), and maybe actually learning something.

But once again, we see that to some men, what women think and what women feel is just so much floor mat to wipe their feet on.

[Curmudgeoness]

903. Kinda frightens me to realize how many men who I thought were

progressive have a deep-seated disgust for us. I never would have believed this if I had not seen this for myself.

:scared:

[MellowDem]

907. Would you say that we have a deap-seated hatred...

for women? My deap-seated hatred for white peop.... err I mean women is just so strong!!!! Thank you Glenn Beck. You have outed me. B-)

[Curmudgeoness]

910. Did you read all the posts here? Men being so upset about

being told to respect women, etc. is not what I would have expected. But there is it.

Just sign me

Glenda Beck.

[MellowDem]

913. If you think that's what some men here are upset about...

then you aren't really listening.

[Curmudgeoness]

918. OK, I don't get it. I'm listening. Exactly what are you upset about?

Please answer without being nasty and without the word "rape".

Really, I am listening. You have my full attention.

[MellowDem]

922. The tone of the OP...

is condescending and sanctimoneous. That is what quite a few people on here have seen. It's not just me. If you don't see and disagree, so be it, but we aren't upset at the message of respecting women, but rather the poor way it was conveyed.

[Curmudgeoness]

929. I am glad that you and others are not upset with the respect

message. I did not see condescension in the OP, but I will agree to disagree on how it came across. As I woman, I was blown away by the insight in it and didn't see it conveyed poorly. I would have expected men who found this post to have nothing in it for them to just ignore it, because that is what I would have done.

Oh well, Men really are from Mars and women are from Venus. I always thought that was ridiculous until now.

[MellowDem]

905. Hey, who wouldn't respond positively to an OP...

basically telling guys not to rape women? Why, I think that guys shouldn't rape women. So I'm there with you. Rather, it's the forum it is being addressed in that makes no sense, and the tone of the OP. I do think that men in general should be taught to respect women so they never rape them. However, telling this to guys on DU seems pretty useless, and in this case, condescending. It isn't the DU guys that are the problem in such extreme cases. Perhaps if you listened to us men you would see what we are actually compalining about in this thread.

The OP is a joke in terms of "learning" anything. Every progressive guy understands those most basic of basics. That is where the freepers are at. Of course, if you think most DU guys are still at the level of not knowing what rape is then I guess we disagree.

So, for the record, we all agree with the premise of the OP, since it's such a no brainer. We disagree with the implication that we need to be told that, especially in this manner. Do you need to be told not to touch little children's private parts? I don't know, do women at DU like to touch children's privates? Are they pedophiles?

[Curmudgeoness]

908. This is not just about rape. It is about respect. Rape is just

an extreme of lack of respect. And sorry I don't understand what you are trying to get to with your posts. It seems to me from what I read here that there are more men here who do need a lecture. I don't even know why this OP got all the attention that it got if it was so obvious.

[MellowDem]

912. The implication is that DU guys don't respect women...

to the point of needing to be told not to rape them. That is insulting. I understand that there are threads on how progressive guys don't respect women still, but they usally deal with more specific, complicated issues than the OP. Things that aren't yet crystal clear to society at large. Like rape being bad, or that women are human beings. The tone was just really sanctimonius.

[Curmudgeoness]

915. No it was not sanctimounious. It was what I (and most of the women)

appreciated that MrScorpio had put into words. It was not condecsending and it was not just "rape being bad". I would think that the men would just be glad to have some info.

[MellowDem]

919. I have yet to glean any new "info" from the OP...

that I didn't already know. And some of the info in the OP is actually just the opinion of the OP and his worldview and view of women, and not one that most men share. I don't appreciate being told that "rape is bad" and other gems from the OP as if I was a caveman. Women like sex? Who would of thought?

[seabeyond]

924. well, you know

that is one of the hugest points i liked hearing. from what i hear today, it is all about the awesomeness and prowess of the male sexuality, and the female seems to be an asexual after thought that is merely around for the man to use. i think that was one of the most significant points. with the push of the evolutionary behavioral biology i see today, it is ALL about the man and i see it as becoming a huge issue with society.

[MellowDem]

927. Hey, I totally agree that women are sexual beings...

and love sex. I disagree with evolutionary behaviroal biology to the extent that many take it. The thing is, as far as I've seen, pretty much all the guys at DU understand this as well. And as for the other points, many were even more unanimously held than that. So I guess I don't understand why it was addressed to this forum. Sure, as a general topic of discussion, but I don't see guys on here disagreeing a whole lot with the basic precepts of the OP.

[seabeyond]

934. many times we have had discussions about evolutionary behavorial biology

many times. if i argue it i am then accused i am anti science and anti evolution.

a pretty good (small) group of men are very much into it. i learned about it on du a couple years ago, and have since educated myself and have watched the push in mainstream society. it is often promoted on cnn.

my husband was flabergasted when i told him about a thread about 6 months ago. he said no way. no one believes that shit. yup i say. no way he says. now he sees what i am talking about. and the effect it is having on society and our young, of both genders.

so, though you believe it is not embraced on du, you are wrong. it is a normal discussion/argument on du. and it is the same men that are clueless about the whole op. this is my point. it is not your issue, has not drawn your attention, you do not pay attention to it, so you are not informed. there are issues i dont have interest in, and i do not participate in because they dont effect my life. it doesnt mean those issues dont exist.

and if i got into a thread with one of those issues, i would listen and learn, not say it isnt here.

[SeattleGirl]

928. Exactly. Looking at some of the ways the "awesomeness and

prowess of the male sexuality" is pushed, women are really nothing more than a hole in the mattress put here for the sole purpose of satisfying a man.

Guess what guys? WE like to be satisfied too. And guess what else? There ARE men out there who are oblivious to that, or who just don't care, or who think wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am out to be enough for us.

I am not saying you are one of those; I don't know you in that manner. But I AM saying they are out there, and given the large population of DU, I'm sure that some of it's male citizens are guilty of just that.

[seabeyond]

935. it isnt even the individual sexual act. my beef now is, we have so promoted the end all be all of

male sexuality to such an extent that there is such an obsessiveness of all the time touting the penis. an ownership of all females sexuality where the female does not have ownership over her sexuality. it is much grander than if a guy doesnt do foreplay. find another guy.

but this is a cultural trend i am having issue with that will have lasting effects to our youth, and neither gender will be happy about it.

[HEyHEY]

942. Well, you're not a man, so it would not seem that way to you

However to most of us this was just insulting our intelligence, as much as I like Mr Scorpio.

Most men, especially DU type men have the same views as what was expressed cause it's pretty obvious rules for life. For instance, the other night my sweetie wasn't in the mood yet I managed not to beat and rape her when she told me she was sleepy.

As well, saying this further perpetuates the stereotype that most men need to be told this, they don't. I know women put up with alot of bullshit, but most of that is at the hands of certain men that even regular men don't like. Guess what, despite what you may think, the majority of men are actually nice guys!

[seabeyond]

963. HH, when those friends dropped their pants in front of the girl to humiliate the girl

embarass, make uncomfortable... did you tell them to knock the shit off?

that is the point.

[HEyHEY]

967. Actually, she burst out laughing

He wasn't doing it to humilate anyone but himself, he was just being a goof. ANd she knew that he was just being a goof. If I ever saw one of them making anyone uncomfortable, woman or not, yes I would says something.

Had she not laughed at the whole thing and he kept on I woul dhave said something, yes. And I have actually done so in the past when some drunk friend is being a dipshit to a woman. If fact, I think you'll find many men would and do.

[seabeyond]

976. thanks. appreciate. nt

[Curmudgeoness]

975. I always thought that a lot men were nice guys. Until I saw

all the condemnation here of simple truths. OK, I get it, you don't want to be told what you already know. But that does not take away from the truth in the OP and really should not offend you.

Also, get off of that "rape" thing. There were so many words in the OP, and that word was used once. Read the rest of the words too. And if you already know this is obvious, just let the post drop like a rock. Why even make it enough of an issue that all us gals wanted to know what it was all about.

[MrScorpio]

917. One thing I've noticed about all the negative replies...

Is the tendency to take one aspect of the OP and just blow it out of proportion.

Don't mind the overall theme... Just try to chip away at a particular part and hope that something falls off.

I have to say, that so far, it's been a great technique to temporarily hijack this particular thread.

Temporarily...

[SeattleGirl]

909. Actually, given the responses from most of the men on this thread,

I would completely disagree with you.

They are dissing us, ignoring us, telling us we were "punked", that we've been had, etc. As if we don't have the power to think for ourselves. As if we don't know what it's like to be disrespected. To be dismissed. To be treated as if we a bunch of airheads.

Once again I will suggest that you and the other men on this thread really take a look at the women's responses. Why do you think they have been so positive toward the OP? Because we are too stupid and gullible for words, or because we GET what he was saying in the OP. Really, take another look. You might learn something.

[MellowDem]

916. I understand why some women like the OP...

because they think it is still needed in society at large. I wouldn't disagree with them in some cases. And since the OP wasn't addressed to them, maybe that's how those women took it. But since the OP was addressed to the "guys" of this forum, it is going to look a little different to us. If the OP had just stated this as something that the neandrathal guys out there in the world still need to know, then it wouldn't have come across the same way. Because honestly, the OP treats the "guys" it is addressed to as simpletons and knuckle-draggers.

[MrScorpio]

920. If you would have taken a critical look at the Cartoon Thread

I'm not sure that you'd continue with this line of reasoning

[MellowDem]

925. The cartoon thread...

Almost all of the conflict on the cartoon thread revolved around whether the cartoon reflected how men really are in general or whether it came across as demonizing and attacking men. Not just a specific subset of men, but men in society in general. It wasn't about how men shouldn't respect women or should be able to say anything they want to them. So your thread is basically a non-sequiter to that thread. Your OP is responding to a strawman that never existed to begin with.

[seabeyond]

926. so, do you take the position that cartoon painted ALL men bad, and dismiss it and

the issue females face every single day for decades of their lives?

[SeattleGirl]

930. Seems to be what he's doing. "Hey, I'm not guilty of that, so

therefore, it doesn't exist, or it's at least not as big a problem as is portrayed in the 'toon, or talked about by the women on DU."

[MellowDem]

933. My own "guilt" has nothing to do with it...

it's just my opinion from my own experience and perspective. That is all it has ever been. If you disagree, fine, but don't make it about my respect for women, when the disagreement is not over that. I think that the cartoon does needlessly demonize men in order to make its point about a relevant issue. My opinion is not about my respect for women.

[SeattleGirl]

936. "from my own experience and perspective"

You just proved my point. You may not do those things, you may well treat the women in your life with the utmost respect. That doesn't mean this stuff doesn't happen, and it doesn't mean that men don't need to be reminded to treat women with respect.

[HEyHEY]

943. I've been trying to say this for days

What they do is re-direct the argument and make up bullshit about what a sexist pig you are. There's almost no use in trying to be civil about it, they are like fundamentalist christians. The moral certainty is palpable.

[MellowDem]

932. I don't dismiss the issue...

but I think the cartoon presented it in a bad way. I can think the cartoon was over-the-top without dismissing the real issue associated with it. It is possible. I don't know too many females that deal with what was presented in the cartoon every day. I think they all experience it at some point in their lives, and some more than others. Nor do I think the vast majority of guys act like the guy at the end. However, the premise isn't that I don't respect women and think guys should be able to say whatever they want to women.

The cartoon, through its style and repitition, seemed to be saying that this is what women have to deal with on a daily basis, IMHO. Some may disagree with me. But our disagreement is based off of how we interpret a cartoon, not our respect for women.

[seabeyond]

937. my 11 yr old big breasted niece thought she was a kid. she wore a two piece and with my sons

went out into the front yard to play in the sprinkles. operative word.... she thought she was a kid. i was looking out window and a truck with two men in it slows down, now putting past her, staring at her as her boobs flop while playing in sprinklers with a 10 yr old and an 8 yr old. they pull in to other driveway, reverse out and come back down the street staring at her. i am out the door heading their way and they take off.

she is in a christian school at 12 talking to her friends. the guys are all talking about the hooter chicks and the big breasts. the only reason is to humiliate, embarrass, harrass.

that same time at 12 she and a friend of hers goes out to dinner with a friend of mine. the 40 something yr old waiter fills her water. leaning into her and rubbing his crotch back and forth on her side. my friend keeps her mouth shut. she is afraid. (of what? who the fuck knows cause there is no way i would have kept my mouth shut). my niece lowers her eyes and shoulders slumped retreats in self as much as she can

three times, in a small period that i know about.

she is now 17. how much more has she experienced/ i dont know

but i have had my own experiences, and even much older, i still do today

so no, it does not behoove you to make light of it.

[SeattleGirl]

938. Women DO deal with this on a daily basis.

No, not every single day does every single woman deal with it, but if you look at the larger picture, the message is, it happens every day, and every woman has been subjected to it. And just as with racism, sexism has both blatant and subtle forms. What is depicted in the cartoon is blatant sexism (among other things), but believe me, it DOES happen. Then there are the more subtle things, like a male who is a total stranger to a female calling her "honey" or "sugar" or something. Maybe only once in a brief encounter, but to me, that implies a familiarity that the man had no right to assume.

Again, look at the bigger picture. I understand why a lot of men might have felt offended if they themselves do not treat women with disrespect. But I am willing to bet that you all know men who DO act that way. If you do, why not speak up? Why not point out their behavior to them? Pass MrScorpio's suggestions onto the ones you feel really need it.

[MrScorpio]

940. Each one, teach one nt

[liquid diamond]

955. Why do you expect regular men to call out these assholes?

Women claim to be so independent these days, so why don't you handle these jerks on your own? Actions speak louder than words. Do you really need a man to protect you?

[SeattleGirl]

956. Oy, you still don't get it.

You just don't.

[liquid diamond]

959. How profound. n/t

[seabeyond]

964. men use this for dominance and surperiority. they already think women inferior. they do not listen

to women

the point is to stop it. they wont stop with women saying anything. they will stop when their male friends quit laughing at it or validating it with their silence.

when a person does something racist or homophobic, does the person be attack make an impact, or the person of the oppressing group make the impact when they tell their peer it is bullshit and to stop.

do you speak out when a friend makes a racist comment. or do you condone racism with silence.

[Maru Kitteh]

978. "Women claim to be so independent these days" - What the everlovin' fuck does that even mean?

I really, really, want to know.

[MrScorpio]

939. But the point is, that if all good men don't correct the men that do screw up...

Then it does nothing to correct the problem.

You know how guys are, preening, high fives, bros before ho'sing. Closing ranks. Basically, sitting back on their position of male privilege, while the world revolves around them in complete cluelessness. It even happens here, where all the nice guys are.

Obviously, the women had it all wrong in the way that their own lives are being portrayed in that cartoon... Because, the male posters' perspectives were totally misrepresented, and thus the women's point of view required correction.

"That can't possibly be me!!" Never minding that it doesn't have to be you. If it's not about you, then there's absolutely NO reason why you can't freely validate the women's perspectives... Unless, such a validation creates the possibility of diminishing overall male privilege.

"There's no possible way that, we as men, can turn our backs on our bros, for the sake of just women. Because, the gender war will be lost."

Personally, I think that the gender war exists mostly because of and for the sake of complete bullshit. And we all know how much we LOVE bullshit.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/MrScorpio/106

[Matariki]

1010. Godammit, get over yourself. That cartoon was about WOMEN'S experiences

NOT about you. NOT about 'all men'. Everything isn't always about men. Women have a perspective, and if you stopped whining about yourself you might have noticed that all the women in that thread were relating to the cartoon because it resonated with their own experience.

Can't you get that? NOT ABOUT YOU.

[SeattleGirl]

1012. +1000!!

:applause:

[seabeyond]

921. let go of the dont rape. look at all the other stuff in that post. yes, on du

the very pregressive guy we are to assume knows this stuff.... does not. well, i think they are aware, maybe, and chose not because of male privilege and they dont want to own up to it, acknowledge it.

i think a lot of men may not behave like this. they dont recognize when it is happening around them. (and many men do recognize it and simply said, i hear ya). i assure you it is happening. as all the women know it. but men dont see it. i recognize why a man doesnt see it. i dont blame the man for not seeing it. but because he doesnt see it, does not mean it is not happening to us.

my husband is a really really good guy. he would never behave like this. and he was totally clueless. over the years of me making points to him, he says, one of the neatest things i have given him is an awareness of the sexism in this world. he was clueless.

did not make him a bad guy. he was a good guy. he is a better guy.

the point of this op is the fact that so many are in denial from another thread

you say it is obvious and that the men on du do not "need" a post like this, but i dont agree. and it does not mean you and so many of the other guys are not good guys

so many that are bothered by the tone listened to nothing being said because they were offended. i am sorry for that. i dont know how we can have a conversation, so there is an awareness, without offending. i does not matter how it is put out, or who puts it out. it offends.

what would happen if every man reading this cared. what would happen if it made them curious and they talked to the females in their lives and asked and discussed and continued to discuss this. i think a lot of awareness would be going on.

i hear what you are saying

i do

but i also see that so much of the op that is valuable, is simply dismissed, and that is sad.

[Curmudgeoness]

923. "simpletons and knuckle-draggers". Well, if the shoe fits.

Not saying whether it fits you or not. That is for you to check on. But it seems that men still do not understand women, and many here are not really interested in learning the truth.

[HEyHEY]

944. Yes, they are...

It's people who wish to demonize my entire gender that aren't interested in the truth, cause it doesn't suit your purpose of wanting be angry at someone.

[JVS]

945. Is this thread hitting 1,000 tonight?

[HEyHEY]

949. I'm trying to stay out of it now

[SeattleGirl]

946. I don't think you're heaing what we're saying.

The OP posts something about respecting women. The women respond positively to that OP. And what then commences is a pile on by men, either knocking the OP as "unnecessary" or wahtever, and then saying that the women who reacted positively to the OP were "duped", "punked", etc. Instead of reading what the women said, and thinking about it, we were laughed at. THAT'S what we're pissed off about.

I know that I do not lump all men into one category, nor do I demonize your gender. I happen to like men very much; it's the ones who don't treat us with respect that I have don't much care for. When some of the men on this thread have acted in a very disrespectful way toward us, well.......

For a woman to say that she has been disrespected by men doesn't mean by ALL men. And I do believe that the women on this thread are grown up enough to distinguish between those who treat us well and those who don't.

As I said in another post, if you are a man who is respectful of women, then the OP doesn't apply directly to you. If you DO know men who ARE disrespectful to women, speak up. Say something to them, like, "Dude, would you want someone treating your sister like that?"

I know that there are women out there who are not very respectful of men, or who see them as nothing more than a paycheck or as a way to get the bangles and baubles they want. I don't care for them either, because a decent person doesn't deserve to be used or disrespected. And it doesn't mean if someone else recognizes that woman as a user, they think that all women are users, any more that I (and probably the rest of the women on this thread) don't paint all men with the same brush.

Did you stop to think about why we (the women) all responded so positively to what MrScorpio said? It's not because you personally treat us badly, but because we are treated with a lack of respect on a daily basis, sometimes by men we know; sometimes (oftentimes) by men we don't know from Adam. And as I also said in another post, there DU has a lot of members. I'm willing to bet that the majority of the men are respectful of women; I'm also willing to bet there there are some among us who aren't. And there are probably also women among us who use men to get what they want, and not as a humanly valuable person in their lives.

We are saying, listen to us. Take us seriously. Take what we say seriously. Be open to what we are saying, and most of all, if you see that kind of behavior in other men, behavior you don't do yourself, say something to them. Women often do, but it would also help if the good men among us did the same.

[HEyHEY]

947. I totally understand what you're saying

And if any man denies the actual message of the cartoon, they're an idiot. I know that women responded well to what he said because the reasons were obvious. However, a lot of men here felt it was condescending and really a list of obvious things, therefore lecturing us on them is an insult to our intelligence.

that's the reason guys got mad. Treating us like a bunch of sexists right of the bat is what got them offended. I think that alot of women here are just having trouble dealing with the fact even men get offended and even women can offend men and say sexist things.

What Scorpio posted was fine, but I think men just get indignant at someone assuming they are complete morons is all.

[SeattleGirl]

948. Or maybe some men are assuming that MrScorpio was assuming.

Not trying to twist things, but I just know that from my own reactions in the past to things, I have reacted negatively and I was assuming that the person who wrote or said them to me was making assumptions about me. In truth, it was only me who was making an assumption, not the other person.

I love online communities, but there are sometimes when some things can get lost, just in the fact that the "talking" goes on on a computer.

[HEyHEY]

950. What's funny is half the arguments you see wouldn't happen in person

For instance, the complete dunce I was arguing with yesterday, that argument would have been more civil face to face.

[SeattleGirl]

952. That's quite true.

There are a lot of things that go on on line that probably wouldn't happen, or would happen in a more civil manner, in a face to face situation.

[Curmudgeoness]

970. Oh god, thank you for existing. I was beginning to think

all men were pigs. Except MrS. OK, life is back to normal, there ARE some men who get it.

[Common Sense Party]

951. They're NOT "most" of the men. There are about three of them.

Maybe four, I've lost count; it's a hugely long thread.

MOST of the men on here have said something to the effect of "Yes, that's right. Women like to be treated with respect. In fact ALL people should be treated with respect. Duh."

A small FEW have taken strong issue with the OP.

I think, personally, it comes down to male ego. Most guys don't like it when another guy tells them how they should behave as guys. We tend to think, "Who does this jerk think he is? Why does he think he knows so much? What gives him the right to tell ME how to behave? He ain't so perfect himself. What does he think he is, God's gift to women?"

And it goes downhill from there.

[HEyHEY]

953. Oh, you think you're so damn smart, don't you?

I challenge you to a head-butting fight!

[Common Sense Party]

954. Bring it on.

Wow, I had a W moment there.

:crazy:

[seabeyond]

965. the thing is, if a woman were to write it, it would be, man hater....

a women put the cartoon up and had the same guys say

but that isnt all men

well, no one said, nor thinks it is. all of us have most all, or all men in our lives that are not like this. that was not the point of toon

[HEyHEY]

968. Do me a favour

In the next month, pay objective attention to the treatment men get on this board. The differences in what they are jumped on for saying, the kind of comments women are making towards men that go seemingly unnoticed by administration, the assumptions we're all sexists. It's there and I think that it's one of the reasons these arguments are taking place. As a man, I can see this stuff, maybe as a woman you can't. Take a look though.

[seabeyond]

977. i will. but you also take note, if we discuss women, or what women do to men, or what

happens to young boys or adult males, you will see support from the women on the board, and we wont see it as an indictment against all women. we will be as harsh, if not harsher on the women, than men

but it would be interesting.

i have always been advocate for male in the area i feel they need advocacy.

if not

call me on it

[HEyHEY]

1009. deal

[MellowDem]

906. That either went way over your head...

or, I don't know. The OP is telling the guys of DU not to rape women. Some of us find that pretty stupid and insulting. Not the not raping women, but rather the implication that we need to be told not to rape women. Do you think the guys of DU need to be told not to rape women? Much less, told how "guys" feel about women by some guy who claims to represent male views? If so, you agree with the OP.

[SeattleGirl]

911. You are missng the big picture. Rape was one of the things

the OP talked about, yes, but read the OP again, and try to do it with better eyes. You might just get an idea of what he is really saying. I know the female respondents sure got it.

[MrScorpio]

914. Gee, I wonder what reaction I'd get if I told guys to turn on the lights...

So they won't stub their toes.

But it's quite obvious that some guys on DU think that they know everything about women... Even if women try to point out to them that that isn't the case.

By the way, I think that I still have quite a bit to learn about the womenfolk... And I'm always willing to listen to them when they're trying to tell me something.

[Maru Kitteh]

969. In a long laundry list of valid points, the seriously defensive have glommed onto the word "rape"

Let me explain how that reaction is perceived by vast numbers of readers, male and female.

It says that there is a strong possibility that the defensive feel that as long as they are not actually committing rape, their behavior (and similar behaviors degrading to women in others) is not really that bad.

[seabeyond]

895. discussing the gay issue yesterday with brother, i walked out at "white male with shackles on"

i was patient, arguing with all the reasons gays are privileged and treated above the rest of this

but when he said that he, a white hetero male has shackles on now.... cause of the blacks, gays and women, i had to walk.

you know, disgusted. throw up disgusted.

[MrScorpio]

897. I don't blame you one bit. nt

[MellowDem]

898. A better analogy to this thread would have been...

how you told your progressive brother that killing gays is bad, that hating black people is bad, and that he shouldn't rape women.

Or maybe if someone told you that it's not cool to sexually prey on little kids... just in case you didn't know.

As for your actual real life brother, sorry you have to deal with someone like that. I got a few of those in the family as well. Extended family, thank goodness, but family nonetheless.

[HEyHEY]

941. ding, ding, ding

[cleanhippie]

971. Aren't those good rules when dealing with ANYONE?

Seems like if I take out "women" and replace with "other people", all still applies.


Great post and great advice, but this is applicable to EVERYONE you interact with.

[MrScorpio]

973. Absolutely true

However, some people in this world believe that coming across strange women presents an opportunistic exception to the rule.

[seabeyond]

979. sure, and there is also what is called sexism and male privilege that seperates

from all of human. all we are asking is to take it to human.

[Name removed]

974. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

980. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrScorpio]

981. In case you haven't noticed, the subject of the post was your own stalking of me

And posting of old Lounge posts out of context.

Not to mention your steady refusal to admit the fact that some men can have breasts.

Read the link, everyone... It's all there!

[Maru Kitteh]

983. Just 15 more and we can kick this bad boy past the 1K mark.

[MrScorpio]

984. Epic! nt

[Maru Kitteh]

989. Indeed. What a proud parent you must be. Kind of like having a kid you always thought was bright

and then one afternoon you come home and find they've built a particle accelerator in the basement.

[Warren DeMontague]

985. Are you really surprised? It's got all the crucial ingredients.

Starting with the big one, an implied assumption that a large portion of DU is somehow clueless and/or morally deficient, and needs to be lectured and re-educated.

Works with the veganism threads, too. Every time.

[MrScorpio]

986. It doesn't hurt when a few posters exhibit the same kind of behavior that they deny ever doing

The extent of which surprised even me a bit

[Warren DeMontague]

988. I have no doubt that's in here, somewhere.

certainly now that the thread has reached browser crashing length.

[Maru Kitteh]

987. It's missing pit bulls, breast feeding and an Olive Garden *inside* a WalMart

It's also missing a contribution by RGBolen or RBTexla or whatever the hell his name is now.

[Curmudgeoness]

992. Wow, think of how much fun it would be to have introduced

all of that in here too! But are you sure there isn't a pit bull somewhere in here? I don't have it in me to look. But since a pit bull has a reputation for attacking without stop, I think we had some pit bulls.

[Maru Kitteh]

993. I'll concede to the pit bull, there's a strong possibility. Now if we can have them circumcised we

may be in real business.

[Curmudgeoness]

995. Heeheeheehee. Now you are asking for even more trouble.

If that is possible.

[Maru Kitteh]

996. I don't circumcise pit bull terriers at Wal*Mart . . . . WITH YOU. n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

997. Happy 1K post reply, Mr. Scorpio!

[Swamp Rat]

998. Congratulations MrScorpio!

This thread has been quite successful. :applause:

:kick:

[kwassa]

1000. are we batting 1000 yet?

[Maru Kitteh]

1001. yours says 1000 but the post count on the forum listing said 1003. I think grovelbot lost count.

I mean, that's what he does on the off-season, right?

[seabeyond]

1002. the point being, over a 1000 posts, and 104 recommendations. those thinking this is not a worthwhile

op and the poster did not hit it right on the mark, might want to do a little self reflecting.

and all the many men that support these thoughts and live this life and pass it forward

thank you.

[Swede]

1003. We should all try to live by the golden rule.

Wow,this thread is still chugging along.

[seabeyond]

1005. i dont want to. do unto others as would have done on to self.

some people want Sadomasochism done unto them. i don't. thanks.

so

respect works.

[Swede]

1006. "Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself"

It simply means treat people how you would like to be treated.

[seabeyond]

1007. ya. and what if someone wants to be treated with whips and chains. not me...

i dont want a thank you card. so i dont send thank you cards. people get pissed. i dont do holidays. people want things for holidays, then they get pissed. i want brutal honesty. so i give them brutal honesty, then they get pissed.

i dont want compliments. hubby loves compliments. so i give him compliments cause he wants them, not cause i do

[Swede]

1008. You are actually arguing against the gold rule?

Sheesh. Have a nice day.

[seabeyond]

1014. i am. it makes no sense to me. it is total opposite of the intent of what it is meant to be.

i am always so surprised more people dont think twice about it. i dont like being against the golden rule. i am all about nice. i want to be able to embrace the golden rule like all the rest fo the world. but once you realize how the golden rule doesnt work.... well hell, i can no longer innocently embrace the golden rule again... much to my anguish.

[SeattleGirl]

1004. Holy cow, my friend!

This thread has definitely turned into an epic! :thumbsup:

[Matariki]

1011. I was just going to post similar - is this a record at DU?

over a thousand posts?

[SeattleGirl]

1013. Nope, not the longest.

I'm not absolutely sure, but I think that this thread from the lounge is, with over 4,000 responses:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=8358611

[Curmudgeoness]

1017. But is it the longest that has anything to say? Thread that never ends

is cute, but nothing more.

[MrScorpio]

1015. When I posted the OP...

I did, of course, expect a strong reaction, but the result so far has been overwhelming. I'm not surprised, however, that so many DUers have had a lot thoughts and experiences to share, in order to make such a vibrant dialogue such as this.

This is what DU is all about, people talking to each other and helping each other see the big picture. I'm just glad to be just a small part of that bigger picture.

Brickbat's thread was the inspiration, and the rest of you made this extended discourse possible.

So, it should be me thanking you for listening to what I thought that I had to say and again all of you for responding as you did.

Thank you.

[Common Sense Party]

1018. I'm still waiting for a female DUer to talk to the "ladies"

and lay down the law on how to treat men.