There is Nothing Wrong With Taking Pleasure in the Passing of Your Persecutor

[mondo joe]

I don't know about everyone on DU. But I know there are enough people here who were the objects of Jerry Falwell's persecution.

I know he declared war against me as a gay man, and my family (both metaphoric and literal).

I know he did the same to women, to people of various religions, and more.

I take pleasure in his passing. And I don't think it even means I hate him. I don't feel hate for him - just RELIEF. Relief that someone I never did anything to can't try to punish me for existing, can't try to harm my family for his own financial benefit.

If the people who take pleasure in his passing had tortured him, had directly harmed him and caused him unnecessary suffering or death, it would be wrong. It would bring us down to his level.

But simply dying of natural causes isn't punishment or torture. It's just a part of life. So get the fuck over it.

Sorry to add yet another Falwell thread. But if someone is hurting you and they are prevented from doing so, you take joy in it. It's not hate - it's relief and gratitude. And there's not a damn dog on the planet that doesn't know that.

[atreides1]

1. Thank you

That was very well said.

[MnFats]

2. this passage came to mind, don't know exactly what book it's from...

..."The Lord loveth not the death of a sinner; but that he turn from his wicked ways and be saved."

perhaps at the last moment Falwell realized the error of his ways and repented.
But I doubt it.

[Iris]

3. Yes, it almost feels like relief more than anything.

But also, since he died so abruptly, it's almost unbelievable. It's not wonder our first reaction is almost one of giddiness. It's like seeing the Wicked Witch get knocked out by a house.

[Cerridwen]

4. "Some people bless us with their presence...

others with their absence"

That phrase from childhood keeps playing in my head.

Today, I feel "blessed".

And, I will leave it at that.

[seabeyond]

5. but then your post isnt about hate. firstly you clearly state that isnt your feeling

and seeing it not your intent, it is easily felt in your post and expression that it isnt hate. your post expresses you feeling about the man. this post isnt what some (like myself) are addressing. in all my posts you wont find warm fuzzy comments about falwell. he is what he is. he clearly put out how he feels about people. he earns what he receives. it is all him. but many of the posts are/were hatefilled. your post was not. that is not what you were about. i dont know that anyone is saying discussing the man and the feelings one has on his death is a bad thing. or we need to say something nice about the man. when someone causes so many pain, i dont see where they will come up with something nice

further, for a preacher to abuse his responsibility in the name of the lord that people look to to guide them, i think is the greatest of sins. so all the way around i dont have nice things to say.

i just dont feel your post is about hate

[mondo joe]

12. But I don't think a LOT of the response is about hate.

People are joyful that a pestilence is gone or diminished. It's not hate to feel joy about his death.

[iverglas]

6. sometimes we do agree

I remember driving down the road honking and cheering when the news of the demise of the Shah of Iran came on the radio.

I forget what I was doing when I heard that Franco had popped his clogs, but it wasn't weeping.

Sometimes it's kinda anticlimactic. They just wait too damn long to die, and spoil the fun.

When one of them makes a timelier exit, so much the better.

Mind you, it would probably be nicer if they'd live long enough to get what's coming while they're here, since they're not going to get it anywhere else. At least Pinochet got a taste.

But hell, them dying saves us all the bother, and solves the problem of their existence, and that's the main thing. Relief indeed, but also and perfectly legitimately gladness that they're just not here to do their nasty deeds any more. The world is a slightly better place, and there's nothing wrong with being glad of that.

[Tyler Durden]

7. I feel like a slave on a plantation at the death of the "Massa."

He is dead and I am joyful at the thought: one less Neoconservative to persecute us.

[jobycom]

8. As long as you feel good about what they will say about Jimmy Carter

when he dies, I guess you've got that right. But the time to condemn a person isn't on the day he dies. He's gone, he's no longer a problem, you do the world no good by doing so, and the only effect you have is to make more people suffer more.

If that's okay with you, then it is, but that's as diametrically opposed to everything I believe in, to why I'm a liberal, as Jerry Falwell himself was. The only difference is who one chooses to persecute. Falwell chose people like you and me, you choose Falwell and his friends, family, and followers.

The real opposite of Falwell isn't gay and atheist and liberal, the real opposite of Falwell is tolerance, peace, and love. No one has said you have to respect Falwell or soften your opinion of him, just that there are other days to make your opinions known, when you aren't pissing in the face of the people mourning him. Every civilized society has developed some version of the Golden Rule. You don't just throw it out because you don't like the people you are having to be nicer to.

[Horse with no Name]

10. Point of order jobycom

Jimmy Carter, nor anyone on this board, has whipped the "Brotherhood of Bubbas" into a frenzy and made them think it was okay to hate women, hate gays, bomb abortion clinics, etc.
There is a huge difference when the ONLY thing you have to judge ANYONE on is the extent of hatred they had for your mere existence.
Not sure how you can justify that one.

[mondo joe]

11. What did Jimmy Carter do to hurt anyone? Please be specific. (Also, I don't give a fuck

what anyone feels when Jimmy Carter dies, but I'd still like to know what you think he did to hurt anyone.)

[jobycom]

16. Nothing. But others do.

Really, it's not that difficult a point to understand. You have to be trying very hard not to get it. Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you attack dead people while their bodies are still cooling, you hurt people, while accomplishing nothing positive except stroking your own ego. Those people will be less likely to respect you, less likely to respect your grieving period, and most of all, less likely to change. You escalate the hate. That's the problem, not the solution.

[mondo joe]

19. I don't really give a fuck what anyone says about me on my death - it can't hurt me in the least.

And my joy in Falwell's death hurts no one.

[iverglas]

20. I'm sorry, but: sez you

If you attack dead people while their bodies are still cooling, you hurt people, while accomplishing nothing positive except stroking your own ego.

You have chosen to disregard pretty much everything I said, and there isn't really much I can do about that. But I'm happy to repeat it, in case you actually missed it.

When a person who was hugely evil in public dies, there will be many people who share his devotion to evil who will praise him in public.

If no one speaks up to talk about the evilness of the public person, the public discourse will be one-sided -- not about somebody's grampa or fishing buddy, but about somebody who chose to attempt to influence public policy, and who did influence public events, in very bad ways. Good people have a duty to ensure that the public discourse is not inhabited only by voices praising evil.

That has precisely bugger all to do with my ego or anyone else's. It has to do with the duty of good people to speak up against evil.

Those people will be less likely to respect you, less likely to respect your grieving period, ...

And just to show that it is not about me: I really don't give a shit. If I am grieving a public person, they are as entitled to speak up about that person as I am.

... and most of all, less likely to change.

Oh, right. Like they'd be likely to change if we left them all to pollute the public discourse with their hatred and praise of hatred and just sat still and shut up.

You escalate the hate.

Well, there we will disagree. The hate will escalate no matter what I say. I'm certainly not going to agree with the platitude that the only way to combat ugly speech is nice speech (you know, Imus and Opie and Anthony and how nothing should ever be suppressed), but I'm definitely not going to say that hate is combatted by keeping one's mouth shut.

If you or anyone wants to frame post mortem praise of Jerry Falwell as "grieving", feel free. I won't go along with it. I'll just call it hate, just the same as it was before he died. Because praising someone who preaches hate is just hate, whether the person is alive or dead. And I never feel obliged to sit in respectful silence when I hear it.


edit: I realized that I clicked on the wrong link and this was not your reply to me. But I guess what I said pretty much applies to your reply to me. Calling the messenger names, the univeral remedy when one doesn't like the message, I guess.

[TankLV]

21. You don't fucking get it...

at all...

[iverglas]

13. that intellectual dishonesty stuff

The only difference is who one chooses to persecute. Falwell chose people like you and me, you choose Falwell and his friends, family, and followers.

Those sentences may have subjects and predicates and all the rest, but they actually make no sense at all.

To suggest that what Falwell and his fellow travellers did/do to other human beings is in any way comparable to what people who despised Falwell are, supposedly, doing to his friends, family and followers is just plain nasty, as well as being intellectually dishonest.

No one is doing anything to Falwell's friends, family and followers in this context. Period.

If those people are caused grief by anything said about Falwell, that's what we ordinarily call tough. No one is calling for those people to be denied any fundamental rights. No one is inciting hatred against them and causing them to fear for their safety.

Falwell actively worked to ensure that terrible things were done to some people. By doing this, he also created a climate in which other people were considerably more likely to actually do terrible things to those people.

If you can think of any terrible things that anyone expressing pleasure in Falwell's death is thereby working to have done to anyone, I'd like to hear. If you think that expressing pleasure in Falwell's death is likely to lead to anyone doing terrible things to someone else, I'd like to hear that too.

Falwell was not merely a private person; he was a public person. That was his own choice. His death is not a private matter, it is a public matter. That too was his own choice. He is the one responsible for any pain his friends, family and followers may feel at public reaction to his death. The public is entitled to react publicly to his death in the same way as they were entitled to react publicly to anything he said or did when he was alive.

His friends and family can go ahead and react as they wish to his death as a private person. Their conception of him has nothing to do with the public persona he created for himself, and it is the death of that persona to which the public is entitled to react, and frankly, has a duty to react to honestly. I didn't know the man as a private person, I don't know his family and friends, so it is entirely appropriate for me to simply say nothing about him ceasing to exist as a private person.

As far as his followers go, they knew him as a public person, and their reaction to his death as such is of no concern to me. It is no more legitimate than my own.

But given that they will be reacting, loudly and long, I will say that I in fact have a duty to react as well, because otherwise the public discourse will be polluted by praise for hatefulness.

I might agree that if they will shut the fuck up, so will I.

[jobycom]

17. The eternal cry of bullies everywhere.

:shrug:

[TankLV]

22. Bullshit - you're not listening to what is being said - as usual...

You don't get it...

[Vidar]

9. I wholeheartedly agree.

[jgraz]

14. A lot of straight white men are happy he's dead, too

This piece of dogshit was stuck to everybody's shoe.

[mondo joe]

15. Indeed. I didn't mean to exclude the many people who were not directly targeted by Falwell

but opposed him just the same.

[Beelzebud]

18. As a free individual, I'll make up my own mind on how to behave. Fuck Falwell.

And fuck anyone that tells me the "correct" way to speak of this bastard's life and death.