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Noam Chomsky: Liberal Sage

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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 01:24 PM
Original message
Noam Chomsky: Liberal Sage

There were corporations as far back as the 18th century, and beyond. In the United States, corporations were public bodies. Basically, they were associations. A bunch of people could get together and say we want to build a bridge over this river, and could get a state charter which allowed them to do that, precisely that and nothing more. The corporation had no rights of individual persons. The model for the corporation back at the time of the framing of the Constitution was a municipality. Through the 19th century, that began to change.

It's important to remember that the constitutional system was not designed in the first place to defend the rights of people. Rather, the rights of people had to be balanced, as Madison put it, against what he called 'the rights of property'. Well of course, property has no rights: my pen has no rights. Maybe I have a right to it, but the pen has no rights. So, this is just a code phrase for the rights of people with property. The constitutional system was founded on the principle that the rights of people with property have to be privileged; they have rights because they're people, but they also have especial rights because they have property. As Madison put it in the constitutional debates, the goal of government must be "to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority". That's the way the system was set up.

In the United States, around the turn of the century, through radical judicial activism, the courts changed crucially the concept of the corporation. They simply redefined them so as to grant not only privileges to property owners, but also to what legal historians call 'collectivist legal entities'. Corporations, in other words, were granted early in this century the rights of persons, in fact, immortal persons, and persons of immense power. And they were freed from the need to restrict themselves to the grants of state charters.

That's a very big change. It's essentially establishing major private tyrannies, which are furthermore unaccountable, because they're protected by First Amendment rights, freedom from search and seizure and so on, so you can't figure out what they're doing.

After the Second World War, it was well understood in the business world that they were going to have to have state coordination, subsidy, and a kind of socialization of costs and risks. The only question was how to do that. The method that was hit upon pretty quickly was the 'Pentagon system' (including the DOE, AEC, NASA). These publicly-subsidized systems have been the core of the dynamic sectors of the American economy ever since - (much the same is true of biotechnology, pharmaceuticals, etc., relying on different public sources).

....

It's a form of tyranny. But, that's the whole point of corporatization - to try to remove the public from making decisions over their own fate, to limit the public arena, to control opinion, to make sure that the fundamental decisions that determine how the world is going to be run - which includes production, commerce, distribution, thought, social policy, foreign policy, everything - are not in the hands of the public, but rather in the hands of highly concentrated private power. In effect, tyranny unaccountable to the public.

....

(The media) are just huge corporations that sell audiences to advertisers in other businesses.

....

Ultimately it's a question of whether democracy is going to be allowed to exist, and to what extent. And it's entirely natural that the business world, along with the state, which they largely dominate, would want to limit democracy. It threatens them. It always has been threatening. That's why we have a huge public relations industry dedicated to, as they put it, controlling the public mind..




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Electric Monk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Link or attribution?
Sure reads like Chomsky, though.

"It's a form of tyranny. But, that's the whole point"
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. .........
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 01:35 PM
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3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. And its brainwashed corporatists seem to hate him......
nt


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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. And no wonder so many corporatist sell-outs hate him..
Not to mention that since they lack the intellectual wherewithal to argue with Chomsky's analysis they have to limit themselves to making snide remarks.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Or maybe it's because "DU's reactionary screamers" are bright enough to understand that when
Edited on Mon Aug-16-10 01:48 PM by Greyhound
one of the greatest living intellects on the planet says something is so, perhaps he might understand a thing or two that has escaped your comprehension.

Oh, and I think any reasonable person might predict that a linguist might be a bit verbose.


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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Maybe you should try reading him before dismissing him.
On the other hand it is a lot easier to dismiss him if you remain in total ignorance.
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. delete- double post
Edited on Mon Aug-16-10 01:50 PM by dorkulon
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. He does have his moments.

I don't see any major problems with this particular piece. But then there was that whole notion of his that even if 9/11 was an inside job we should let the perpetrators go free rather than expose and prosecute them. I never did understand that fancy piece of inside-out rationalization, but many of his followers seemed to accept it. The whole subject should be taken "off the table."
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. When exactly did he say that?
Do you have a link?
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-10 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. A bunch of the left gatekeepers all share this same sentiment.
"That's an internet theory and it's hopelessly implausible. Hopelessly implausible. So hopelessly implausible I don't see any point in talking about it." - Chomsky


They all share a common illogical position on this subject. On the one hand they think it is super-important to get into the minds and motivations of the perpetrators of 9/11 (for example, all of the books that they have written telling the tale of the cave-dwelling religious fanatics who have been oppressed by the American machine and are now striking back against the oppressors) and yet they have no concern at all for finding out who actually planned and executed the mission.

Anyone with half a brain should question what the hell are they up to? These two positions are at odds with each other. Maybe they can sell more books if they take certain views. Who knows?

To see what I'm getting at, try contrasting this article:

http://www.infowars.com/howard-zinn-%E2%80%9Ci-don%E2%80%99t-care%E2%80%9D-if-911-was-an-inside-job/

with this article:

http://www.counterpunch.org/chomskyintv.html

I know these two articles are remote in time so the comparison may not be a fair one for that reason, but I've been watching this discussion for a long time. Chomsky's views are consistent over time. He has already picked a villain that supports his world view so he doesn't care if he might be wrong and we allow the real villains to get away with their crimes. There are many discussions where he expresses this view, going back a half a dozen years. It is a well-documented part of his rhetoric.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. You've never really read anything he's writen have you?
Come on, tell the truth.
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uncommon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. He is quite brilliant --
certainly he has his own opinions and agenda, but his books and lectures are quite fascinating and definitely worthy of consideration.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. sage goes in all fields
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. Repetez en anglais, s'il vous plait?
:shrug:

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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. The elite hate his analysis, but are never able to refute them
They are simply reduced to school yard tactics, like name calling... Which seem to be very effective unfortunately amongst their ilk.
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
14. Here's my all-time favorite Chomsky quote:
CHOMSKY: "Well, let me give an example. When I'm driving, I sometimes turn on the radio and I find very often that what I'm listening to is a discussion of sports. These are telephone conversations. People call in and have long and intricate discussions, and it's plain that quite a high degree of thought and analysis is going into that. People know a tremendous amount. They knoall sorts of complicated details and enter into far-reaching discussion about whether the coach made the right decision yesterday and so on. These are ordinary people, not professionals, who are applying their intelligence and analytic skills in these areas and accumulating quite a lot of knowledge and, for all I know, understanding. On the other hand, when I hear people talk about, say, international affairs or domestic problems, it's at a level of superficiality that's beyond belief."

I don't share Chomsky's total lack of interest in the JFK assassination. And unlike Chomsky, I have some confidence in Obaama.
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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
15. I remember that Jefferson was really upset with the Constitution
Edited on Mon Aug-16-10 02:50 PM by RandomThoughts
Jefferson was in France when it was written I heard. And insisted the adding of the Bill of Rights, since the Constitution had ignored much of those issues.

Although I think it says, life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, not property.

Also "We the people in order to form a more perfect union" is also a great phrase, both stating that society is not yet perfect, and only looking to try to make things more perfect. Although it also has the irony of using perfect, I think that could have been a jab at those that claim that the earth is already perfect. (same concept in other post about some thinking the earth is both heaven and hell and suppose to be that way.)

And also the concept that it is the people that should decide things, not some section of people by class, status, or anything else that determines some group a person is in.

As far as majority minority, the majority is defended by elections, the minority by judges. A check and balance. And actually like the senate, a way to slow changes in society to mitigate social fads.


It's a form of tyranny. But, that's the whole point of corporatization - to try to remove the public from making decisions over their own fate, to limit the public arena, to control opinion, to make sure that the fundamental decisions that determine how the world is going to be run


I don't think that is the intent of the Constitution.

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BadGimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
16. amen
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