U.S. Marines headed for Afghanistan baptized in ocean off Camp Pendleton!!!???

[Better Believe It]

Marines headed for Afghanistan baptized in ocean off Camp Pendleton
August 4, 2010

A group of Marines headed for Afghanistan underwent baptism in the ocean off Camp Pendleton, an area normally used for amphibious assault training.
The 29 Marines, all volunteers, are reservists assigned to the Ohio-based 3rd Battalion, 25th Regiment. The baptisms, done Sunday morning by the battalion chaplain, are part of Operation Sword of the Spirit, a program meant to prepare the battalion for duty in the Taliban stronghold of Helmand province.

The baptism service was attended by Lt. Col. Lawrence Kaifesh, the battalion commander, who called each of the 29 Marines forward for the symbolic immersion at Gold Beach.

"The spiritual and religious foundation that we're able to develop here allows us to perform our job the way we need to in a very challenging environment," Kaifesh said.

The baptisms were performed by Navy Chaplain Lt. William Hlavin and Religious Program Specialist 3rd Class Eric Dickerson.

"I believe and trust that God will take me and my fellow Marines back home safely," Lance Cpl. Yeke Sumo said in a statement released by the Marine Corps.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0133f2da5ab5970b-800wi
Chaplain Lt. William Hlavin and Religious Program Specialist 3rd Class Eric Dickerson baptize a Marine. Credit: U.S. Marine Corps

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/08/marines-headed-for-afghanistan-undergo-christian-baptism-in-ocean-off-camp-pendletonwaterare-.html

What the hell is going on? Since when are U.S. Marines baptized by Christian fundies before being shipped overseas? I guess we no longer have a seperation of the military government apparatus from religion. BBI

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. Unless things have changed since I was in, I'll bet a helluva lot more of them are being baptized

in the EM club and the local bars.

[Recursion]

44. There's a great strip club in Oceanside

Lots of "baptisms" happen there.

[saigon68]

78. I recall that in Angeles City in the P.I . in 1966

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

85. Izizacki-cho in Yokohama for me. '62-'63..

[MrScorpio]

130. There were quite a few more baptisms in Angeles City P.I. in 1987

Keeping the tradition alive

[SunsetDreams]

2. Do you think that it was a requirement?

[Better Believe It]

7. It is part of an official Marine military operation called "Operation Sword of the Spirit"

That's what the Marine Corps calls it, not me!

And the Marine Corps proudly released a photo!

Wonderful.

[SunsetDreams]

9. I'm not questioning the name of the program

[Better Believe It]

3. With the Christian God on their side! Fighting those Muslim terriorists!

[saigon68]

80. A little song to Send them OFF

ONWARD, CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS


Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see His banners go!

Refrain

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.

At the sign of triumph Satan’s host doth flee;
On then, Christian soldiers, on to victory!
Hell’s foundations quiver at the shout of praise;
Brothers lift your voices, loud your anthems raise.

Refrain

Like a mighty army moves the church of God;
Brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod.
We are not divided, all one body we,
One in hope and doctrine, one in charity.

Refrain

What the saints established that I hold for true.
What the saints believed, that I believe too.
Long as earth endure th, men the faith will hold,
Kingdoms, nations, empires, in destruction rolled.

Refrain

Crowns and thrones may perish, kingdoms rise and wane,
But the church of Jesus constant will remain.
Gates of hell can never against that church prevail;
We have Christ’s own promise, and that cannot fail.

Refrain

Onward then, ye people, join our happy throng,
Blend with ours your voices in the triumph song.
Glory, laud and honor unto Christ the King,
This through countless ages men and angels sing.

Refrain

[jmowreader]

108. That was one of the best scenes in MASH (the movie)

You remember, possibly, when Hawkeye and Duke decided to fuck with Frank's head, so they got drunk off their asses and led the entire camp in marching around the Swamp singing "Onward Christian Soldiers."

That wasn't the real joy...that came when Father Mulcahy thought they'd actually found the Lord!

[saigon68]

137. Great Movie --lousy TV show

[pinboy3niner]

147. Lousy? It was a CLASSIC!

I could search to find the number of Emmys it won, but but I doubt you're unaware of that.

I still remember powerful episodes like the one with Hawkeye trapped with others in a bus in enemy territory, and the Korean mother trying to quiet her baby.

Not all episodes were as powerful, but many were, and it was a great series. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. :)

[qb]

4. I would hope none of the marines were coerced into this religious exercise.

The U.S. armed forces have always had chaplains to serve service members religious needs, but a spectacle like this is unusual.

[beam me up scottie]

30. Marines are coerced into all kinds of things, what do you think they do to the ones who complain?

A sickening spectacle, yes, but not unusual.

[frebrd]

5. Absofuckinglutely nauseating........

:puke:

[gratuitous]

6. SOP for crusaders off to battle

Whether it was to the Holy Land or against the neighboring principality, the ritual of purification and cleansing for one's soul should the worst happen has been used for centuries by crusaders to ensure safe and speedy passage to the best the next life has to offer. Naturally, being all post-modern and stuff, our Marine friends would doubtless characterize it differently, but it's basically the same thing.

[The Straight Story]

8. What's next, Muslim soldiers with prayer rugs? Gotta watch out for them christian folk

BTW baptism is a choice adults make all by themselves. It does not make them a fundie.

[Better Believe It]

15. Don't have a problem with baptisms. I Have a problem with the Marine Corps organizing them.

[SunsetDreams]

17. Why if it's voluntary?

All branches have a long history of having chaplains available to service members. If they choose to be baptized, it should be their business.

[Better Believe It]

19. This was an official government military operation.

Not just making preachers available to service members.

[SunsetDreams]

21. I don't agree

It is a service available to Military.

[SoxFan]

93. No, it wasn't

It was a voluntary affair. By the looks of it, there were about 970 Marines in that battalion who chose not to attend the baptism service.

If a Marine who belongs to a denomination that practices adult baptism wants to be baptized as a means of spiritual sustenance before deploying, that's his or her business, and that' what a (presumaly Baptist) chaplain is there for.

Spend some time around service members before you blow a gasket over something like this.

[indepat]

20. As long as it is completely voluntary with no concern or fear of reprisal in any form? I find that

hard to comprehend. :P

[Better Believe It]

23. Well, the Marine Corps can't force Marines to be baptised .... yet.

But, the Christian fundies can and will put the heat on Marines who resist.

Don't open the door to them.

The government even assigned Marine Corps p.r. people to photograph and publicize the Marine Corps sponsored Christian event!

That's going way too far.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Just like they did in WW II

we got oodles of photos of Chaplains doing their job across that war.

And like they did in Nam too, WW I... and of course we actually have a few rare ones from the war with Spain and in the Philippines.

They photograph a lot of this, and have since the camera became that widely available. Hell, they have also FILMED it too.

This is not something that should concern people. Now if you are thinking AF academy where there have been clear violations... that is another story.

[JI7]

141. you sound like the idiots going on about the "9/11 mosque"

[Obamanaut]

71. That is what chaplains do. Among other things. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

88. Exactly! nt

[Cleita]

10. The fundies have been infesting the military for some time

now. It seems they have taken over the Air Force Academy as well.

[Dogtown]

26. They're infesting *much* closer to home, too.

[MilesColtrane]

31. In this case at least, the battalion chaplain is an Evangelical Lutheran.

The ELCA is comparatively liberal, and far from fundamentalist.

Now the battalion commander, on the other hand...?

[happy_liberal]

11. "THOU SHALL NOT KILL"

Sound familiar you nutjobs?

[louis-t]

12. OK, men, now go kill fer Jesus!

[Better Believe It]

13. PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE AMMUNITION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dryBNYaj1sA&feature=player_embedded

[NeedleCast]

14. As long as it was voluntary, I don't have an issue with it

People are entitled to their belief in invisible creatures.

[Better Believe It]

16. But should the government be organizing such events as part of a military operation?

[NeedleCast]

37. Why not?

The military (as an extension of the government) runs a wide range of chaplain services for the men and women of the armed forces. There's nothing to prevent individual commanders from organizing religious events as long as they are not forcing it on anyone. During my five years in the military there was only one incident where I felt pressured into partaking in a (non-denominational) religious event. That was in basic training and my drill sgt very quickly put the hammer down on the persons doing the pressuring.

I'm not saying there haven't been things that are more alarming when talking about the military and it's ties to christiantiy, but again, as long as this event was voluntary and no undue pressure was put on troops to participate, I have no issue with it.

[grantcart]

68. The government isn't organizing anything

Chaplains are made available in comabt units so that soldiers can receive religious training and instruction.


Marines chose to be involved in whatever religious activities they want.



Requirements for a Chaplain are particularly inconsistent with fundamentalism:


1) They have to have a BA and an advanced degree in theology.

2) Must be ordained

3) Sensitive to Religious Pluralism - something that is by definition not consistent with fundamentalism.

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/requirements.jsp


So now we evolve from a community that fights to support people exercising to their constitutional rights to a site that ridicules and slurs people that we don't agree with, even though there is no evidence that the people in a photograph actually have the ideology that we say they do. Let the trivialization of DU continue.

[raouldukelives]

18. Some of those who run shooting galleries

Are the same that baptize soldiers.

[quiet.american]

22. Look, this reads as freedom of religious practice to me.

It's unclear whether all Marines are forced to do this, but it doesn't seem that way. It seems to be a private choice. And there's not much in the article to point to the Chaplain and the Marine assisting him as being "fundies."

If this helps these Marines feel grounded and centered before going into an active conflict - I don't have a problem with it. If I were going into battle, I wouldn't mind the chance to get my spirituality on.

[Better Believe It]

24. It looks like a staged government event to me!

It certainly wasn't a little private religious ceremony not organized by the government.

[quiet.american]

122. I don't know if you're former military, but I am, and that's not what it looks like to me.

Edited to add: In fact it looks to me more like a shameless invasion of privacy + exploitation by the far left - yes, that's right, the far left - that's an effort to find something "there" that's not there.

[Dogtown]

25. The Apologists

are all over this thread.

:patriot:O8)

[SunsetDreams]

27. That's right I support the United States Constitution.

[Dogtown]

107. What an interesting

sig line.

[NeedleCast]

39. Apologist for what?

What appears to be a completely legal religious ceremony?

[Dogtown]

106. Don't waste your time.

I certainly don't intend to.

[beam me up scottie]

28. "Kill a Muslim for Christ"

Not as catchy as "Kill a Commie for Christ" but it'll do.

In boot camp I was told that my duty as a Marine was to God, Country and Corps, I was not allowed to designate my religion as "atheist" or "none" on my dog tags and they tried to force me to go to church on Sunday.

I'll wager most Marines will tell you it's business as usual.

[SunsetDreams]

34. Dear Fellow "Devil Dog",

When I was at boot camp at Parris Island. We had free time on Sundays, we had the choice of whether we wanted to attend church services or not.

[beam me up scottie]

41. My friend's father had to get the ACLU involved before they stopped forcing us to go to church.

After that was settled, those of us who stayed behind had to do laundry for everyone in the platoon.

I'm glad your experience was so positive.

[SunsetDreams]

47. I can't imagine,

I'm glad the ACLU got involved in that, because that's not right.
They made you do laundry? Didn't you have any free time? I always used mine for writing letters, and taking an extra long shower, lol

[beam me up scottie]

50. No free time for non-church goers, they also made us clean everyone's M-16's.

Also, our barracks were scheduled to be torn down within the year (due to asbestos), so when the hot water heaters broke down they didn't bother fixing them.

Yep, cold showers for 7 weeks, during December, January and February.

Good times.

:hi: fellow FM!

[NeedleCast]

55. Had some pressure in Basic (Army) myself

That's really the only time.

Same thing though...Sunday mornings you could either go to church or clean the barracks. However, the 10% of us who didn't go to church didn't really see cleaning as punishment because we were going to have to clean it anyway. The drills mostly left us alone on Sunday morning so we cleaned, polished (our) boots, wrote letters, etc.

About three weeks after basic got started a group of about 15 soldiers started putting pressure on the people not going to church services. Over about a two week period, that pressure started to ramp up until another troop in my platoon told our drill about it. No pressure after that.

[beam me up scottie]

67. The Army is much more civilized.

Seriously.

The guys in my brother's platoon were issued one sucker punch in the gut every morning during inspection.

[SunsetDreams]

57. That's just ludicrous,

I am so glad they changed that practice. Damn, that must have been cold. Ours weren't exactly a steaming sauna through the week, with that many taking showers on the double, and having to get out yesterday. The DI's were horrible! It's no wonder we ran around smelling like a pig sty LOL That's why I enjoyed my Sunday shower soooo much :)
:hi: FM! It's always nice to run into a fellow Devil Dog!

[beam me up scottie]

65. Speaking of ludicrous, did they make you wear lipstick, too?

When I was in The Suck we had to wear bright red lipstick - yes, they issued it along with our combat boots.

True story: Our chow hall flooded so we had to get up an hour earlier and march across the island to another. We were given exactly five minutes to get dressed and have our shit squared away before leaving. We had no time to shower in the morning anymore (not that we cared after the hot water ran out) nor comb our hair or even piss before formation.

While we were standing in line at the chow hall the DI's would inspect us (iow find more reasons to abuse us) and you would get screamed at if you were sans lipstick so we had to put it on without them seeing us.

Picture this: dozens of drowsy recruits standing in line, puffy eyes, hair sticking out everywhere and scarlet lipstick smeared all over our faces. We couldn't look at each other without busting a gut, the DI's even lost it a few times.

[SunsetDreams]

72. Vivid picture LOL

That is too damn funny!! I can't stop laughing! That must have been quite a site, for sure.

:rofl:

We were not made to wear any until 2nd phase, after we had our "make-up" class. They tried to show us the proper way for wearing makeup in the military. It was too damn funny, and yes the bright red lipstick. OMG, to this day I won't wear it. I go more maroons and browns. I despise bright red lip stick with a passion!

[joe black]

128. You had hair to comb.

In boot camp, really.

[beam me up scottie]

129. Yeah, really. Long and blond and curly.

Red lipstick was all wrong for me.

[Recursion]

54. We couldn't shower during square-away time

But our heavy hat said that was just his own hang-up because he hated how mildewy the showers got.

[SunsetDreams]

61. I don't think it was mildew

I think it was sheer funk lol

[crazyjoe]

91. I have been in the military, and you are so full of crap I don't

know where to begin.

[beam me up scottie]

118. Like you would know, Francis.

Why don't you begin by telling us all about your experience as a female recruit on Parris Island?



You're making friends all over DU, aint'cha? :rofl:

[Bigmack]

104. Us Hollywood Marines...

were told to pick a service of our choice... or stay around the company area and field day.

If you were careful, you could sleep during the services.

After boot camp, in the FMF, and in Vietnam, religion just wasn't all that popular.

Chaplains are officers.

[Recursion]

46. When did you do boot?

After the first Sunday church call was entirely optional for us. And since I was the scribe I didn't have time to do it anyways.

[SunsetDreams]

49. damn, you had scribe?

I got stuck with chow hall recruit LOL

[Recursion]

53. Ha. Actually I started out as Scuzz Rag Recruit

Then after they fired the scribe the SDI picked me for it, right before we went to the rifle range.

[SunsetDreams]

63. You stepped way up there

Did you ever get hassled about brown nosing the DI's?
We hassled our scribe alot! lol

[Recursion]

64. I was 3 years older and 20 pounds heavier than the rest of the platoon

I pretty much didn't take guff.

And actually scuzz rag recruit is probably the best physical job: you get to go outside and beat the rags clean, and be alone and in silence for 10 minutes every night.

[SunsetDreams]

66. that's true,

if you think of the job in that way. We sure know, you need someway to look at something positive in boot camp. If there is such a thing LOL I'll never forget the sand fleas, I didn't know them suckers could fly. They would be biting you in the face, while you were standing at attention, and you know damn well, you couldn't slap at them. That sucked!

[beam me up scottie]

69. Hey, the sand fleas have to eat too. Damned things would crawl right into your eyes, ears and nose

I'm getting hives just remembering it.

[SunsetDreams]

74. No kidding

Them things were relentless! Speaking of sand, did you ever have to do punishment exercizes in the "Sand Pit"?
Holy smokes, talk about eating sand. As hard as you had to go, naturally your mouth would be hanging open. Ewww just thinking about the sand gritting between my teeth makes me want to puke!

[beam me up scottie]

76. Oh boy did I ever.

I got into trouble all the time. My last name is very difficult to pronounce so the DI would stomp out of the hut and scream:
"PRIVATE...PRIVATE...PRIVATE YOU-KNOW-WHO-THE-HELL-YOU-ARE, GET UP HERE!!!"

[SunsetDreams]

92. LOL

Our DI's threw the whole platoon in the Sand Pit. If one got in trouble, we all got in trouble.

[beam me up scottie]

52. Mid '80's, brother had same experience but he complied-said he caught up on his sleep :)

They do a lot of stuff in boot camp that would curl civvies' hair.

[saigon68]

82. Its actually Kill a Raghead

Nothing about Christ

In my war it was "kill a commie for mommy"

[beam me up scottie]

119. Subtle.

A friend of ours has a Vietnam era pin with the KACFC motto.

[tjwash]

29. There are no atheists in foxholes

True saying.

[MineralMan]

32. Utter bullshit!

Truer saying.

My father, who has been an atheist all his life since age 16, flew B-17s in WWII. He was the lead pilot, when his B-17 was badly damaged by a flak barrage. Did he suddenly convert and start praying? Of course not. He quickly evaluated the situation, shut down the two ruined engines, and returned the B-17 and its crew to their base with only minor injuries. The USAAF gave him a nice medal for it.

Prayer would have been useless. Quick thinking by a rational man saved an aircrew and a plane. He was 21 years old at the time.

It may not have been a foxhole, exactly, but there was an atheist flying that plane.

[pinboy3niner]

111. +1

When I was evac'd to an Army hospital in the States after being WIA in VN, my ward's head nurse was filling out my bed card and asked me what she should enter for "religion." I told her to put down "None." "You mean, 'Decline to state'?" she asked. "No," I told her. "Just put 'None.'"

A little while later, the chaplain dropped by and looked at my bed card. He had no reaction. My impression at the time was that he'd seen the same religion entry enough that it didn't faze him...

[MineralMan]

120. Thanks for your service. I was in the USAF from 65-69, but

was always stationed far away from VN.

[pinboy3niner]

121. Thanks for your service, too, MineralMan

You didn't miss anything. :)

IIRC, only about a third of VN-era troops served in-country, and of those there were about 11 "support" troops for every "combat" troop. (And I very purposely put those terms in quotes because they can be very misleading, though they are official designations.)

I appreciate your father's story. I was 20 when I was in combat and soon turned 21, leading an Infantry platoon in the 101st Abn. Div. One time when I really appreciated the chaplain was when he would chopper out to us in the jungle to hold a memorial service--complete with fixed-bayonet rifles, helmets and boots--for recent KIA's. We used to say, "It don't mean nothin'," but there were some things that DID mean something--even if there was a chaplain involved.

:patriot:

[unhappycamper]

139. 'don't mean nothin'

Flashback.

[beam me up scottie]

36. You're reading the post of one right now.

My brother was another.

Thanks for telling me what I believe and/or don't.

[NeedleCast]

40. No it's not, I was one

One the few occasions that we were in direct fire engagements with the Taliban I put a lot more faith in the local CAP strike aircraft, cluster munitions, arty support and a few rounds from a Herc than I did in any invisible sky-daddies.

[SunsetDreams]

42. That saying is definitely not true

[beam me up scottie]

58. It's also extremely offensive but we see it on DU all the time.

It's not even worth getting pissed off about anymore, pick your battles and all that.

[Xithras]

33. People really have a problem with this?

My grandfather was a Catholic chaplain in WW2 and performed hundreds of baptisms, many on men as they lay dying (but always at their request). The military has always had chaplains who act as religious leaders to the troops, and those leaders have always performed all of the roles of a traditional minister/priest/rabbi/whatever. Baptisms, confessions, last rites...you name it, they do it. They even do weddings.

These people were all volunteers who wanted to be baptized by a chaplain before being sent off to war. What, exactly, is the problem with that?

[WolverineDG]

43. If it's Christianity, yes; all other religions are a-okay nt

[kctim]

45. "What, exactly, is the problem with that?"

It doesn't fit the "fundies are trying to rule us against our will," fairytale?

[Xithras]

59. I don't consider that a fairytale, but...

...I do think, in this instance, that people are kneejerking over a huge nonstory. "Chaplain baptizes soldier" is a headline that could be repeated a dozen times a week across the country. It's not new, not inappropriate, and not really all that interesting.

I am not a religious person, but I grew up in a religious household and understand how it brings many people comfort. While I may not be a religious person, I'm not going to step on the toes of other people wanting to practice their faiths however they see fit. If baptizing these soldiers before they are sent off to a war where they may be killed can bring them some small measure of comfort, then I have no problem with it. Bringing comfort is a chaplains first, and most important, job duty.

My grandfather marched across Europe in WW2 and was in the middle of some of the heaviest fighting in France. He did it while carrying no weapon, and for the sole purpose of comforting our soldiers, the injured, and the dying. I've even told the story here before about how he pissed off a bunch of his guys when he sat down with a mortally wounded German Catholic, took his final confession, and prayed the Rosary with him as he died. My grandfather didn't care that he was German...he just saw a scared and dying human being and couldn't walk away. To me, military chaplains are one of the few shining examples of humanity in a warzone, and I hate to see their existence slammed in a discussion like this.

[SoxFan]

56. Reflexive anti-religious bigotry

The dimestore radicals think that badmouthing religion increases their radical chic quotient.

[JerseygirlCT]

90. Well, I'm not anti-Christian, being one myself

But I've got a problem with this, for sure.

Here's the crux of it:

"...Operation Sword of the Spirit, a program meant to prepare the battalion for duty in the Taliban stronghold of Helmand province."

Marine program, connecting baptism to preparation for warfare in a Muslim country.

There's nothing stopping any of these marines from being baptised at the local church of their choosing. I object to it being done as part of an official program, and as if being Christian is necessary for duty in a Muslim country. I also wonder, as this is an official program (name and everything), just what sort of pressure was brought to bear on these marines - were they led to believe it was a necessary part of their preparation?

[Touchdown]

35. I guess Mexican sludge runoff and whale piss are next to godliness.

Who knew?:shrug:

[WolverineDG]

38. Was that part of the ocean paid for by federal tax dollars?

What's it to you if some Marines want to get baptized anyway?

dg

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

48. The Crusades Redux.

[piratefish08]

51. it's a holy war. always has been.

oh. and the oil.

[SoxFan]

60. OMG! TWO DOZEN ADULTS EXCERCISED THEIR 1ST AMENDMENT RIGHTS!

CALL CONGRESS RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!1!

Twenty-nine people, folks. A USMC batallion has between 500 and a thousand Marines. Relax.

[Better Believe It]

70. This has nothing to do with 1st Amendment Rights. It has everything to do with the separation of ..

church and state.

"The baptisms, done Sunday morning by the battalion chaplain, are part of Operation Sword of the Spirit, a program meant to prepare the battalion for duty in the Taliban stronghold of Helmand province.

The baptism service was attended by Lt. Col. Lawrence Kaifesh, the battalion commander, who called each of the 29 Marines forward for the symbolic immersion at Gold Beach.

"The spiritual and religious foundation that we're able to develop here allows us to perform our job the way we need to in a very challenging environment," Kaifesh said.

"I believe and trust that God will take me and my fellow Marines back home safely," Lance Cpl. Yeke Sumo said in a statement released by the Marine Corps."

So the government is now in the business of issuing press releases, photos and organizing religious military missions expressing specific Christian views, preferences and goals.

[SoxFan]

75. Ever been on a military post?

There are chaplains of all sorts of denominations. There are chapels. There are prayer groups.

Putting on a uniform does not mean surrendering your right to practice your religion. If these Marines wanted to undergo the rite of baptism before deploying overseas, so be it.

Oh, and it most certainly is a First Amendment issue:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

[Better Believe It]

79. The U.S. Marine Corps is part of the U.S. government. You didn't know that?

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Well I guess I broke the law

when I went to Temple at Naval Base Honolulu...

So did my husband, and the rest of the people, both retired and active duty, who attended Friday Service.

Why do you think the military has CHAPLAINS?

You think that a soldier, sailor, marine should not step on a religious institution while in the service?

As I posted bellow, this is standard for units deploying... hell there were SERVICES performed before major landings all across the Pacific in World War Two. They included BAPTISMS...

I guess the Marines have been breakin' them laws since at least their foundation in the 18th century.

[Better Believe It]

83. Was it organized as an official military operation against Afghanistan?

Well, it should not have been allowed in my opinion.

If someone who is in the military wishes to pray to or participate in some sort of worship to an invisible being, that is their right.

And they should attend such worship meetings out of uniform whenever possible.

But, to have the government organize sectarian Christian religious functions as part of a military operation against Muslims is a clear violation of our Constitution, in my opinion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. No, they were military operations organized against the

Empire of Japan. Then there were the Military Operations organized against the German state when USMC personnel went into Belau Wood... oh in 1917

Your opinion is fine, but realize the military has had Chaplains from the beginning and offered religious services from the beginning before battle. It does not violate squat.

[Better Believe It]

103. Should the State Department, and other dept's in the federal gov't also organize Christian events?

How about the Agricultural Department, the Department of Energy, Department of Labor and OSHA organizing Christian services and events?

I for one don't want the federal government pushing any religious indoctrination with taxpayers funds.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. They do and they have

You really did not know this, did you?

There is no constitutional issue as long as you, as an employee, are not forced to attend. But here is a hint... remember the service at the National Chapel after 9.11? Who do you think organized that? The tooth fairy?

Hell, there is a prayer at the beginning of the Congressional cycle every year. It was a "scandal", I tell you, when it was an Iman who offered it. At least to the right of this country who TRIED to make hash out of it.

And yes, there is a Chaplain that works with Congress, REGULARLY.

I guess you really did not know this.

[Better Believe It]

109. They shouldn't. And in my opinion the courts should prohibit such gov't sponsored religion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. As I said, as long as

you are not forced to attend ANY service while in government service, there is no violation of the establishment clause.

It's been before the Courts, and only when people are forced.

It does not make Christianity the official faith, like oh in England where the Queen is the official head of the Church of England... if you happen to have a Chaplain that works with insert department of the Government here, to service their spiritual needs of employees. And yes I have known Catholic Chaplains who have exercised at a Jewish wedding, because that is the ONLY chaplain on base.

The US, for historic reasons, does not have such a strict separation that a member of the government cannot attend any church... leading to comedic events, like when Portillo's daughter married, and he had to wait and watch the ceremony on a TV screen. He could not walk his daughter down the aisle because a President of Mexico cannot, still, go to church while in office (though that is changing and for historic reasons there is a danger in that.)

And the Founders did not see the exercise of religion in the way it's been done for the last 200+ years to be an issue. It becomes an issue when we have incidents like we've had at the AF academy, or when now retired Lt. Gen Boykin made his statements about his god being better, in a church while in Uniform, for which he should have been severely slapped. But the way it usually it is done, the Courts have not found it to violate the Establishment clause. And the same goes for the military.

By the way you would have a case if oh every member of the Battalion was forced to attend. Nineteen guys, forced it is not.

You have a right to your opinion, and if this is strong enough the Religious Freedom Foundation is a good place to start.

[Rage for Order]

126. The US government is the citizenry of the US.

Don't you know that? The government derives its power from the consent of the governed

[slackmaster]

98. Were any Marines compelled to take part in this or any other religious ceremony?

TIA for your answer.

[grantcart]

62. Where is the link substantiating the claim that Lt. Hlavin is a 'fundie'

Most US Chaplains are graduates of Seminaries and represent mainline denominations.


Unless you have evidence that Hlavin is a fundamentalist then you are engaging in a bigoted slur.


To answer your question Since when are US Marines . . .


The answer would be since the 1780s when the Marines were formed. Some have Baptisims, some take communion and some face Mecca and pray 5 times a day.


Joining the Marines does not mean that they lose their constitutional rights of practicing the religion that they choose. Those same constitutional rights allow you to bring a completely unwarranted bigotted slur against Lt. Hlavin even though you have no evidence of it. How long has DU allowed posters to bring bigotted slurs against people in the military?

[mstinamotorcity]

73. I have never been in the military

But a lot of the country may have been brought up as I was. Going to church at every opportunity sundays,revival,bible study,choir rehearsal,pastor's anniversary,choir's anniversary,usher board,children's choir,young peoples choir,men's day, women's day,pastor's nurses guild,tent revivals,need I go on? There are some who just happen to believe in the power of a higher being. All my uncles and my father talked about Chaplin's in the service. When my grandmother couldn't find my uncle during the Vietnam war she talked to Chaplin's and even wrote a letter to the President trying to find her son.He did come home. Not the same. If having that little piece of comfort from the ocean will let them deal with the real horrors and heroics of war then I really don't see anything wrong with them wanting to be baptized. If it was a forced issue that they had to practice a religious ceremony because they were told to,that is another story to be dealt with. But if its about personal choice then what is the problem? I think sometimes we have too much time on our hands to concern our self with things that have nothing to do with people's personal choices in religion. Because the place they are going, the people in that country feel the same or more intense (as some of the right are) about their faith and religion. Why is it that we can't see that their are some extreme elements in all religions.Including those who do not believe. When are we as just plain old self respecting people going to learn that we need to treat people like we want to be treated.With respect.My support and safe journey to the soldiers. And those who made it home Thank you. I may not believe in war but I do understand the sacrifice.

[Obamanaut]

110. +1 nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. I don't have enough info to know if this was voluntary

or not.

For the record, and I am sure you do not know this... service before battle is as old as the US Military.

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/3244043/Hulton-Archive

http://www.ww2incolor.com/us-army/chaplain.html

Do you think those troops were also engaged in a crusade? Well according to Ike they were. But my point is this has been going on for oh... since the US Military sent troops to war.

[Duer 157099]

84. If memory serves, that beach is called "Las Pulgas" (the fleas)

Kind of a yucky place to be baptized if you asked me.

[JerseygirlCT]

87. Oh. My. God.

Really? WTF were they thinking?

Besides the (one would think) all to obvious constitutional issues, talk about winning hearts and minds.

I'm flabbergasted.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. As I pointed above, WHAT CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES?

the Military has offered services before battle from oh ever.

And 19, out of a battalion ranging from 500-1000 personnel does not mandatory make.

See above, I posted PHOTOS from WW II. What it was fine back then?

And yet another reason why Americans need to know what their military does REGULARLY.

[SoxFan]

94. The complainers have no clue about how the military operates

When I was in the Army, I attended Catholic services when they were available. I chose not to attend the services that were run by a Baptist chaplain. That was my choice. If the guys in my platoon wanted to go to the Baptist service, I had no problem with that, so long as it didn't disrupt operations.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. No they don't

and are blowing a gasket over a thing that is tradition

Now blowing a gasket over the goings on at the Air Force Academy... that is something to be concerned... as there is actual harassment.

Hell when in somebody else's when we responded to a call my driver crossed himself many a times and I silently said the Shema... before I lost my religion that is.

I can even say exactly when...

[LAGC]

96. I'd just be concerned about those who might have been coerced into going along with it.

You know, with all the peer pressure that goes with wanting to please your comrades and all.

I just think we need to get the word out about the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, so that soldiers know their rights, and aren't afraid to stand up for them.

http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. A battalion has 1000 personnel

19 does not sound to me like anybody was coerced, but that is just me.

[SoxFan]

100. In fact, it sounds low

The military is heavily Southern, which means that there are a LOT of 19 year old Baptists running around. A lot of them probably haven't been baptized yet, so the fact that a couple of dozen people out of a thousand chose to undergo this rite is really nothing at all.

[beam me up scottie]

117. Thank you for posting that link.

I don't think these particular Marines were coerced but it's no secret that christian extremists do prey on vulnerable soldiers.

[slackmaster]

99. Unrec for ridiculous knee-jerk hysteria

:eyes:

[proteus_lives]

102. Yeah, freedom of religion sucks.

:eyes:

[seattleblue]

113. Apparently you have never been on a military base.

There are churches in base everyone I have been on. They actually perform religious services and activities in them.

[hack89]

114. Unrec for over the top hyperbole and ignorance of the military. nt

[another saigon]

115. My nephew will be there soon

next month or so before his Afghanistan tour. I have no doubt he will participate. His soul has been completely assimilated.

:(

[proteus_lives]

136. Does your nephew know how little you think of him?

[another saigon]

142. nice

he is a product of a less than useless mother (my sister) and father. He is a gun lovin redneck marine who can not wait "to kill Iraqis". His words from six years ago. I guess he will have to suffer and just kill Afghans.

Yes, he is a disappointment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. Let me guess, his first deployment?

He'll soon get cured of that...

I hope.

[another saigon]

151. yes it is

just more cannon fodder for the MIC

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. Then that is the brave talk of any trooper going on a first deployment

it helps to cure the nerves... well not cure them... but deal with them.

Once he faces his first fire fight, he will be a changed man... that is inevitable, as the sun rises in the East.

Some people admit to it, some get worst in the brave talk to outsiders...

[another saigon]

152. yes it is

just more cannon fodder for the MIC

[firedupdem]

116. Unrec

So what? If they wish to be baptized what is it to you?

[Zhade]

123. If it's done with government endorsement or taxpayer money, it's illegal.

NT!

[quiet.american]

124. No, it's not. nt

[firedupdem]

125. Total Bullshit...grasping at straws to find something to be outraged

about. We still have freedom of religion in this country. Get over it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. No it is not

it enters the ground of illegality when you are forced to participate as a federal employee... as long as that don't happen. it don't matter whether this is the Chaplain that officiates at Congress, or a Navy Chaplain, or those at State...

But if this is voluntary, 19 out of 1000 Marines sounds like it, it does not violate the Establishment clause.

As I have explained above, we have CHAPLAINS on bases, and surprise, shocking I know, they have officiated like since the Corp was founded, before troops go to battle.

People really NEED to pick up a history book and chiefly read it. In this case, one with photos...

[Zhade]

133. My apologies, I seem to have misread the OP. I will go back and look at it again.

My point stands, but not it seems in this case.

No need to be a snarkhole about it, by the way. People make mistakes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. There is a strong minority and loud too

around these parts that really thinks that even having a chaplain at the base is a violation of the Establishment clause. Or they simply have a very anti military anything view.

I have problems with some of what is going on

Read Boykin, which violated the UCMJ.

Read what is going on at the AF Academy, which actually forces cadets to participate, and that is a violation.

:-)

No worries. It is easy to get worked up over something like this.

[pinboy3niner]

144. You're absolutely right

The segregation of the troops from civilian society is what necessitated an institutional response to assure that these citizen-soldiers are afforded their rights, that they have meaningful access to society's religious institutions. And so we have military chaplains, and chapels, on military bases.

Some of what is going on now, like Boykin and the AF Academy, is disturbing, and we have to guard against that. But I have no problem with the military affording the troops a means of exercising their religious freedom. That's something we should applaud, not condemn.

[SoxFan]

154. Not true

Please do your homework.

[Rage for Order]

127. Oh noes!!111!!1!!

Whatever shall we do?????

:eyes:

[guitar man]

131. Last I knew

Marines were free to participate in whatever religious practices they chose. As long as it was voluntary and they were not ordered to do so, I have no problem with it.

[Douglas Carpenter]

135. that is perfectly fine as long as equal access to religious facilities, clergy and practice is

offered to members of all faiths and no coercion whatsoever is involved.

It has always been the practice of the U.S. military to provide chaplains and facilities for members of all faiths - be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist or even Wiccan.

There are reports of some fundamentalist groups using their military positions in coercive ways to propagate their beliefs. But a simple and voluntary and non-coercive Baptismal service is well within the rights of all the participants.

[Glassunion]

138. Yeah! Those fuckers! How dare they??!?!

Maybe you should take a deep breath and really look at the situation.

You have a group of Marines, who in all honesty were there being baptized because they wanted to be. You had a Marine Corps photographer taking pictures because that is their job. And a reporter reporting on it. Nothing more.

To me from the comments in the OP and throughout the thread you seem to be making up a scenario then making a huge deal out of it. Chaplains are a service for servicemen and women. There is nothing that mandates or compels them to partake in services. There are services available to Christians, Jews and Muslims. But there are also chaplains available to atheists as well.

Their main function is to serve those who serve. They stand with our fighting men and women as support. They also are the oldest branch in the U.S. military to be in uniform, dating back to the Revolutionary War. Do yourself a favor and read about what a chaplain really is. Be careful, you might not find what you are looking for.

What does a Methodist a Rabbi a Priest and a Reverend have in common? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Chaplains they are all heros of the highest order.

[pinboy3niner]

148. Good response

I once had a brief acquaintance with a chaplain who was awarded the Medal of Honor in Vietnam. Later, as a member of Veterans for Peace, he placed his medal at the Vietnam Veterans' Memorial in D.C. as an antiwar statement.

There's good reason for the military to have chaplains, and for all of us to value the service they provide to our troops.

[JI7]

140. it was only 29 MArines, and they have a right to do what they did

[ProdigalJunkMail]

143. bigot much?

[CBGLuthier]

145. And then they put down their weapons and declared peace? Right? Right?

Weird form of christianity the warrior christ.

[polmaven]

146. Unrec for yet another "bashing" OP!

Since when do soldiers lose their right to practice their chosen religion? Get over it!

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Glassunion]

155. A more in depth response.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8894956

I think I touched on all of your points.