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The GOPhers real purpose for proposing to "clarify" the 14th amendment

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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 11:56 AM
Original message
The GOPhers real purpose for proposing to "clarify" the 14th amendment
I don't believe the GOPhers realistically expect to overturn any part of the 14th amendment. They simply do not have the political capital to make it happen and they know it. However, what few people realize yet is they don't really have to do that in order to accomplish their goal. The seeds for ending birthright citizenship were planted from it's inception and the wingnuts intend to nurture that tree with this debate and harvest their fruit in the USSC, which they have already stacked in their favor.

Before I go into this, and someone accuses me of repeating RW talking points, I will say that I unequivocally do NOT agree with any of it, but it is the tactic that will be used by the wingnuts and everyone needs to be aware of it and recognize it for what it is. Many probably think the wingnuts don't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting an amendment passed on this issue, and they are probably right, but we should be concerned about this anyway and fully prepared to fight it.

If you listen closely to what the wingnuts are saying, you should notice they want the 14th amendment to be "clarified", and not necessarily repealed. This word has a definite purpose. From a plain language reading of the 14th amendment, the matter seems pretty straightforward and unambiguous.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.


The tricky part here is "subject to the jurisdiction thereof". So what does that mean. To the average man on the street, if you are inside the country, regardless of the circumstances, you are "subject to the jurisdiction", but the meaning of this in legal terms is not so straightforward. It can mean different things in different circumstances. To dive a little deeper into this question, most USSC members and legal scholars use the congressional record to figure out what the intent of the wording was, so context can be interpreted. The author of the 14th amendment, Senator Jacob M. Howard of Michigan, was very adamant that birthright citizenship NOT be applied to aliens, and he said so in the congressional record,

Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llcg&fileName=073/llcg073.db&recNum=11

On one hand, that would seem to end the debate. Obviously congress did NOT intend to include the children of aliens, right? Wrong. Congress most certainly did address those points during the debate. At the time, immigrants from China were being used all over the US as cheap labor. The question of extending citizenship rights to their children most certainly was discussed during the 14th amendment debate. Some of the members of congress who voted against the 14th amendment were afraid of being "overrun" by immigrants from China, ultimately they LOST that debate and the 14th amendment was passed. I'm not going to post those comments in whole because they are lengthy, but you can read them on the Media Matters sight here:
http://mediamatters.org/research/201007310005

Newt Gingrich has been trying to raise this issue since at least 1994, and possibly earlier. The political climate has never been favorable enough until now. I can guarantee you that the wingnuts WILL cherry pick statements from the congressional record and USSC rulings in regards to "subject to the jurisdiction thereof", they WILL cherry pick which legal scholars they will quote, and they WILL try to challenge this in the courts. If it manages to make it to the USSC, I think we all know what the outcome will be.

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HillbillyBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Pass that plate o misery please , i just can't get enough
Seems to be what the Rs love to serve up as we all 'know' misery loves company, or maybe they overweening greed and selfishness.

I can see where this shit could go..oh you are not a millionaire? you are a serf! You are not a citizen you are chattel.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That was exactly what the 14th amendment intended to prevent
Prior to the 14th amendment, states decided who could be recognized as a citizen, and the former confederate states sure as hell weren't going to recognize freed slaves. The dilemma here is obvious. The states could dictate class simply by denying you rights enjoyed by everyone else, and there was virtually no limit on how they could exercise that power.
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. "subject to the jurisdiction thereof"
They want to define it as they see fit. Kinda like when you hear the argument about the 2nd amendments, "well regulated" part.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Yes - If you are in the US, you are subject to jurisdiction, unless you have immunity

Anyone present in the US is "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" with the notable exception of diplomats and visiting foreign leaders to whom immunity is extended as a courtesy.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yes, but you're referring to jurisdiction in regards to criminal liability
Which is something else entirely. If you read United States v. Wong Kim Ark, almost the whole opinion revolves around the "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/search/display.html?terms=elk+v+wilkins&url=/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0169_0649_ZO.html
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yah the word "jurisdiction" has multiple meanings

Traditionally, it was the ability of the Lord's knights to lay hands upon you.

In this case it pretty much means "present in US territory without immunity".
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. They also discuss other things like loyalty issues and several other things
For instance, American Indians were excluded because they owed no loyalty to the US.

But essentially the case should put the issue of alien jurisdiction to rest, however there's a couple of things to consider here. One, the United States v. Wong Kim Ark case is sufficiently complicated so that people who have an agenda can read all sorts of things into it. Two, the Roberts court has already established they are ready, willing, and able to wipe their ass with stare decisis. So all you really need is a wingnut judge, a right leaning district appeals court, and bingo, you've got the question right in the hands of Roberts.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Indians were members of their own nations

...and their status wasn't resolved until legislation early in the 20th century.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Yes, and they still are today
I'm a card carrying member of the Choctaw tribe myself.

I'm not trying to suggest aliens were in the same boat as Native Americans, I'm saying the issue was more complex than just criminal jurisdiction. However, the question of alien jurisdiction was discussed at length both at the time the 14th amendment passed and again during the Wong Kim Ark decision. The 14th amendment debate resolved it, and the Wong Kim Ark decision "clarified" it.
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JustAnotherGen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well . . . I wrote my Republican Congress Critter on the issue . . .
Edited on Wed Aug-04-10 01:51 PM by JustAnotherGen
ETA - I sent this over to him this a.m.:

Representative Lance - Will you be issuing a statement or offering any alternatives to the GOP plan lead by McConnell to remove the citizenship of black Americans as defined in the 14th Amendment? As I'm sure you know that removing would send black Americans back to the decision made in the Dred Scott Case and the 14th Amendment was designed to make null and void that SCOTUS decision.

My greatest fear - my greatest fear - is that someone like my father. A black man born in Talladega Alabama in 1941 (Read: Jim Crow South), who is well educated (completed his B.A. at Rochester Institute of Technology) and a former member (career) of the United States Army (not only a Captain, but he also served as a Green Beret in the 1960's) . . . a man who when he was on leave could not even vote in his home state of AL without fear of being lynched in spite of his Service to God, Country and the American way . . .

Will be reduced to chattel status.

Can you please begin the pressure on your GOP colleauges now that they will provide special considerations to those Americans with even one drop of black blood to ensure that we are not reduced back to being slaves?

I'm sure you can understand a true and valid concern of one of your constituents. I will be asking/reaching out to Ed Postonak to issue a statement on this idea coming from the GOP that they will strip black Americans of their citizenship.

With Warmest Regards,
justanothergen


*********************************************
Okay - hyperbole? "You betcha" says Bible Spice!

But keep in mind - I'm the person that wrote Lance 138 emails and/or letters last summer during the health care debate.

I also receive his ‘email’ polls to participate in. He lies. Constantly. So I figured since I can’t beat him, Ed Postonak is not going to get any support from the Democratic Party to beat this s.ob. down . . .


I’ll try to drive him insane with crazy talk, letters making fun of him and his job, emails about – Whatcha gonna do now? Etc. etc.


It’s become – well? Almost sport for me to send him crazy talk emails and letters. Especially since I was NOT admitted to a town hall this past winter.

Me thinketh he is afraid of little ole me. Probably has me on a Do Not Admit list. :rofl:
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is about them challenging Obama's citizenship in 2012....
....on the fringes.


That's what it is about.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Correct

Bizarre, but correct.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thanks for letting us know ... any involvement by rw and esp Newt tells the story ...
-- so the target is children of "aliens" -- hmmm...

The GOP racists just never tire of their destructive pursuits!



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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
13. Stop calling 'em gophers!
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Not gophers, GOPhers
These are gophers:





These are GOPhers:

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