Illegal immigrants say they do the jobs Americans refuse to do.

[dkf]

The unemployed say there are no jobs out there, they are not too lazy to work and they do not stay on unemployment because they get more in their unemployment checks than they would working.

Who is telling the truth? Can both these statements be true?

[Brickbat]

1. Both statements can be true if you present them correctly.

Illegal immigrants often do the jobs Americans refuse to do FOR THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY OR UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS.

The unemployed say there are no jobs out there, THAT DO NOT KEEP THEM AT THE STANDARD OF LIVING THEY HAD BEFORE THEY WERE UNEMPLOYED.

Generally speaking.

[JustAnotherGen]

6. ITA

As well - the Average American citizen or green card holder can't go do 'day labor'. Let's say - yes indeedy the person hiring them completes a 1099 (I think that's the correct form).

The person hiring them say to go do drywall or masonry (two fields hit and wages depressed by cheaper labor force)- would most likely tell the government on that form: I paid minimum wage.

When in fact - the employee was not paid minimum wage - but they get whacked for taxes for that.

Just a little tiny thought to share/consider about depressed wages.


Honestly - I think the two statements frame it up from a BUSINESS OWNERS point of view.

Frame it up from the American Workers pov: I want to work, earn a living wage, get breaks, not be abused, not be mistreated, etc. etc.


So I think Americans won't do the jobs that Businesses Cheat The System on is a more accurate statement.

[WingDinger]

2. Without universal health care, stoop labor will see masses of disabled americans.

And manyt of those offering stoop labor dont want to pay overtime, or anything else. They sure as hell dont want to hire americans, who will demand fair treatment, workers comp, decent working conditions etc.

[Edweird]

3. Illegal immigration is labor busting - just like H1B's, H2B's and outsourcing.

[Iggo]

4. Both. Yes.

[ejpoeta]

5. i think both are true.

people who are here illegally are willing to work for less and are easily exploited because of their status. they also will do anything. unemployed workers are probably not yet at that point of being willing to do anything because they have unemployment, as well as the fact that they are actively looking for a job near their field. would, for example, a person who was working as an engineer go pick fruit in the field? i imagine that at the point they are living in their car with their kids they would be willing to do that. and that is probably where the big corporations want us. no more unions and back to slave labor.

[dkf]

7. Isn't the solution then to make these jobs palatable to Americans?

And you can only do that by enforcing labor laws? Is this dilemma not then the fault of the federal government?

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. Controlled immigration IS a labor law. n/t

[dkf]

18. I agree. So uncontrolled and illegal immigration is also a failure of federal labor law

High Unemployment in this case is the fault of the federal government.

[LanternWaste]

25. So is smoking pot.

"Uncontrolled and illegal immigration is also a failure of federal... law."

So is smoking pot. :shrug:

ed: sp

[EstimatedProphet]

13. You want to make them palatable? Pay a real wage.

No one is going to daylabor for an entire day for $10 if they don't have to. It's insulting that people think they should.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. Yep. If some job is less pleasant than being unemployed, there's something wrong with the job.

And the wrong part is usually the pay part.

[SocialistLez]

32. +1 NT

[gratuitous]

14. I expect any day now, we'll get those side agreements to NAFTA

All us worry-wart libruls were told, in no uncertain terms, that as bad as NAFTA might be in its present condition, it would all be fixed with a couple of side agreements. It was far more important that the President get a victory on this agreement than to concern ourselves with labor and environmental details. It would get all worked out, see. There were some societal and cultural differences between the U.S., Canada and Mexico that had to be ironed out, but soon, very soon, side agreements would be in place that would guarantee that labor conditions and environmental considerations would be respected and enforced.

It's been 14 years. I haven't heard a peep about any of that.

[pscot]

8. Laborers wanted

Seasonal outdoor work; 10 hour days, 50 hour week. Pays $250 per week. No withholding, no benefits. Equal opportunity employer.

[sinkingfeeling]

10. Yes, they're both true in some cases. My son, who is 40, lost his job as a

restaurant manager a year ago. He decided it was time to return to college and change direction. He receives the max amount of weekly unemployment in this state, so hasn't taken a part-time job as a cook. He still has 14 weeks of UI left. He will be starting his second year of college at the same time.

[madville]

11. The ones I have been around were primarily agricultural workers

Most cleared $400-800 a week cash, not bad money but they busted their butts for it. When I was a kid we worked those types of jobs and it was decent money, now you don't see a white or black person out there, it's all Hispanics.

We used to run a good side business, we would buy 5 or 6 cases of Natural Light and Busch beer everyday and visit the places all the migrant/illegal workers lived/camped. Many didn't have ID or any way to get to the store. That beer was $7-8 a 24-case then and we sold them for $1 a beer out of coolers in the truck. Used to pick up $60 or $70 a day extra money pretty easy.

[uncommon]

12. Many people remain on unemployment bc the pay is better than what jobs are available to them

That's definitely true. I've witnessed it many many times.

[Bobbieo]

15. We'll find out, for sure, in AZ next winter at harvest time!!!

[JVS]

17. We didn't believe it when John McCain said it, why should we take their word for it?

They work for the wage that Americans cannot support a normal standard of living on. If you paid Americans enough money to do the jobs to support a family, they would. Since the wage is not high enough, what you end up with is employees who migrate here, live in extreme poverty, and try to send as much as possible home.

[Tailormyst]

19. It's more like they do jobs for pay that Americans refuse to do.

landscaping and construction are examples of this. What were once blue collar jobs are now minimum wage jobs. All that time and effort spent trying to get fair labor practices and safety regulations thrown out the window when the new minimum wage employees are unable to complain to anyone for fear of deportation. It's a lose lose lose for everyone but those who profit from the cheap labor.

Those who are here and law abiding, let them stay and live and give them the ability to demand a safe workplace and a decent wage. Those companies who break the laws need to be heavily fined.

[dkf]

20. But haven't they turned into low wage jobs BECAUSE we have illegal immigrants who do them so cheap?

[Tailormyst]

24. Yes, they have.

Because the immigrants are not in a position to demand better wages. The emphasis has to be put on the employers and those profiting off of cheap labor.

[obxhead]

21. Illegal immigrants do jobs that industries refuse to pay a fair wage.

If we had a serious crack down on companies that employ illegal immigrants, especially at below minimum wage levels and forced them to pay a fair wage then there would be plenty of legal citizens lining up for those jobs.

The argument is used to hide and distort the truth simple as that.

[pitohui]

22. scabs always say they're doing the jobs others unwilling to do

how can you compete fairly w. those who work for slave wages? you can't

both of these statements are only true in the sense that locals can't AFFORD to lose money by working, they can't pay their bills on min. wage or less, the scabs are cutting them off at the legs

the cost of living in the usa is still significantly higher than in most parts of latin america, the guy who lives in a trailer w. 5 other guys to send his check home to mexico maybe can afford to work for almost nothing (literally nothing on those days when he's cheated because the contractor knows he has no recourse), but the local has to pay rent or a mortgage, he has to actually get some coin for his labor

[Gormy Cuss]

23. The "jobs Americans won't do" argument will never fly with unemployed or low income workers.

That argument makes sense to the upper income people who like hiring foreigners on the cheap to do yard work, housework, and child care but to people who are struggling them's fighting words.

People who have economic security generally aren't worried about illegal immigration. When the economy was doing well and there were jobs everywhere no one cared one whit about the flow of immigrants. How else would we get to the point where we had over ten million undocumented residents? Does anyone think that no one noticed?

[Greyhound]

26. No. Illegal immigrants do the jobs Americans won't do

for the wages offered. They always seem to forget that last bit...

The oft evoked terror of the dreaded $5 head of lettuce has been the standard fodder of this canard, all the while ignoring the fact that if a living wage causes the price to climb to $5, then a head of lettuce is worth $5 and the lower price is the result of subsidizing the true costs, which harms society as a whole.

[Retrograde]

27. Both can be true

Here on the West Coast, there are certain jobs dominated by Spanish-speaking workers: dishwashers, painters, construction workers, landscape maintainers. We have a large immigrant population. But when I go back to visit my family in upstate New York, where there is a much, much smaller immigrant population, those jobs are mostly held by native-born Americans (including my relatives).

I think it comes down to cost. If you (or the contracting company you hire) has the choice of paying union wages to skilled labor, and doing all the paper work that entails, or picking up a crew of day laborers as needed and paying them a much lower amount in cash off the books, which do you think they'll go for?

[Liberal_in_LA]

28. Yes, both statements can be true. Urban unemployed would not

even consider some type of work (working in fields). Nothing to do with laziness.

[dkf]

29. "laziness". A disinclination to activity or exertion despite the ability to do so

Per wikipedia.

How does this fit?

[1957john1957]

30. If US citizens wouldn't do the jobs, and if there weren't illegal immigrants to do them, one or more

of the following would happen:
1) the wages/benefits paid to do the job would go up
2) working conditions would become safer
3) the job would be automated (if cheaper than paying the market rate as established by US citizens willing to do the job at the right price)
4) if there was a demand for the services or merchandise, someone else would find a different way to produce them

US citizens are often NOT willing to do the job at the pay and in the conditions illegals do the job. The illegal immigrants make the law of supply and demand not work the way it should. If federal regulators were enforcing existing regulations, and if congress refused to allow bribes (oops, campaign donations) to influence how they write regulations, we could avoid the situation of anyone, including illegal immigrants working in unsafe conditions.

Consider this for example: there are enough good speakers of English in India and China who would be willing to teach our children at 50% of what our current teachers get paid. Should we run the market for teachers in the same way that the market for fresh produce is run - namely, allowing illegal immigrants (or perhaps temporary but legal immigrants) to do the job for far less than our current teachers get paid?

[SocialistLez]

31. Americans would do many of these jobs if they paid more....simple as that.

The big reason illegal immigrants get these jobs is because they accept lower wages than what the "typical" American would desire/require/whatever.