According to birthers' logic, Geo Washington should not have been President.

[mistertrickster]

The CONs who perpetuate the "zombie lie" (a term coined by Krugman for lies that won't die no matter how often they are killed) that Barack Obama "was not born on American soil" have a problem.

And it's not just the official birth certificate that Obama posted on the internet. And it's not just that they are batshit crazy.

It's that if an American president has to be born on American soil then that disqualifies George Washington. He was born in 1732, some forty-four years before the United States became a country to which one could be born into.

The Constitution only stipulates that the President must be "a natural born citizen" -- that is, not a foreign immigrant who becomes naturalized. With an American mother, Obama already meets that test as did Mr. Washington.

[Withywindle]

1. I've always thought that "natural born citizen" thing could be derailed by the Macbeth Technicality

in which someone born by C-section could be disqualified.

[mistertrickster]

3. Hehe, yup. MacDuff was "untimely ripped" from his mother's womb.

"Look on your charm and despair, Macbeth!"

I remember it well.

[Withywindle]

5. Used to great advantage by every writer who wanted to expose the weakness of prophecies.

Also used by Tolkien, in the case of the Witch-King of Angmar, whom "no living man" could hinder.

So he was done in by a woman.

Gotta be very careful how you phrase things, if people prone to magical thinking are going to be interpreting your words as an oracle.

[Ozymanithrax]

2. No, Washington and other founding fathers were grandfathered in.

No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.

Assuming that any of them have read the Constitution.

[mistertrickster]

4. Hmmm . . . you are correct, sir. But the entire clause is kind of vague.

Obviously, Washington would qualify as "a citizen of the US" at the time of the adoption of this Constitution . . . but what about American Indians, freed slaves, recent immigrants who arrived the day before the Constitution was signed, non-English speaking "citizens" like the Amish?

Also, does "natural born" ONLY mean a child born on American soil? What about someone who was born in Texas before it was a state to American parents? Or the child of diplomats born overseas?

[Ozymanithrax]

6. At the time, most American Indians were considered members of...

independent nations. If anyone is still alive who was born before the constitution was ratified, they have a case. Not even John McCain was quite that old.

Natural born is defined by other laws and the 14th amendment, but at this time, you must be born within the United States, though McCain wasn't (Panama Canal Zone). Naturalized citizens are not natural born and can not serve.

Back when Republicans still like the Gropenator, there was talk about changing the law so that a natural born citizen would be considered a naturalized citizen who had been here more than 20 years. But they did not act on that.

My own reading of this law would probably not conform to tea party concepts. I accept that Hawaii is part of the United States, but many birthers think that Hawaii is in Kenya. It takes all kinds I guess.

[Sherman A1]

11. Well, the birthers are not always good with that

geography thing.

[Withywindle]

7. "Natural born citizen" still kind of bothers me.

Like I said above, will there someday be a test case where the deeply personal history of someone born by Caesarian section or surrogate or IVF (super extra likely if the parents are a GLBT couple) will be taken up as a banner by hateful wingnuts who don't like the current President's (whoever s/he and his/her ethnicity and/or gender identity or sexual orientation might be?) After all, a case could be made that those forms of birth aren't "natural" in a way that was understood in the 1700s. And the possibility of a C-section as a technicality around the idea of what was "natural" at the time was addressed by Shakespeare in the 1500s!

That passage was written at a time when the possibility of "foreign" (read: British Tory) infiltrators ascending to the Presidency was a lot more likely than it is now.

[Ozymanithrax]

8. Look, McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone...

and that was ignored.

However, the current law as I understand it means that you had to be born in the United States, not the method by which the doctor removed a person from the uterus. Wingnuts are crazy, and I suppose they could try, but I doubt it would go anywhere.

More interesting to me, is that since Corporations have free speech rights, could a corporation created here in the U.S. be considered "natural born" and could we elect a corporation to be President?

[Withywindle]

9. Yeah, and we know Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961

and they still won't stop screeching about it.

What if Obama had been born in Hawaii three years earlier--before Hawaii got statehood?


I'm twitchy on this issue because only one of my parents was officially a US citizen at the time that I was born. But although my mom only had a student visa (like Obama's dad) my father was a US-born citizen from many generations (like Obama's mom) and they were legally married just like Obama's parents were (though, being an interracial couple, they couldn't have done that in all states, which makes me really furious about Obama not making repealing DOMA a high priority--I mean, the idea of "state's rights" controlling marriage should be something he ought to be PERSONALLY aware of the downsides...)

I'm a first-gen child of immigrants on one side...and eligible for the DAR on the other. Am I a "natural-born" citizen? Well, if I, a queer bi-national bi-ethnic woman, were likely to rise to a position of national power, you bet there'd be creeps coming out of the woodwork to research any minutiae they could challenge my position on.

Yes, I know that McCain's claim to "natural-born citizenship" is weaker than Obama's. The facts don't matter nearly as much as who your enemies are and how willing they are to play dirty.

[seattleblue]

10. This issue was settled long ago.

Goldwater was born in AZ when it was a territory and everyone agreed he was eligible to run for President. Washington and the others were grandfathered in.

[mistertrickster]

15. No kidding. I did not know that. Interesting . . . nt.

[Ozymanithrax]

19. The Panama Canal Zone was not a territory.

You are right about it being settled, except for the racist nationalists out there who whine.

I noticed in the Checkout line that "the Globe" has a lead story that states Obama wasn't born here. Idiots will believe anything that justifies their prejudiced world view.

[Ozymanithrax]

17. The 14th ammendment covers you.

Short of ammending the constitution that will not change.

[mistertrickster]

14. Interesting discussion. Thanks for your analysis. nt.

[Ross K]

12. "or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution"

Shit! John Quincy Adams was the last legit Prez!

[malaise]

13. Your problem is that you assume birthers

know anything about George Washington including the fact that he was President

[EstimatedProphet]

16. Sure he should have been. He was white.

[tabbycat31]

18. neither would their 2008 candidate John McCain

as he was born in Panama.