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Is there any circumstance you can imagine that would justify military intervention abroad?

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 01:02 PM
Original message
Is there any circumstance you can imagine that would justify military intervention abroad?
The question is inspired by this post at Democracy Arsenal (My emphases below. See original for links to cites within):


The Sins of Liberal Interventionism?
Posted by Shadi Hamid

Ezra Klein's usually on-target, but he has me really, really confused here. In responding to an article by Timothy Garton-Ash, Ezra asserts that "liberal interventionism's great sin was to give us Iraq." Huh? Last time I checked, not one of the architects of the Iraq war was a "liberal interventionist" (i.e. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith). If you happen to think that liberal interventionists and neo-cons are the same thing - and I'm pretty sure Ezra doesn't - then I would refer you this post, where I explain the differences.

I will say this, however, and maybe this is what Ezra is getting at: although I was against the war since day one, I can't say that I necessarily opposed the idea of the war, or, more accurately, the idea of a war. If I try hard enough, I can envision a set of circumstances where I would have reluctantly supported an Iraq intervention of some sort, although it would've had to have been done very differently. To be sure, as a student of the Middle East, I'm keenly aware of America and Britain's unfortunate history of meddling in the region (1953 stands out as particularly egregious), so I understand why liberals are often suspicious of anything tasting of moral adventure abroad. But one can hope, as so many of us did. As I've written previously, early 2005 was something of a turning point for me. January 30, 2005 encompassed everything I had hoped for in a region that knew little but the pain of dissapointment. So, when I saw the pictures of Iraqis braving terrorist threats to vote for the first time in their lives, I saw the promise of what could have been and, what I believed then, was still possible - the building of a model democracy in Iraq that could inspire the rest of the region, and break the seemingly permanent grip of Arab autocracy. Yes, I was wrong to think that the Bush administration could have done it right. Yet, it is certainly conceivable that another administration (i.e. a Democratic one) could have. And if history had taken that very different course, then maybe the Middle East would've been the better for it.

With that said, let me pose a question to Ezra and others: under what principle or set of principles do you think the Iraq war was necessarily, and for all times, wrong? And if you're going to answer that question, you have to be able to separate between Bush's war and the abstract war, let's call it, that could have been fought if we knew how to fight it. I don't believe that sovereignty is sacrosanct, particularly if we're talking about governments which are unelected and illegitimate. Should America reserve the "right to intervene," even in the case of non-imminent threats? Yes, i.e. Bosnia, Kosovo, Darfur. I can't imagine Ezra thinks that we shouldn't have stopped Slobodan Milosevic from his campaign of ethnic cleansing. The issue then, I suppose, is what meets the threshold that necessitates intervention.



My response: There is no circumstance I can imagine that would have necessitated intervening in Iraq, given what was known (even weighed against what was not known) at the time all this came to a head in late 2002, early 2003. What argued most strenuously against intervening in Iraq was the much thought about consequences of unleashing Shiites and Kurds with the Sunni suddenly vulnerable to retaliation for years of Saddam's sectarian and ethnically motivated sins. Of course this could open one up to charges of being tolerant of the status quo at the expense of the ojects of Saddam's persecutions. But I am not arguing against diplomatic or political attempts at solving those problems, just against the idea that military intervention was the best course. Clearly it was not. Doubtful anyone else could have done any better given the circumstances of 2003.

I'll need to ponder a bit whether military intervention is ever really "necessary." Perhaps to stop genocide and violence by a government against civilians. But it should never be done the way the Bushists handled the run-up to Iraq, by steam-rolling over and ignoring all opposition, domestic and foreign.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think that an ongoing genocide justifies intervention. I think a powerful
nation with the means has a moral obligation to stop genocide in another part of the world. That wasn't the case in Iraq. The genocide of Kurds and southern Shia happened 10 years prior. The Iraq invasion is forever unjust.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. The liberal interventionists Ezra Klein refers to made the mistake, in my opinion,
of equating Saddam's slow motion brutality with Milosevic's programmatic ethnic slaughter, designed to create a "Greater Serbia," Hitler-style, out of land he had no claim to. Intervening in Iraq in 2003 to make Saddam pay for a genocidal event in 1988--three years before the first Gulf War--really made no sense and completely ignored all the other circumstances that promised an outcome like the one we're struggling to extricate our troops from now.
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dave_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Neither of them
Not much "programmatic ethnic slaughter" from Milosevic either, just a string of bloody wars aimed at securing Serb-inhabited territories to Serb administration. All of the Yugoslav suucessor regimes were at it. Serbs were indeed the last to accept an ethnic carve-up that invariably left Serbs on the wrong side of borders unrelated to any nationality concept.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Was it not Serbs who tried to "cleanse" Bosnia of non-Serbs
and, in particular, of Mulsims? Was that not a program to ethnically cleanse B-H of non-Serbs in preparation of annexing it to Serbia?

Even so, I'm not sure that the US needed to intervene militarily to stop that violence. US intervention, in the age of a single superpower, is almost always problematic, for one thing. It's difficult not to read every US military move as motivated in some way by imperialism.
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dave_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Not as such
Serbia wasn't interested in most of Bosnia, just the Serb-majority parts whose population didn't want to be part of the new state. The war took on its particularly brutal aspect as it became clear that the West was intent on reducing Serb-held areas to a minimum and denying them the choice independence or union with Serbia. The massacres were acts of terror rather than genocide, intended to secure contested strategic points for a future state. The Bosnian Muslims' sometime Croat allies carried out similar operations, but they were considered good guys.

Ethnic cleansing as applied in Bosnia was just a wartime reworking of the forced population movement that affected 12 million Germans after 1945, with Allied approval. The powers changed the rules in the middle of the game, encouraging Yugoslavia's breakup by announcing in advance that they'd recognize secession by ethnically-mixed units under non-Serb governments. Serbs remembered the massacres inflicted on them by neighboring groups under Nazi auspices 50 years earlier. It was a manufactured, unnecessary and unjust calamity.
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dave_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Yes and no
I agree with your restriction of the option to ongoing genocide, but I disagree that Saddam's actions against either the Kurds or the Shia counted as such. They were brutal actions against populations in areas of insurgency. Extermination on ethnic or communal grounds wasn't the aim, and a doubt that as a nationalist it formed any part of Saddam's makeup (compare the fate of Iraqi Christians before and after 2003).
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think military intervention can be justified (in general terms)...
Edited on Mon May-14-07 01:30 PM by hughee99
As you said, given what is known about Iraq, I don't see any standard that particular situation would have met, but the US has been involved in many conflicts (either directly or via UN peacekeeping missions) and some of them seem to be widely held as justified. In seemingly the most clear-cut of cases it involves the invasion of one nation by another (WWII, Kuwait). When you look at the case of strictly internal issues, it may be justified, but it results in far more disagreement (Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor, Rwanda, Darfur and Haiti).
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. Only via being included in UN peacekeeping forces. Period.
I do not think there is any other legal way to do so.

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. Of course there can. It is right wing BS that a liberal never wants
any military action in any circumstances whatever, due to their inability to see anything in more than black and white.
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dave_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. Klein is right
The principle of peaceful coexistence, territorial sovereignty and noninterference in the internal affairs of other countries should prevail except in the most extreme of circumstances. That's where Klein's right in tracing Iraq's destruction from "liberal" neocolonialism. The fundamentals of nonintervention were already in ruins well before Bush came along thanks to Nato "peacekeeping" in Lebanon and "humanitarian intervention" in Somalia, Bosnia and Kosovo.

What circumstances would justify invasion and killing (because that's what we're talking about here)? I like others would limit to ongoing genocide, and I'd require an overwhelming UN mandate. And by genocide a don't mean a few thousand deaths here & there, I mean the systematic attempted extermination of an ethnic, national or communal group by violence or by denial of territory or livelihood.

Interventionism's become a figleaf for remaking targeted countries in the west's image, often with disstrous consequences. We're still seeing the bloody aftermath of the US war against Somalia. Action to uphold "national" states in Yugoslavia left 2 million Serbs in states that they didn't see as their nation. In Lebanon in 1982, Nato forces oversaw PLO disarmament, abandoning Palestinian civilians to the massacres at Sabra and Shatila. Nato-supervised Kosovo is today effectively cleansed of its 1300-year-old Serb population. Iraq is just the most extreme case of the phenomenon.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
10. Dachau.
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dave_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. But nobody intervened over Dachau
... and nobody would have, because Germany was too powerful. Only poor countries with relatively harmless military assets qualify for the treatment.

Or is that the point you're making? Sorry, not sure.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. You asked for a circumstance. I gave you one.
Not a history lesson or a "That was then" thing. If I'm president, and I hear of a Dachau camp erasing people, I'd think such a circumstance would merit intervention.

"Intervention" isn't always military, by the way. Economic sanctions, international pressure, etc.
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dave_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. It wasn't me that asked for the circumstance
... and the poster specified military intervention.

I was puzzled by your choice of that particular camp, that's all.
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