British girls undergo horror of genital mutilation despite tough laws

[alp227]

Source: The Observer

Like any 12-year-old, Jamelia was excited at the prospect of a plane journey and a long summer holiday in the sun. An avid reader, she had filled her suitcases with books and was reading Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban when her mother came for her. "She said, 'You know it's going to be today?' I didn't know exactly what it would entail but I knew something was going to be cut. I was made to believe it was genuinely part of our religion."

She went on: "I came to the living room and there were loads of women. I later found out it was to hold me down, they bring lots of women to hold the girl down. I thought I was going to be brave so I didn't really need that. I just lay down and I remember looking at the ceiling and staring at the fan.

"I don't remember screaming, I remember the ridiculous amount of pain, I remember the blood everywhere, one of the maids, I actually saw her pick up the bit of flesh that they cut away 'cause she was mopping up the blood. There was blood everywhere."

Some 500 to 2,000 British schoolgirls will be genitally mutilated over the summer holidays. Some will be taken abroad, others will be "cut" or circumcised and sewn closed here in the UK by women already living here or who are flown in and brought to "cutting parties" for a few girls at a time in a cost-saving exercise.

Then the girls will return to their schools and try to get on with their lives, scarred mentally and physically by female genital mutilation (FGM), a practice that serves as a social and cultural bonding exercise and, among those who are stitched up, to ensure that chastity can be proved to a future husband.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jul/25/female-circumcision-children-british-law

---

Religious leaders promote their faiths as compassionate, and this is what they expect of females at times? Oh joy. (If you're going to church tomorrow, I hope I didn't ruin tomorrow's services by posting this.) But the bottom line is that there's no such thing as freedom to abuse others in the name of religion, I'm sorry.

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. That's OK, I'm sure it limits the possibility of disease later in life

:sarcasm:

(I shouldn't need that, but with all the pro-cutters on DU, I thought I'd better be safe)

[Fumesucker]

17. It is remarkable the difference in attitude when it comes to genital mutilation.

Indeed, just using the term "mutilation" offends some people.

[murdoch]

202. I underwent genital mutilation...

...but I'm a man, I don't count.

Of course this genital mutilation happened when I was too young to prevent it happening.

My parents are of no religious disposition to do this. I asked my father why he had them do this to me, and he said the doctor said I'd be "cleaner".

No, men can't be genitally mutilated, it's only the EVIL MUSLIMS who "genitally mutilate" people. How come no one complains about Muslim men being circumsized? Oh yaa, they do that to everyone in the USA.

At least mainland Europe is not as sick as the USA is and plenty of men at the gym shower I went to over there were unmutilated.

[Mariana]

24. It's probably cleaner, too, and looks better that way.

:sarcasm:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. I remind you all that the organ responsible for male sexual pleasure is NOT the foreskin. -nt

[Fumesucker]

44. And you need to be reminded that not all FGM entails clitoridectomy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

Yes, sewing the labia together seems to be slightly less barbaric.

Slightly.

[Foo Fighter]

104. Ah, but the woman isn't supposed to experience sexual pleasure.

Her sole purpose is to serve as a convenient penis receptable and sperm repository for the male. The woman should derive no pleasure from sex since, well, that would be just wrong.

[Touchdown]

157. And I remind you that you are dead wrong.

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/info/foreskin.html

[Cronus Protagonist]

192. Damn right! Anyone WITH a foreskin knows it is very sensitive

... and it provides a very pleasurable mechanical action beyond anything that a calloused glans and a scar can produce.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

221. And yet, somehow circumcised men are still able to have orgasms. -nt

[Touchdown]

225. In other words, a single violin is just as good as a symphony.

:eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

226. Let me reiterate: I'm not saying male circumcision is good or not detrimental to sexual pleasure.

I'm just saying that cutting off the clitoris or sewing the labia together are much, MUCH worse.

[Touchdown]

230. In that we agree. I do not agree that this is a contest of who's knife is worse.

:hi:

[SharonAnn]

234. Yes, cutting off the clitoris would be like cutting off the penis .

[HEyHEY]

205. sadly, I'll never know

:(

[proteus_lives]

48. It's sickening to compare FGM to male circumcision.

But you knew that already.

[Cronus Protagonist]

193. It's sickening to mutilate anyone's genitals, male or female

And what sickens me the most is the support here among liberals for male genital mutilation by apologists like yourself.

[proteus_lives]

198. You're hilarious.

So what, you circumcised and want to be a "victim"?

Fly to Britain, track down one of those poor girls and explain to her how you're as much a victim as she is.

:eyes:

[Touchdown]

203. Ok, look.

I tend to agree that FGM threads should be relatively free of the male counterparts, since the male threads are much more contentious, so I'll side with you that FGM threads are not a good time to discuss male infant cutting (I'm being charitable in the interest of not derailing this important topic), but the dismissive 'victim' accusation is what you used on me a month ago, so you are starting to become a one note.

Just sayin':hi:

[proteus_lives]

208. So you're agreeing with me and not agreeing with me?

He's not a victim and it's wrong for him to want to be considered one.

You know why.

[Touchdown]

214. I think he answered your question about victimhood himself.

I was just pointing out that you made the same assumption about me, and that not everything is as clear as it appears.

What I was agreeing with you on was that male infant circ as a topic should really stay out of FGM threads.

[Cronus Protagonist]

210. No, I have everything just the way nature intended

I am altruistic, perhaps, trying to do good to educate people about this barbaric act, sure... a victim of the cutters? Hell no.

[Name removed]

232. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

237. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

227. Actually, it is possible for two different forms of violence to be of different gravity.

Have you thought that might be the case?

[virgogal]

2. OMG. Just 1/2 hour ago I was reading Ruth Rendell's

mystery, "Not in the Flesh", and this terrible practice was being discussed.

What an awful thing it is.

[LiberalFighter]

3. Does the UK have laws against practicing medicine without a license?

If so prosecute the hell out of them all.

[awoke_in_2003]

8. Muslims are gaining

a lot of traction in Britain. Same will happen here, eventually, if we do not put ALL religions in their place.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Did you read the article? It's not about religion, it's about culture and social acceptance...

How can you come out with what you just said if you'd read the article?

[riderinthestorm]

36. Of course it's also about religion.

12 year old Jamelia is right out front with the rationale used to get her to comply: "I knew something was going to be cut. I was made to believe it was genuinely part of our religion."

And I would stipulate that this particular variety of patriarchal bullshit masking as "culture and social acceptance" must be stopped.

Cultural relativists who persist in defending this kind of shit are not doing women any favors.

[EmilyKent]

37. No, Christians do it as well.

It's purely cultural, not religious.

[riderinthestorm]

42. And Christianity isn't a religion? A patriarchal one at that as well?

I understand that there are many forces that combine to push mothers into performing FGM on their daughters, but to deny the religious component is being disingenuous at best.

[EmilyKent]

46. And where does christianity require FGM?

Nowhere.

No religion does. It's cultural, not religious.

[riderinthestorm]

56. The OP is about Islam. There are hadiths on FGM.

"Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband."

Since you are obviously uninformed about the Islamic basis for FGM, I'm not going to do your research for other religions.

[EmilyKent]

61. There is no requirement in either religion for it,

but both religions do it. It's cultural, not religious.

[texastoast]

68. Granted, there have been other cultures that have practiced it

But it has its roots in the Bedouin culture and is practiced almostly exclusively by Muslims today.

"FGM is not a religious practice required by the Islamic faith. It has, however, become a 'law by custom.'"

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/jc.htm


And it really has little to do with relgion.

It has to do with male dominance.

[EmilyKent]

70. And still do.

I'm sorry but Christians do this routinely as well, and it's women who practice it.

Blaming male religion is often correct, but not in this case.

[texastoast]

78. Please provide the cite for the count of Christian practictioners

who prformed FGM last year.

I looked. I can't find it. I would like to review your source.

[EmilyKent]

86. Ethiopia and Kenya practice it, and they are both

predominantly Christian.

Many Jews used to do it. It was going on long before any of our current religions even existed.

Googling it is easy.

On edit: Sorry, I meant to give sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm1.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm

[texastoast]

88. Reference please.

I want to know where you get this fact.

On DU, when someone asks for a cite, it is good manners to provide it.

[Hannah Bell]

130. will the UN do?

Type IV (referred to as "Mariam Girz" in Ethiopia) is practiced mainly in the Amhara region. These practices cross religious boundaries, including Christians, Muslims and Ethiopian Jews (Falashas).

Type IV:
Type IV includes the pricking, piercing or incision of the clitoris and/or labia. In Ethiopia the "Mariam Girz" involves blood letting with a sharp needle performed on girls with a stunted clitoris who are assumed to have been already circumcised by St. Mary.

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/docid/46d57877c.html


14.^ a b Obermeyer, Carla Makhlouf (March 1999). Female Genital Surgeries: The Known, the Unknown, and the Unknowable. 13. pp. 79–106. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0745-5194%28199903%292%3A13%3A1%3C79%3AFGSTKT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-3. Retrieved 2007-12-01.

"Regarding religious differences, it is now generally recognized that even though a number of the countries where female genital surgeries are found are predominantly Muslim, the practices are not prescribed by Islam and are, in fact, found among non-Muslim groups such as Coptic Christians of Egypt, several Christian groups in Kenya, and the Falasha Jews of Ethiopia.

In CDI, the prevelance is 80 percent among Muslims, 40 percent among those with no religion and 15 percent among Protestants, and in Sudan the prevalence is highest among Muslim women (DHS 1989-90).

In Kenya, by contrast, prevalence is highest among Catholics and Protestants compared with other religious groups (MYWO 1991). Thus, there is no unequivocal link between religion and prevalence. p.88".


True, FGM occurs in non-Muslim societies in Africa. And in Arab states such as Egypt, where perhaps 97 percent of girls suffer genital mutilation,<3> both Christian Copts and Muslims are complicit.

http://www.meforum.org/1629/is-female-genital-mutilation-an-islamic-problem


Kenya: Prevalence of female genital mutilation (FGM) in the Kikuyu tribe: age at which practised; consequences of refusal for grand-parents; availability of state protection
According to a Kenya Demographic Health Survey (1998), "42.5 per cent of Kikuyu women aged between 15 and 49 have been circumcised" (The Nation 5 Jan. 2000).

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/topic,463af2212,469f2e382,3ae6ad5e76,0.html

Kikuyu Religion and Culture

The Kikuyu tribe...is the largest ethnic group in Kenya, making up about 22% of the countries total population...Though today many Kikuyu have been converted to Christianity, their native religion is similar to that of the Masai and the Kamba. They worshipped a single God...

http://www.kenya-advisor.com/kikuyu-tribe.html.


And FGM is decreasing in Kenya. It is also illegal. But still more than one third of the women are circumcised and in some ethnic groups almost each and every young woman is subjected to the cut...

“Yes, they are Christian in church and then they do the opposite anyway”, says Grace. “They believe the girls will run with many men if they are not circumcised.”

http://womenontherun.se/node/42



Nonceremonial genital modification was briefly practiced in Western medicine as a medical treatment. Western physicians recommended the practice of removing the clitoris as a treatment for women with certain nervous and sexual problems in the nineteenth and early twentieth century (Hosken 1994). This was bolstered by a belief that masturbation could cause insanity. The practice did not continue, and genital modification was never adopted as a religious ceremony or as a routine operation for females in Western culture.

Read more: Circumcision - Female Circumcision - Gender http://family.jrank.org/pages/265/Circumcision-Female-Circumcision.html#ixzz0ugwmxytR

[Hannah Bell]

140. ...

Falasha (Ethiopic for "stranger") is the term by which the Jews of Ethiopia are commonly known: they refer to themselves as Beta Isra'el "House of Israel", never as aihud "Jews". Most have now left Ethiopia and live in Israel....In common with other religious groups, including Christians, they practised male and female circumcision on the eighth day after birth: the operation was performed by a woman....

http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/judaism/falash.html.

[texastoast]

229. Thank you. Finally.

And it is about having a pure female for a male, whether a religious or cultural practice.

"Heaven" forbid that a woman would enjoy sexual pleasure or perhaps carry the seed of some forbidden lover. It's about ensuring the male lineage. That's the bottom line with this insane practice.

[uppityperson]

89. Nope. Poor logic again, combined with no cite but "look it up yourself"

If you post an assertion, you are the one responsible for posting reputable link, otherwise it is simple opinion.

[EmilyKent]

92. Oh it's there.

You apparently couldn't wait 10 seconds for me to provide it.

[uppityperson]

96. bwahahahaha. You added it on edit and now complain that we didn't know you were going to edit

:eyes:

Now you say 2 minutes between original post and edit is "10 seconds". FAIL

[EmilyKent]

98. I hit 'post' before I was finished. I goofed.

I think some of you are, shall we say, hyper?

[uppityperson]

102. We can't read your mind, don't know you are going to edit, so you call us "hyper"?

tell us more

[EmilyKent]

105. You simply want to attack me as a poster,

not discuss the topic at all.

Since it was easy enough to learn about it before you attacked others.

[uppityperson]

110. I am attacking you by you calling me hyper for not mindreading you were going to edit?

whew.

[Occulus]

128. You still haven't done so.

Have you never assembled a bibliography?

[uppityperson]

100. Try again.

wiki isn't a reputable source.

Link 2 says "It is widely practiced in countries where the predominant religion is Christianity" and links its source to a forbidden webpage. Poor logic and no reputable link.

Link 2 has only this on Christianity: "FGM has probably been performed for at least 1,400 years (some references estimate 2,000 years), and started during what Muslims call "al-gahiliyyah" (the era of ignorance). The Qu'r'an, Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and Christian Scriptures (New Testament) is silent on the subject."

[EmilyKent]

103. If you can't read Kenya and Ethiopia

are predominently Christian, and yet practice this custom, you aren't prepared to listen or discuss at all.

[uppityperson]

107. Illogical.

Just because a major religion of a country is Christianity does not mean those Christians practice fgm. You have no link and poor logic.

[EmilyKent]

109. And you can't read urls apparently.

[uppityperson]

113. ooooo, another snide remark. I am stung, truly stung.

[Hannah Bell]

129. jews still do it.

Upon physical examination of the other group, Ethiopian Jews, which resides now in Israel and performed female genital mutilation in Ethiopia, 63% of the women, who all claimed to have been circumcised, did not even have a scar! 20% had scars, in 7%, one square centimeter of the labia minora was removed from beneath the clitoris and only 10% demonstrated a real and severe form of female genital mutilation, total amputation of the clitoris.

Grisaru N, Letzer S, Belmaker RH.
Ritual Female Genital Surgery Among Ethiopian Jews.
Arch Sex Behav 1997;26:211-5.

http://www.circumstitions.com/FGM-defined.html.

[snooper2]

217. Religion has to do with male dominance

And mutilation of young girls is just another part of that pattern...

[Nexus7]

116. Does it really effing matter?

The "Islamic" basis for genital mutilation? "Research" of religions?

It's all a bunch of politically-motivated BS.

[riderinthestorm]

123. If you don't understand how deeply entwined patriarchy and politics are meshed, do some research. nt

[Hannah Bell]

131. you read arabic, do you? so you can confirm that translation that you found on an anti-islam site

is a good one of some hadith that actually exists?

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=The+Prophet+said+to+her%3A+Do+not+cut+too+severely+as+that+is+better+for+a+woman+and+more+desirable+for+a+husband.%22&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=d67b007619a25c3e


The only link that's *not* a HATE SITE has this to say about it:

Those who advocate for FGM from an Islamic perspective commonly quote the following hadith to argue that it is required as part of the Sunnah or Tradition of the Prophet:

Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

This is known to be a "weak" hadith in that it does not meet the strict criteria to be considered unquestionable (classified as mursal, i.e. missing a link in the chain of transmitters in that none was among the original Companions of the Prophet.) In addtion, it is found in only one of the six undisputed, authentic hadith collections, that is in the Sunan of Abu Dawud (Chapter 1888). According to Sayyid Sabiq, renowned scholar and author of Fiqh-us-Sunnah, all hadiths concerning female circumcision are non-authentic.

Even if the words attributed to the Prophet were actually spoken by him, an analysis of the text itself reveals that he is making a statement that does not translate into an injunction for circumcision. Interestingly, many leading scholars of the four major Sunni schools of thought considered female circumcision to be at least recommended if not required. Yet we cannot ascertain from the hadith what type of circumcision was being performed or even which body part was being discussed. The scholars later specified in general terms that only a small piece of skin (the clitoris or its hood, presumably, or perhaps part of the labia minora) the size of a "cock's comb" (the small appendage that sits atop the head of a rooster) was to be removed. At the very least then, one can say that infibulation goes far beyond the description given here and so this hadith cannot be used to justify the more severe forms of mutilation. If a Muslim truly believes that female circumcision is part of the Sunnah, she or he wouldn't have enough detailed specifications to know how to carry out the procedure since the terms as mentioned above are so vague.

Despite the opinion of the scholars, female circumcision never became widespread among Muslims around the world and is essentially non-existent among the native inhabitants of Saudi Arabia and many other Muslim countries today. In contrast, male circumcision is universally practiced among Muslims; this is considered the continuation of a practice enjoined upon Abraham and his followers and is explicitly mentioned in several well-known sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

http://www.mwlusa.org/topics/violence&harrassment/fgm.html


so maybe you need to get better sources of information, as that dubious hadith appears to be one of the few justifications for the practice in doctrinal religious writing.

[Violet_Crumble]

188. Thanks for posting that. People should be more careful about sources for their 'info' n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

185. Only a small part of it. It'd still happen without any religion...

I would assume that most people took the time to read further than the first few lines. Clearly you didn't if you are trying to make out it's not about "culture and social acceptance" you want to educate people, it really helps to know what yr talking about on the subject.

Cultural relativists who persist in defending this kind of shit are not doing women any favors.

No-one at DU defends that practice, and if you'd read the article you'd realise that the people who are defending the practice are parents and family and society in some other countries.

[awoke_in_2003]

125. the culture is wrapped up...

in the religion.

[Hannah Bell]

133. which culture? which religion? islam? most muslims don't practice female circumcision.

[Violet_Crumble]

183. So you didn't read the article? See, if it was about religion...

..then it'd be a common practice in Indonesia, the most populous Muslim country in the world, but it's not. The reason for that is, as anyone who'd taken the time to read the article would know, is that the practice survives not because of religion, but because of societal expectations. Women who had it done to them want it done to their daughters because that's what happens in their families. At the end of the article, it talks about young women in one country voluntarily seeking out FGM for themselves because of their own beliefs that if they don't get it done they're unclean. It wouldn't matter if women were believers in a religion or not - it's patriarchal societal expectations, coupled with tradition (and don't try saying that tradition = religion coz it doesn't) and the absolutely mistaken belief by some parents that they're doing the right thing for their daughters by having it done to them....

[Hannah Bell]

132. baloney. it's a declining practice, & one not limited to muslims.

and most of the outrage is manufactured & has more to do with the us war on the islamic world & africa than anything else.

it's about ramping up the hate for the "enemy". incubator babies revisited.

the (japs, chinks, spics, huns, blacks) are gonna overrun us! hide the women!

[awoke_in_2003]

182. i do not single out islam...

I give every religion the same amount of respect- none.

[WinkyDink]

13. Prosecuting for an action done overseas?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

28. If you buy someone a plane ticket to their murder, which you arranged at the destination...

...will you not be prosecuted? Different crime, same situation.

Overseas, my ass. Prosecute those fuckers as hard as, or harder than, rapists.

[Withywindle]

115. Harder than, IMO.

Rape is fucking awful, but a rape survivor has a far better chance of regaining sexual function eventually. And the psychological aspects---well, how much worse are they for a little girl who was betrayed and violated and brutalized and her body permanently mutilated by women in her own family?

[uppityperson]

29. Yes. From OP...

The UK Prohibition of Female Circumcision Act 1985 makes it an offence to carry out FGM or to aid, abet or procure the service of another person. The Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003, makes it against the law for FGM to be performed anywhere in the world on UK permanent residents of any age and carries a maximum sentence of 14 years imprisonment

[texastoast]

4. WOMEN! Stop fucking allowing this!

What else can I say. I've heard the arguments written that "the West needs to be tolerant of other cultural beliefs and practices."

With this particular practice, FUCK NO, from this "Westerner."

WOMEN! Read your history, and I mean WAAAAAAAY back before the Indo-Europeans.

FUCK THIS KIND OF MALE-DOMINANCE BULLSHIT!

[alp227]

5. Y'know, when I think about "being tolerant of other cultural beliefs"

I think I draw the line whenever such beliefs involve the physical or mental harm of others, such as FGM in this case, or perhaps the full-face veil in Islam.

[LostinVA]

142. And what will happen to the women who refuse to do this?

You are putting the onus on the wrong parties. The men who decree this as necessary, and who punish the girls and women who refuse this, are the root of the problem, and the root needs to eb dealt with first.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

6. This makes me so damn angry.

In the name of God?

No way.

Male dominance is right.

It needs to stop.

[awoke_in_2003]

9. male dominance is the root

of all the major religions. In the past, christians had advanced a bit away from this, but they are headed right back in that direction.

[Fumesucker]

11. Eh, it was women doing the deed..

That's what I got from the post anyway, lots of women to hold the girl down.

I see your point but you seem to be giving the women in question a pass.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

12. You are quite right...I am giving the women a pass...

They are doing the deed because their religion tells them to.

Stopping those women won't stop the problem. They're really a symptom.

I'm not sure what the best way to get rid of this is...

:shrug:

[dogday]

184. I have a very hard time understanding how any woman who

has had to undergo this procedure could possibly be a party to holding another female down against her will to have this done. What goes through their minds? Are they so scared of the consequences of not conforming that they allow this to happen to someone else?

These women are scared shitless..

[snooper2]

218. they aren't scared shitless, they are brainwashed

starting from the day they are born...

[uppityperson]

219. +1

[HEyHEY]

206. yeah, but the men are doing it for religious purposes too

It's not a man/vrs woman thing so much as a religion vrs women thing. So happens this bit of religion is man-bullshit.

[EmilyKent]

15. I agree. It's women doing it.

For something like 10 centuries Chinese women broke their daughters feet to bind them. Toes, arches and heels.

I've never understood it.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

20. Small feet were seen as sexy.

And they walked in tiny steps, which was also seen as sexy.

Bizarre.

[EmilyKent]

22. Yes, so is genital mutilation.

So is our practice of inserting plastic balls, or injecting botox, or wearing 8" heels.

[texastoast]

30. Plastic surgery and fashion are VERY different from genital mutilation

How can you possibly compare the two?

Genital mutilation is practiced to ensure that a woman has no sexual pleasure, which makes her less likely to stray from her "husband" in most likely an arranged marriage.

[EmilyKent]

32. No, they are very much the same.

Women have internalized the view they have to 'please men.'

So whatever the current fashion is in their society, they go along with it.

And do it to their own daughters.

[snagglepuss]

49. That is ridiculous. Carving up a child's clitoris in a room of women pinning a child

to the floor is in no way similiar to plastic surgery. Your whataboutery is inane.

[EmilyKent]

50. Brainwash the child to do it

to herself then. Does that relieve the guilt?

[snagglepuss]

106. What guilt are you talking about?

[texastoast]

58. Absolutely not

Women who choose to wear 8-inch heels and get breast implants generally are not 7-12 years old.

[EmilyKent]

64. You've never seen beauty pageants

for toddlers have you?

Nor apparently are you aware of brainwashing, the same kind that allows little girls who have been through FGM to grow up and do it to their own daughters.

Footbinding for a thousand years.

[uppityperson]

69. women can take those 8" heels off when they want to. Can't do that with fgm

Look, I'll put those high heeled shoes on, then take them off.

Let's see you do that with fgm.

Physiologically and psychologically they are different though both do include brainwashing. To say they are the same is demeaning to those women who have suffered after fgm. It isn't the same.

[EmilyKent]

71. Pop out a breast then.

Er sorry, a plastic melon.

[uppityperson]

77. You cannot respond to being able to take off high heels, so try to distract with breasts.

fail.

[EmilyKent]

90. I mentioned all of them originally.

Fail.

[uppityperson]

94. women can take those 8" heels off when they want to. Can't do that with fgm

Physiologically and psychologically they are different though both do include brainwashing. To say they are the same is demeaning to those women who have suffered after fgm. It isn't the same.

[texastoast]

79. Agree. Fail. n/t

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[texastoast]

74. Yes, I have, and those little babies have their clits intact

I have relatives who LIVE to put their babies in pageants.

And in this country, they don't have to continue living with a permanent physical scar. Some turn bimbo, and some do not. Some tell their mothers that they want to continue being in pageants, and some become really good collegiate athletes and stop wearing makeup.

Women here who CHOOSE the 8-inch heels are FREE to do so. A 7 to 12-year-old with a bunch of women holding her down and mutilating her is VERY FUCKING DIFFERENT.

[EmilyKent]

95. But they have many other things done.

And they grow up to get massive amounts of plastic surgery done, because they've been trained since toddlerhood to do so.

Note in your statement you said 'WOMEN' holding her down.

Yes, and she'll do the same to her own daughter.

[Hannah Bell]

134. +1000. but that's supposedly their "free choice," though it's not "free" at all, but completely

culturally conditioned.

an ethiopian tribeswoman would shudder in horror at the thought of cutting one's face, peeling back the skin, & resewing it tighter to look "younger". it's barbaric.

same with cutting holes in one's belly and thighs & sucking out the fat.

similarly, breaking one's nose & then resetting it, or cutting into one's eyes to remove bags or make them look less "asian" or inserting plastic things into one's cheeks, chin, or cutting around the nipples of one's breasts and inserting plastic balloons.

women allow some of these things to be done to their teenage daughters.

barbaric, inhuman, disgusting.

[Dorian Gray]

139. Plus

the majority of people who have plastic surgery for cosmetic reasons CHOOSE to do so as adults. They aren't coerced by parental and cultural expectations.

[Hannah Bell]

195. yes, no cultural expectations involved whatsoever! completely free choice. lol.

i mean, everyone wants to look better, don't they? really, having your face cut open, the skin peeled back, then pulled tighter & sewn back together - minor little thing, really.

no cultural expectations involved at all.

[Dorian Gray]

211. There may be some cultural

pressure to look good, but the majority of our culture's families certainly don't plan plastic surgery parties for 12 year old girls as a coming of age, right of passage.

[riderinthestorm]

33. FGM is not about fashion, sexiness or to beautify the area. It's about control

It's about patriarchal control of women and their bodies, taken to the most grotesque extreme.

There are many levels of abuse towards women in any patriarchy but to compare FGM to wearing high heels is a disturbing reminder of the shameful degree of cultural relevance that many attempt to conflate with women's issues. I don't buy it in the least. Those that practice FGM are doing so to exert maximal control over their female population. That women perform the deed doesn't change anything. They've simply been "brainwashed" (for lack of a better word) co-opted within the patriarchy that this is necessary.

[EmilyKent]

Women do it to their own daughters.

It is not men doing this.

And yes, women are 'brainwashed' into plastic breasts, and high heels, and botox and all the other things western civilization considers natural and normal.

[riderinthestorm]

40. Women do it because they believe it's a religious requirement

first and foremost (Mohammed never outlawed the procedure, only advised that they don't cut "too much"). Secondly they do it because they want to control a woman's sexuality. That their mothers have bought into the patriarchal culture doesn't make it any better - it just means the cycle will perpetuate itself.

Religious dictates and controlling a woman's sexual pleasure by performing FGM on children, are very different than getting a botox injection and if you can't see the difference there's no sense in continuing the discussion.

[EmilyKent]

45. No they don't.

All religions in the country do it. It is a cultural practice, not a religious one.

Women could end it in ten seconds, so don't blame either men or religion for this.

Easy to attack others, not so easy to see it in yourself, eh?

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EmilyKent]

55. What ARE you talking about?

The topic is FGM, not you, nor is anyone attacking you!

I rather thought I was part of a discussion, I'm not looking at names. I don't even know anyone.

Is everyone here this sensitive?

[uppityperson]

72. Women COULD end it if they were educated and understood their true selves as equal partners.

that is about fgm and the women who partake.

"Easy to attack others, not so easy to see it in yourself, eh?" That is an untrue accusation "if you can't see the difference there's no sense in continuing the discussion. " is not an attack.

"Is everyone here this sensitive?" is.

[EmilyKent]

97. Yes, they could, but they don't.

And western society is as guilty as all other societies in perpetrating this nonsense.

People don't like facing this however, it seems.

[Hannah Bell]

137. women aren't "educated" enough even in the west, it seems.

bring those african & middle eastern women to the west & their daughters will eschew cliterectomies for boob jobs and lipo.

[Warren DeMontague]

190. You're not honestly making that comparison, are you?

Yes, some things are barbaric. And uneducated. Whatever it takes to end the practice, education, whatever- the important thing is to end it, everywhere, for good.

And comparing it to voluntary adult cosmetic surgery like lipo or boob jobs is just beyond fucking offensive.

[texastoast]

43. Because they want their daughters to be of a social standing to "achieve"

This is cultural and the women do it because the men expect it because of male dominant religious beliefs.

How in God's name can you and other posters on this thread possibly compare popular fashion to a mandated cliterectomy?

[EmilyKent]

47. Well since China had foot binding

for a thousand years, and yet had no 'male dominant religious beliefs', it's rather obvious it's cultural not religious.

[uppityperson]

73. The topic is FGM, not china foot binding. Poor logic there.

To say China foot binding was cultural means fgm has no basis in religion is very poor logic.

[EmilyKent]

83. I thought the topic was cultural biases against women.

My mistake.

However, since Christians also practice FGM means it's not a Muslim religious one.

[texastoast]

84. Waiting for that cite n/t

[uppityperson]

85. And there you go again. The best defense is a good offense.

To say China foot binding was cultural means fgm has no basis in religion is very poor logic.

You still haven't given a reputable link to "cite the count of Christian practitioners
who performed FGM last year."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8810294&mesg_id=8811085

"I'm sorry but Christians do this routinely as well".

Proof of that is needed.

[EmilyKent]

99. Already been given.

[uppityperson]

101. random word salad. No it hasn't.

[EmilyKent]

108. Yes it has, upthread.

[uppityperson]

111. no it hasn't, upthread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8810294&mesg_id=8811187

[Hannah Bell]

136. how can someone compare a mother giving her daughter a boob job for a sweet sixteen gift

to a cliterectomy?

simple. because they're both culturally conditioned acts which are physically hazardous & completely unnecessary.

but the woman paying for her daughter's boob job doesn't see how similar she is to the mother cutting her daughter's genitals.

[Dorian Gray]

212. How often does the 16 year old boob job happen, though/

I'm sure it has, but I don't know anybody who has gone through something like that at such a young age. And if I did, I'd think the people were whack and unnecessarily damaging their kids.

[Withywindle]

118. No, they are not the same.

I have no implants, no botox, and don't wear high heels very often.

No one has EVER held me down and imposed those things on me by force. Certainly not when I was a helpless child. Aside from maybe child-beauty-pageant participants (another custom I find fucked up beyond belief) do you really know anyone that has happened to? Ever?

[ismnotwasm]

75. This is NOT in the name of God

It's NOT in the Koran, it's flat out cultural-based misogyny that goes back a ways and these assholes still practicing it need to take credit were it's due, and not blame it on literature that a sizable percentage of these tortured young girls can't even read. Quite possibly a sizable percentage of the women who perform it on their daughters can't read it either--for a variety of reasons.

We need to help promote education within these communities

Like you say

It needs to stop

[ZombieHorde]

7. Extremely disturbing story. Scary and anger inducing. nt

[awoke_in_2003]

10. The "beauty" of bronze age beliefs...

note- this isn't just aimed as islam.

[AnArmyVeteran]

18. I would love to see all religion outlawed so man can evolve.

Religion is a manmade system to control the masses. And the ignorant and illiterate fall victim to religions all the time. If an all-knowing god wanted to spread his beliefs to this world why did he do it in ancient times by people who were virtual cavemen? And every religion I know of makes women look like possessions, and even in the Christian faith women are equated to farm animals and manservants (slaves) in the commandments.

Religion divides people more than any other manmade invention. No real god would dream up all the barbaric rules and rituals men perform. I've been to almost every 'brand' of church and each one was different, but they all 'claim' to be Christians. Nothing against Catholics, but when I went to their services it looked more like a chemistry class where the priest was pouring a liquid from one solid gold urn to another, and then back again. Give me a break. God didn't dream up all of those strange rituals, MAN did.

If I was around 2,000 years ago and started worshipping piles of garbage then people today would have churches which worshipped dumpsters. I'd love to see an end to the madness of religion and the end to the ignorance that draws people to it. Until then we will continue to have wars and killing in the name of 'god'.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

27. Has been tried; didn't work. Has to be education. -nt

[Foo Fighter]

122. "If I was around 2,000 years ago and started worshipping piles of garbage

then people today would have churches which worshipped dumpsters."

Spot on. There is so much truth in that statement it's actually a bit scary. But no scarier than what's actually going on today. Eliminate religion and war profiteering and how many wars would have been waged over the years? Probably none.

[awoke_in_2003]

126. "Religion is a manmade system to control the masses"

very well said. From "The Brothers Karamazov"- "If god did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him" (although I disagree with this premise, it is the first statement to make me question my beliefs)

[AnArmyVeteran]

144. My Grandfather said religion was invented to control the masses.

He was a genius. He was a sculpture, carpenter, poet, engineer, writer, songwriter and a great dancer.

[Number23]

14. Good Lord. That poor child

Glad to see that disclaimer about "distressing and disturbing images" on the video. Not that I would have watched it anyway...

[Brickbat]

19. Just because it's culture doesn't mean it should be accepted or respected.

I hate that this is still an issue. In the twenty-first goddamn century.

[distantearlywarning]

21. This makes me absolutely sick.

I can't believe this is still happening in 2010, anywhere in this world.

Totally disgusting. :puke:

[Alcibiades]

23. That video was disturbing

Particularly the image of the girl whose labia had been sewn up and had grown together. Just unimaginably sick.

[CoffeeCat]

25. I feel so sorry for these young girls...

I can't imagine the horror, terror and pain they endure.

This is torture. It is abuse. It is sickening.

I'd like to slap all of those women who stand their complicit--holding these young
girls down as they are carved and screaming. You would think that after enduring
such pain and trauma---that they would want their own children to avoid the same fate.

Religion IS the opiate of the masses and unfortunately the women who propagate this
sick practice need to sober up.

[superconnected]

31. And then they will do it to their own daughters. Musn't forget that part.

If only the gov could arrest their parents when they get back and put them in prison. But it a appears to be a law they are 100% not enforcing.

"The UK Prohibition of Female Circumcision Act 1985 makes it an offence to carry out FGM or to aid, abet or procure the service of another person. The Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003, makes it against the law for FGM to be performed anywhere in the world on UK permanent residents of any age and carries a maximum sentence of 14 years imprisonment. To date, no prosecutions have been made under UK legislation."
.
.
.
"But Hussein has vowed that she will be the last generation of women in her family to suffer.

"It was my husband who said on our honeymoon, 'We are not going to do this thing to any child of ours.' I was quite shocked, I hadn't questioned it. But I now realise a lot of men are not in favour of FGM, not when you tell them the woman is not going to enjoy herself."

-------------
the guy has to decide to break the chain? Brilliant... not! I don't think a woman this dumb should be allowed to have kids. Sorry but after being put through it and crying about it, she wasn't questioning it for her daughters? I'm sorry she plans on breeding. Thank Goodness her husband isn't an idiot.

[texastoast]

34. What is the balance between human rights versus freedom of religion?

I think a fine balance would be that if you want a cliterectomy, you have to be of legal adult age to consent. But of course, that's not the point of this idiocy. Heaven forbid that "little girls" could experience sexual pleasure. Those abusive adults think that they have a better chance to direct their daughters' thoughts away from sexuality if they do it by or before the onset of menses.

Stupid parents, thinking that puberty is the gateway to sexual pleasure.

[superconnected]

35. My problem is that women of all people are continuting it.

I mean, they live in the UK. I don't believe the mother was that ill informed. You can see with the woman in the article that regardless of what she was put through, she didn't question not doing it for her own daughters. WTF!

[texastoast]

39. Did you read the article?

Good girls are non-sexual girls. If you have a clit, you are subject to sexual feelings, and will be less likely to "achieve" in that cultural frame.

It is sexist bigoty in their thought patterns and it us male dominant religious crap in a really horrible form.

[jah the baptist]

38. Hopefully BP will get some offshore leases in exchange. nt

[uppityperson]

41. wtf?

[jah the baptist]

51. well apparantly that was worth letting the lockerbie bomber go free

did i really need the drippy sarcasm thingy for that?

[uppityperson]

53. wtf (take 2)?

random words

[jah the baptist]

57. well now i must ask wtf?

do you not know that story?

they let the fucker go in exchange for BP drilling rights off the Libyan coast. I was suggesting it was another example of the selling of the UKs laws for wealth.

It was a sarcastic critisism of Number 10 Downing.

[uppityperson]

60. They let someone who did female genital mutiliation go for Bp drilling rights off Libyan coast?

How is stopping fgm "selling of the UK's laws for wealth"?

[jah the baptist]

62. No, the Lockerbie guy in prison in Scotland. nt

[uppityperson]

65. What does that have to do with fgm?

unless the Lockerbie guy in prison in Scotland did fgm?

[jah the baptist]

67. i give up nt

[uppityperson]

76. perhaps more than a few cryptic words might help.

too much time texting leads to poor communication skills.

[jah the baptist]

117. you have a point

i will try to be more clear in the future

[Withywindle]

54. This is just not OK. It never has been OK and it never will be.

I think countries that have this as a growing problem need to ENFORCE strict laws against it. As in, jail time for anyone who participates in this.

It is not a matter of "culture" or "assimilation." It's not a matter of traditional language or food or clothing or music or non-violent religious observance. But the UK and other countries are certainly within their rights--and their responsibility, IMO--to draw a line somewhere, and I think traumatic mutilation of children is an excellent place to draw it.

And for the record (pre-emptively), yes, I hate male circumcision of infants too, and no, ear piercing of small children is NOT comparable.

[EmilyKent]

59. I'll agree with that.

The mutilation of children, either mentally or physically, should never be allowed.

My point is that it's easy to point fingers at others and call them barbaric, but it's all of a piece really. They consider us barbaric.

Perhaps it's time we all stopped.

[distantearlywarning]

148. Our barbarism in no way excuses the barbarism of others.

Saying "we're just as bad" (whether true or not) is not an acceptable response to the horrors of this practice, from you, or those who torture and mutilate little girls, or anyone else.

[riderinthestorm]

63. There are more than a few on DU who don't want any examination or discussion of any cultural "lines"

in western cultures.

[EmilyKent]

66. Well then why didn't you just say so?

I was unaware this was solely an 'attack Muslims as barbarians' thread.

I thought it was a discussion on all cultures and how they affect women.

[Withywindle]

80. I'm not interested in attacking Muslims per se.

Not all Muslims do this. It's not in the Qur'an.

This map shows lots of very large Muslim countries where it's not that common. It's really only the law of the land in a handful of countries in Africa and prevalent only in a few others.



(here's the web site it comes from: http://www.circumstitions.com/Maps.html#fgm)

The really shameful thing is the huge number of countries that haven't made it illegal yet.

[uppityperson]

82. Here is the key to that map.

[Withywindle]

87. Thanks!

I forgot that. :blush:

[uppityperson]

91. no problem, good map, thanks.

[Withywindle]

93. To me, it seems like the tradeoff should be able to be made clear and enforced.

"You want the greater economic opportunity of a Western country? OK, great. Welcome! But you need to understand that if your daughter lives here too, she gets to keep her clitoris, because that's what our law is. We don't think that's too much to ask. If you do, there's the door."

[WildEyedLiberal]

233. + 1 trillion

It saddens me that many on the left, both here and in Europe, are so easily cowed by misguided notions of "multiculturalism" or "acceptance." There are some things that a civilized society absolutely must NOT accept - the stoning (or similar "honor killing") of "adulterers" and the ritual mutilation of genitals being two no-brainer examples. I also find it absurd and sad how desperately so many seem to want to deflect ANY attention away from misogynistic barbarism committed by "other" cultures and instead focus on how "we" are "just as bad" - witness the absurd invocation of stiletto heels and toddler beauty pageants in this thread. Really? I've managed to become a grown woman in America, and no one has ever FORCED me to wear anything I didn't want to wear. In fact, I frequently wear clothing that you'd never find in any "fashion" magazine or runway or on a popular celebrity actress. And yet, I've never been punished for this. I've never even been ridiculed for it. Tell me again how stilettos and plastic surgery are AT ALL comparable to forcing a girl (or, hell, a woman - as if this practice would somehow be less barbaric if it were performed on 18 years olds who could "consent") to have her genitals destroyed?

[EmilyKent]

112. I was unaware this was purely a Muslim-bashing thread!

I mistook it for an honest discussion on various cultural practices dealing with women.

My apologies!

Carry on.

[uppityperson]

114. Strawman.

[riderinthestorm]

120. +1. nt

[Hannah Bell]

138. the muslim-bashing intent is obvious in the op. as is the poster's other offering this eve.

[uppityperson]

158. Yeah, this one is soooooo muslim-bashing.

James E. Akins, Envoy to Saudi Arabia, Dies at 83
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8808828&mesg_id=8808828

[Withywindle]

119. Did you miss my post above where I put up a map that shows that MOST Muslim countries don't do this?

As far as I'm concerned, it's not Muslim-bashing. But it is specifically about the practice of slicing up little girls' vulvas.

Which is something that most Muslims don't do, and other peoples besides Muslims do. There's no basis for it in the Qur'an (except a verse advising not to cut too harshly--which means, HELLO, this was obviously a practice that predated Islam, or else why would there be any mention at all of it in Islam's FOUNDING text?)

I am against slicing up little girls' vulvas. Sorry. I don't care where the thin justification comes from. That's what this thread is about--not about whether it SHOULD be stopped, but how is the best way to do so?

I think deflecting it to Western women coveting high-heeled shoes because of fashion magazines is completely derailing from the real horror of the original topic. When it's widespread for 10-year-old Western girls to be forcibly held down by their mothers and aunts and have crude breast implants cut into their chests, hacking off their nipples, without anesthesia, then we'll talk about fashion angst as something comparable, but not til then, OK.

[uppityperson]

124. +++1

[Withywindle]

127. Thanks! (warning, graphic but relevant images in this post)

I understand there are social pressures on Western American women to do all sorts of unhealthy things in the name of beauty--but I don't think that discussion really belongs in a thread that's about things done to children against their will.

I...actually kind of wonder about these women's future in a Western country. Western straight/bi men and lesbians/bi women, answer me this...you're about to go down on your new girlfriend for the first time, and what you find when she pulls her panties (knickers, for you Brits) down is...the scar-tissue-laden results of these pictures (which are very clinical and do not show the blood and infection and pain and lifelong difficulty menstruating and urinating and intercourse and giving birth). Would you know how to give her pleasure? Would it be possible? Would you be grossed out? I am a bi woman, and if I saw that my partner's vulva looked like the results of 2 or 3, I think I would probably burst into tears on sight:



Genital cutting is in part a way to make sure these young girls will only ever succeed with partners who uphold those "values" and so perpetuate the pain onto the next generation (if they live long enough to birth one).

[Hannah Bell]

141. there was no reason whatsoever to post that picture. everyone here knows the arrangement

of women's genitals & everyone can understand the process.

no purpose but to inflame.

& it's bullshit. if most women who were circumcised couldn't bear children or died before they came of age, the custom would have died out. along with the culture & its practioners. duh.

[uppityperson]

145. She never said what you say is "bullshit"

"blood and infection and pain and lifelong difficulty menstruating and urinating and intercourse and giving birth" is common after some types fgm.

Posting "(warning, graphic but relevant images in this post)" wasn't enough warning for you? Not everyone understands the process and posting a diagram, posting clear concise information has "no purpose but to inflame"? Showing people, who you say "understand the process" what it is via a diagram is only to inflame?

I agree with you that "it's bullshit".

[Hannah Bell]

150. did anyone ask for a diagram? did anyone ask for an explanation?

is there anyone on this board who doesn't already know (from the interminable previous discussions, at the least) the basics of what the process is?

posted to inflame.

would you like to explain how a culture/practice can survive if it kills most women or renders them unable to have children?

you wouldn't know bupkis about it if the US weren't having a war on (muslim) terror.

[uppityperson]

152. Posting a diagram of what the topic is about is only to "inflame".

The only one inflamed about it seems to be you.

You have no clue about what I know or why I know it.

[Hannah Bell]

153. the topic isn't about how female circumcision is done. no one asked for an explanation or diagram.

everyone on this thread seems to be quite well informed about what the practices are.

it was entirely gratuitous.
you have no idea about what i know or how i know it either. so what?

[uppityperson]

154. No one asked you to chime in either.

people discuss things on this forum, they add diagrams and maps and links to here and there.

You poor guy.

[Hannah Bell]

159. your concern is noted. posting the diagram was gratuitous. that's one of the things discussed on

this forum.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

167. Disagree. The diagram (not picture) makes clear what is being discussed

Most people in the US have bought into the idea that it is purely cultural and have no idea what is actually done and that it is standard practice for parts of islam.

[Violet_Crumble]

186. If you'd bothered to read the article in the OP, you'd know FGM is a cultural and societal practice.

I realise this tends to upset and offends American anti-Muslim types possibly more than FGM upsets them (after all, I've seen discussions on US based forums where there's exclusive focus on having a go at Muslims and Islam rather than any real desire to understand and educate others about FGM)...

[uppityperson]

156. And I quote you (unless you edit again) "you wouldn't know" nt

[Hannah Bell]

163. no idea what you're talking about. here's some gratuitous imagery, the work of the "advanced" west

[Withywindle]

180. No, they don't realize it.

People may not know that there are several types of procedures done, some more extreme than others. I posted the most clinical image I could find.

[Hannah Bell]

209. yes, they do -- because everybody on this thread has an opinion, & no one asked for a description.

so either they're spouting off without knowing what they're talking about, or they know.

at any rate, no one asked for an explanation.

[TroglodyteScholar]

196. I found it helpful. n/t

[WildEyedLiberal]

235. What, does the actual reality of female genital mutilation make you uncomfortable?

Do you also think we shouldn't post pictures of war victims, because "everyone knows what war looks like"?

I really find myself questioning why you're apologizing for FGM so very much in this thread.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

178. The problem does not follow national borders since the islamic sects don't

So its not nearly that neatly boxed and divided. Look at the OP, UK is not an islamic nation and yet it is going on there.

[distantearlywarning]

147. Minus 100000. :-(

An honest discussion on various cultural practices dealing with women?

It's fucking torture and it's misogynistic bullshit, not "various cultural practices dealing with women".

And personally I could care less who practices it, but let's not be dishonest in our descriptions of what we're talking about here.

Cultural relativism: it's what makes the left look stupid and evil.

[WildEyedLiberal]

236. "Cultural relativism: it's what makes the left look evil and stupid"

Sadly agreed :( And it's why I loathe it SO very much - because I HATE having debates with rightwingers derailed by their not-inaccurate indictments of a certain school of "leftist" thought that so often finds ways to make mealy-mouthed excuses for barbarities perpetrated by non-Western, non-white cultures. I'm a liberal because I believe in the equality of every PERSON - which means that I cannot believe in the equality of cultures that do not also advocate the equality of persons.

[seabeyond]

189. because people are disgusted, outraged, angered by this custom, it is bashing muslims? wrong. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

121. I've seen people here argue that this practice deserves "cultural respect", and in another thread

argue that it should be illegal for Americans to eat cheesecake filled pancakes at IHOP.

Honestly, very little surprises me anymore, around here.

[Touchdown]

162. I remember that thread.

IIRC that poster was equating a farmer not being allowed to cut his daughter with the possibility of losing his farm or some BS like that.

[Hannah Bell]

135. that's two anti-muslim posts for you tonight. most muslims don't practice female circumcision. fyi.

[snagglepuss]

143. Your opinion is obviously not based on facts. Different Islamic schools

of thought have different views on FGM. For example, according to Shaafi school of law female circumcision is obligatory for women which is why it is widespread in Egypt, Iran and among Iraqi Kurds. The Hanafi school OTOH does not share that opinion so FGM is rare amongst Syrian Kurds and Turks. Also there are different types of FGM, in Indonesian for example most girls undergo what is referred to as ritual nicks.

[Hannah Bell]

146. most muslims don't practice female circumcision. ritual nicks included. period.

[snagglepuss]

149. You are clearly uninformed. Places where Shaafi is predominant, the

majority of Muslim women are mutilated. For example in Iraqi Kurdistan it is estimated that at least 74% of women are genitally mutilated. Statistics simply do not support your position.


http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/world.php

[Hannah Bell]

151. blah blah blah. kurdistan is a minute fraction of the world's muslims.

Top 10 Largest National Muslim Populations

Indonesia 170,310,000
Pakistan 136,000,000
Bangladesh 106,050,000
India 103,000,000
Turkey 62,410,000
Iran 60,790,000
Egypt 53,730,000
Nigeria 47,720,000
China 37,108,000


The majority of the world's muslims live in asia.

[snagglepuss]

155. You obviously didn't bother to review the statistics that I posted.

Furthermore, Islam is not monolithic so stop referring to it as such. In countries where Shaafi Muslims are predominent, FGM is widely practiced.

[Hannah Bell]

160. female genital cutting of any type is not a practice of most muslims. period.

[uppityperson]

165. And should those ones that do be allowed to do it?

Should anyone, of any religion or not, that does this be allowed to?

[snagglepuss]

168. What a joke. Your repition doesn't make something a fact. The fact, the

hard, cold fact is that FGM is widespread in countries following the Shaafi school of Islam.

[Hannah Bell]

169. most muslims don't practice female circumcision or genital cutting. period.

that's why you & your buds keep talking about "schools" of islam.

shafi being one school within the sunni branch which is itself only one branch of islam.

[snagglepuss]

170. Most Muslims following Shaafi school do mutilate females. And stop lumping all Muslims

together. Don't you know that Islam is not a monolithic religion?

[Hannah Bell]

173. most muslims don't. i didn't make any claim about any school of islam.

so stop being so disingenuous.

[uppityperson]

179. And should those ones that do be allowed to do it?

[Warren DeMontague]

191. Anybody got a link to the Jeopardy music?

:shrug:

apparently, it's just the same as a "boob job or lipo" :crazy:

[Hannah Bell]

194. should george bush & barack obama "be allowed" to kill more muslims than female circumcision ever

has? should they "be allowed"? huh?

wtf is this "be allowed"? who are *you* to them?

you want to go drop a bomb on them to stop them circumcising their kids?

just what do you want, exactly?

[uppityperson]

197. Ah, so you think it ok to force fgm on children. Thank you for making it clear.

[Hannah Bell]

199. i said no such thing, nor did you ask that question. nor did you answer my question.

[uppityperson]

216. Since you refuse to answer the question I've asked 3 times, you obviously do

Since you have refused to answer this "And should those ones that do be allowed to do it?" only trying to distract, you obviously do. Since you have never typed "no", and only bring up unrelated crap, it sure looks like you do.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8810294&mesg_id=8813927
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8810294&mesg_id=8813297
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8810294&mesg_id=8813684

[Warren DeMontague]

200. What I would be looking for, there, is the word "no".

As in, "no", they should not be able to do it. As in, "no", it should not be tolerated as acceptable behavior in any nation on this planet, any more than slavery is. Any more than other forms of child abuse should be.

Two little letters. One word. "No".

Bringing up other, unrelated shit is not answering the question.

[uppityperson]

171. And should those ones that do be allowed to do it?

Do you agree that it is ok?

[Crunchy Frog]

166. Most of Muslim Asia consists of Indonesia and Malaysia

in which a (very mild) form of female genital cutting is pretty much universal. I don't condemn them for it because it's far less severe than what is customarily done to baby boys in this country.

A couple of examples:
http://my-little-princess.blogspot.com/2007/12/i-am-2-months.html

http://aandes.blogspot.com/2010/04/circumcision.html

[Hannah Bell]

172. not "near universal" at all:

FGM is also found among some Muslim groups in Indonesia, where the most common form is type IV, also known as 'incision'. This involves some form of symbolic pricking, scraping or touching of the clitoris.

In Malaysia, among a very small number of Muslims in rural areas, the procedure carried out is much more ritualistic. It includes a symbolic prick, a tiny ritual cut to the clitoris, or a blade being brought close to the clitoris.

http://www.irinnews.org/IndepthMain.aspx?IndepthId=15&ReportId=62462.

FGM is also found among some ethnic groups in Oman, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen, as well as in parts of India, Indonesia, and Malaysia.

http://www.path.org/files/FGM-The-Facts.htm.

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

174. what's funny is to see all the progressives doing the five-minute hate.

[distantearlywarning]

175. You never answered the question upthread about whether you think it's ok.

Being a cultural apologist for this kind of practice is nearly as disgusting as the practice itself.

[Hannah Bell]

222. i don't answer disingenuous loaded questions posed by disingenuous,

straw-man flinging posters.

[uppityperson]

223. Do you think FGM is ok is a "disingenuous loaded question"? Aside from your insult

what the fuck?

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

187. I'd take anything said about Islam by you and that other poster with huge grains of salt...

When it comes to Islam itself, I'd no more take for granted what people say who have had posts deleted here in the past for making nasty comments about Muslims than I'd take the word on Judaism from someone who has had posts deleted for making nasty comments about Jews.

What exactly is an 'islamic apologist'? People who take issue at a serious issue like FGM being taken and turned into some sort of hobby-horse for some to peddle their intolerance of Muslims and Islam? They're the people who actually are liberal, progressive and feminist.

I suggest you take the time to read the article in the OP...

[Dorian Gray]

213. Of course they don't.

However, the fact that this is illegal in the UK, yet still goes on there is problematic. And it is going on within one rigid and fundamental community. I do not believe that they should be attacked or kicked out, but I do think the practice is illegal and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. (And I was pissed off about the Burquini banning at public french pools.) My feelings have nothing to do with anti-Islamic sentiment. I think doing this to a child is reprehensible. As would giving a child a boob job or a nose job. You shouldn't do that to children.

[Touchdown]

161. It never ends. These perverts will continue to do this because

their religion justifies it. They do it because it's a fetish and to have control over girls/women, but the justification is always an ancient, cultural rite of barbarism based on a deity that chose to show no proof of his existence.

It's always about of control and power. There is no other reason to butcher children's genitals. Tradition, appearance, cleanliness, religious sanctification are nothing but excuses, and they always will be.

[SoCalDem]

176. Fundamentalist religion trumps nationality..n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

181. what a monsterous tradition

[Touchdown]

201. For crying out loud! How can FGM be controversial on this site?

Whether it's religion based or tribal/cultural, it's barbaric and needs to be stopped!

Geez, I can understand the rancor with infant male circumcision topics in DU (and I'm a rather vocal, and often times loosely hinged combatant), but this one we should all at least come to a foregone consensus. Who cares if it's religious based or not? It's brutality! Girls are being brutalized. Women are permanently harmed. There is no science, pseudo science, or any other rational thing that can be said to defend this.

[HEyHEY]

207. I was thinking the same thing... best to back away slowly and let them eat each other

[lukasahero]

215. Best, most rational, post in the thread

:yourock: :applause:

And - thank you.

[distantearlywarning]

220. But, but, but...

How dare you tell someone else what they should be doing with their wonderful cultural norms, you evil American-child-beauty-pageant-nose-jobs-for-every-10-year-old-loving Muslim basher, you??? Don't you know that everything anyone decides to do is just fine so long as it's ostensibly for a cultural/religious reason and so long as western cultures aren't perfect yet? Actually, I'm thinking about taking some slaves myself. The Bible says it's ok, and I know that *true* progressives wouldn't want to interfere with my religious/cultural practices. Also, some people in America are working for peanuts at Wal-Mart, so it's not like anyone would have the right to criticize my slave ownership or anything.

:sarcasm:

In all seriousness, I wish I were surprised that this is a controversial topic, but I have seen so much unbelievable crap on DU in the last two years that this kind of thing just makes me sad now. I honestly don't think there's anything so disgusting and heinous that some poster on this site wouldn't defend it. I think our only saving grace is that the percentage of misguided assholes is at least somewhat lower here than at Freeperville etc.

[riderinthestorm]

231. +1. I don't have the time or energy to even get into it anymore with cultural relativists.

That's what it is, trying to bend over backwards to accommodate someone's cultural (religious, tribal, etc.) beliefs because in the amorphous "west", it's "bigoted" to dare to challenge a person's barbaric, misogynistic practices.

[HEyHEY]

204. I can't even read this, it's just too gory.

[vanbean]

224. Some people are sickening, eh?

[truebrit71]

228. Any parent that does that should be done under U.K. law..

..but I doubt the govt has the stones to do anything remotely close to that..