On The Pragmatism of Woodchucks and Groundhogs

[MineralMan]

This spring, a woodchuck appeared in my backyard. Some here call them groundhogs, but I'm not from here, so I call 'em woodchucks. Anyhow, it's apparently living behind my garage, and seems to appear early in the morning.

Now, woodchucks/groundhogs are in the squirrel family. In fact, they and their close relatives, the marmots, are the largest squirrels. So, since they're squirrels, despite not climbing trees, I started an experiment. I put some peanuts in the shell in a spot where the woodchuck would certainly pass on its morning perambulations. I'm sure this woodchuck had never encountered a peanut before.

What would he or she do? Would it turn up its nose at the peanuts or investigate and nibble one. If it had a fixed viewpoint as to what was food and what was not, I assume it would simply pass this strange item by. I mean, why would it bother to investigate something it didn't recognize?

To my surprise, my woodchuck stopped at the peanuts, sniffed them, then, very much like a squirrel, picked one up between its front paws and disassembled it so it could eat the protein-rich nuts on the inside. When faced with an unfamiliar food item, the woodchuck's pragmatism took over and it took a chance on it. Luckily for the pragmatic woodchuck, it found something worthwhile inside.

Now, I'm going to see if I can coax this shy animal into taking peanuts from my hand and getting skritched between the ears, as I do with the squirrels in my yard. Let's see just how flexible this pragmatic, toothy rodent can be.

Moral: Pragmatism often leads to good things. Food is food, whether it's familiar to you or not.

[Beetwasher]

1. I Think You're Trying To Say That Your Woodchuck Is Smarter Than Some DU'ers

I'd have to agree.

[SidDithers]

9. +1...nt

Sid

[MineralMan]

11. I'm pretty sure woodchucks aren't all that smart, but they

know what food is, to paraphrase Forrest Gump.

[Beetwasher]

17. And I Still Stand By My Interpretation

There are DU'ers, at this very moment, starving at their computers with a perfectly good bag of peanuts right within reach. :evilgrin:

[yurbud]

23. for that analogy to work, it would have to be a tenth of a peanut inside a shell filled with tar

and we'd have to pay the peanut farmer whatever he demanded.

[Beetwasher]

27. Still Smarter

And it's not my anology.

[yurbud]

24. or it's more like the DLCers are giving us cigarette butts and calling it food

since tobacco is a plant and many plants are food.

[Beetwasher]

29. Tomacco

Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

[truedelphi]

208. I guess if you put some catsup on it you'd have a balanced meal.

Ronnie Reagan used to do those cigarette commercials in which doctors recommended cigarettes, and then under his Administration, catsup ended up being declared a vegetable.

[Hello_Kitty]

226. And then saying we're "fucking retarded" for pointing out that cigarette butts aren't food. eom

[HughMoran]

62. +77

[MineralMan]

94. Hey! Dude! You got any peanuts for a pragmatic woodchuck?

:rofl:

[HughMoran]

109. Never thought of feeding the little chuck. It makes mowing my lawn a real chore

Like riding on a mountain range - not unlike trying to have a pragmatic discussion here ;)

[MineralMan]

137. Yes, they do burrow. Fortunately, the one in my yard has chosen

a spot behind the garage to burrow and hasn't done any digging in my lawn. I call what grows in my back yard a lawn, only because it is green and contains some grass. I mow it, too, which also qualifies it as a lawn, I suppose. In the early spring it is a field of dandelions. Just now, it's a field of clover, with some wild violets and plaintains for effect. A weekly mowing, though, makes it look more or less like a lawn, as long as you don't get too close. :rofl:

[HughMoran]

143. Mine has wild strawberries and mint growing on it

So there :P

Why do woodchucks have to hide underground while creating depressions that trip me up?

[MineralMan]

145. Wild strawberries? You dog.

Maybe I'll try planting some in my lawn. That would be most excellent. I'm not sure they'd survive our winters, though, but it's sure worth a try.

[HughMoran]

147. They make tiny little berries that smell nice when I mow them - lol

...and the mint smells wonderful - well kind of - it's peppermint and is a bit overpowering at times.

[MineralMan]

150. Try eating those tiny berries. They are the best strawberries on

the planet. Fraises des bois!

[HughMoran]

152. I've always wanted to try them, but they're so small and I never seem to catch them

when they are ripe.

[havocmom]

96. Or, conversely, that: pragmatism pays peanuts

One is wise to look at something from many angles. Prudent, pragmatic, potato, pahtato.....

[laughingliberal]

+1000 nt

[MineralMan]

140. Very nicely played, indeed.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

193. You're enjoying this whole Chuckles brouhaha, aren't you?

:evilgrin:

[MineralMan]

206. I enjoy almost everything. It keeps me sane.

I recommend it.

[Beetwasher]

169. Ooooh! Yes! There's The EEEEVIL Pragmatism Word!!!

EEEEVILLLL!!!! :rofl:

[havocmom]

194. Ah, the topic in OP's subject line....

Isn't that the point of discussion? Here,let me help you up. You seem to have tripped over something.

[Beetwasher]

196. I Know!! He Used An EEEVILLL!! Word In His OP!!!!

EEEEVILLL!!!! :rofl:

[meegbear]

2. My! What a sensible post!

[MineralMan]

12. Thank you, very much.

[LWolf]

3. Oh, Chuckles disagrees.

That woodchuck is obviously one of the lazy unemployed. He didn't WORK for those peanuts. He shouldn't be getting handouts.

It's not pragmatic to waste valuable resources on the lazy unemployed. Or those pesky retired people who quit their jobs and don't want to work for a living.

[MineralMan]

13. Oh, the woodchuck will end up working for them, overcoming his

fears to let me skritch him on the head. Food is an important training method.

[LWolf]

20. Oh! Well, training is different.

That's how we manage voters, too, you know.

I've got a load of rock chucks and pack rats and rabbits I can send your way since you are training them.

[Greyhound]

4. Oh my, how very subtle.

:rofl:
:kick: & U

[MineralMan]

14. Thanks!

[Oregone]

5. Yeah, well I once saw two horses fucking

Im not sure that means anything, but give me an hour or two, and Ill come up with a few paragraphs about why everyone needs to think exactly like I do

[MineralMan]

28. I look forward to reading your horse fable.

Just because the woodchuck ate a few peanuts, though, doesn't mean that it's going to stop eating other food, I imagine. It's just discovered a new one.

[HughBeaumont]

6. Whole lotta prose about a random animal selected to portray a centrist cartoon character.

All I know is that my old boss DID look like a woodchuck with glasses. And often not a very sensible one.

[MineralMan]

15. Woodchucks, in the guise of groundhogs, are reputed to be

great predictors of weather changes, though. I'm not sure that reputation is deserved, but there it is.

[Edweird]

7. Cute story but a bizarre fable.

[Ikonoklast]

10. Branches from rotten old elm trees fall on woodchucks all the time.

Squashes 'em under reality.


How's that for an obscure fable?

[MineralMan]

25. Not many elm trees in Minnesota any more.

The Dutch Elm Disease went through the state like a wildfire. The woodchucks are safe from that here, pretty much. The elm tree is all but extinct here.

Now, it's the ash trees that are being decimated by the Emerald Ash Borer.

[Edweird]

26. So the wages of pragmatism is death?

[MineralMan]

30. Not for the woodchuck/groundhog.

He's found a new food source.

[Edweird]

33. I'm an animal lover and I certainly appreciate what you are doing.

Fear of predators is a survival instinct.


http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/easterly98.html

[MineralMan]

38. No veggies in my yard, unless dandelions are veggies.

I know some people eat them, but not I. As for the recipes at that link, I think I'll pass. Once I get the little feller to eat from my hand, it would be awfully hard to make a meal of it. Thanks for the link, though.

[SidDithers]

166. Must be where all the tombstones under the elm tree came from...nt

Sid

[MineralMan]

16. Aesop I'm not.

He had mad fable-writing skillz.

[dtexdem]

8. How much ground would a groundhog hog ...

if a ground hog would hog ground. Hmm, it just doesn't have the same zing as the woodchuck poem. ;-)

But watch the marmots; they can be varmints. Especially doing things like eating the radiator hoses of cars.

[immune]

18. dupe

[immune]

19. Obviously, he'd leave your radiator hoses alone

if you'd kick in with some peanuts.

[madinmaryland]

21. Some people call them "whistle pigs"

When they get alarmed they stand up on their rear haunches and whistle.

[MineralMan]

22. True. I always used to love hearing the marmots whistle in the

Sierra Nevada mountains when I camped there. They know how to whistle. They just purse their marmot lips and...blow.

Guinea pigs are also called "whistle pigs." If you ever own one, you'll know why. Bring them a carrot or other treat from the fridge once or twice, and they'll start whistling every time you open the fridge. Operant conditioning - rodent style.

[janx]

78. I have a book at home about the social behavior of marmots.

It's very interesting.

[MineralMan]

93. I'll bet it is interesting. I know the ones I used to watch in the granite

rubble fields in the Sierras seemed to have a definite social structure, all cooperating to give the alarm if a predator came near. They seemed almost socialistic in their social interactions, taking turns to stand watch, even though it meant less time to look for food. But, then, another would take over the duty, allowing the previous sentry to take a turn at food gathering.

In that sense, marmots seem to parallel some human societal organizations.

[boston bean]

113. The life span of a woodchuck is about 2-4 years.

[MineralMan]

138. That's quite true. On the other hand, a woodchuck in captivity can

live over 20 years. That's an interesting thing. The truly pragmatic woodchuck would do well to take advantage of becoming a cherished pet, it seems. On the other hand, it would be a much boring, if longer, life for the beastie. Choices...choices...

[HughBeaumont]

32. Someone needs to photoshop some glasses and a bowtie on that critter.

Maybe Tom Tomorrow should have chose a cat for the "sensible" centrist.

:hide:

[Jennicut]

36. Cats don't listen to anyone and do their own thing, always.

They would not make good voters, only voting when it pleases them to do so. I know, because my lovely Daisy below told me so.

[MineralMan]

42. True, but cats are very attentive when it suits their needs.

For example, my two cats can be anywhere in the house, even in the darkest corner of the basement. Yet, the sound of me pulling the lid off a cat food can produces two cats at my feet within seconds. It's almost miraculous.

So, if they benefit from my actions, they certainly do listen to me very closely. They're pragmatic that way.

[madinmaryland]

47. Funny how that works. Two of our three cats do that and one of them

will wake up from the deepest sleep if we pop open the dry food bucket!

[DevonRex]

49. Heaven forbid you use the can opener.

Cleo comes running from the top floor out of a dead sleep at midnight in the dead of winter, while sleeping under a pile of quilts.

[madinmaryland]

52. Heh! The easiest way to find a cat...

Run the can opener!!

:rofl:

[MineralMan]

142. Our cats have trained us to open only cans of Fancy Feast,

and only in specific flavors. The scorn they display if we err is devastating. We are our cats' servants, and well-trained servants at that.

[DevonRex]

180. My cat even has me trained to take her out to eat grass so she can

throw up hairballs on my floor later in the day.

[Jennicut]

60. Cats always want to know what you have done for them lately.

Not loyal but certainly very intelligent.

[POAS]

128. I hear Australian cats

make very good voters because they are required to vote. Obviously you have only American cats that couldn't care less!

[Jennicut]

171. American cats are VERY independent.

And they demand to eat only Fancy Feast.

[MineralMan]

31. It's good to see all the woodchuck lovers in this thread. I can

recognize them from their avatars. Who knew that there was a woodchuck fan club on DU? :rofl:

[janx]

67. It's probably the most ludicrous image I've seen on DU

in all the years I've posted here.

And that's saying a lot! ;-)

[ljm2002]

34. Why does this post remind me...

...of that Gravel ad back during the presidential primaries, where he walked along the shore of a lake and then inexplicably threw a big rock // almost boulder into the lake, without further explanation?

Oh that's right. Because it's weird and obscure and obviously trying to make some point or connection to something, but you can't really tell what the darned point is.

[LWolf]

37. Here's your connection:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8655726

and not the avatars of many of the respondents, to which this post is directed.

[ljm2002]

56. It's not the gopher // wood chuck // ground hog thing...

...that has me scratching my head.

So some little creature picked up a peanut and ate it. The poster believes that little creature never saw a peanut before in his life!!!

Wow, that SO illustrates... er, something?... about political pragmatism.

Eh?

[LWolf]

57. It's reaching to bolster a pov.

Which shows that Tom Tomorrow hit a nerve.

[MineralMan]

139. Or, introduced more people to woodchucks and their interesting

lives. As I said, I see there are many fans of the woodchuck on DU. That can't be bad for woodchucks, who will doubtless benefit from all that affection.

[MineralMan]

81. Or, perhaps it is just a story about a woodchuck and some

peanuts.

[Ignis]

92. Oh, that's all it was about? Strange to post it in GD, then.

:shrug:

I'd suggest searching the DU Groups and DU Topic Forums for an appropriate forum next time.

[MineralMan]

101. Well, you just never know what a fable is about.

Consider the fable of the fox. On one level, it seems to mean one thing, while on another level, it has an additional meaning. With all the fans on DU of the humble woodchuck, it just seemed appropriate for GD.

[Ignis]

106. Good thing we can go to the source, then!

Since you wrote it, you should be able to clarify the Official Version of what the fable means. In fact, I believe that's exactly what ljm2002 was requesting in this sub-thread.

Oh, and I can see from posts upthread that you and your friends believe anyone who enjoys Tom Tomorrow is stupid, so I guess you'll just have to employ monosyllabic words in your explanation. :( Gosh, what a chore it must be to be The Smartest Guys in the Room!

[MineralMan]

134. A fable explained is a fable not understood.

Fables are to be taken as the reader understands them. Just ask Aesop.

[Ignis]

136. Thag no get it. You use too big words! Thag make smash!

Well, I can't say I'm surprised by your non-answer, but I would have enjoyed a real one.

So it goes.

[MineralMan]

141. The answer is in the fable. Thus has it always been.

Or, it is a story about something that happened in my backyard. That, also, is true. Lots of woodchucks in Minnesota backyards. Some enjoy having them there. Others find them annoying. There's no telling what someone's reaction will be to the appearance of a woodchuck in his/her yard.

[janx]

184. Or as Flannery O'Connor once said,

"The meaning of the story is the story." ;-)

[MineralMan]

187. There ya go! Looking too deeply makes you near-sighted, I

understand. Sometimes a joke is just a chuckle.

[Stinky The Clown]

35. Will you be expostulating on rats next?

I'm all ears and enjoying this walk down Silly Mammal Way.

[MineralMan]

40. I could, I suppose. I had a pet rat at one time. It was very clever

at training me to do what it wanted me to do. Quite an interesting little beastie, it was. I can't think of a fable about rats, though. Maybe your post will inspire me. I can't be sure, though.

[Stinky The Clown]

61. If inspiration is to be found, it will be where it is.

As to rats, my post did, indeed, introduce the topic in hopes of more from you.

[MineralMan]

100. Well, since we Democrats are often called "rats" by the right wing,

perhaps I will come up with a fable involving those interesting rodents.

[boston bean]

111. You're much better with bags of rocks, no?

stick to what you know best, would be my suggestion.

[MineralMan]

133. I do appreciate your suggestion. However, my interests extend far

beyond rocks and minerals. In fact, I'm no longer dealing with rocks and minerals, having moved on to other pursuits. An interest in nature and an affection for wild animals has been part of my life since childhood.

But, please feel free to make suggestions about what I should and should not be interested in at any time. I will take all of those suggestions under the same serious consideration with which you made them.

[azmouse]

127. Rats and groundhogs (or woodchucks)...

It reminds of when my brother and I were young. Our dog had a groundhog cornered and was barking like crazy.
My brother Gary went running for my mom and said he'd just seen the biggest rat ever in his life. My mom had to explain to him that it wasn't a rat but a groundhog (woodchuck). We had a good laugh but ever since then I've been able to tell the difference between a rat and a groundhog... a lesson that has come in handy when sitting under shade trees. Things aren't always what they seem. Most of what we see are really rats. Happily, I see that you have learned to tell the difference.

[MineralMan]

135. Very instructive story. People often liken opossums to rats,

as well. And that, even though opossums are not even rodents. A closer look is often needed, along with some additional information. I see far more squirrels and woodchucks than rats. In fact, it has been a very long time since I have seen a rat outside of a pet store.

[Silent3]

39. Can you use the peanuts as a reward...

...in training the woodchuck how to chuck wood? If that much is successful, can you follow up by measuring the quantity of wood the animal can process during a given period of time?

This is a question people have asked for a long time, and I'd like to get to the bottom of it, once and for all.

[MineralMan]

41. Hmm...an interesting question. I do know the reason that

woodchucks chuck wood, though. It seems that the incisor teeth of rodents continue to grow throughout their lives. Depending on their diet, they may need to gnaw on wood to keep their teeth from overgrowing and hurting their ability to eat.

So, it's one of those questions without a definitive answer. It all depends on the diet of the individual woodchuck and whether it's chucking hardwood or softwood, I suppose. Just like so many things, there are many, many variables that have to be considered.

[sl8]

43. Woodchucks do climb trees.

Why are you denigrating woodchucks' abilities? :)

Or, were you saying that you don't climb trees? You could read that sentence either way.

[MineralMan]

44. I did not know that. I don't believe I've ever seen one up a tree.

A guy learns something new everyday on DU, it seems.

As for your second question, I do not climb trees. I did when I was a child, but it seems non-pragmatic at my current advanced age, somehow. I may be less flexible than I was as a child, and I do remember falling out of trees. Even humans learn from experience, I guess. Sometimes, not being a risk-taker is the wisest choice.

[Beetwasher]

50. Bonsai Trees

n/t

[CBR]

53. No. Elm. nt

[Beetwasher]

54. Bonsai Elm

:evilgrin:

[CBR]

55. And they must be aged. nt

[superduperfarleft]

71. That website really bugs you guys, doesn't it? n/t

[Beetwasher]

74. Huh?

I'm talking about woodchucks climbing small trees. What website? :shrug:

[Ignis]

75. Enough to constantly refer to it by name, apparently.

But I'll confess that watching bulls tiptoe through a china shop in a ham-fisted attempt to skirt the DU rules is an endless source of amusement.

[superduperfarleft]

76. LOL. Yeah. They certainly do think they're clever. n/t

[Bobbie Jo]

108. Funny thing, this rule you reference...

You have to wonder why such a rule exists?

Now that you mention it, rule-skirting has become quite the creative challenge, no?

[Ignis]

131. No, actually, I don't.

But you may wonder, if you like.

[Bobbie Jo]

157. Actually, I know why.

...and so do you.

You're right, no wondering necessary.

[Ignis]

160. Oh, you misunderstand: I have no idea WHY that rule is in place.

I just know that I have to follow it or go somewhere else. No wondering involved there!

What I don't understand, however, is why so many other DUers attempt to post pictures of Dutch Elm Disease and the like, in unsubtle attempts to thumb their nose at that rule.

:shrug:

[Bobbie Jo]

167. Here

"I have no idea WHY that rule is in place."


Why:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html


Restrictions on Linking to Other Websites

Do not post messages that give publicity to websites that have little purpose other than to smear, disrupt, or complain about Democratic Underground. Currently there are only three websites that fall into this category. Their addresses are not listed here because we do not wish to give them publicity. They are easily identified by their bizarre obsession with Democratic Underground.

:hi:

[Ignis]

170. Er, yes--that's the rule to which I was referring.

I had considered including a link to the rules, but thought it might be misconstrued as snark. :shrug: Just goes to show you can't fail by aiming low, I guess.

Again, I have no Telepathy Hat or other means by which to divine why this rule was put into place. If you have questions about the administration of DU, I suggest you contact the admins directly:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/contact.html

I'm surprised to see that you haven't castigated those posters up-thread who are so boldly thumbing their noses at this rule. Why is that, exactly?

[Bobbie Jo]

172. Okay, Mr. Obvious

"Again, I have no Telepathy Hat or other means by which to divine why this rule was put into place."

I gave you the "why" straight from source.

Do not post messages that give publicity to websites that have little purpose other than to smear, disrupt, or complain about Democratic Underground. Currently there are only three websites that fall into this category. heir addresses are not listed here because we do not wish to give them publicity. They are easily identified by their bizarre obsession with Democratic Underground.

This is the "why" this rule was put into place.

What's with the Telepathy Hat? Simple comprehension will suffice.

[Ignis]

173. That's CAPTAIN Obvious to you.

And once again, I have no idea why that rule was put into place. Quoting the text of the rule itself isn't going to help either of us with our mind-reading powers.

I see you've chosen to ignore my question regarding your misapplied ire over rule breaking/skirting. Why is that, exactly?

[Bobbie Jo]

175. Aye, Aye Captain

I don't do the obtuse game. You understand my point just fine despite your efforts to feign ignorance and misdirect.

....and that's the best case scenario.

[Ignis]

176. I'm afraid I don't understand your point at all.

Oh, I certainly understand the methods you've been employing. And I understand that your goal appears to be to back me into a corner, plant a flag, and declare victory over the infidel.

My question remains the same, and I've asked three times now: Why?

:shrug:

[Bobbie Jo]

177. Okay.

[Ignis]

186. Thanks for clarifying that your position.

Have you alerted yet on the various tree-related posts up-thread?

[Bobbie Jo]

189. No, have you?

You seem far more concerned about them than I am.

[Ignis]

190. Oh, you're not concerned about rule violations? That's odd.

It seems to me that's precisely why you called me out in this sub-thread. :freak:

I've asked you to explain your reasons for doing so three times, but you've ignored my requests. :shrug: I'm not sure what more I can do.

[Name removed]

195. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ignis]

199. You know what's really getting old? Witch-Hunts against DUers.

But thanks for continuing your personal attacks. :hi: That sort of bullshit really adds a lot to the level of discourse around here.

[Bobbie Jo]

214. "Witch-Hunts?"

LOL

"Do not post messages that give publicity to websites that have little purpose other than to smear, disrupt, or complain about Democratic Underground."

The legs on this high horse are a little wobbly.

Whatever.

[Ignis]

215. And I haven't broken that rule, have I? But your friends upthread sure have.

You've quoted the same rule that's being broken upthread to me over and over and over and over and over again, yet you can't seem to be bothered to alert when the rule is actually broken.

Again, I'll ask: Why is that? :shrug:

Perhaps you should spend a little less time worrying about my understanding of the rules--something over which you have absolutely no control--and and a little more time worrying about the actual rule violations being committed all around you--something which you can definitely influence by hitting Alert.

Hope that works out for you. :hi:

[Bobbie Jo]

219. Not an "it-getter," eh?

I quoted the same rule over and over to shine a light on the site in question. This site is the most vile, disgusting, juvenile excuse for a discussion board I have ever seen.....that seems to exist for no other purpose than to denegrate DU. The palpable hatred toward DU and individual DU'ers is just....bizarre.

So...I could care less about your "understanding" of the rules. Perhaps you should spend a little less time "worrying" about vague references, or assorted rule violations, and a little more time "worrying" about why anyone would defend this behavior.

Hope that works out for you as well. :hi:

[Ignis]

222. Aww, thank you! Imitation really is the sincerest form of flattery.

Are you done with the witch-hunt yet, or do you still wish you see my papers?

[Bobbie Jo]

223. Like I said...you understand just fine.

Keep defending.

[Ignis]

225. Now you're just telling fibs. I haven't defended anyone but myself.

And I'm certainly allowed to defend myself from your bullshit accusations and implications. You can believe what you like about me--and your posts demonstrate a very twisted imagination--but my papers are indeed in order.

So you can either produce an ounce of proof for your claim, or you can retract it. Which will it be?

[Bobbie Jo]

228. I'm sorry, was this about you?

Good grief...follow the conversation. What the hell are you even talking about, now?

Edited to add: On second thought, I'm growing weary of this circular convo. Please feel free to have the last word...it seems to matter.

[Ignis]

229. You seem to have made it about me, yes.

Or were you talking to another poster about another subject when you sneered, "Keep defending?"

Scratch the surface of a bully and you'll find a coward underneath. :hi:

[Bobbie Jo]

233. You managed to call me

a "bully" and a "coward" in the same sentence.

Congratulations. Case closed.

P.S. For the record...calling me a "bully" and "coward" would suggest that somehow I am intimidated by you. That would be an incorrect assumption.

[Ignis]

234. I didn't call you anything, but I'm sorry to hear that you self-identify with my aphorism.

I learned a long time ago--as the only poor kid without a well-connected family in a class full of rich assholes--that mildness and deference are not effective strategies when dealing with bullies.

Just like Rep. Grayson, "I punch back." :hi:

So you're certainly right about one thing: You do not intimidate me. But I applaud the passion of your attempt. Even if you can't see that we're on the same side, it's good to keep one's skills honed.

---

By the way, was that the semi-almost-maybe-penultimate word? ;) I'm not fussed, I just like noting the distance between what people say and what they do.

[Bobbie Jo]

236. "I punch back."

Good for you, really.

But you have to actually land one every once and awhile, otherwise, you're just flailing about. :hi:

[SunsetDreams]

235. All I got out of this subthread is you apparently can't talk about trees

:eyes:

[Hekate]

237. Trees are kind of a "bizarre obsession," aren't they?

:eyes:

[spoony]

125. It should bother them more they don't have the freedom to just say it.

They have to jam embarrassingly awkward references into their posts, lol.

[Bobbie Jo]

156. Yeah...why can't we just "say it?"

There must be a reason?

[KittyWampus]

45. Did you know groundhogs clean the poop out of their burrows? How fun is that?

[MineralMan]

46. I guess they're neat little beasties, too.

Since it's no fun to live in poop, their pragmatic attitudes lead them to clean up after themselves.

[Scurrilous]

48. Great post.

K & R :thumbsup:

[noamnety]

51. Woodchucks are pragmatic like that.

Even though humans are ultimately destroying the environment woodchucks need to survive, that won't stop the woodchuck from eating from our hands.

[MineralMan]

83. Yah, well, like squirrels, woodchucks readily live in backyards.

In reality, we're providing them an ideal environment, mostly free of their usual predators and often with ample food for them to eat. Woodchucks seem to thrive around human habitations. So, I guess your first premise is incorrect.

As for eating from our hands, I've found few animals I could not entice into doing that, from mice and various birds to rodents and larger mammals. Maybe it's just me, but I never have trouble getting wild critters to take food from my hand. I'm sort of a non-threatening type. Some animals seem to sense that.

[noamnety]

104. Yes - humans have done much to improve habitats for woodchucks

and other wild animals. Suburbia is good for wildlife!

Pragmatic and optimistic. I like that! :)

[MineralMan]

144. It's true. We have deer in abundance in our neighborhood, which

is not suburbia at all, but in the city limits of Saint Paul. They have great parkways that go through every neighborhood and connect every part of the city. Saint Paul has mutiple lakes, too, most of them inside large parks.

In addition, the railroad cuts diagonally through the city, offering the deer a highway to travel. I don't feed the deer. They manage quite well on their own. No predators, other than a few stray dogs, since most people follow the city's leash laws. Nobody hunts them, and everyone seems to enjoy seeing them, more or less. You do have to fence your backyard if you grow fruit trees there, or plant attractive gardens, but that's about it.

Then there are the Canada geese, which seem to have made the city their principal habitat in this part of Minnesota. Again, no predation, and thousands of acres of lawn for them to graze on. People here are very polite to the geese, stopping frequently to let them cross the busy streets.

Ducks, too, which populate the local lakes in far more abundant numbers than elsewhere in the state. They've even learned to visit local bird feeders to dine on the wasted seeds that fall on the ground. We've had a pair of mallards come to our yard in the springtime for the past six years. Same pair, too. They eat here until there's enough growth to feed them at the lake about six blocks away.

Of course, the foxes have moved in to prey on all this small wildlife, but you rarely seen them. I was lucky enough to see one cross the street near my local lake. Very interesting.

Even forest-dwellers like the pileated woodpecker have moved into the urban forest, finding it safer and more inviting that other habitats.

So, yes, a well-designed city, with abundant trees, water, and other plantings, is a nice habitat for creatures of all sorts. They've adapted to what might seem to be a strange place. It's their built-in pragmatism. Food, safety, and access to needed things makes them flock to this new habitat. In many ways, it's a better place to live than outside of the city.

[NJmaverick]

58. You're a modern day Aesop

:hi:

[spoony]

63. Um, then why are you beating up on the woodchuck?

If he's pragmatic and a positive symbol, what's up with the sig? Serious dissonance is apparently caused by having a cartoon ruin one's life, lol.

[NJmaverick]

64. The woodchuck can also be seen as a strawman, a comic symbol used by a cartoonist who

lives in a fantasy world. Because that cartoonist lives in a fantasy world he fails to comprehend the difference between the possible and the impossible. Sometimes you reach a point where the little critter need a bonk on the head to get them to wake up, open their eyes and see the world as it really is.

[Ignis]

65. Wow, that cartoon sure got under someone's skin.

:rofl:

[NJmaverick]

66. Very odd, that you drew that conclusion. What did you base that on exactly?

It appears there was a major break down in communications

[Ignis]

68. Oh, I don't think it's odd at all. I'm sure many other DUers see the same thing.

You could post a poll to check my hypothesis with some hard data, if you'd like. :shrug:

[NJmaverick]

70. So your reality is constructed by polls. That explains it then

[Ignis]

73. Oh, did I say that? Please quote me, if so. Otherwise, you're just making shit up.

Quelle surprise!

[NJmaverick]

115. Sorry, I could have sworn you sought to use a poll to define reality

I am very happy to learn I was mistaken

[Ignis]

118. Thanks for the apology. No harm done.

[superduperfarleft]

77. "your reality is constructed by polls" What the hell does that even mean?

I mean, I know those words, but they don't really make sense the way you've attempted to combine them into a sentence. Like a Yahoo Serious Film Festival.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

88. LOL

For real.

[spoony]

69. lol

Those doing all the vociferous objecting to a cartoon woodchuck never seem to stop to think how utterly, hopelessly small it makes them look, all the while giving the original source of their angst more corroboration.

[Ignis]

72. But it's only sensible to display teeth-gnashing rage over a cartoon character!

...Especially a cartoon character written by one of the best cartoonists of the past decade, who was the darling of DU all through the eight long years of Shrub's pResidency.

[laughingliberal]

84. Very sensible! nt

[janx]

110. Where is the teeth-gnashing rage?

Do you have a link? I want to see it! I've never seen teeth-gnashing rage about a woodchuck before! :hi:

[Ignis]

119. Aw, it's sweet of you to bait me, but I wasn't born yesterday.

Here's a link to the DU rules you were asking me to break:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

Best of luck! :hi:

[janx]

121. I wasn't trying to get you to break any rules.

I just wanted to see the teeth-gnashing rage about the woodchuck, that's all. :( Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[Ignis]

124. Most are unlikely to be fooled by such a faux-naïf display.

But follow your bliss! :hi:

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spoony]

123. But don't forget, it's also sensible to deny that rage

despite piles of threads and violent-fantasy-fulfilling avatars and sig pics to the contrary.

After all, it surely isn't sensible to start being intellectually honest now. The pragmatic route is to dig deeper!

[Ignis]

126. Intellectual honesty?!? What are you, some kind of Commie Idealist?

:spank:

[POAS]

129. Based on what I've been reading in this thread

it seems the woodchuck avatar has become a very pragmatic tool for getting under the skin of some others.

Glad to see the message of the usefulness of pragmatism is getting through and being used, apparently to good effect or so it would seem from the comments here!

[NJmaverick]

112. You operate under some serious mistaken impressions

They range from how seriously you take a cartoon to your belief that our world has been turned upside down.

[janx]

114. I would like to see the vociferous objections and angst!

:hi: Where are these?

[NJmaverick]

116. They are in a happy place

Much better than the real world

[Ignis]

120. Who are "they?"

:shrug:

[YOY]

185. Them!

[Ignis]

191. I guess you must be right.

It certainly couldn't be an attempt to skirt the DU rules regarding personal attacks. Perish the thought!

[YOY]

192. That kind of Shennanigans is just unthinkable!

and who are we to call Shennanigans?

I for one support brave Sir Mavalot on his holy quest to slay the woodchuck with his REAL pragmaticism and sensability!

He needs to take it back!

[Ignis]

200. Oh, it gets better: I've been "outed" as a Freeper...because I read BOOKS!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8794281&mesg_id=8803010

You can't make this shit up. :rofl:

[YOY]

203. Gotta be tough...being a vegan freeper.

Not to mention your choice of faith...I'm sure with enough philosophical gymnastics it's workable!

[Ignis]

205. It doesn't matter what your bona fides are, once you're on the Bad List.

I could post a scan of the personal thank-you letter I received from then-President Bill Clinton, and it wouldn't count for shit.

I could post one of many pictures of myself and Barbara Boxer shaking hands, and it wouldn't count for shit.

I could post the total sum of donations I've given to Democratic candidates over the years, and it wouldn't count for shit.

All that matters to some people is whether or not you're perceived as a "hater" over any real or imagined criticism of the current administration's policies.

What a farce. :thumbsdown:

[YOY]

211. One really must wonder what they hope to accomplish.

Because if they can't handle honest criticism and simply pointing out things...well...it won't have a happy end. We've been on a bitter-sweet "I was right" streak for the past 10 years. Having/using a long term memory is supposed to be a standard.

Hey...I've got a picture of me talking to Sherrod Brown at my father's retirement. Although despite being a Clevelander I have not met the Koonch. Interesting cat from what I hear.

Sorry. Unpragmatic moment....suffering from a lack of sense perhaps.

[Ignis]

216. That sounds like a neat picture; I'd like to see it sometime.

I haven't had a chance to meet the Kooch, but I did have a chance to meet his wife, Elizabeth, through a friend at PCRM.

But I'm not complaining. :D

[YOY]

217. She seem pretty um...yummy.

For lack of a better word.

[YOY]

117. And you Sir Mavalot must slay yon bestie!

And I shall wait for you in the tower my brave knight! Fear not death my brave one! For thou canst not be slain no matter how grave the danger!

Godspeed!

[MineralMan]

102. You're too kind, by half.

Although, come to think about it, many have referred to my with with that word from time to time. :shrug:

[boston bean]

59. Woodchucks are known to carry rabies. Skritch away! nt

[MineralMan]

90. Seems a minor risk to me. I'm trying to remember the last time

I heard of a rabid woodchuck. I believe that would be never. Any mammal can carry rabies, even humans. Lots of things are possible, but vanishingly rare. I think I'll ignore the risk of rabies with my backyard woodchuck. I just have to be sure not to surprise it with that head skritching. It takes a calm, slow approach.

Now, some animals don't take to such intimacies. The pack of raccoons I used to feed at my backdoor in California weren't all that apt to accept head-skritchings. But, there was one who was pragmatic enough to understand that letting me do that resulted in additional peanuts. Oddly, it was the fattest of the group.

My favorite head-skritching animal, though, was an opossum who visited my back door. He also enjoyed taking peanuts from my hand. I skritched its head with complete impunity. About five seconds after I did it, though, it would startle, even though my hand was nowhere near it at the time. They appear to have very slow reactions. I found it fascinating. And yet, it still knew that I was the source of those peanuts.

I have not yet had the pleasure of skritching the head of a woodchuck. I imagine, though, that I'll be doing it within the week. Rodents are pretty easy. They tend to accept human touch without a lot of concern, as long as food is involved. Very pragmatic of them, I think.

[asdjrocky]

79. Spent a lot of time thinking about this.

That alone speaks volumes. K&U.

[MineralMan]

85. No, not really. About five minutes, I guess.

Thanks for being concerned about my use of time, though. I appreciate it.

[Spazito]

80. Gosh, pragmatic woodchucks seem to roil some people up...

it's quite funny! I have seen both pragmatic woodchucks (groundhogs in my neck of the woods) and woodchucks who, ignoring the 'facts on the ground', as it were, run out in front of moving vehicles because, one could say, their vision was too narrowly focused.

They are, to be sure, fascinating creatures and most, thank goodness are, as you have observed, more likely pragmatic than not.

[MineralMan]

91. There are, apparently, lots of woodchuck fans here on DU,

if the prevalence of avatars depicting them are considered. It's heartening to see so many people concerned with the welfare of these humble rodents.

[Spazito]

95. I have noticed that! Interesting phenomenon for sure!

It warms the cockles of my heart to see such a love for nature being expressed without any hidden message, it is so refreshing!

[Mithreal]

82. 4+, 23000+ MM does comedy, I like it

This is so amusing if one understands what TT's cartoon says about the "sensible" types here and what some here consider food for thought.

Well done, MM, the joke is on them.

:applause:

[MineralMan]

86. Hey...no big deal. People have been laughing at me all my life.

As my father says, "You might as well laugh at yourself. If you don't, other people will do it for you."

:rofl:

[Mithreal]

89. +1

[MineralMan]

103. Wonderful!

I'll be laughing for hours!

[Uncle Joe]

87. If you had laced that peanut with poison and the woodchuck died after eating it, would this

still be pragmatism on the woodchuck's part?

Thanks for the thread, MineralMan.

[MineralMan]

98. Now, why would I do such a thing. It always seems to me that

animals have a sense about which other animals mean them harm. I hand tamed a California Blue Jay in half an hour. It learned to fly to my hand and perch there to get a peanut in that amount of time. It would not do the same thing for my idiot brother-in-law. However, when my wife held her hand out with a peanut in it, it flew right down to her.

Animals are very clever in their pragmatism. They weigh the benefits and risks of actions, based on their instincts and other factors, I guess. I've always learned a lot from befriending critters. I learned from reading a biography of St. Francis when I was about 10. He also had a way with beasties. I've been doing it ever since. Sometimes the beasts are smarter than the humans, it seems.

[Uncle Joe]

105. I'm happy to hear to that, I never believed you would. I was just debating the value of pragmatism.

I believe pragmatism is fine to an extent but I also believe it has some major limitations.

Maybe I'm just taking your O.P. to a political level to which you never intended.

Peace to you.

[Raineyb]

159. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that.

It's not pragmatic to take food from strangers without having it tasted first. Especially if you're a large rodent.

Frankly this story is a lot of nonsense signifying nothing. I see nothing pragmatic about taking any old shit without regard as to whether or not it will make things worse.

[a la izquierda]

97. squirrels are pragmatic alright...

they know that my dog cannot get into the garden, thus they sit there and eat my tomaters, whilst taunting my dog, with reckless abandon.

they only eat about half the tomater, leaving the rest to rot on the vine.

[MineralMan]

99. Yeah, I know. The squirrels who come to my yard to eat are

hyper aware of cats in the neighborhood. They know exactly how far a cat can leap in a pounce, and seem to ignore them until they move within that distance. Then, they scramble up a tree and curse at the cat until it leaves.

They assess the risk:benefit ratio, and are rarely caught. They are, however, stupid about cars, and suffer badly from that stupidity. Perhaps they'll evolve.

[janx]

107. "A Drumlin Woodchuck" by Robert Frost

A Drumlin Woodchuck

One thing has a shelving bank,
Another a rotting plank,
To give it cozier skies
And make up for its lack of size.

My own strategic retreat
Is where two rocks almost meet,
And still more secure and snug,
A two-door burrow I dug.

With those in mind at my back
I can sit forth exposed to attack
As one who shrewdly pretends
That he and the world are friends.

All we who prefer to live
Have a little whistle we give.
And flash, at the least alarm
We dive down under the farm.

We allow some time for guile
And don't come out for a while
Either to eat or drink.
We take occasion to think.

And if after the hunt goes past
And the double-barrelled blast
(Like war and pestilence
And the loss of common sense),

If I can with confidence say
That still for another day,
Or even another year,
I will be there for you, my dear,

It will be because, though small
As measured against the All,
I have been so instinctively thorough
About my crevice and burrow.

http://www.archive.org/stream/roadnottaken030053mbp/roadnottaken030053mbp_djvu.txt

[MineralMan]

146. Beautiful. I love Robert Frost.

I remember his appearance at JFK's inauguration. Even though he stumbled and had to recite a different poem than he planned to recite, it was a memorable event for me.

[janx]

178. The woodchuck poem is not one of his best known ones,

but it is remarkable.

[MineralMan]

179. I had read it many years ago, but forgot about it.

Thanks for posting it.

[Bluenorthwest]

122. The animal had encountered elements of the peanut previously

and senses them as food. So he did recognize it, just not in the human fashion. And this, of course, is assuming this animal has not previously eaten a peanut. That assumption is not at all pragmatic, as it hinges on that which is not known but believed.
Moral: We can do this all night.

[POAS]

130. We can do this all night?

Oh my that would be fun but alas my dog needs to be walked and it would not be very pragmatic to ignore that fact.

[MineralMan]

148. True. Walking the dog is obviously more pragmatic than

cleaning up after it, I'm sure.

[MineralMan]

132. It seems pretty unlikely to me that the typical woodchuck has

encountered a peanut in its shell. While lots of people feed peanuts to squirrels, they're not usually active at the same time as woodchucks, or in the same area.

Peanuts are not grown here in Minnesota. There isn't the long growing season as occurs in places like Georgia where peanuts thrive. So, the likelihood is that the peanuts were a new thing to the woodchuck. There actually is a woodchuck in my backyard, and it did, indeed, actually munch on my offering of peanuts in the shell, roasted but not salted.

Squirrels, of the normal gray kind, are also able to deal with unfamiliar nuts. I've tested mine with brazil nuts and macadamia nuts, both nuts they are unlikely to have encountered. Apparently, there is some essential "nuttiness" about them that leads the rodents to work at opening the outer shell to get to what is inside.

Woodchucks, do eat some tree nuts, although that isn't their primary food. Apparently, they also have the "nuttiness" detector, and are able to adapt to changes and new things in their diet. It's a valuable trait for them.

Peanuts aren't actually nuts at all, but legumes. Perhaps the squirrels and woodchuck have encountered other legumes, and sense the essential "beanness" of the peanuts. Who knows. In any case, they are pragmatic enough to explore the possibility that inside the shell is food. They benefit from that.

[RainDog]

149. LOL!

this is so f'ing lame as a political analogy it should've been written by Stuart Smalley, darn it.

[MineralMan]

151. Thanks! As I said, Aesop I'm not.

It's wonderful, though, that so many folks have commented on it, don't you think?

[RainDog]

227. sort of - but when a post gets deleted that notes the hypocrisy

of the banality of weevils.... it's a Marlon Perkins moment.

[MineralMan]

153. Want a belly laugh? Google pragmatic woodchuck or

woodchuck pragmatism.

SEO rules!

On that note, I'm calling it a night. Things are never quite what they seem, in politics and in life. My signature line, as always, applies.

[Bonobo]

154. Pragmatism? More like a hardwired adaptive survival response..

All woodchucks would do the same because it is hardwired.

That is precisely the kind of reflexive behavior I see from some DU'ers who will only do what is in their playbook.

If it is our side, it must be a delicious peanut.

That is called being hardwired and not such a great quality for judging new situations.

[MineralMan]

155. Indeed. Humans have some hard-wired responses, too.

Think about that one for a bit. It may not mean what you first think it means.

[Bonobo]

158. Far fewer than woodchucks, that's for sure.

But why the sphinx-like answer within a question?

Just say what you want to say or I can hardly discuss it.

[POAS]

161. Far fewer?

Not likely given the relative size of the brains.

[Bonobo]

163. You need to read up on the subject, I think.

Most human brain growth occurs after birth. Humans and other higher primates are quite unique in this regard.

It has to do with our large brain size and the difficulties of such a large head squeezing through the birth canal.

It is an evolutionary trade-off.

[POAS]

165. You must be right............

[Doremus]

162. I had one in my yard last year. We found she was a she when she had 3 kits.

Or is that pups?

We enjoyed watching the young ones' antics, chasing each other and playing as mammal young are wont to do. Along the way they and their mother chewed their way through a couple of tomato plants and LOTS of weeds. They are voracious green eaters!

The little ones began exploring in the yard behind ours, which is owned by the Wicked Witch of Northeast Ohio. I was unaware of this fact until said witch rang my doorbell at 9am one Sunday morning to inform me that I needed to DO SOMETHING about those nasty creatures in my back yard as they were eating her prized (don't know don't care). I told her that we enjoyed their company and they were quite welcome to stay in our yard as long as they cared to stay here.

You can probably guess how it all turned out. My cute, peaceful, harmless hoggies were trapped when they strayed into that evil witch's yard and destroyed by the animal warden.

I hate that woman. :cry: :cry: :cry:

[DevonRex]

181. Awww. Oh! That woman! She is evil.

How could anybody hurt the little piglets? :cry: and :hug:

[CTLawGuy]

164. you mean he didn't look at the peanut, scoff at it,

throw it at you, complain that you didn't get him any "real food" and then call you an animal abuser? :shrug:

[JHB]

168. As long as you don't put him in a suit,...

...have him wear glasses, and start lecturing people on "sensible" courses of action (the actual sensibility of which are debatable). That would be cruelty to animals.

[Hekate]

174. What happens if you toss a ball at it? Will it play?

~*~

[MineralMan]

188. I'm not that far along with my woodchuck. We're just getting

started in our relationship. I'll get back to you on the ball thing.

[Romulox]

182. Me? I taunt and abuse the woodchuck, while telling him my neighbor is much worse!

Damn asshole woodchuck still bit the shit out me, even as I was (patiently!) explaining to him that my neighbor was the real bastard. Turns out the woodchuck decided to take his chances three doors down... :hi:

[madinmaryland]

197. HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MineralMan...

:hi:

[MineralMan]

201. LOL!

:rofl:

[Whisp]

198. had to chainsaw down a diseased elm tree today, as a matter of fact.

it was withered and interfering with the healthy growth of the other greenery.

[Hekate]

204. When they're healthy, I understand they're beautiful. It's those bark beetles or whatever...

... that bring the poor things down.

Hekate

[mod mom]

202. You might want to consider whether convincing the woodchuck to hang is a good thing.

When we bought our house the inspector found damage to our structure due to woodchucks and it required the previous owner to hire a structural engineer & $7,000 to repair. We have 2 big dogs and no longer have problems w woodchucks.

[MineralMan]

207. The thing is that here in Minnesota, we have 8' concrete block

basements, so it'd have to be a very energetic woodchuck to burrow under them. The garage is hosed anyhow, so if it burrows under the slab floor, it'll just hasten its impending collapse and I'll have to build a new one a year or so sooner.

This woodchuck is a nice critter, so I'm still going to hand tame it. It's a new challenge for me, since I never lived where they're common. Give me a week or so.

[truedelphi]

209. Did you know that the Grizzly Man started out his life with animals

By being best friends with a squirrel?

Then years later, he is up in Alaska hanging out with the Big Furry Fellows.

Anyway, feel free to post about your progress a la woodchuck at next week's end

(And if it is your Birth Day, Happy Birthday!)

[MineralMan]

210. Birthday is next week. 65th. I'll be an official old fart.

Woohoo!

[LWolf]

212. Happy Birthday.

This may be one of the longer lasting threads on the front page of GD I've seen. A fine effort for your 65th.

And all about the fascinating woodchuck.

:P

[MineralMan]

213. Thanks for the birthday wishes. My wife sings this song on the

occasion of each of my birthdays:

Happy birthday to you.
You live an a zoo.
You look like a monkey,
And you smell like one too.

This thread has certainly surpassed my expectations in its longevity and persistence.

[Marr]

218. Man, that woodchuck cartoon really hit a nerve, didn't it?

When a criticized party fixates on the critique this much, it says much about it's accuracy.

[TalkingDog]

220. Try sprinkling it with some anti-freeze next time

After all, it is sweet. Cats and dogs will lick it from the driveway. Sadly with unfortunate outcomes.

The makers of antifreeze could put something in it to make it unpalatable, but they won't, because it cost them an extra penny per gallon.


Moral: Whether eating something that's just laying around benefits you or destroys you, sometimes depends on the intent of them that left it there. Other times it is simply a matter of the person leaving the peanuts or antifreeze not considering how what they are doing might impact those that eat out of an instinctual need.


(and for those who don't get it.... NO I WOULDN'T PUT ANTI-FREEZE ON ANYTHING THAT AN ANIMAL COULD POTENTIALLY EAT)

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Spagettio]

224. Translation: "I can't stand Tom Tomorrow!" N/T

[donco6]

231. Well, God, thanks for that. 250 posts and all summed up in one.

Saved me a shitload of time.

[johnaries]

230. I always heard that squirrels are just rats with good PR.

:evilgrin:

[SunsetDreams]

238. ...

:rofl:

[alarimer]

232. Pragmatisms = betrayal of actual Democratic or progressive principles.

We have had nothing but betrayal from this crowd and I for one am through with them.