re: this burqa stuff

[miscsoc]

wouldn't the best thing to do be to investigate the home environments of families whose female members wear the burqa? the problem isn't the burqa as such, the problem is patriarchal oppression within a section of muslim society.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. There needs to be some sort of public registration of these people.

And some sort of symbol needs to be stitched into their clothes so normal people can identify them in public.

[EstimatedProphet]

5. HA!

[Soylent Brice]

WIN.

there really is no other reply that could top this one.

[blondeatlast]

12. Superb.

:thumbsup:

[uppityperson]

13. You mean like wearing a burqa? That'd id those who wear burqas

-1 for poor comparison as it is very easy to tell who is wearing a burqa because they are wearing one.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Nah, it's a fine comparison.

This anti-burqa shit is obviously fascist in nature, and corresponds to rising anti-immigrant, anti-arab sentiment in Europe. It's all the crazy ass white supremacist ultra-RW parties in Europe that are supporting it. The "pro-women" argument is a red herring of the highest order. And American progressives should know better than to get suckered by it.

[uppityperson]

16. Are you calling Syria anti-immigrant, anti-arab crazy ass white supremacists? Or me?

Of course you think the comparison is fine, since it is your comparison. However, making someone who is dressed like everyone else wear something to be noticed is not the same as making someone who is wearing a burqa wear something to be noticed since, in most of the countries this ban is being proposed or going into effect, simply wearing a burqa is noticeable.

So fail on the comparison, and fail on calling those who agree with this anti-fascist anti-immigrant, anti-arab, crazy ass white supremacist ultra-RW.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. Oh, well if Syria does it then go right ahead...

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

30. Syrians are "anti-immigrant, anti-arab crazy ass white supremacists"

Fail on the comparison, fail on calling those who agree with this anti-fascist anti-immigrant, anti-arab, crazy ass white supremacist ultra-RW. Fail on the only response is eyeroll.

[Green_Lantern]

17. ultra right-wing?

The Socialist party in Spain supports it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

32. They've just voted against a public ban, but they support a ban in govt buildings

Though the Socialists in the French parliament voted for a public ban (only 1 person in the whole parliament voted against the ban, in fact), so the point that this isn't just the far right is valid.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/07/20/spain-veil020.html

[uppityperson]

19. Why do they need "some sort of symbol" when they are wearing burqas?

"some sort of symbol needs to be stitched into their clothes so normal people can identify them in public."

Just look and see. Is she wearing a burqa? No? No, no "symbol" needed. Is SHE wearing a burqa? Yes? No symbol needed since you can see she is wearing a burqa.

Most "normal people" would be able to tell if she was wearing a burqa without "some sort of symbol". Hence, poor comparison.

[Silent3]

25. Not to belabor an analogy meant ironically...

...but withing the logic of the analogy the men who might be making women wear burqas would be among those who needed to identified, and would not be wearing burqas themselves.

[guardian]

29. yes and

maybe some registration tattoos on their arms. :sarcasm:

[stray cat]

2. Government intervention into families based on beliefs?

dangerous grounds. The reverse would be conservatives in power and taking kids away from those with beliefs they disagree with ie atheism to start.

[miscsoc]

4. there is a danger there, i think it's justified in some cases

there are dangers if we don't do it. non-intervention can often perpetuate "private" structures of oppression.

[Goblinmonger]

7. You think it is justified to send in social services

because someone is an atheist? That can't be what you are saying.

If you are going to take on patriarchal society, I think you can start in other ways without targeting someone's religion.

[miscsoc]

8. no, and i don't believe in targeting muslims either

i was just referring to the burqa and the small proportion of muslim families - islam isn't really the issue - or other families who show signs of having deeply misogynistic beliefs. the burqa isn't prescribed by the koran or anything.

honestly i do think that if, say, every female member of a family was wearing a burqa social services would have cause to investigate.

[dtexdem]

3. Who's going to do the investigation?

If it's a study by social scientists, that's one thing.

But if it's an "investigation" by Hoaxland Security, I have my doubts.

[miscsoc]

10. well, the relevant local social workers

I meant investigation into domestic abuse and the women in question, not investigation into terrorism or anything.

[EstimatedProphet]

6. Re: this burqa stuff

I try to avoid the discussion, because I find it very difficult to separate out the concern people have for women's rights from what is apparently a campaign in some quarters to convert liberals to a Great War Against Islam.

[Green_Lantern]

18. how about fundie Islamists getting liberals to celebrate

Women being covered up as "free choice".

[EstimatedProphet]

21. How about working to aid neocon dreams of an Americanized Middle East

Thanks but no thanks. Besides, we've got our own fundie women-haters in the US. And there's plenty in other societies too, not just the Middle East.

[Green_Lantern]

26. huh?since when is Spain in the ME?

Few American women would agree to walk around in burqas.

Wanting ME women to have more rights has nothing to do with neocons.

[EstimatedProphet]

31. It has plenty to do with neocons

when neocons start a "women in the middle east are all abused, so we have to invade Iraq and Iran and Afghanistan and fillintheblankistan to liberate them all" campaign, as they did under Bush. Which is why I want to avoid the issue entirely, as I said originally. I could care less about what Spain does on this issue, because I don't live there. This issue isn't being used about Spain anyway in this country.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

33. "Islamist"

Nice term.

Kinda like a "lite" version of "Islamofascist".

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. yup

[EstimatedProphet]

22. Careful Pri - you're being anti-woman.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. you should see when i am anti-gay. also i know people love raising the issue of syria

and turkey even may have anti-burka laws, but i think its disengenous to pretend that when someone does this within their own cultures its just the same as when another culture does it to you.

when the british outlawed antiwomen measures in india, there was always an indian person/movement that drove it. its why people accepted and moved with the change

the consequences of these laws, and the further isolation of these women, might really be horrendous

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. THIS. FUCKING THIS.

DAMN, you summarized my thoughts on this matter PRECISELY.

Are you a clone of me or something? Nah, you're older... maybe I am YOUR clone?

[uncommon]

9. It's the physical representation of that oppression --

so while you have a point, this country would never allow it since it would violate privacy and religious freedom protections.

We should just start slapping religious fundamentalists of all strips in the mouth every five minutes until they quit being shits but unfortunately that also violates more than a couple of laws.

:puke:

[miscsoc]

11. i think it's a good and admirable thing that your country would never allow it

[Heidi]

15. How about women with holy-roller hair and five or more kids?

Such an approach is a slippery slope.

[EstimatedProphet]

23. So slippery, it seems, that people just can't avoid it.

[JVS]

28. The compassionate response would be to reach out and offer assistance to those one is worried..

might be being abused. Give them the support to be able to make a free decision about whether they wish to live that way or not.

Of course, that approach isn't pleasing to European xenophobes who simply wish to suppress another culture's customs.