This is what I don't get here at DU - RE: 'Religious clothing'

[LynneSin]

If a Christian Fundamentalist organization forced their women to wear repressive clothing or actually did anything to repress women in a way that treats them like 3rd class citizens and DUers would be all over it like flies on crap. Things like Polygamy or treating women like breeding machines are considered bad.

But gawd forbid if it's another religious fundamentalist group that is repressing women well that's just us being intolerant of their beliefs. Like the new French Rule that would ban the use of things like Nijab - the total body wrap that covers everything but the eyes that are worn by certain Islam Fundamentalists.

I wouldn't care if women dressed like that if the men did the same exact thing. And yes some men do wear robes in Muslim cultures but none of them wear an outfit so restrictive that you're stuck covered head-to-toe is something that has to be miserable in the heat and restricts your vision.

Equality is Equality is Equality, just because someone else that isn't our religion is doing it does not make it any better.

[dipsydoodle]

1. Ironically you touched on an issue

which does have some bearing in the UK where there is currently have no intention of introducing such a ban. Under our sex discrimination act it would be illegal to prevent any males wearing the same atire which could cause choas in our shopping centres which don't even allow hoodies at present.

[Winterblues]

2. Where does Respect end? or what should be most Respected

Equality or Religion? Should we Respect a Religion if it infringes on Equality?

[dtexdem]

24. we don't have to respect a religion at all -- that is our choice.

Equality includes the right to choose what we see as symbols of inequality.

[HopeHoops]

3. All of our banks (south-central PA) ban hats, hoodies, and sunglasses. I wear a hat and shades.

Just because. I've never been asked to remove them.

Then again, I'm an asshole.

[LynneSin]

5. But do you wear Hats, Hoodies and Sunglasses because you want too

or because some religious doctrine dictates you must wear these things all the time.

I could see where a bank creates a policy like that - everytime a bank is robbed usually someone is wearing a hat, hoodie and sunglasses. But that policy is not religious based nor geared towards one sex. And you can wear those things as soon as you leave the bank. I see a policy like that no different than the sign at my local deli that says they will not assist you if you are talking on the cell phone.

[dtexdem]

29. That is irrelevant to the right to wear them.

However, if hats and hoodies are banned for safety reasons in given venues, there is no reason that similar (or more-concealing) religious clothing couldn't be also -- in those venues.

[HopeHoops]

30. I wear a hat because I have long hair and shades to keep the sun out of my eyes.

I'm not at all religious but I respect all religions. I have a degree in philosophy, and mathematics just for the record.

[rrneck]

15. Heh. Yeah but it's fun, isn't it? nt

[HopeHoops]

31. It might be fun if they all didn't know me.

[zabet]

4. I was told by another DUer

that since Christianity was the largest religion in the US....it was OK to pick on Christianity but, since the other religions were in the minority, they should not be picked on. (not the exact quote but the gist of what I was told). :eyes:

[uncommon]

6. The only thing that concerns me about it is the possibility that women will be

forced to remain indoors because of it. Thus making their lives even worse.

[Romulox]

7. Part of it is based on the in-group/out-group dynamic. nt

[jobycom]

8. The difference is government forcing people to wear or not wear religious clothing.

I'm against the leaders of Islam pressuring women to wear veils or burqas. I'm more against government telling a woman she can't wear her religious symbol.

In the same way, I think women should be allowed to go topless on public beaches, but I would oppose a law forcing women to go topless on public beaches. For some Muslim women of some interpretations of their faith, going without a veil is exactly the equivalent of an American woman going topless on a beach. It should not be up to government to decide a woman's choice of clothing, even if the choise itself is pushed on her by her religion.

On edit: Corrected title to say "religious clothing" instead of "government clothing."

[LynneSin]

10. But the women is wearing that symbol because man forced her too

So either men are allowed to make her a 2nd class citizen or the government is allowed to make her an equal.

That's what it is all about.

[jberryhill]

12. You go over to the New Castle Farmer's Market...

...and start taking the hats off of the Mennonite women selling produce.

Come back and tell us how happy they were to be "liberated".

Is it really beyond your belief that women are capable of choosing a religion?

[LynneSin]

19. I'm talking repressive wear

I have no issue with hats, or even the scarf that some women use. Mennonite along with the Amish have dress codes for both men and women. These things do not repress women just show their religion. No different than someone wearing a cross.

I'm talking about a repressive form of dressing that covers a woman head to toe in a restrictive cover that hides everything but the eyes.

[jberryhill]

25. So, you want a law to penalize them on top of that?

I have no problem with a law that penalizes anyone who forces someone else to wear something.

I have a major problem with the government penalizing women for wearing things.

Is this 'repressive wear', and which of these women should be arrested:



People here want laws that penalize women for wearing things, whether they want to or not.

[muriel_volestrangler]

36. But some of the women say they wear the veil from their own choice

(there's a UK backbencher MP trying to pass a law about this at the moment; on TV last night, they showed him talking to some girls and women in veils in the street about it, so this wasn't just the spokeswomen for some movement, it was 'typical women'). They were clear about it, and came across as having made the decision themselves. Are you saying we should be telling them they have been brainwashed, and are too weak to know their own mind?

[Sal Minella]

28. . . . or start snatching the little crosses from the necks of Christian women . . .

[Cid_B]

35. Uh huh...

See... I've had this conversation with many a muslim and guess what...?

The women I spoke with and many of their husbands didn't want them to wear it either. It was for their safety because if they didn't bad things were gonna happen. Just that easy....

Choice my ass....

[PufPuf23]

41. At what point is childhood indoctrination child abuse?

Can this question be answered for a general (as opposed to extreme like child brides) case?

Does society apply benefit-cost to accomodations for world view?

Adult humans should be legally be able to choose a religion.

In the case of women (just as in men), some are most comfortable in narrowly defined roles.

I do not have answers.

[jobycom]

18. What if she wants to?

What if it's her choice, and government is forcing her not to dress as she wants to? I've met Muslim women who wear veils because they say it makes them feel more free, less like an object that men can stare at. They feel that you are the one being forced by men to display yourself for male enjoyment, that they have the freedom to escape that.

Would you support a law which required you to wear a veil? Or a law which forces you to go topless? Is that equality? Men go topless, so a law forcing women to go topless would make women equal to men, right?

[KittyWampus]

11. a burqa is NOT a religious symbol. It's cultural, as has been explained innumerable times.

Furthermore, it's not clothing. '

It's full body mask.

[jobycom]

14. It's a religious symbol with cultural origins, like every religious symbol. nt

[blondeatlast]

17. I think you've hit on the conflict very well. I had many Malaysian

neighbors in college who wore the hijab constantly--for them, it would be the equivalent of me going to class without a shirt of some sort. These were were opinionated and strong women; several were active members in our women's group on campus.

I've also toured Malaysia where the dress code for women ran the gamut from Western rock goddess to full body, no visible eyes burqa. It was that visit that convinced me that I had no business (nor did the government) deciding who can wear what.

Yes, burqas are oppressive--but I would not consider hajibs oppressive any more than my choice of what to wear on top over my jeans would be.

Tough call--but it simply isn't for me to decide (thank goodness!).

[JonLP24]

9. I don't have an opinion on this

as I'm still undecided. I've read in the past that West Asians face all sorts of hate and discrimination--I never been to France so it is just something I read--So these bannings, I hope are not from Islamaphobia. With that I feel if a woman optional chooses to wear one she should be able to. However posters have pointed out that immediate family members could force the woman to wear one against her wishes so there is that which is why I'm undecided. Truthfully I need to research the issue much more before I have a definitive opinion one way or the other.

[xchrom]

13. I think or my notion is that the French decided this

Within the context of their French secular society.

And it seems to me they have a right to do that.

The durians did in regards to their institutions
of higher learning but not other places.

Now more than that I wouldn't much venture to say.

I would like women to mostly guide on this issue
from an American perspective.
My instinct when I see a burqua is that it is
a Lack of equality on display -- and that bothers me
intensely.

[Sal Minella]

16. In the days of high-button shoes and long skirts and streetcars, some men

tended to linger at streetcar stops, hoping to catch an erotic glimpse of an ankle as a woman lifted her skirts to step up onto the trolley.

Decades ago I was amazed to read about Roman Catholic nuns who chose to continue wearing the bulky, ankle-length habit with the starched headgear rather than the newly permitted shorter clothing. I've heard Muslim women interviewed who prefer the total body covering because of their own desire for modesty in public.

Two thoughts are rattling around in my head:
Conditioning has a lot to do with an individual's placement of the line between "modest" and "erotic."
All women should have the freedom to choose the type of clothing they wear.

A guy can get all excited over the sight of a booted ankle, if that's the most intimate glimpse of anatomy he ever gets . . .

A woman should be able to wear designs from Omar The Tentmaker if she wants to without being persecuted, and she should be able to appear in public in summer clothing without being groped.

All I want is an Ideal World, is that so much to ask???

[noamnety]

20. We don't really care if women's clothing is about subjugation and sexism

Not even when the clothing causes short term and long term injuries to women.



A lot of people suddenly care though if it plays into anti-Muslim sentiment. :)

[eShirl]

21. [phone]

[jobycom]

22. +1

[LynneSin]

33. Did I wear that shoe because I wanted too or because some religion forced me to wear it

:shrug:

BTW cute shoe

[jobycom]

34. Same question to ask about the veil.

:shrug:

Religions and cultures have their rules, and you can be forced to obey them without feeling like you were forced. Should the government outlaw them? Should the government outlaw those shoes because they hurt women and because they are ultimately the product of a culture that creates ideals of beauty based on deforming and altering women from their natural appearance? I doubt many Muslim women wearing a veil would think you had superior freedoms seeing you twist yourself into that thing.

[JerseygirlCT]

38. Hmmm... I think you're making some assumptions there

Though I get the gist of it. I'm not a fan of the sort of clothing you show there, either.

I know it's a tough one. There's just a basic part of me that screams in rebellion when confronted with a culture that treats women as chattel. My small taste of that culture (in Bahrain) pissed me off, big time. Couldn't go out without a man (and my little brothers would do!), better not wear shorts or short sleeves... and Bahrain was the swinging, westernized part of the Gulf then. I hate it. I hate the whole idea that because men don't want to behave themselves, they force women into a kind of slavery.

[dtexdem]

23. If a Xian Fundie woman chose to wear the described clothing, that would be her right.

Meanwhile, we can (and should) deplore the coercion. But we should not support legal coercion that forbids a clothing choice.

[miscsoc]

27. spot on +1

[miscsoc]

26. I very much doubt that many DUers would ban a form of dress

Although they would certainly consider a christian burqa like garment a sign of something unpleasant going on in the religion.

I suppose a few might try to defend the burqa, they are misguided, it has its origins in misogyny and most people who wear it do so as a result of patriarchal oppression.

I just don't think banning items of clothing makes sense or actually helps the women in question at all.

[jberryhill]

32. The Government Is The Only Responsible Way To Regulate Women's Clothing

The Ministry Of What Women Can't Wear will issue regular updates, so that women will know what they can and cannot legally put on their bodies.

Women's clothing is the source of many social problems. Women should, under no circumstances, be allowed to wear unapproved clothing.

[JerseygirlCT]

37. Lynne, I agree with you

Add to it that the women are in a bad place - probably either way. With a law banning such restrictions, they may be more free. OTOH, if they are still under the thumb of the men in their lives, they may just not ever get out of the harem... I mean, house.

It's a tough one.

But I don't think that we ought to be ok with this sort of infringement of people's rights because it's being culturally sensitive. I know that puts me in a spot for passionate disagreement, but I agree with your last sentence.

[onenote]

39. this weekend I saw two women in a space of about 20 minutes

One was a woman crossing the street by herself. She was weearing a Nijab - a complete body wrap covering all but her eyes. A short while later, I got to the mall and saw a woman wearing a halter top that appeared to be a size or two too small, bare midriff, cut off shorts and spike heels. She was walking through the mall with her boyfriend/husband's hand in her back pocket.

I thought to myaelf -- which of those women is more 'oppressed' by their culture. I don't like that some elements of Islam dictate that women wear Nijabs, but I also don't like the fact that our culture allows women to be treated like objects in public and encouraged to wear demeaning outfits that objectify them. And that's where I see the problem: what business is it of the state to dictate what someone wears? If there is a safety issue? Okay. But its got to be a pretty compelling reason and one that is applied non-discrmiinatorily.

I'm not saying I have the answer, but I do think the questions are serious and difficult.

[JCMach1]

40. The origin of niqab is also political... first promoted by the Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt

and really pushed by the more conservative factions of that group... some of which morphed into Al Quada and Co.

There is nothing in the Koran about covering your face. So yeah Lynn, you are exactly right.

Living in a Muslim country also pisses me off about the double-standards Muslim countries have concerning dress and women in general.