Help me with a well thought out response to a friend's comment re: liberalism and Christianity?

[moriah]

Facebook is fun in helping us reconnect with people we used to know. I've been able to get in touch with people I haven't spoken to for 15 years or more. One of those friends is a very sweet lady I met through the local BBSes back in the early '90s who has been very Christian for all of the time I have known her. At the time I knew her, I was Christian as well -- I'm not anymore.

Her husband kind of started a political thread on his Facebook, and I responded to it indicating I'm liberal. After addressing one of my points, she asked this:

And, uh, and this one is more personal...Whatever possessed you to become a Liberal? Not just a Democrat, but a Liberal. Don't get me wrong, I'm just curious. I ask because I could've sworn when I first met back on your BBS that you were Christian... of some sort. Not sure of what faith, but we'd talked a number of times. And the Christian faith and being politically Liberal don't really mesh, so...?

I was floored, and have been trying to figure out the best way to respond to this pretty much all day.

I do not believe that conservatives have a lock on all Christian ideals. I've thought of a few -- taking care of the poor and needy, promoting peace instead of war, etc... but I'd like input from people who are actually Christian. The lady is not a bad person, she's just pretty stuck in her own worldview. I'd like to give her something to think about rather than just express my shock and disbelief that anyone would think that one political party/ideology has a lock on Christian values.

Thanks!

[bluethruandthru]

1. I think most republican "values" don't mesh with Christianity.

The republican party values corporations over people, they don't believe that society should take care of it's citizens, they are not good stewards of the earth with their constant efforts to rape the earth in search of profits and jobs, they turn a blind eye to global warming and scoff at those who try to conserve and on and on and on. The only thing republicans can hang their hat on is to say they are "pro-life"...which really means that they don't believe anyone should be able to have an abortion. HOwever, for them, being pro-life doesn't extend to people who have been born..and they overwhelmingly support the death penalty and wars of agression. THey are against anything that helps anyone who's is poor.
I could go on for a long time. :)

[katanalori]

7. Try this:

Richard T. Hughes is Distinguished Professor of Religion at Messiah College and author of Christian America and the Kingdom of God.

By Richard T. Hughes, Special to CNN

"Let me be frank from the outset: A great cultural divide is ripping the heart from this nation and Christians are partly responsible.

I say that because 83% of the American people claim to be Christians. If those Christians lived as they are taught to live by the teacher they claim to follow, the American public square would be a very different kind of place.

If one reads the New Testament—the charter for the Christian religion—one can discover rather quickly what that tradition is all about.

Jesus tells his followers to tell the truth.

Jesus tells his followers to make peace.

Jesus tells his followers to turn the other cheek.

Jesus tells his followers to bless those who persecute them and pray for those who misuse them.

Jesus tells his followers to extend justice, especially to the poor and the dispossessed.

Jesus tells his followers to serve as bridge-builders and agents of reconciliation.

And Jesus tells his followers to love one another, even their enemies.

But based on their words and behavior, we may safely conclude that many of the Christians who dominate America’s public square routinely reject the teachings of Jesus, in spite of their claims to the contrary.

Sharron Angle, for example, wants to be the next U. S. Senator from Nevada. She founded a Christian school but casually announces that “the nation is arming” since “if we don’t win at the ballot box, what will be the next step?” For Angle, that next step is clear: those who oppose the current administration may “have to fight for their liberty in more Second Amendment kinds of ways.” In other words, if the ballot fails, the bullet is the next best hope.

Sarah Palin is open about her allegiance to the Christian faith, but routinely trades in sarcasm, deceptions and lies about her political opposition. During the health care debate, she repeated over and again the falsehood that “the sick, the elderly, and the disabled . . . will have to stand in front of Obama’s ‘death panel’ so his bureaucrats can decide . . . whether they are worthy of health care.”

Newt Gingrich trumpets his allegiance to the Christian religion and writes about the role of the Christian faith in American history. He also knows that Barack Obama is a Christian. Yet he shamelessly denounces Obama as “secular”—a term Gingrich defines as an “outlook does not acknowledge God.”

No wonder that some Tea Partiers claim—as one woman put it—that “we are losing our country; we think the Muslims are moving in and taking over; we do not believe our president is a Christian.”

Glenn Beck warned a national television audience to “look for the words ‘social justice’ or ‘economic justice’ on your church Web site. If you find it, run as fast as you can,” adding that those terms are code words for communism and nazism. Surely Beck knows that there is no theme more central to biblical faith than social and economic justice for the poor, but still he is willing to distort the Christian religion for cheap political gain.

Ann Coulter promotes herself as a representative of the Christian religion. Yet, Coulter claimed after September 11, 2001 that the United States “should invade their countries , kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.”

When public figures like these so completely diminish the Christian faith, it is hardly surprising that grassroots believers often engage in similar distortions of the Christian religion.

Some Christians at anti-Obama rallies have displayed signs that proclaim, “Since 1630: Bible hugging! Gun toting! Red Blooded American Against Tyranny.” Or another: “I will keep my freedom, my Bible, my gun, and my money.”

When Christians so widely and publicly embrace such blatant distortions of the Christian religion, they abandon one of the roles they might have played in America’s public square: fostering civility and dialogue and building lasting bridges of reconciliation.

But civility and respect have been all but lost in contemporary American politics. Alan Keyes, for example, has proclaimed that “Obama is a radical communist.” And one of the signs that routinely appears at anti-Obama rallies shows the President wearing a Nazi uniform and doing a Hitler salute. Another sign reads, “Barack Hussein Obama: the New Face of Hitler.” Those kinds of accusations are nothing short of slander.

The issue I am raising has nothing to do with whether one is a Republican, a Democrat, a Tea Partier, or an independent. Neither political conservatives nor political liberals have a monopoly on this kind of behavior, though in recent months conservatives opposed to Barack Obama have been especially guilty.

Yet the issue I am raising ultimately has nothing to do with whether one likes or dislikes Barack Obama. The issue has to do with Christians behaving like Christians and thereby telling the truth, doing justice, and promoting basic respect for other human beings.

After all, since 83% of the American population identifies with the Christian religion, that 83% could make an enormous difference in the tone of American politics if those Christians actually practiced what they profess to believe. They could also make a positive difference in American politics if they held other Christians accountable when they engage in deception and slander in order to score political points.

America’s churches and their pastors therefore have a grave responsibility: to urge their members to serve the public square as peacemakers, as truth-tellers, as people devoted to justice, and as men and women who are actually willing to practice what Jesus taught. If America’s churches refuse to take up this task—which, after all, is a task that is central to the Christian calling—the consequences for our country could be dire, indeed."

[bluethruandthru]

11. Excellent! n/t

[patrice]

31. Thanks for posting this!

:applause:

[aquart]

2. Matthew 25:41-46

Turns out, the left of God is where the right wing sits.

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

[bobbolink]

8. Exactly. Thank you.

Or, the OP could send her this:



or......

[moriah]

19. That's perfect -- thank you!

I planned to reference that Jesus strongly advocated for taking care of the needy, but this is the verse I needed. Thank you very much.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

3. Pick just about any Gospel

passage and quote it to her. There was never anyone more liberal than Jesus Christ......... :shrug:

[Newest Reality]

4. I don't think it is hard to make your point

by going to the New Testament and focusing on what Jesus was purported to say on these matters. Take some passages and discuss just how liberal and/or conservative they are. Have a good time in a fellowship spirit rather than adversarial.

Sometimes, planting seeds with patience while knowing what you are talking about can blossom over time if you are patient.

We see a brand of modern, consumerized, conserva-Xtians who are rather lost in a deliberate, political facade designed to hijack the casual Xtian mindset and utilize the overtones of righteousness to gather support for agendas with ulterior motives.

Plus, there are many who look to already biased and politically motivated preachers who pick and choose passages and then present their interpretation to the unwitting flocks. That's subversion.

[moriah]

21. Yeah, I definitely want this to be a discussion....

... not an argument. As I said, the lady really is a sweet person. I really don't think she was intentionally trying to be offensive.

Thank you all to everyone who has helped on this... I've been writing my response to the political part of the discussion since I posted this OP, and I was just about ready to get to the religious part. Since I'm *not* Christian anymore, though, I didn't want to just prove her point because of my own religious faith being different. (And if she'd looked at my info page on Facebook, she'd see I'm not Christian anymore... heh)

[Igel]

32. It's far harder.

Most Xians on the left side of center define "righteousness" as they want to even as they cite the NT. In other words, Jesus meant whatever they understand him to mean.

Jesus preached righteousness, and that had a specific meaning. He also preached mercy and forgiveness. He preached that we should each help our brothers and sisters. He preached that his fellow citizens shouldn't resist oppression and preached acceptance even of tax collectors, which make most businessmen look like saints, as long as they don't abuse their authority.

The first isn't especially liberal. The second is generally considered liberal, but I see a lot of liberal Xians seeking vengeance and pay-back and saying it's good when they do it but bad when others do it. The third isn't especially liberal in the modern sense of the word because it's collective action rooted in voluntary personal action, and many liberals are in favor of collective action even if it's forced. The fourth is especially a-liberal because the tax was a poll tax and the tax collectors were tax farmers.

I'm sure somebody will assume if I don't mean A I must mean "not A"--that if Jesus wasn't liberal, he must be conservative. These categories aren't that old. It's like calling Hannibal a Republican or trying to say that Tamerlane was a follower of Trotsky, or Suppiluliuma I was a member of the DLC.

Very few people have gone to war thinking God wasn't on their side. They take whatever writing or oral tradition they have and parse it until it says pretty much what they want it to say. Then they say it's always said what they've made it say and use that to beat other people over the head with. Oddly, people always think this provides license and support when it's actually an odd appeal to authority. It's easy to see when it's somebody else doing it. It's much harder for a person to see when s/he's doing it.

[JHB]

5. Ask him "Does Jesus Save?"....

When he says "of course", ask him what's His return on investment? How much does He clear after he renders unto Ceaser?

because obviously there's no camels and needle eyes involved.

[Sebastian Doyle]

6. Jesus was a Liberal

That should be obvious from any actual reading of the Gospels.

[Angry Dragon]

22. I totally agree

he came with a new way of thinking and doing, he did not go back to the old ways

[Curmudgeoness]

9. Along with making your point, which I am sure you will find easy to do,

ask her why she would think that conservatives of today are meshing with Christianity. I am rather appalled by her comments, but I agree with others that you should stick with reasons that being liberal is being Christian to you.

[etherealtruth]

10. Realizing this is anathema to many here ...

I credit Catholicism (and my family) with my liberal views. I left the church behind long ago .... but I held tight to the teachings (I attended Catholic school i the 1970s).

[patrice]

12. Me too. I still believe a lot, not all, of the dogma. There's a very interesting video with RFK Jr

interviewing a religious scholar who talks about a deep divide in the Catholic Church between Vatican II Catholics, who value the primacy of individual conscience and ecumenism, and the Catholics that are running the churches now, authoritarian reactionaries, who repudiate Vatican II and want to erase it from the church.

Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wT9tSYCK0E

[etherealtruth]

14. Thank you!

I come from a long line of liberals and Catholics!

[patrice]

25. My mom was a conservative Lutheran convert to RC, but dad was an Irish Labor leader

in the Midwest in his time. He never graduated from highschool, but he taught himself trigonometry so he could show construction crews how to lay big pipe for power-plants and such. He liked to talk about Pierre Tielhard de Chardin at the dinner table and tell stories about the Racism he saw on big construction sites.

[etherealtruth]

30. I was reminded as a child that "we" Irish were considered ...

... an inferior "race" and likened to apes in the not so distant past ... It really put "isms" in a very personal light.

[patrice]

33. Dad was inspired by a fire-breathing Irish populist-preaching priest in

Coffeyville, Ks in the 1940s, Father Patrick Quinn. I was named after him.

[undeterred]

13. Is it possible for anyone to be both a Republican and a Christian?

I studied religion for a long time and there is one thing about God that I am sure of: The nature of God is inclusive. Towards people of all races, genders, sexual orientations, religious faiths, any other differences. If God is the creator of all life, how can it possibly be otherwise?

The values embodied by Republican leaders are wealth, deception, and murder. They are in direct opposition to Jesus preferential love for the poor, his truthfulness in all things, and his attitude of self-sacrifice towards others. Republicans seek to exclude or dominate those that disagree with or are different from them. They impose their ideas on other people whether they want them or not. Their lies (like trickle down economic theory) are not harmless; they have devastating effects on millions of people.

The values embodied by Democrats are certainly a lot more compatible with Christian faith: making sure everyone in society is cared for at a basic level, fairness in employment and dealing with immigrants, war as a last resort instead of a preference. Democrats are, at least in principle, inclusive. Democrats are the big tent. Republcans are "my way or the highway".

The Republicans have put up this mythical bullshit about 'family values' as a means of convincing conservatives that they are the good guys. More divisiveness in families takes place because of the judgmentalness of conservative Christians than anything else I've ever seen.

Liberal means generous. Conservative means stingy. Jesus was generous.

If someone stated their bias against liberal Christians as baldly as your friend did, I'd state mine just as plainly.

You pushed my buttons!

[moriah]

17. It pushed my buttons, too....

... which is why I came here instead of flying off the handle. No, I'm not Christian now. But my understanding of Christianity was very different than the "Religious Right" even when I was Christian... and my mother, who is very devout, is also very liberal. I know she would be highly offended at being told that her politics didn't mesh with her spirituality.

Plus the whole thing of saying the word "liberal" like it is the worst insult on earth.... yeah, that got me.

[Fumesucker]

15. It is not mere happenstance that the sin Jesus the Christ most often and vociferously condemned ..

Was that of hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is what allows us to say one thing with our mouths and another thing with our actions.

Hypocrisy is not a binary condition, there are infinite gradations and shades of of hypocrisy and, IMO, no one is free of it completely. However it behooves the true Christian to attempt matching his words and deeds to the best of his ability because the Christ was severely down on hypocrites and hypocrisy.

Consider the parable of the Good Samaritan, two pious and observant Jews passed by the injured man as if he were rotting meat to be shunned and yet the despised Samaritan stopped and helped the injured man in the Christ's tale. Clearly the Christ intended to convey that mere pious observance of the religious forms was inferior to acting in a moral and benevolent manner toward one's fellow human beings in need.

[mediaman007]

16. Consider the Beatitudes

[RainDog]

18. Ask her to show you the parts of the gospels that indicate that Jesus was a Republican

and please share with the rest of us.

Tell her, "yeah, I know, I'm a liberal and a Christian. If I were really intent on following the example of those who knew Jesus, I would give away everything I own - I'd be a communist, like the apostles were."

Acts 4:32-37 (New International Version)

The Believers Share Their Possessions

32: All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33: With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34: There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35: and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

Luke, also, showed that Christians who align with Republicans, the party of the rich, are not following the teachings of Christ or the disciples.

Luke 16:13 (New International Version)

13"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

So, any Christian who sides with the rich puts money before God.

Public prayer and alignment of prayer with politics is antithetical to the teachings of the disciples. School prayer is against the teaching of the Bible:

Matthew 6:6 -8

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

-- this could go on and on. I was raised as a christian in the south - which is why I am now an atheist. Fundamentalist/literalist xtians are the best advertisements for atheism on the planet.

Your friend sounds like a true ass, an incredibly ignorant person - and a reason why this nation has so many problems. But of course, she is full of self-righteousness and hatred - which is yet another reason why right wing xtians in the U.S. would be an abomination to Jesus.

[patrice]

20. Ask her to cite ONE Conservative passage in the NT and then direct her attention to Matthew 18

especially verses 23 and on. And then in 19 Jesus tells us to sell all that we have and give it to the poor.

In Luke 3:7-14 John the Baptist rebukes those who presume salvation and in Luke 4 we are warned against the acquisition of power.

Pick up a Bible and read the New Testament; it's full of "liberal" ideas, but I suspect that what The Bible says isn't the real issue.

Persons such as your friend, who have God all parsed out and tied up in a nice neat answer, people who think they can speak God's mind about others and about this and that and define their own spiritual fate and that of others are

BLASPHEMERS

How would an omniscient omnipotent entity be absolutely knowable in any way shape or form to limited humanity, unless a person assumes s/he has direct and complete knowledge of God in regards to ____________________. Your friend uses that assumption to say who is and who isn't saved. She kills the ineffable mystery of what a God would be. She thinks she is God.

It is possible to violate the First Commandment by making a "strange god" of one's own mind/understanding and by equating one's own mind/understanding with God, by placing one's own understanding BEFORE the Truth, rather than humbling and opening one's self to the great mysterious event in which ***ALL*** of us participate.

[Angry Dragon]

26. Nicely said

[patrice]

28. Thanks!

:hi:

[patrice]

27. P.S. There's a reason why the First Commandment IS the First Commandment.

[Bill McBlueState]

23. around 80% of Americans are Christian

Due to the sheer number of Christians in this country, it would be hard to find a political movement without a lot of Christians in it. Your friend needs to get out more.

[seabeyond]

35. that is one of the many things i point out when i hear this from people in my area.

and i hear it a lot.

[ThomThom]

24. Just ask her: Who would Jesus bomb?

Who would Jesus let go hungry?
Who would Jesus turn his back on?
Wouldn't Jesus be for all life on the planet?

[white_wolf]

29. May I suggest Luke 6:20-23

20Looking at his disciples, he said:"Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.21Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied Blessed are you who weep now,for you will laugh 22Blessed are you when men hate you,when they exclude you and insult and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. I don't think I've ever heard a conservative say anything about the poor other than their lazy or on drugs or are being punished by God.

[aquart]

34. I wouldn't use that. It's a big fat excuse to do nothing.

God's gonna take care of everything later. Pie in the sky when you die. No one on earth has to move a muscle.

What I specifically like about Matthew 25:41-46 is that it's a command to be active. Doesn't talk about future reward for the poor. Talks about strong punishment for those who don't get off their self-satisfied asses and help the poor.