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How is Iran arming insurgents and sending operatives to Iraq different from our practices?

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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:28 PM
Original message
How is Iran arming insurgents and sending operatives to Iraq different from our practices?
Edited on Tue Jan-30-07 11:30 PM by jpgray
Espcially during the Cold War, where both sides would routinely arm and train "enemy of my enemy" guerillas (US with Osama in Afghanistan, Soviets with Viet Cong, etc.), and also send agents to clandestinely fight against the enemy? Did we declare wars or launch air strikes based on this behavior? I haven't seen convincing evidence of certain Iranian involvement yet, but it wouldn't surprise me. Why should it? Nations have been doing this with next to zero consequences for hundreds of years.

edit: Doubtless also the Saudis are going to start backing the Sunni contingents in Iraq clandestinely--they don't want a Shia united front between Iraq and Iran. So what happens when their aid and support is discovered if we set a bad precedent with Iran's?
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. Iraq is in our Sphere of Influence.
Iran has no business being there or anywhere else for that matter, since the whole planet is in the World's Only Superpower's Sphere of Influence.
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bananarepublican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Naturally! A sphere afterall is a sphere!!
The military's doctrine concerning space dominance simply emphasizes the fact that the Moon... is also a sphere and thus belongs to Uncle Sam!!! I can fully understand our indignation at China's recent satellite killing exercise - if actually true - can't you?

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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. But... but... Iran's arming the Shiite government's main factions...
In other words, Iran's arming our FRIENDS! ...such as we have.

Ain't that twisted!
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. Iran is not arming insurgents.
I reject your assumptions. There is no evidence that they are, and they would certainly not be arming sunni militias, which militias constitute essentially the entire insurgency. Please stop accepting their bullshit premises.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. They'd be very stupid not to
Here's a chance to stamp out a potential base of permanent US involvement in the Mideast. Your ignorance is displayed by your argument that "sunni... militias constitute essentially the entire insurgency." Some of the biggest hotspots of violence have been in non-Sunni areas.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Oh really? Which of the biggest hotspots of insurgent violence
Edited on Tue Jan-30-07 11:50 PM by Warren Stupidity
- that is attacks against our troops or troops of the Iraqi army - have originated in non-Sunni areas?
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Basra, Karbala, etc.--members of the Mahdi army are Shia
Do you know anything about what you are arguing about?
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Basra is not a hotbed of the insurgency. Nor is Karbala.
You are simply wrong. The Mahdi army fought against us briefly in 2004, and then stopped directly opposing our occupation. Instead they have been working within the official government and at the same time have been heavily involved in the sectarian violence. They have not been attacking our forces for quite a while, and they certainly would not be attacking themselves while they were wearing those Iraqi Army uniforms rather than their militia uniforms. Basra has been mostly peaceful since early after the war started. The only major violence appears to be initiated by the Brits who every now and then take it upon themselves to knock over a police station.

You really should research the subject. The term insurgency is interchangable with the phrase 'sunni insurgency'. That you are not aware of this is stunning.

"Whereas the Vietnam War was a Maoist people's war, Iraq is a communal civil war. This can be seen in the pattern of violence in Iraq, which is strongly correlated with communal affiliation. The four provinces that make up the country's Sunni heartland account for fully 85 percent of all insurgent attacks; Iraq's other 14 provinces, where almost 60 percent of the Iraqi population lives, account for only 15 percent of the violence. The overwhelming majority of the insurgents in Iraq are indigenous Sunnis, and the small minority who are non-Iraqi members of al Qaeda or its affiliates are able to operate only because Iraqi Sunnis provide them with safe houses, intelligence, and supplies. Much of the violence is aimed at the Iraqi police and military, which recruit disproportionately from among Shiites and Kurds. And most suicide car bombings are directed at Shiite neighborhoods, especially in ethnically mixed areas such as Baghdad, Diyala, or northern Babil, where Sunni bombers have relatively easy access to non-Sunni targets"
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20060301faessay85201-p10/stephen-biddle/seeing-baghdad-thinking-saigon.html

"After U.S. forces overthrew Saddam in 2003, Sunni officers were initially dismissed, but belatedly invited back into leadership positions. Some have not returned, and are believed to be leading the insurgency against the Shiite-led government. An estimated 200,000 disaffected Sunni youths are the recruiting pool for the insurgency, John Reid, Britain's defense minister, said last week during a visit to Washington."
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/12/news/sunnis.php

"That policy guaranteed the acceleration of already growing tendencies in Iraqi society toward sectarian and ethnic violence – and possibly toward civil war as well as forms of "ethnic cleansing." Many of the Shi'ite troops and officers in the military and police commando units of the new Iraqi military are, in fact, motivated by hatred not just of Sunni insurgents but of the Sunni population as a whole. One fine reporter in Iraq, Knight Ridder's Tom Lasseter has, in fact, explored this new Iraqi reality on the ground in ways no other American reporter has thought to do. Last October, he "embedded" himself for a week in a unit of Lt. Gen. Petraeus's new military, the all-Shi'ite 1st Brigade, the first Iraqi unit to be given its own area of operations and often considered the template for the future of the army. What he discovered was a purely sectarian outfit obsessed with revenge against Sunnis. His is a chilling account of the violent Shi'ite hatred of Sunnis that drives Iraqi military operations in Sunni neighborhoods and essentially guarantees that the insurgency will only grow fiercer in response.

Lasseter found that Shi'ite officers and troops want to inflict death on a far broader swath of Sunnis than simply those insurgents they can identify. Their motive is clearly to intimidate the Sunni population into silence and acquiescence, while at the same time satisfying their own lust for revenge for past acts of oppression by the formerly powerful Sunni minority. One sergeant told Lasseter that, in 2006, the Shi'ites would "do what Saddam did – start with five people from each neighborhood and kill them in the streets and go from there." "
http://www.antiwar.com/engelhardt/?articleid=8453

I could go on with link after link describing the ethnic makeup of the insurgent forces, however I rather suspect that you are not interested in the reality of the situation.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. There's no question most of the insurgent forces fighting the Iraq gov't are Sunni
But attacks against our troops and sectarian warfare against Sunni population groups have been and still -are- carried out by Shia, and it makes perfect sense for the Shia to receive arms and aid from Iran, as it's in that nation's interest to crowd out any Sunni influence in a future Iraqi gov't. I'm not arguing the Shia are the bulk of the insurgency, but that Shia forces have long been attacking our troops and Sunni populations, and that Iran would have to be braindead not to capitalize on this. I understand you're reacting against the inevitable administration use for this as an excuse to escalate aggression towards Iran, but it is still deeply stupid to think that Iran doesn't aid Shia militias in Iraq.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. You are now attempting to shift the terms of the debate.
"But attacks against our troops and sectarian warfare against Sunni population groups" - sorry I will not play that game. The insurgency refers to attacks against the official Iraqi government and our occupation army, not to the sectarian violence that constitutes the civil war in Iraq. The insurgency, as I have amply documented, is almost entirely sunni. Your original claim is false.
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. I agree. The assumption that they are is wrong. Iran is working with the Iraqi government.
There is no proof whatsoever that Iran is working with the insurgents. Thjey would be crazy to. There is no need and it would only cause trouble for Iran.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2707283#2710139
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
14. Thanks Warren
People like to repeat a lot of bullshit.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
9. There is something bothersome about the blatant double standards
You're supposed to get all angry about it when they do it, but overlook that the U.S. does it. The really insane part is - do the freepers think the other countries accept the double standard against themselves? Sometimes * and freeper-types speak as if they do.

It's just a little hypocritical to in essence say "How dare you try to make nuclear weapons?" to Iran or any other country.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Our stance against nuclear proliferation is harmed by that as well
Insofar as we do precious little to muscle around countries with an aresnal of nukes. It gives nations unfriendly to us a major incentive to join the nuclear club--witness our docile pose towards China after they fissionized.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 04:26 AM
Response to Original message
13. The difference?
There is clear proof that the US is slaughtering Iraqis. The Brits say they have no evidence of Iran providing weapons in Iraq and since they are closest to tehborder they should know.
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