Putting a male face on the fertility/abortion issue.

[Cleita]

Something has been happening in our family circle that's coming to a crescendo concerning a young male relative (almost thirty) who can't seem to keep it in his pants.

This kid first got his girlfriend pregnant in high school. In spite of saner adults begging the girl to get an abortion or at least to postpone marriage until some maturity had set in, they got married as soon as they where legally able to. They had a little boy and a year later another little boy.

In a few years the boy strayed and started to date another girl. A divorce followed and he moved in with the new girlfriend who soon had a little girl. Well they stayed together for six years until one day he abruptly moved out. It turns out he had been seeing a new girl behind this girl's back.

So we recently met the new girl friend who is, you guessed it, pregnant. They are living together and planning to move to her home town. Well, a joke started passing around the relatives that for his birthday everyone should send him a box of condoms. However, grandpa who is sick of what his son is doing, yelled at him to get a vasectomy to stop breeding kids he can't afford to raise, or else he would be disowned.

This has erupted into a family feud of those who agree and those who say that since he's almost thirty no one can make that choice for him. It occurred to me how similar this is to the my body, my choice arguments for women's fertility choices.

So DUers I leave it up to you. Does anyone have a right to make this guy get a vasectomy or should he be left free to populate the earth with kids he can't afford to raise? Exactly, what are his rights and where do they end, not only legally, but about his inheritance?

[benddem]

1. something is

wrong either with him, or the women he gets pregnanat. Are they all in the dark about his track record?
Does anyone tell them? I doubt that since he shows absolutely no responsibilty a lecture about condoms would be useful. I'm glad he isn't in my family. Sorry!

[pitohui]

9. something is wrong with this dude AND the women involved w. him

losers are drawn to other losers, haven't you noticed? dude's 30, he's heard of rubbers, and these women don't seem to have parents putting him in jail for child molesting, so i got to presume they're old enough to know the facts of life also

anyone can make a mistake, but i'm with grandpa, it's time to cut loose a repeat loser who is doing nothing but creating more and more family drama with no concern for the damage done

[Cleita]

16. The lack of responsibility is a big issue.

This is why grandpa got fed up. Other family members and mostly him have been having to help out the abandoned families with money. He does work but he doesn't earn enough for everyone.

[pitohui]

22. of course, grandpa can't afford to keep supporting all of these families

he should cut them all off, go somewhere, and live his own life before it's too late, these little kids will long outlive him, they will eat his entire retirement and his entire ability to care for himself when he's older if he doesn't put a stop to it

who hasn't seen this happen to other families? the one sex addict or drug addict destroys an entire extended family's financial resources because nobody has the spine to say no


the son will never grow up and assume any responsibility as long as he knows someone else is going to do it -- indeed why should he?

i hope you support grandpa in his decision, i really think it's the right thing to do

what happens when grandpa is too old or too sick to care for himself and his funds have been exhausted? who will take him in? not the son who is a bum, that is for sure

encourage your grandfather to keep his damn money!

[calimary]

37. Whoa -

"...the son will never grow up and assume any responsibility as long as he knows someone else is going to do it -- indeed why should he?"

Sounds exactly like george w. bush.

BTW - I'm with grandpa on this. It's time to cut one's losses here, I think. One mistake is a mistake. But how many has this guy racked (or would that be knocked) up by now? Besides, maybe yanking the money MIGHT get his attention. But on second thought, this kid sounds hopeless (aged 30 alright, but sure doesn't act like an adult) but successful enough to find willing enablers to play along with him and allow themselves to be fooled. Sounds exactly like the followers of george w. bush.

Ah, me. Human foibles. Sorry to hear this, and I feel bad for anyone who has to go through this.

[MADem]

2. They don't have the "right" but hell...get him drunk and grab the staple gun!

Jeeez, I guess many families, unfortunately, have a Kevin Federline in the family tree!!! We have a cousin way off on one branch who just can't stick to one woman and has two here, one there, and one over there...I think he's settled down, fortunately.

Gramps should rewrite the will to give ole Fuckstick five bucks (that way old BouncyBoy can't claim that Gramps "forgot" him) , and split the rest of the Humper's "share" between all of his rugrats when they reach 18.

[Cleita]

17. This strikes me as the best solution, but I'm keeping my

opinions to myself right now.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

31. Give him five bucks and put in a contest clause, as lawyers call it.

Give him five bucks in the will, and put in a contest clause. A contest clause means that anyone who is a beneficiary of the will and decides to contest it in court, will get NOTHING. Nada, Niente.

Easy to do. Simple.

And yes I am a lawyer.

[MADem]

38. There ya go! NT

[alarimer]

3. I don't know

I would guess the grandfather could disinherit him if he is so inclined. It just sounds like this guy is very immature. Obviously he has made bad choices. And those kids are the ones that will suffer. Hopefully their mothers will meet other guys who are more mature and willing to raise this guy's kids because he is not capable of it.

[porphyrian]

4. It's his body, and no one has a right to tell him what to do with it.

But those kids are at least half of his responsibility, and unless he's rich, he's a fucking idiot. One baby (and alimony, I presume), is expensive enough, let alone three (or however many he's helped make, I lost count). Terms for inheritance are up to the parents, I believe, though I think it would be better to just cut him out than to make it contingent upon vasectomy, which crosses the line.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. The government cannot force him to get a vasectomy

The courts can only demand that he pay child support for the children he has fathered, and to impose penalties if he does not. The only reason they have this power is that the court is protecting the child's right to be supported. Sadly, many men breed indiscriminately because they don't like to use protection and don't want to "lose their virility" by having the operation. But kindly remember that, unless he rapes a woman, each of his partners has had a choice to make. If the current girlfriend knows his track record--and his financial obligations--and has gone ahead with having a child, she is likely to be very sorry in a few years. But unless she abandons the child or abuses it, government has NO SAY in what she does, any more than they have a say in what this relative of yours does.

That being said, his father can disown him if he wishes, for this reason or any other reason or no reason at all. Personally, if it were me, I'd will the money to the children he has fathered and not to him; perhaps setting up trust funds or college funds for them that he cannot touch.

The point in the choice debate, to me, is the extent to which the government has the right to interfere in our lives when it comes to creating or choosing not to create children.

[Akoto]

6. Well, as a guy ...

My opinion is that he doesn't need a vasectomy so much as he needs self-control. Forcing him to get a vasectomy because he produces so many children is like, well, forcing a woman to get her tubes tied for the same reason.

On either side of the gender fence, if the person is willingly engaging in the act and having kids as a result, that is an issue of responsibility (or lack thereof). There are more dangers than just pregnancy, too. Even a sterilized man can spread STDs.

[Cleita]

18. This was kind of what I thought about too.

Theoretically he has a right to do what he wants with his body, but I sure wish he'd think of using condoms. I think that this is at the bottom of the issue. How do we get him to take responsibility for his fertility and ferchrissakes use a condom!

[SheilaT]

7. Just as no woman should be forced

to undergo sterilization against her will, so should no man.

But, men (and women) should be responsible for the children they bring on to this planet. At various times here on DU there have been some VERY lively discussions in which men will cry "foul" on a woman who (as they see it) tricks him into fatherhood, takes him for as much money as they can, and don't allow him access to the kids. Women will bitterly complain about men who walk away from responsibility and never pay child support, never want to visit their kids. The truth is, no one can force another person to behave like an adult, to shoulder responsibilities.

The relative you're describing is scum, but as someone else has already noted, haven't his more recent girlfriends figured out what he is from his track record? People will delude themselves when they're "in love". Many, maybe most of us have at one point or another, but if we're lucky we didn't wind up with anything as permanent as a child to raise or support.

A box of condoms is not a bad idea.

Oh, yeah, and Grandpa should definitely write him out of the will, instead designating his share to be held in trust for the grandchildren until they are of age.

[pitohui]

8. grandpa is an adult and is damn well free to disinherit anyone he wants to

as long as grandpa is of sound mind, he has the right to make out his will and leave his money to anyone he pleases

i too would disinherit this irresponsible jerk who is populating the earth with more loser genes

as adults we have the right to tell any other adult anything we like and that other adult has the right to tell us to fuck off

grandpa has the right to disinherit, in this case, he really has a moral obligation if that is what it will take to stop this boy (i can't call him a man for he has never taken the responsibility of a man) from breeding children he won't care for

good for grandpa, i say

as for this irresponsible creep, sure he has a right to keep breeding more kids with no future, and that is his choice -- he seems to live by the creed "i do as i please and who gives a fuck about anybody else" so why the hell should grandpa give a fuck about him any more, he has had his heart broken one too many times methinks

it's "my body, my choice" and i have to live w. the financial consequences of my choices

why is this person of thirty not supposed to live with the financial consequences of his choices, oh yeah, that's right, the almighty jesus y chromosome, how could i forget?

nobody can MAKE the creep get a vasectomy, but if grandpa can buy this creep a conscience and influence him to get a vasectomy, he deserves a damn medal of honor in my books

[yella_dawg]

13. "that's right, the almighty jesus y chromosome"

Feeling a bit sexist this evening, are we?

He's one irresponsible man. But I guess we should forget that three irresponsible women had the opportunity to use birth control in this situation too.

Our society has problems. This story is a good example of one of them. Blaming men exclusively won't solve the problem. Men and women have to wake up and take responsibility before there can be real change.

[pitohui]

21. the entire original post is based on a sexist assumption, get it now?

if the person in the story was a daughter acting like a slut who was being disinherited by grandpa, it wouldn't be a post on DU, because everybody knows that grandpa has the right to disinherit a female who was behaving badly and bringing disgrace on the family name


there would be no family fued over grandpa disinheriting if it were a woman doing this, and we all know it, women are disinherited every day to no one's great caring or surprise

it is society that is sexist, because he is a man doing this, he is not supposed to face any consequences and even other family members are arguing that it's somehow wrong and manipulative for grandpa to try to use his influence to stop this crappy behavior

do i really have to put :sarcasm: on every clearly sarcastic post? i try to give people credit for having a minimal ability to think, read, and reason

i'm astonished that you totally misread the point of the post, seems pretty clearcut to me

:shrug:

this kid will never grow up because he has the male chromosome, the rest of the family will badger and enable and stop grandpa from doing something to let this kid hit bottom and stop acting shitty, and sadly their enabling destroys not just the kid's chance to grow up and be a man but the chance of his (many) children to have any example of decent behavior from their father

THAT is sexist

yes, the women are stupid losers too, but they are not relatives of grandpa and he has no real ability to tell them what to do or how to live, they know damn well they wouldn't get any inheritance anyway

you use your influence where you can

grandpa can try to influence his own damn son, he cannot influence every piece of trash who sleeps w. his trashy son, there is a limit to what one person can do -- no where in my post will find any evidence that i think these loser females are superior to this loser male -- they're all losers -- but the poster's question was about the MALE and was even titled "putting a male face on abortion"

[JerseygirlCT]

29. It's not a 50%-er. I'd say both he and the various women

are all 100% responsible.

[Matsubara]

41. Ah, but HE is the one pollinating every flower he sees.

At least these women have a reasonable number of kids (but unfortunate taste in men). The guy has sired kids with THREE WOMEN and there seems to be no end in sight!

Who knows what kind of lines he's feeding these girls. He may be very convincing.

[JerseygirlCT]

43. Well, there is also the fact that apparently, HE'S walking, and

they're dealing with the kids, so yeah, it's certainly uneven.

My point is just that ideally both partners are 100% responsible for preventing an unwanted pregnancy. If someone told you he'd had a vasectomy, would you believe him right off? Likewise, if someone you don't know all that well yet says she'd on the pill, does that mean you toss the condom?

Personally, that all indicates to me the preference for sex only in really committed relationships. But I guess I'm old-fashioned that way.

[ismnotwasm]

10. I come from a background

Where this is not unusual. My son's father--who is now dead--"fathered" several children,--I don't think he knew how many-- and had minimal contact with them. My son was his "first" On the other hand his last child before he died 19 years later was with a women who had 8 children. His was the 9th. She had custody of only a couple of them.

I suppose it's not necessary to say, but perhaps it is, they both came from a poverty stricken background, unimaginably poor, ignorant, petty criminals -- alcoholics and drug addicts being raised by alcoholics and drug addicts. And what will become of the next generation? Perhaps the same thing, although not the case of my son.

So no, forced vasectomies are not an answer. Personally, that whole concept reminds me of the eugenics movement.


Your Grandfather can do whatever he wants with his money. If I had an abortion and my father said "if you do this, I'm cutting you out of the will"-- Well, what will be will be.

[Swamp Rat]

11. No matter what,

he needs to provide for those children, even if he has to work 2-3 jobs for the next 18 years.

As for his inheritance, it should be divided among his children.

En serio, el dinero del abuelo se debe dar directamente a los nietos, saltando a padre.

[Cleita]

20. You are so right.

I think grandpa has given up on making him responsible. He just wants him to stop breeding more babies and then leaving them when something else comes along.

[unblock]

12. he has a right to be irresponsible; grandpa has a right to disinherit

at least as far as the government is concerned. as far as morality is concerned, both require greater reflection. these are grandpa's progeny, like it or not, and they will need money to get by. so cutting him and his many kids out of the will is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, if you will. perhaps grandpa is setting up a trust to help the many kids directly, bypassing the irresponsible philanderer. that would be better.

or maybe grandpa is just making threats and would never really cut him out of the will. wouldn't be the first time a family elder has done THAT!

on edit:
for myself, i could never cut my family out of my will, no matter what. i might not hand them the cash directly; perhaps it might have to go into a trust so that it's used as i wish. but for me, i don't think it's just not my idea of family to cut someone out of the will. everyone has problems, everyone has their weaknesses, everyone has done something shameful.

[rug]

14. The grandfather should give the money to his grandchildren.

[pitohui]

23. no, the grandfather is still living, you know what? grandpa should take care of himself!

when you are old and retired, you do not have any way of getting any more money once it is exhausted, you are SCREWN

unless he is pretty darn rich, grandpa cannot realistically support three different families containing four small children and three useless women, he needs to cut the cord, stop enabling this farce, and let the younger generation work this issue out for themselves

when he has nothing, which of these four women is going to take him in? i guarantee it won't be any of them. and i guarantee the useless son won't help him either

he needs to save himself, the son is only 30, he can still work and change his future

grandpa should not be giving ANYONE a damn dime until he has passed and they get it from his will, otherwise, none of the adults in the situation are going to grow up and set these children an example of how to be anything except bums

grandpa has a right to his own money and for my part i hope he takes a damn six month cruise around the world and has a blast!

[rug]

25. You're right.That was cold. I meant the grandfather should die first.

[Clark2008]

27. Useless women?

Seems to me the first one did the right thing - or tried - and married the guy and tried to have a family with him.

Useless?

She was cheated upon and did the right thing again and divorced his sorry ass.

You might have an argument for the second and third of these women, but the first one wasn't "useless" - just young.

[LiberalArkie]

15. It is not a liberal thing to say, BUT, neuter him.

[alittlelark]

19. Grandpa sounds much more sane than the 'young man'

The inheritance is up to the person who wills it..... cut the kid out - why not? Grandpa is holding all the cards - the 'kid' is holding nothing but bad judgement.

Grandpa seems to be tryng to slap some sense into his b$%ls.

[IChing]

24. Groucho Marx said on "you bet your life"

there was a married couple who had 19 children.
Groucho asked the man why they had so many kids.
The man said it was because he liked his wife. Groucho replied,

"I like my cigar too, but I take it out once in a while."

Unfortunately your relative is not a man who takes responsibility for his actions
and needs an intervention because his behavior is affecting everyone.

[China_cat]

26. You can't force him to be sterilized.

That would be as bad as forced sterilization for women.

But maybe you could get him drunk and have the names of the kids he's not supporting tattooed on his chest under an 'I don't support my offspring' banner (Or maybe an extra one that says "I'm lying when I tell you I'm shooting blanks") so that the next woman couldn't say she hadn't been warned.

[JerseygirlCT]

28. Sounds to me like grandpa offered him a choice

No one is forcing him to get a vasectomy. But taking responsiblity for his own choices might mean being disinherited. His choice.

I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with his behavior, if he's not supporting these kids he keeps making.

[ellenfl]

30. the best thing the mothers of his children

can do is sue him for child support. that might put his penis back in his pants. it's too bad the rw and our courts do not go after delinquent fathers as tenaciously as they go after women who choose and single women on the dole.

i wonder if any of his women made sure he was hiv free before having sex with him. he is totally irresponsible and should get only a mention in any relevant will with bequests going to his offspring, if the testator is so inclined.

ellen fl

[illinoisprogressive]

32. He can do as he pleases but, grandpa has the right to disown him too

[Manifestor_of_Light]

33. I'm the mother of ONE child

And I had to pay child support until that child was out of high school. My ex husband got custody and forced me to pay child support. He was the one with a steady job. He's still working for the same company he started working for in 1981.

I had trouble finding a job and keeping a job. Why did I have to pay him child support? This is because we have equal rights for women in Texas. That is from Spanish law. Women are presumed to have the right to buy and sell property since 1836, the first year we were a republic. This is the other side of equal rights for women.

Then when I got older, I got behind on my child support but never went to jail. Due to my bad health, if I had gone to jail I might have had a stroke and been disabled or died from the stress of it.

My parents constantly nagged me and couldn't understand why I or my new boyfriend couldn't find jobs in the 1990s. We have three degrees each. We each have an associates, and a bachelor's degree. He has a master's (physics) for his final degree.

I have a doctorate for my final degree, in law.

We still couldn't find jobs in spite of our education because the rich were busy destroying the middle class. If we found jobs, they were low paying, high stress jobs that were ruining our health--I've had hypertension since 1990 and can't handle being yelled at at work. I also can't stand up for long periods and have edema because of my hypertension. I looked and looked and looked and got quite depressed. So did my boyfriend.

The last several years of my parents' lives are very painful for me to remember because they were busy bitching at me constantly to find a job. They didn't understand the new rules -- competence and education and skills are liabilities now.
I'm extremely bitter and unhappy about their last years because of their grumpiness and their failure to understand reality.

Hell, if grandpa wanted to help out the children and leave rabbit grandson out of it, he would be perfectly free to grant a lump sum or monthly allowance bequest to the mothers of those children. He would need an administrator, such as a lawyer, to distribute the money over a period of time. He would be free to do that and bypass the father completely. If grandpa is a typical poormouthing, tight-fisted man with money, he will typically be stingy as hell, and the kids who deserve the least will get the most.

My parents tried to cut me off entirely, and I did absolutely nothing bad, other than that I was unable to find a job. I might as well have had a rap sheet, knowing the horrible way they treated me. I still fight those "LOSER" voices in my head.


Otherwise, the great-grandchildren, who are innocent victims, will probably starve.

AND YES, I AM A LAWYER.

[Cleita]

35. You are a woman who is suffering because you proved

that you could be as good as the guys. I am so sorry that you are being beaten down as much as you describe. I don't know how I can change it for you right now, but I will be on your side in trying to.

[NuttyFluffers]

34. it's the father's inheritance money to allot and condition as he chooses

it's his son's choice to choose whether to fulfill those conditions.

both are adults and free to do as they please in this matter.

but if the father really wanted to stop the son i suggest helping the courts get alimony/child support garnishments for the future... there's loyalty to your adult but irresponsible son, and then there's loyalty to your innocent and at-risk current grandchildren. essentially, it's not a hard decision for the brain, even if the heart may balk a bit.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

36. What if the grandson couldn't get a job?

Would he land in jail? Yes, undoubtedly, if somebody filed against him for child support. The courts make absolutely no allowances for unemployment or failure to find a job. So then you're in jail and you're really stuck then.

I say the grandfather should make a bequest of a monthly stipend, indexed to inflation, to the mothers of the great-grandchildren, that is if he truly wants to help his descendants. He needs to consult a lawyer to do that right, and that will cost money. I predict, if he's a typical redneck, it won't happen.

If he's a typical mean-spirited, controlling old tightwad, he won't do it, because he won't be thoughtful enough to think that far ahead, and he won't understand wills and trusts.

The children will starve.

He can give the grandson, in the will, five dollars and put a contest clause in the will as I explained above.

[NuttyFluffers]

45. there was a way to give annual tax free gifts to children/grandchildren...

it was something up to $35,000 or something huge. if the father wants to care for the grandchildren there's quite a few ways to set up funds to support them in the future.

the issue about his son, the one who is making all these grandkids, isn't all that hard. he either bucks up as a responsible adult or faces the consequences, that's it. if he ends up going to jail because he won't bust his ass to take care of his responsibilities, the grandkids, that's most likely his choice. and yes that even includes getting a job. and, as a side benefit, he can't make more grandkids to abandon while in jail. there's really no downside to this. the only hard part is being loving enough to be tough in your love on your son so as to take care of the grandkids.

remember, a net gain of no more abandoned grand kids is a great thing. a net result of grandkids being provided for and your child mending his bad ways is also a great thing. letting the situation go as is and continue to deteriorate is a bad thing. see, easy -- the truth often is.

[donsu]

39. is he paying child support on all these children? Is he rich?

if he isn't supporting any of the kids, he should be in prison.

as for the women - they are ignorant of the realities of life.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

46. so by that logic, I should have been in jail, as a mother who couldn't pay child support.

And could not get a job with 12 years of grade school, 12 years of college and three college degrees, and plenty of job skills and experience???

[donsu]

47. what logic? if he had money and wasn't paying he deserves the

law coming down on him. what does that have to do with your situation?

[Matsubara]

40. Nobody has the right to force him...

...but your grandpa has every right to disown him if he won't cut the pipes, and I applaud him for it. Your relative is extremely irresponsible, and I'm surprised none of the male relatives in your family have given him a well-deserved ass-kicking yet.

[Jade Fox]

42. No one has the right, but....

your grandfather has the right to disown him. Seems to me a little intervention is called for.

No one can force your irresponsible relative to get a vasectomy, of course. Nor should they be allowed to.

[lies and propaganda]

44. i dont know about a vasectomy but he should be punched.

thats certain.