LA Times: Boy, 9, shoots and kills his 2-year-old brother in North Hills

[marmar]

A 9-year-old North Hills boy accidentally shot and killed his 2-year-old brother in what police are describing as a tragic accident.

Los Angeles police said they responded to a shooting in the 16700 block of Parthenia Street about 5:50 p.m. Friday and found a 2-year-old boy with a single gunshot wound to the upper torso.

The boy's 9-year-old brother told detectives he had accidentally shot the toddler while playing with a loaded firearm. The toddler was taken to a hospital, where he died shortly after arrival.

KTLA reported that the older boy had climbed inside a closet and found the gun. It is not clear whether the gun was inside a locked case. Police said no charges were pending. ..........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-toddler-shot-20100711,0,1654464.story

[slackmaster]

1. In before some fucking idiot posts "if only the other child had a gun..."

Any volunteers? Good. Let's try to keep this one serious.

:argh:

But seriously, teaching basic gun safety in public schools could help reduce this kind of tragedy. The person who was responsible for that weapon should have known better than to leave it, loaded, where young children could get it. My dad made that reality abundantly clear to me when I was 10 years old. But now too many people don't have the benefit of a good firearms safety instructor.

BTW - California does have a "safe storage" law under which the person who failed to secure the weapon can be charged with a criminal offense. That's OK, but education is more likely IMO to prevent that kind of event from happening.

[Daninmo]

28. I think it is crazy

It's Crazy that we don't teach gun safety in the schools. I also believe swimming should be a mandatory class in elementary school also, BTW.. Good grief, I think it would be more believable kids would practice gun safety than the ones taught abstinence or safe sex. Guessing there are no scientific studies so no way to prove it.

Sex, drugs, and even Illegal Immigration for that matter have laws concerning them. How's that working out? Too many people are kept ignorant and scared of guns. Just because you understand them doesn't mean you have to own or use them.

[blondeatlast]

31. Of course, because public schools are SO well-funded lately.

:eyes:

[Missy Vixen]

56. Thank you for that comment.

Oh, let's stop funding even MORE public school programs, and get on that "gun safety" course for all right away!

After all, we must keep worshiping at the shrine of the Holy Gun.

:eyes:

The parents involved should be prosecuted if that gun was not secured properly, PERIOD. I'm sick of reading these stories.

[AnArmyVeteran]

102. It would be trading teaching kids about guns rather than science.

While well meaning, if we used our limited resources to teach about guns we'd have to stop teaching kids about other useful things like science, math or reading.

I just don't get this obsession with having guns. The NRA would like to see every man, woman and child in America possessing a gun. They are void of any rational thought. They even supported guns made in different colors that could easily fool children into thinking they were toys. I believe the gun manufacturer finally stopped producing them, but what kind of sick mind would dream up a yellow, blue, pink or red colored guns in the first place? The NRA is a completely irresponsible and irrational organization.

[slackmaster]

140. I think that is a false dilemma

Teaching basic gun safety takes at most a couple of hours. I've done it over 100 times.

[Mimosa]

117. ITA.

I grew up in 2 households (my grandmother's and mama's houses) Granddaddy had his shotgun and rifle for self defense and shooting, my stepfather had guns. As little kids we were taught to avoid the guns. We obeyed.

But when I was 9 or 10 my stepfather taught me to shoot with his Army carbine. Even after learning to shoot I had no desire to go find where the guns were kept. (I knew where granddaddy's shotgun was kept). We were taught to avoid the guns, plain and simple. We were taught we could hurt ourselves or others if we tried to play with them.

[X_Digger]

186. It removed the fascination though, and replaced it with respect, I'd imagine.

If you remove the 'forbidden' / 'taboo', and replace it with healthy respect, you go a long way toward making kids safe.

[11 Bravo]

123. 3/4 of the planet is water, so I get the swimming thing.

If 3/4 of the people on the planet are packing heat, will you be happy then? (I ask as a gun owner who thinks the NRA ia a bunch of fucking lunatics.)

[K8-EEE]

151. No 100% of all human beings on earth need to have guns damn it!

NRA said so, because they just love people I guess...

[KansasVoter]

44. My "Gun Enthusiast" friend!

[AnArmyVeteran]

98. NRA RESPONSE: If the 2 year old had a gun this might not have happened.

I know a conservative christian who didn't have health insurance for his wife or three very little kids, but he wanted to buy a handgun and a concealed weapon permit. He was going to pay at least $500 for the gun and then take a class and buy a permit. He whines about liberals not being responsible, but he didn't have insurance for anyone in his family, yet he was going to buy a damned gun.

He said he wanted a gun to protect himself. But to do that you need to keep the gun without a trigger guard on it because a gun is useless if you are assaulted and you have to unlock the trigger guard. So the gun would be unlocked and it would be loaded with three little kids around him most of the time. Just about the only place he goes is to church several times a week so I guess he needs a gun to defend himself from his fellow right wing christians.

Bobby Jindel in Louisiana just signed a bill to make it legal to carry guns in churches. It sounds like right wingers are expecting a lot of gun fights at their right wing churches if they feel they have to arm themselves before they attend 'services'. What in the hell are conservatives learning in their mutant churches? It doesn't sound like anything Jesus would condone. Didn't he say turn the other cheek? Or did he say if someone slaps your cheek take your guns out and start blasting away?

The right wing madness continues...

[Pavulon]

115. I know a trauma surgeon

lots of engineers (materials myself) and others who have advanced degrees, pay 50 to 60k a year in taxes and vote D who own many guns and shoot regularly in IDPA and or IPSC 50% of the us owns guns, many of us live in nice neighborhoods, drive german cars, and vacation in places like Sharm el-Sheikh.

Dont swing a broad brush.

[AnArmyVeteran]

124. I understand, but I was talking about conservative christians.

I don't see a problem with owning guns, but I don't understand people being fascinated with them. I know there are responsible gun owners, but there are also very irresponsible gun owners. I believe the NRA is a fanatical organization that feeds off of the fear primarily of conservatives who are constantly told they are going to have their guns taken away. About 10% of voters use that single issue to cast their votes against democrats, regardless if the republican candidate is qualified or not. If those 10% hadn't blindly voted for Bush we would have been spared all of the devastation caused by Bush and conservatives between 2001 and 2009.

BTW, My dad used to own a gas station. One of his frequent customers was a deputy sheriff. The deputy always talked about his gun and liked to show it off every time he came into my dad's store. But one day my dad asked the deputy, "What are you doing with such a big gun?" The deputy answered, "If any nigger rapes my daughter I'm going to shoot him!". My dad responded by saying, "You mean it's okay if a white guy does it (rapes his daughter)?" The deputy's mind short-circuited and he was unable to respond to my dad's question. The deputy left bewildered and unable to speak. His small, bigoted mind was just fried by my dad's words. My dad was brilliant and was always able to turn a phrase to outwit people, especially dimwitted racist-gun toters. This is the kind of people I'm talking about. They are fixated on their guns like it was their penis. I doubt if their IQs are much higher than the caliber of their guns.

[zanana1]

163. Well, that's just swell for you.

But it doesn't give you a bigger voice than little ole' US.

[Pavulon]

195. Nope, that would come from the second being incorporated

so you will have a better chance trying to convince your local swimming pool to ban methodists. good luck.

[slackmaster]

143. Cool story, brah

[lapislzi]

182. My idiot ex brother in law

RW Florida resident...six children in a two-bedroom house...and owns more firearms than you can shake a stick at. Can someone tell me why this man NEEDS a grenade launcher? Having been a gun owner once myself, I'm all for owning firearms if you're responsible with them, but a grenade launcher?

Can't afford dental care for his kids, but somehow there's money to buy a grenade launcher.

I call "priorities screwed up!"

[slackmaster]

185. Without a grenade, a grenade launcher is a harmless hollow tube

Or a cylindrical fixture attached to the end of a rifle.

Grenades are heavily regulated.

[lapislzi]

190. All the more reason

Why on earth would he choose to spend his hard-earned money on such a ridiculous contraption? At the expense of his children's welfare? (Also shows you what I know about gun laws!)

Oh, and the wife was just fine with this, too.

[slackmaster]

196. Personal choice

I believe in it.

Oh, and the wife was just fine with this, too.

You should be just fine with it too, because it's really none of your business.

BTW, if it's an actual dedicated grenade launcher, like the Vietnam-era M79 known as the Blooper, it's regulated under the National Firearms Act as a destructive device, and may have great value as a collector's item.

It may turn out to be a good investment, which in the long run could be good for his family.

[lapislzi]

211. Never claimed it was my business

But I reserve the right to be disgusted by his choices, especially when I see his kids going without and his wife working 80-hour weeks so he can indulge his little hobby.

BTW, I always kept my mouth shut around him. Because it is none of my business, and out of respect for my ex.

[slackmaster]

212. You won't talk to him to his face about it, but you are content to gossip about him

Passive aggression.

[lapislzi]

215. OK. First of all, it wouldn't have done a bit of good.

Second of all, he's my EX brother in law. I have no dog in that hunt any more, although I still feel sorry for his kids.

Third, he was my ex's brother. I had no wish to cause ill will in the family. It was best left alone, as he's a pugnacious son of a bitch and I didn't need more crap in my life, then or now.

And, I continue to reserve the right to be disgusted by his behavior and the behavior of those like him.

Deal with it.

[spin]

187. Obviously your title is sarcasm ...

The NRA has a program called "Eddie Eagle" to train young children on what to do if they encounter a firearm.

The Eddie Eagle GunSafe® Program teaches children in pre-K through third grade four important steps to take if they find a gun. These steps are presented by the program's mascot, Eddie Eagle®, in an easy-to-remember format consisting of the following simple rules:

If you see a gun:

STOP!
Don't Touch.
Leave the Area.
Tell an Adult.
http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/

There are ways to secure a firearm when it is not on your person. You might suggest to your acquaintance that he buy an inexpensive lock box with an electronic key pad. Amazon.com sells this inexpensive model for $48.00.


http://www.amazon.com/First-Alert-3035DF-Digital-Security/dp/B000MPO6OY/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1278949623&sr=8-6

Many states allow concealed carry inside a church and churches have been attacked by shooters.

Suspects sought in California church shooting
February 15, 2010 5:48 p.m. EST

(CNN) -- Police are seeking a pair of suspects in a Sunday church service shooting in Richmond, California, that left two teenagers injured, though authorities are still looking for a motive in what they say was a targeted operation.

Police believe they have identified at least two of the three hooded men who entered New Gethsemane Church of God in Christ about 12:30 p.m. Sunday. Amid a congregation of about 100, one of them opened fire.

"We're hoping we can make an arrest sometime in the near future," Richmond police spokeswoman Sgt. Bisa French told CNN.

Police are withholding the suspects' names. French said they're in their late teens or early 20s and live in Richmond, about 12 miles north of Oakland.

Church officials say the two congregants injured on Sunday, age 14 and 19, are brothers. "We're not sure if those two victims were targeted, but someone definitely in that general area where the victims were was targeted," French said.

The victims are expected to make full recoveries, police said.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/15/california.church.shooting/index.html

How Many Lives Did The Concealed-Carry Licensee Save?
December 11, 2007

Jeanne Assam carried her pistol with her to church on Sunday. She did so legally, having received a license to carry a concealed weapon. If a weapon in church seems incongruous, it also became providential on this particular Sunday, as Assam stopped an assault that may have killed many more people than it did (via Memeorandum and many CapQ readers):

Assam said she believes God gave her the strength to confront Murray, keeping her calm and focused even though he appeared to be twice her size and was more heavily armed.

Murray was carrying two handguns, an assault rifle and over 1,000 rounds of ammunition, said Sgt. Jeff Johnson of the Colorado Springs Police Department.

"It seemed like it was me, the gunman and God," she said.

Assam worked as a police officer in downtown Minneapolis during the 1990s and is licensed to carry a weapon. She attends one of the morning services and then volunteers as a guard during another service.

Boyd said Assam was the one who suggested the church beef up its security Sunday following the Arvada shooting, which it did. The pastor credited the security plan and the extra security for preventing further bloodshed.

Murray didn't show up to shoot a couple of people and call it a day. Two handguns, an assault rifle, and over a thousand rounds of ammunition would have equaled a church full of corpses had Assam and others not been able to defend themselves and their fellow parishioners. Before Murray had a chance to really open up on what he assumed was a defenseless congregation, Assam used her training and preparation to save dozens of lives, at the least.
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/016276.php

As for the comment on Christ's advise to turn the other cheek, let me point out Luke 22:35-38

Then Jesus asked , “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered. He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied. (NIV)

[zanana1]

2. I am SO tempted to comment on this.

But the good ole'boys from the gun forum will be here soon, shootin' it up and declarin' me anti-gun and unpatriotic. Besides, I think the article speaks for itself.

[spartan61]

5. And as the gun totin population

insist on guns being allowed in public places, i.e. churches, rallys, state parks, etc., we will see more and more tragic "accidents." All of which could have and should have been prevented. I'm sure when the Constitution was written about "right to bear arms," the authors didn't mean everyone should carry a gun to Sunday School just in case someonr gives you a dirty look and you get to shoot them because of it. This gun thing is really getting out of hand. OK, feel free to blast away at me, but I still hate guns. My heart is breaking for the family whose child was killed by his sibling. They will never get over this.

Hey, Zanana1, I'm right there with you. Guess we are both anti-gun and unpatriotic.

[zanana1]

7. Spartan, it's good to have a friend in this fight.

I'm sure you've seen what happens when somebody has the nerve to criticize guns here. They're ganged up on from that "other" forum.

[slackmaster]

11. Blaming guns makes no sense, because they are inanimate objects

Behavior is the issue.

[divideandconquer]

29. Heroin is an inanimate object and so is a hand grenade

Our gun culture is a national tragedy and embarrassment. Someday we'll have a non crazy supreme court.

[slackmaster]

30. Thank you for your deeply thoughtful, constructive contribution

:rofl:

[divideandconquer]

34. It did turn your "argument" into a joke, thanks for the aknowledgement of that

There are lots of inanimate objects that shouldn't exist or should be extremely regulated. I don't think the general public should have fireworks either.

[slackmaster]

36. How about something more specific than "shouldn't exist or should be extremely regulated"?

Or are you just raging impotently at a problem you have no idea how to solve?

[divideandconquer]

39. Japan solved it

No guns, no gun crime.

[slackmaster]

41. In Japan, the police can enter your home to inspect it at any time without a warrant

If that's the kind of society you want to live in, maybe you should consider moving there.

[Bonobo]

120. Article 35 of the Japanese Constitution. You are full of wind.

Article 35.　The right of all persons to be secure in their homes, papers and effects against entries, searches and seizures shall not be impaired except upon warrant issued for adequate cause and particularly describing the place to be searched and things to be seized, or except as provided by Article 33.
捜索又は押収は、権限を有する司法官憲が発する各別の令状により、これを行ふ。
Each search or seizure shall be made upon separate warrant issued by a competent judicial officer.

[slackmaster]

141. Thanks for the information. I stand corrected.

But Japan is a police state compared to the USA.

[Bonobo]

142. Again, that is utterly untrue.

What you see as 'compliance' (your negative slant) is merely a peaceful society that knows how to get along with each other.

Law abiding citizens follow laws and, as such, do what they feel is their part in seeing that things stay that way.

If it means agreeing to let a cop check your bag, it is no problem for the average Japanese person.

That does not imply "fear" or the type of coercion you think it does. You are applying American values to Japanese society erroneously.

[slackmaster]

144. I spent a week there once. It was very interesting, it's a beautiful country.

You can have it.

[Bonobo]

145. Thanks. I love it.

I feel safe and happy and content here.

I also feel that the Japanese are much more emotionally mature than the avg. American who must have it all "their way".

[zanana1]

152. Bonobo; Thank you for your thoughtful point of view.

Pro-gun people here are so "trained" by the NRA on how to argue their case, they muddy up the waters instead of actually having a conversation. You may notice that they all use the same talking points and statistics. That tells us something, does it not? They also have their own version of the Second Amendment. They interpret the Constitution the way religious fanatics interpret the bible; their way.

[Bonobo]

121. That is not true. I live in Japan.

Provide a link or admit you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

[Pavulon]

100. Nope. They are on parity with the swiss.

check the stats bucko.

[divideandconquer]

107. Any links or are you just makung it up?

[cowman]

108. This poster

never makes things up.

[zanana1]

154. Are you joined at the hip?

Or does your statement "he never makes things up" have something more to do with the fact that he agrees with you?

[Pavulon]

112. Numbers and links..

Depending on the year there is variance but this is pretty much the result. I am sure you know that 20% of the swiss population has ready access to military weapons.


Rank Countries Amount
# 1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
# 2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
# 3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
# 4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
(hugo has some work to do)
# 56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
# 57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
# 58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
# 59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
# 60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
# 61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
# 62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people


http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

[Bonobo]

126. So "on par" is now redefined as being "half"? nt

[Pavulon]

128. Being less than the number of people who choke themselves pulling their pud

in the US. Itty bitty numbers, considering the swiss have machine guns and ready access.

Here are some suicide rates to ponder. Detergent kills you as dead as a bullet.

http://www.suicide.org/international-suicide-statistics.html

[Bonobo]

129. How does suicide have anything to do with the price of tea in China?

You sad "on par" but the number is half of what Switzerland is.

[Pavulon]

135. Rates vs bodies. 637 Japan, 213 swiss. Hmm, what does that mean? They still stack bodies..

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders

[divideandconquer]

198. Ever hear about the term percapita? Swiss are twice as high percapita

:rofl:

<http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita>

[Pavulon]

201. hmm. Laugh you ass but learn to count. 600 > 200. Japan wins the murder race!

[divideandconquer]

202. Can't have a debate with gun "enthusiasts", they sure have different way at looking at statistics

America has too big a bell curve!:rofl:

[Pavulon]

209. Blah, 600 > 200. I said on par, not per cap. But hey numbers dont lie..(nt)

[zanana1]

153. Are you considering a move to Switzerland?

I think you'd love it there. Bon voyage!

[Pavulon]

171. No, just changing the laws here..

I like it here, I grew up here, and enjoy my RIGHTS under the 2nd that are now incorporated by the 14th.. But I hear japan is nice if all the scary guns make you feel the need to move.

[divideandconquer]

199. Guns aren't scary, the "people" who own and promote them are

[Pavulon]

200. Next time you hit an ER named after a big NCAA basketball team

you may meet my wife. She will be the one saving your life after some drunk hits you and smashes your brain. She is also an ipsc b shooter.

Ignorance is scary.

[divideandconquer]

203. I prefer living next to illegal Mexican aliens than white suburban CCW owners and NRAer's

I've found that they're better people. I bet a lot of people feel this way.

[Pavulon]

210. The proper response to both positions is blah.

your choice of where to live and my choice to own and carry a hun concealed are both irrelevant to society at large.

[Moochy]

214. Does he come with a horde?

does he sit in your pocket? Where do you keep the miniature horses?

[KansasVoter]

45. LOL....I can't believe you still use that excuse

[slackmaster]

49. Holding people responsible for their actions is an "excuse" to you?

:crazy:

[Hansel]

89. Yes, the parent's behavior in this case.

The 9 year old should have never had access to a loaded gun.

[slackmaster]

173. I'm glad so many of us actually get it

Thanks Hansel.

[Pavulon]

12. What new gun law would prevent this? Should the law they broke be enforced?

IE not locking their weapon. The majority of gun laws are designed to fool people into thinking some action is being taken to decrease crime and protect them. Statistics have shown that all those laws have no causation to those things.

All they do is piss off people who vote on the issue.

The fight is over, its like saying you have a friend to help you keep jews and blacks out of your country club..

Time to look at root cause.

[divideandconquer]

40. 5 to 4 court decision solve nothing

[slackmaster]

42. That's not even a sentence

5 to 4 court decision solve nothing

WTF are you blathering about?

[Pavulon]

8. I hate mock turtle necks..

this is a case of criminal neglect. And the parent should be charged. Just like if the kid drowned in a pool or walked in front of a bus while they were not doing their jobs as parents.

These cases are RARE. More kids drown. The real gun numbers come from suicide and people fighting and funding a drug war.

[zanana1]

155. So it's okey dokey to just add more fatalities with guns?

That argument is so old, overused and nonsensical. It's like saying "Oh well. It's just a few hundred more deaths a year". Tell that to the people who love them.

[slackmaster]

180. The number and rate of accidental shooting deaths has been declining steadily for a long time

I don't expect you to take my word for it. Look it up for yourself.

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html

Who said anything about adding more fatalities?

:crazy:

[Pavulon]

194. Use the same logic to support you wish to ban pools,

drinking, and sport bikes... What do you actually suggest, a gun ban, what is your actual solution to the problem?

[slackmaster]

10. It may surprise you to know that the rate of accidental shooting deaths has been in decline

For about 100 years. Of course you have to have an open mind in order to assimilate data that contradicts your baseless assumptions.

The number of incidents for 2007, the most recent year for which comprehensive data are available, was 613, of which 64 were under age 15. That works out to a rate of .20 per 100,000 population, the lowest rate for any year for which data is available through WISQARS.

Roll your own query at http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html

[cowman]

25. This has been allowed for years

and there has been no "blood flowing in the streets" and my all time favorite " there will be shootouts over parking spaces, matter of fact, as gun ownership has increased, violent crime has decreased, now before anyone flames me for this, I'm not saying that more guns=less crime, but it certainly means more guns does not=more crime

[proteus_lives]

81. "we will see more and more tragic "accidents."

A common BB canard, "blood in the streets"

Yet violent crime continues to fall.

It is unpatriotic to use tragic accidents as an excuse to strip people of their rights.

[hlthe2b]

6. Exactly... rootin', tootin' for more and more guns in every hand.

Sane gun ownership laws, fine. No matter how responsible many owners are, the fact is that no restrictions and THIS is what we have more of. The law of statistics has a sad and devastating result.

[Pavulon]

9. It is ILLEGAL to leave a firearm unsecured here.

not sure about that state but here that tragedy is a CRIMINAL act by the parent. Statistics are your friend, you are safer to send you kid to a home with a gun then to a house with a pool.

[hlthe2b]

13. I wouldn't send my child to either without me being present...

and I would not knowingly send my child to a home where there was any hint of a gun unsecured or where the parents open-carried. Having seen a few posts lately about accidental discharge (or being shot by their own police gun), kindly don't tell me this doesn't occur. Pavulon, I've seen your posts enough to know you are a dedicated and conscientious gun owner, who I can honestly say would not concern me. But, that applies to about 5% of gun owners that I personally know.

[Pavulon]

18. I would be sure my hypothetical kid

went to a home where I knew the parent secured their weapons in a safe or carried on their person. The folks i associate with are responsible owners. I am sure there are morons out there, but I dont meet them. We "police" others. I tell new folks to buy safes before they buy guns. Get trained and compete, not to be "better" shooters, but because safe handling is strictly enforced.

But I would never send my kid to a home I am not familiar with. Pools, chemicals, unsecured car keys are all a problem.

[slackmaster]

14. FWIW (not much), California also has a mandatory trigger lock law

Every firearm sold here must include a trigger lock that has been approved by the state, unless the buyer can certify that he or she owns a gun storage device (e.g. a safe) that has been approved by the state.

[Hansel]

90. That might be because children are more attracted to and actually

swim in pools. And are out in the open.

A more real comparison would be how many kids are killed when guns are openly available, unlocked and loaded compared to how many are killed when they have access to an unfenced, unlocked pool.

I don't think I would feel safer sending my child to a home in which there was an unsecured loaded gun for their friends to play with than one with a pool. If the gun was locked or out of their reach, sure. But I'm guessing the gun is more deadly with all variable being equal.

Also, I taught my kids to swim at a very early age so at least they would have a fighting chance.

[zanana1]

164. And to deny that there is no law of statistics here is foolish. nt

[newfie11]

3. This will haunt that poor child forever. n/t

[xchrom]

4. recommend

[Pavulon]

15. CRIME:It is not clear whether the gun was inside a locked case

the community should press their elected officials to ENFORCE the laws.

Every firearm comes with a MANUAL that clearly states that firearms MUST be secured. These people killed their kid.

[slackmaster]

16. The only gun safety device that really matters is the one between the owner's ears

If that isn't working properly, no mechanical contrivance of law makes any difference.

Education, education, education.

[Pavulon]

21. Agree, however if a weapon is not in my direct control

ie carried or in arms reach, I secure them. Just a habit. I know people with no kids who dont do this. My situation is people are always in and out of the house. I dont want a house guest to pick up a weapon and blow a hole in my tv.

Education in school would save lives.

[slackmaster]

23. I also support tax breaks for purchases of gun safes and other storage devices

The cost of a decent storage solution should not be prohibitive.

Government should do everything in its power to encourage people to make wise choices.

[Pavulon]

26. No doubt, A good safe is $2000

it was a tough sell but the "fire proof" nature helped the cause by securing papers and valuables. Wife locks up her kit bag (narcotics) there as well.

However you can get some simple ones that do the job for $50.

[slackmaster]

27. I invested nearly $3,000 in mine

The peace of mind, knowing that my valuable collection is safe from theft and that my weapons won't end up being used in crimes is worth it.

[Xicano]

32. Or at the very least a trigger lock.

[Missy Vixen]

63. Ooh, gun porn! n/t

[cowman]

91. If those are yours

I'm jealous.

[Xicano]

150. Thanks cowman, but no they're not mine, just a pic I got off of google for the post.

By the way I've read all your post and couldn't agree with you more. Thanks for those posts.


Peace,
Xicano

[zanana1]

168. Please consider the fact that...

We're trying to have a civilization here. Idolizing and lusting after guns makes you sound like a throwback from lawless Old West.

[slackmaster]

181. Nice example of argumentum ad hominem, zanana1

Idolizing and lusting after guns makes you sound like a throwback...

Description of Ad Hominem

Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A's claim is false.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).
Example of Ad Hominem

1. Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a priest."
Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

[cowman]

223. Good

It pissed you off so I did my job

[stray cat]

17. I suspect the punishment of a dead child is more than your laws can dish out

[slackmaster]

20. Yes, and that is why California's "Child Access Prevention" gun storage law is rately enforced

Educating people about the dangers of improperly stored weapons is the answer.

[divideandconquer]

35. If someone actually cared about their kids they wouldn't have guns laying around

This incident should be murder.

[slackmaster]

37. You people are always quick to pick up the stick of the criminal justice system

As if that would prevent this kind of incident from happening.

Punish, ban, confiscate, and punish some more, but don't even bother trying to educate.

[Cid_B]

204. Bah....

I grew up around guns and it was ingrained in me from the beginning. Don't touch... you touch and you die...

Just that easy. My grandpa had guns all over the house and never had a worry because I had been raised properly. Now when the neighbors came by with their uneducated kids he had to make a mad dash through the house.

It really is about education. In college we had rifles that were literally impossible to fire. No pins, no bullets etc.. In my mind I know that I could point this object at someone and nothing would happen. The reality is that I just couldn't do it even as a joke.

[gratuitous]

19. Is just having a law on the books enough?

For the two-year-old in question, apparently not. Perhaps the law needs to be amended to provide for unannounced spot checks no less than once a month. The cost could be borne by a tax on ammunition, so that gun owners would not burden the rest of society with the cost of making sure that they are indeed "responsible law-abiding" gun owners.

I'm not sure what the penalty would be. Perhaps increasing fines for violations, culminating in confiscation for repeat offenders?

[slackmaster]

22. That idea would have a little problem with the Fourth Amendment

Basic gun safety should be taught in public schools, so that people learn about how to safely unload and store firearms before they are old enough to buy one.

[Pavulon]

24. As long as you do the same for pool owners and people who own cars

neighbor kid drove a tahoe through their house last year. Luckily the other kids were not in the path. I STILL see their kids playing in the cars. Hopefully SANS keys.

Educate kids, enforce laws. That person should be convicted. It is not an "accident" An unsecured weapon around kids is criminal negligence.

[zanana1]

161. You've been using the car analogy for years now...

And it still doesn't make sense. You're simply saying that it's OK to add to the number of fatalities in this country with guns. Period. Using that logic, bombs would only add to the amount of fatalaties caused by cars. Please find a new argument.

[Xicano]

33. I have a few questions for the anti gun crowd.

Certainly this is a horrible thing and wouldn't have happened if there were no gun in the house. It also wouldn't have happened if the gun was properly locked up or at the very least a trigger lock placed on it.

But my question is this. Do you value the life of a person more who was tragically killed because there was a gun in the house? Or do you equally value the life of a person who wasn't killed because there was a gun in the house?

I myself was a victim of a home invasion and with certainty I would not be here today if I didn't have a gun to defend myself. A 911 call was made, the 911 officer was on the phone with me, multiple police unites were dispatched immediately to my home, but the police would have been too late to save me. I was able to save myself. What about that side of the issue? Do people have the right to the means to defend themselves?

[divideandconquer]

38. The USA has the highest murder rate of advanced nations by a large margin

What about that? Read it and weep. We're worse than India.
<http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita>

[slackmaster]

43. Our non-gun murder rate is higher than the non-gun murder rates of most "advanced nations" too

The problem isn't guns. It's people.

[KansasVoter]

47. How does your brain determine that? How many murders would be committed without guns?

[slackmaster]

50. In 2007, there were 5,729 homicides committed without firearms in the USA

According to the CDC.

I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that in the absence of firearms, some of the 12,632 that were committed with guns that year would have been accomplished with some other tool.

Of course the idea of magically making all guns cease to exist is ridiculous.

[KansasVoter]

55. So how do you figure out that % Einstein?

[slackmaster]

59. Wow, I called it in reply #57. But if you are interested in actual numbers, here's a link...

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

69. Yet another Straw Man to back up the previous Straw Men

You're not getting anywhere.

Go back to your gun sight where you fit in.

That would be "site", and that is another ad hominem.

Debate is clearly not one of your stronger skills. Neither is spelling.

[KansasVoter]

72. LOL...you dropped to the spelling issue, I guess I win!!

[divideandconquer]

62. So Americans are worse people than Europeans, Australians

Maybe gun owners are worse but I don't think non gun owning Americans are in general, worse than our Australian, Canadian, Kiwi, non gun owning cousins.

[slackmaster]

66. We have a larger population, therefore all of our "bell curves" are wider than in other countries

Our crazies are crazier, our dumbasses are dumber, our creative people are more creative, and we have more of all of them.

[divideandconquer]

75. That is a pathetic answer

What about a European Union bell curve or India's being wide enough? How's about a bell curve of the old Confederacy? That would be a hoot, I bet they would be more evil.

[zanana1]

208. Americans have a far more violent society. nty

We tend to swallow what we see in movies, etc, when the Americans come in to save the day. We're all John Wayne imitators.

[Xicano]

46. Yes unfortunately that is correct.

And all the more reason why people need the means to defend themselves. If anybody believes for one moment that if guns were made illegal that magically somehow criminals would respect THAT law and that somehow THAT prohibition would work where no other prohibitions have worked except to provide a black market. Then there's nothing to say to those folks because they are beyond reason.

[KansasVoter]

48. Jesus. So more murders means we need more guns......

Just checking!

[Xicano]

51. So are you suggesting that criminals would respect the law?

That there wouldn't be a black market for criminals to get their hands on a gun?

Just checking...

[slackmaster]

52. Straw Man Fallacy

Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.
Examples of Straw Man

1. Prof. Jones: "The university just cut our yearly budget by $10,000."
Prof. Smith: "What are we going to do?"
Prof. Brown: "I think we should eliminate one of the teaching assistant positions. That would take care of it."
Prof. Jones: "We could reduce our scheduled raises instead."
Prof. Brown: " I can't understand why you want to bleed us dry like that, Jones."

2. "Senator Jones says that we should not fund the attack submarine program. I disagree entirely. I can't understand why he wants to leave us defenseless like that."

3. Bill and Jill are arguing about cleaning out their closets:
Jill: "We should clean out the closets. They are getting a bit messy."
Bill: "Why, we just went through those closets last year. Do we have to clean them out everyday?"
Jill: "I never said anything about cleaning them out every day. You just want too keep all your junk forever, which is just ridiculous."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

[KansasVoter]

54. So if Japan had legalized CCW their murder rate would drop from

.7 per 100,000 to even lower?

Wow, Shit, Damn, they should jump on that.

[slackmaster]

57. Backing up a Straw Man with another Straw Man

Why don't you just fast-forward to argumentum ad hominem and quit wasting our time?

[KansasVoter]

60. No, just answer the question. Why would the rate not drop if you think guns help!??

[slackmaster]

64. False premise

Go fish.

[KansasVoter]

68. No, once again, you say handguns prevent murders.......

why would it not prevent them in every country?

[slackmaster]

70. Please point out where I have ever said that handguns prevent murders.

Back up your claim, or retract and apologize.

BTW, intentionally misrepresenting what another person has said is not only dishonest, it's a fallacious form of argument. Another argumentum ad hominem.

[KansasVoter]

71. You have said it many times. Now apologize to me.

[slackmaster]

73. Just one link is all you need to prove your ridiculous, dishonest claim about me

Let's see one.

[KansasVoter]

77. I have notified the authorities!

[slackmaster]

78. You are either unwilling or unable to have an honest exchange about this subject

Too bad.

[KansasVoter]

79. I have posted many honest things about the NRA and NRA supporters on this site!

I don't lower myself to spelling errors on any post. That is the chicken shits fall back.

I am not 1% as biased against guns as you "enthusiast" are in favor.

Fact elude you people. The facts from the NRA do not cut it with me.

Honest exchange? Wow, how can you even say that? You don't know what one is.

[slackmaster]

80. But you have intentionally misattributed a statement to me, right here in this sub-thread

Where everyone can see it.

you say handguns prevent murders

No, I don't say that. I never have said that, and I doubt that I ever will.

Are you a fundamentally dishonest person, or is your problem that you have strong emotions about this subject?

[KansasVoter]

86. Jesus Crist is something wrong with you.....

I will find a post....

until then you have made your case against it and all of your "fans" see you disagree with my statement.

I doubt people are running around repeating my accusation against you. Calling the New York Times, Etc.

LOL...how self important are you?

[cowman]

94. I've been here for quite a while and to my

knowledge, he has never ever said more guns prevents murder. If you find a post where he said that then I will apologize but I don't think you will find anywhere he said that.

[zanana1]

206. I've also been here for a long time.

I've had many "discussions" in the gun forum (under a different username--it used to be zanne). He has repeatedly said that less murders would be committed if more people had guns to "defend" themselves. You're either in denial, or your're just lying.

[slackmaster]

213. Bullshit zanne, er zanana1. I have NEVER SAID THAT, EVER, and you know it. Your post is dishonest.

He has repeatedly said that less murders would be committed if more people had guns to "defend" themselves.

This is an intentional misrepresentation of my position. Now that you have outed yourself as the former zanne, I am quite sure that you know that I have never said anything to the effect that more people owning guns would lead to fewer murders.

Your behavior here is no better than that of KansasVoter, who appears to have taken the cowardly route and refuses to acknowledge the inaccuracy of the statement. KansasVoter FAILED to prove the claim, and YOU WILL TOO because I have never said any such thing.

Your response to cowman here PROVES that you do not have me on Ignore, as you are implying in reply #205. More dishonesty!

Why do you people always seem to support your authoritarian views by misrepresenting the pro-choice position?

WHY won't you engage in an honest conversation?

[zanana1]

217. It's funny. The people I put on "ignore" keep trying to respond to me. nt

[slackmaster]

219. More dishonesty from zanana1

If I'm on Ignore, where did you get the information to enable you to write this in reply #206?

I've had many "discussions" in the gun forum (under a different username--it used to be zanne). He has repeatedly said that less murders would be committed if more people had guns to "defend" themselves. You're either in denial, or your're just lying.

If I was on Ignore, you wouldn't really know who cowman and KansasVoter was referring to or what I had said.

Somebody here is lying, that's for sure!

[cowman]

221. He has never said

more guns=less murder, You are either misinformed or a liar, The latter I suspect

[slackmaster]

138. You will find no such post made by me no matter how hard you look or where

Because that is not my position now, nor has it ever been. I have never said any such thing in my life, because that is not what I believe.

LOL...how self important are you?

Pretty damned, and I do pride myself on honest and consistency. I also value my reputation, and cannot allow any deliberate misrepresentation of my position on any subject to go unchallenged. I have to assume that anything that gets posted on a Web page will be in the public record forever, and I cannot assume that my IRL identity will never be connected with my DU handle. Everything on DU written by or about me may one day be accessible to prospective employers, law enforcement agencies, potential social contacts, etc. Making an intentional, repeated misstatement about my views amounts to defamation, and I cannot permit it.

The misrepresentation may have started out as an honest mistake, but since the error has been pointed out repeatedly there is no excuse for continuing the charade.

I'm still expecting an apology from KansasVoter, but I won't hold my breath waiting for it. People who get caught engaging in dishonest behavior are often unwilling to come clean when they have exhausted every possible dodge or rationalization. Maybe KansasVoter will surprise me.

[slackmaster]

179. Hey KansasVoter, are you still looking for that post?

I will find a post....

It's getting more and more difficult to believe anything you say.

[Xicano]

74. You seriously don't know the answer to that?

You actually believe that guns are a major 'cause' of violent crime rate? If that's the case then how do you explain that most violent crimes don't involve a gun? The three guys that invaded my home were not armed with a gun. Two of them had a knife, but none of them had a gun.

You know one of my brothers is a Los Angeles County Deputy Sheriff and from statistical facts and through his own experiences the two largest factors he sees as an element leading to violent crime are alcohol and poverty.

Do you drink at all? Just curious.. Do you believe alcohol can and is used irresponsibly resulting in tragic accidents and violent crimes? Can you point to where gun ownership 'caused' violence instead of being a misused tool where the cause was something else?

Now that I responding to your question. I'll re-ask. Do you believe if guns were made illegal that criminals would obey THAT law and that there wouldn't be a black market providing guns to criminals? Do you believe a person has a right to a means to defend themselves?

[zanana1]

160. He's a Los Angeles County Deputy Sheriff? Wow!

You must be right then. :sarcasm:

[zanana1]

159. I put certain posters on ignore...

Because it's a waste of time to try to have a rational conversation with them. Just a tip.

[slackmaster]

174. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt before I resort to that

I only do it when it's become abundantly clear that they are dishonest or mean-spirited.

[zanana1]

205. HAH! They try to respond to me, anyway. nt

[slackmaster]

216. If you have me on Ignore, then how did you know what you were talking about in reply #206?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You're trying to play "LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" but you don't even follow the rules.

AM I THE ONLY ONE LEFT WHO GIVES A SHIT ABOUT THE FUCKING RULES ANY MORE?

[zanana1]

218. ROFLMAO! nt

[slackmaster]

220. Your "pretend Ignore" isn't fooling anyone

Except maybe yourself. Your dishonest behavior here is obvious to everyone else.

[cowman]

222. Yeah

like you, You are obviously anti 2nd Amend and no matter what facts are put to you, you ignore them and continue to spout your dribble and you appear to be an untruthful person, Now you can put me on ignore

[LostinVA]

53. That is exactly what the psoter said -- circular logic

:rofl:

[zanana1]

156. EXCELLENT video by man who was shot 4 times at Virginia Tech...

http://www.bradycampaign.org/

[zanana1]

157. And here's an aricle on America's #1 status in gun fatalities.

http://bradycampaign.org/media/press/view/1268/

[That Is Quite Enough]

58. A triumph for the 2nd amendment!

[slackmaster]

61. Thank you for volunteering

Please refer to reply #1. I think that counts as a hit.

[That Is Quite Enough]

65. Sorry I'm not srs enough for this srs bsns. I'll leave the thread

[proteus_lives]

82. That kind of statement is about what is expected from the anti crowd.

:eyes:

[That Is Quite Enough]

192. Yeah, I don't like guns.

[proteus_lives]

197. Ok, that's fine.

I don't think you should have to like guns if you don't want to.

But I don't think you have the right to prevent other people from owning/carrying a firearm.

That's all RKBA Democrats have been saying for years.

[K8-EEE]

83. The problem is 2 year olds aren't allowed to have guns

So they are undefended! The Toddler Gun Ban is unconstitutional!

[cowman]

95. I was wondering when

someone was going to come up with that idiotic statement, congrats you win the prize

[slackmaster]

176. I knew it was a matter of time before the thread got long enough that someone wouldn't bother...

Reading the very first reply. My effort to poison the well has paid off, and that makes me smile.

;-)

[That Is Quite Enough]

191. If I may, slackmaster, why are you so intent on keeping this thread serious business?

Is it cause you can't stand to see us not apologising for these 'responsible gun owners' ???

[slackmaster]

193. Another fine example of the Straw Man Fallacy

Is it cause you can't stand to see us not apologising for these 'responsible gun owners' ???

That is another Straw Man, because NOBODY is apologizing for the idiot or idiots who left a handgun improperly secured and loaded.

You people really have nothing other than distortions and misrepresentations of other peoples' views.

Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.
Examples of Straw Man

1. Prof. Jones: "The university just cut our yearly budget by $10,000."
Prof. Smith: "What are we going to do?"
Prof. Brown: "I think we should eliminate one of the teaching assistant positions. That would take care of it."
Prof. Jones: "We could reduce our scheduled raises instead."
Prof. Brown: " I can't understand why you want to bleed us dry like that, Jones."

2. "Senator Jones says that we should not fund the attack submarine program. I disagree entirely. I can't understand why he wants to leave us defenseless like that."

3. Bill and Jill are arguing about cleaning out their closets:
Jill: "We should clean out the closets. They are getting a bit messy."
Bill: "Why, we just went through those closets last year. Do we have to clean them out everyday?"
Jill: "I never said anything about cleaning them out every day. You just want too keep all your junk forever, which is just ridiculous."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

[slackmaster]

175. It's amazing what some people will volunteer for

:rofl:

Hey K8-EEE, check your shoes. I think you stepped in something.

[MadMaddie]

76. Hmmm "No charges will be filed"

Isn't part of the gun ownership mantra that there are responsible gun owners out there.

These parents should be charged with something. I empathize with them for the loss of their child, however; this loaded gun was available for one of their children to access and play with. That's right the child was playing with the weapon.

I am not advocating for or against guns in this response...I am advocating that their should be responsibility and accountability.

This is an event that didn't have to happen.

[Hansel]

92. I'm right there with you. nt

[cowman]

96. On this

I 100% agree with you.
I am of the mind that firearms safety should be taught in our schools to take the mystic away from firearms. My 2 daughters knew all the ins and outs of firearms safety and both could shoot by age 6. By teaching them at an early age it took the mystic out of the firearms now my oldest is a Las Vegas Metro Police Officer and my youngest is a U.S. Army Captain.

[MadMaddie]

149. I applaud you for taking that responsibility to teach your children

gun safety. They grew up respecting weapons.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cowman]

103. the term gun nuts

will get your post deleted, just saying

[K8-EEE]

105. Oh sorry I don't care what

"gun enthusiasts" think of me not letting my kids hang in their house.

[cowman]

109. How would you like being called

an anti gun nut? I am a responsible law abiding gun owner and have been for years and years, I have never been in trouble with the law and I do hold a valid CHL, and the vast majority of lawful firearm owners are responsible citizens, that being said, there are always idiots who are irresponsible with their firearms but don't lump all gun owners with the few. If the investigation finds the parents negligent then they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Personally, I don't label you as an anti gun nut, I just think you are misguided on the intent of the 2nd Amend. but that is your right isn't it?

[Parche]

110. that doesnt help the 2year old now does it?

this should never have happened at all...........guns should be locked up period...

[cowman]

111. What I do in my own home

is none of you business, if I want to have my firearms unsecured while at home, that's my business not yours. I never said it helped the 2 year old. Now as you told me on another thread, go back to the general discussion, you're not needed here.

[Parche]

189. i wasnt talking about you

i was talking about them....i dont care what you do in your own home

families with young children in them should think twice about owning guns...

[zanana1]

169. I wouldn't allow my cats in their house.

And I'd move. (Relax; I know my neighbors very well--no gun nuts among them).

[slackmaster]

177. My cats like guns

[zanana1]

170. No it doesn't. Just saying. nt

[Odin2005]

84. And once again the gun haters politicize a tragedy!

:puke:

[KansasVoter]

87. And you pro-gun people love talking about defensive gun uses. Stupid argument.

[Xicano]

88. And I am alive today because of what you think is a "stupid argument."

n/t

[KansasVoter]

97. Funny, only the CCW people I know have a story like that. None of the non-gun people.

[cowman]

104. Maybe because the "non gun people" don't own guns

just saying

[KansasVoter]

114. Well......

I know a lot of CCW people, not a lot, about 5 out of the 10 I know who really want to have a reason to use it. I find that amazing.

[cowman]

118. If thats true

and I have to take your word, thaen those people have no business having a CHL and sooner or later will do something really stupid and have it revoked

[KansasVoter]

127. I think some of them think it would be exciting.....

I think it would be scary as hell.

The ones I am talking about are sort of the macho types. Tough guys. "I'll kick your ass" types.

The other 5 are like I would want. Just want the option available of needed.

[cowman]

131. those are the types that

will usually shit and piss their pants at the first sign of danger, the vast majority of us that have a CHL will walk away from conflict if at all possible because of the awesome responsibility we have.
Scenerio: I'm in a store carrying concealed and a armed robber comes in and proceeds to rob the store, would I pull my gun and start shooting? Unless the perp starts to herd all the patrons to the back of the store or something in the perp's manner leads me to believe that they are going to start shooting, then no I wouldn't pull my gun, what I would do is get a good description and give it to the police, my life or the other lives of the customers are worth a lot more than the cash the perp would get away with. I'm not a hero or John Wayne. A gun, in my mind, is the weapon of last resort, my brain is the first line of defense.
Hoped that cleared that up

[KansasVoter]

133. Good post. I hope most are like you. I fear a % are not.

[cowman]

137. Well

there are always a % of macho assholes out there that think a CHL makes them tough, they are usually the ones that get their ass kicked and their guns taken away or they end up in trouble with the law because they "flash" their guns or they pull it to show it off. These are the kinds of people I stay the fuck away from, but like I said the vast majority of CHL holders are sane, law abiding citizens who hope to hell that we never ever have to use our weapons but I like having the option just in case some asshole of a criminal leaves me absolutly no choice.
I never want to take another human life again if at all possible.

[X_Digger]

188. Many folks without CHLs have used them defensively.

In the home, or in a car, where a permit is not typically required in many states.

The National Crime Victimization Study (Clinton DOJ), among others, found anywhere between 500k-2.5M 'defensive' gun uses by people. A majority of those cases didn't involve actually discharging the weapon, much less actually hitting a suspect, or killing them.

Considering the NCVS was last updated in the early 90's, when not as many states had concealed carry, I'd assert that the majority of people who are defending themselves with firearms are NOT CCW holders. (Or were not at that time.)

[zanana1]

207. Sure, buddy. I believe you. nt

[cowman]

224. I don't think he really

gives a fuck what you believe.

[Hansel]

93. Yes, because gun lovers would never do that. **cough** NRA ** cough**

I guess this would be a more powerful statement if one of the most powerful and rich political lobbying firms in the US wasn't on the other side of that argument politicizing it to the hilt.

I personally don't have anything against gun ownership. I just think your statement is rich.

[Dr Morbius]

85. One wonders if the gun was purchased so the family would be "safer." (nt)

[alarimer]

101. Whoever owns the gun needs to be charged.

He obviously left it in a place the kid could get it. It was also loaded, there was no trigger lock, etc.

[Canuckistanian]

106. Our "kids shooting kids" rate is next to ZERO in Canada

I hear these stories on a regular basis in American cities.

We BAN handguns for personal use and impose STRICT rules for rifle ownership, handling and storage.

Draw your own conclusions. Or not.

[Pavulon]

113. Nope, I shot a match in canada. Only difference

was a minimum barrel length. So the p226 was a tad longer. They were registered at the cost of billions but I hear that system is going away.

Thats just great Its called PAL...

[spin]

134. It's your country. You have your own rules...

That's fine with me.

[Canuckistanian]

146. And we have our own child death rates

And fortunately, I care about the deaths of ALL children.

I just can't do anything about it when it happens in America.

[spin]

183. Actually very few YOUNG chidren die because of firearm accidents ...

but each incident is a tragedy.

Gun Safety for Kids and Youth

What are the statistics about young people and firearm deaths and injuries?
The 2002 edition of Injury Facts from the National Safety Council reports the following statistics <1> :

* In 1999, 3,385 children and youth ages 0-19 years were killed with a gun. This includes homicides, suicides, and unintentional injuries.
* This is equivalent to about 9 deaths per day, a figure commonly used by journalists.
* The 3,385 firearms-related deaths for age group 0-19 years breaks down to:

#

* 214 unintentional
* 1,078 suicides
* 1,990 homicides
* 83 for which the intent could not be determined
* 20 due to legal intervention

# Of the total firearms-related deaths:

* 73 were of children under five years old
* 416 were children 5-14 years old
* 2,896 were 15-19 years old
http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

Accidents with firearms for children under five years old should be entirely preventable by proper storage and such storage should deter almost all accidents under 14 years old.

In my personal opinion to call a fifteen year old a child is an foolish. In Florida, a fifteen year old can get a temporary driver's license and get his full license at sixteen. A seventeen year old can join the U.S. military with parental consent and 18 without.

Actually we are doing better with firearm accidents among children under 14 in the states. Education and possibly some gun control laws that required firearms to be stored properly when children are present might be the cause.

[madinmaryland]

116. Guns don't kill....

[cowman]

119. That is a true statement

a gun is just a tool, it's how it is used. I've never had my gun jump out of it's holster and shoot someone

[madinmaryland]

136. That's not my statement...

[zanana1]

165. People with guns kill. nt

[Bloofer_Lady]

122. If the gun wasn't in a safe...

...then the person who owns it should be charged. If you can't be bothered to lock up your gun when there are children about then you shouldn't be owning one.

[fishwax]

125. horrible tragedy

:(

[RamboLiberal]

130. It is a shame - the responsibility lies with the parent in this case

And if that gun wasn't secured then I'm for charging the responsible parent.

And I'm also for training kids whether by the parents or by a school gun safety. No touch when not on the range with a parent or guardian.

I wouldn't even be against anyone wanting to buy a gun who has kids to have to take a gun safety class and if their kids are old enough to have a special kids class.

Now how about banning ATV's? We've had a rash of kids in preteens to teens killed in my area of SW PA this year. Far more than kids accidentally killing kids with guns.

Though we did have one incident last week where a teen got shot by a friend. One parent apparently let one of them have 2 guns alone in a rural cabin. No adults present. And again I think the responsible adult should be charged.

[metalbot]

132. Compare to recent drowning thread on DU

Drowning thread: Horrible accident! More education is needed! What a tragedy!
Gun thread: Ban them for the children!

Despite the fact that having a pool in the home is substantially more dangerous than having a gun in the home, I never get any support for my campaign to ban swimming...

[mnhtnbb]

139. Some data to support your argument

http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe?_service=v8prod&_server=app-v-ehip-wisq.cdc.gov&_port=5081&_sessionid=WKYnivckL52&_program=wisqars.details10.sas&_service=&type=U&prtfmt=STANDARD&age1=1&age2=4&agegp=1-4&deaths=1588&_debug=0&lcdfmt=lcd1ageðnicty=0&ranking=10&deathtle=Death

[aikoaiko]

147. quick access hand gun safes or lock boxes make great baby shower presents

or presents to any parent who has handguns for self-defense.

When I was a bachelor, I kept my a handgun loaded within easy reach in my home. But now with a 5 year old, every gun is either in a lock box or locked case. I have a quick access mechanical push button lock box for my revolver that sits on my piano.

This push button AMSEC box cost $125 . I also got it for a friend when he had his first baby.


Gunvault also makes a well respected electronic button box (batteries and plug) and costs about $120.


And now there are affordable biometric handgun safes that use finger prints ($250-350) like this BioBox.


This one (Secure It Security Box) costs a mere $35 and I used it when I have to leave my gun in my car.



Seriously, if you know someone with kids and a handgun, make a handgun safe a present to that gun owner. When kids arrive, so do bills and sometimes people put off something like a handgun safe.

[slackmaster]

178. That's exactly what I would give to an expectant family that owned a gun but had no storage device

Usually I give them things like safety plugs for electrical outlets, and locking devices for kitchen cabinets and drawers.

[Arugula Latte]

148. Another day in the loonybin known as America

[depakid]

158. Yep- another day: Boy accidentally shoots, kills 9-year-old brother near Tillamook

A 7-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed his 9-year-old brother Sunday afternoon in an area about 12 miles south of Tillamook, according to the Tillamook County Sheriff's Office.

Tillamook and Nestucca Rural Fire and Rescue authorities responded about 1:50 p.m. Sunday to a home on the Wildcat Road near U.S. 101, where they found the siblings' stepfather attempting CPR on the 9-year-old. The stepfather had been on the scene when the child was shot. authorities transported to the victim to the Tillamook County General Hospital and pronounced the 9-year-old dead about one hour later.

More: http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/07/boy_accidentally_shoots_kills.html

[zanana1]

162. And people who support loose gun laws are partly responsible. nt

[depakid]

166. More than partly...

[zanana1]

167. I was trying to be nice, but...

Actually, I agree with you.

[Pavulon]

172. Since your government did not ban the internet (yet), it is responsible

for all the child porn now. Not the person who downloaded it. Poor broken logic.

(keep an eye out for the flexcache appliance, its on its way)

[uncommon]

184. Sounds like a tragic case of negligent parenting...

to me. Obviously children should not have access to guns. Where were the parents?