Can someone help me out on this illegal immigrant issue (seriously)....

[HardWorkingDem]

In some ways I just don't get the Rethuglican fixation on this issue. It seems to me, most of their complaints are not based in facts.

For example, let's take the "taking jobs" claim. Do these buffoons really think illegal immigrants take jobs that Americans are willing to work? Or is there research out there that shows those that do hire "illegal immigrants" actually make money because they do pay less for work with the fear of employee exposure and how using the fear could undercut the money paid to the "illegal immigrant."

Then on the other hand, don't they realize that probably all Americans benefit from undocumented workers in one way or another?

Crime? Certainly it's not any higher than in other demographic groups, that is unless, the person is here all ready for explicit criminal ventures. Hell, I'd imagine if it is about a job, then the person is more careful to avoid the attention of authorities.

Or do medical treatment issues trump all of these costs?

Or is it just maybe an innate fear of white America becoming less white and this is the best way for Rethuglicans to scare their constituents.

It's just baffling how easily frightened the nation has become over this issue.

[davidinalameda]

1. for me it boils down to one issue

they are here illegally

they've broken the law to enter our country

[DJ13]

2. +1

[Xipe Totec]

6. Bullshit

If you knew anything about work visas for foreign farm workers, you would know that the permits to work are granted to employers, not employees. There are no names attached to the permits. Workers are legal as long as the employer keeps them on the payroll. If they are fired they instantly become 'illegal'. The workers have no control over their visas, so they have no control over their status. They become illegal when some shithole decides they don't want them anymore.

[yellerpup]

7. X10,000

[davidinalameda]

11. I'm not talking about them

I'm talking about the ones who cross the border illegally

[Kali]

13. sigh

nevermind


ok one comment: please try to educate yourself and stop sucking the rightwing law and order teat so hard

[davidinalameda]

23. sorry

I guess I like people not breaking the law

I'm just weird that way

[EFerrari]

26. If you follow that all the way through

you have to not like all kinds of people that had to break all kinds of laws, like the fugitive slave law, prohibition, our founders, long list.

[pinboy3niner]

31. Or, another way to follow it

This country has far more pot smokers breaking the law than undocumented border-crossers. If we should be concerned about "people not breaking the law," should we be diverting ICE resources to the war on drugs to apprehend THOSE 'illegals'?

[davidinalameda]

50. how about sticking to one subject

or if you want, we can compare ILLEGALS to thieves

the ILLEGALS come in to this country; use stolen social security numbers to get jobs that might have gone to Americans or to immigrants that came into this country legally

we have to divert resources and funds to try and stop them from entering; we have to divert resources and funds to busting employers and companies that hire the ILLEGALS; we have to divert resources and funds to schools that could have gone to educating the children of Americans or immigrants that came into this country legally; we have to divert resources and funds to hospitals to treat the illegals that could have been spent on treating Americans or immigrants that came into this country legally

they are stealing from Americans and immigrants that came into this country legally

[pinboy3niner]

62. How about sticking to one rationale?

It seems your professed concern about lawbreaking isn't the reason for your position after all. NOW the reason you give for your concern is economic costs (providing a list that may as well have been copied and pasted from RW talking points).

Your claim that "illegals" are "stealing" from Americans isn't borne out by the facts:

Illegal Immigrants are Paying a Lot More Taxes Than You Think
Eight million illegals pay Social Security, Medicare, and income taxes
Shikha Dalmia
May 1, 2006


The fact that illegal immigrants pay taxes at all will come as news to many Americans. A stunning two-thirds of illegal immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes. Yet, nativists like Congressman Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., have popularized the notion that illegal aliens are a colossal drain on the nation's hospitals, schools and welfare programs — consuming services that they don't pay for.

In reality, the 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization. The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education.
<snip>

But, immigrants aren't flocking to the United States to mooch off the government. According to a study by the Urban Institute, the 1996 welfare reform effort dramatically reduced the use of welfare by undocumented immigrant households, exactly as intended. And another vital thing happened in 1996: the Internal Revenue Service began issuing identification numbers to enable illegal immigrants who don't have Social Security numbers to file taxes.

One might have imagined that those fearing deportation or confronting the prospect of paying for their safety net through their own meager wages would take a pass on the IRS' scheme. Not so. Close to 8 million of the 12 million or so illegal aliens in the country today file personal income taxes using these numbers, contributing billions to federal coffers. No doubt they hope that this will one day help them acquire legal status — a plaintive expression of their desire to play by the rules and come out of the shadows.
<snip>

Beyond federal taxes, all illegals automatically pay state sales taxes that contribute toward the upkeep of public facilities such as roads that they use, and property taxes through their rent that contribute toward the schooling of their children. The non-partisan National Research Council found that when the taxes paid by the children of low-skilled immigrant families -- most of whom are illegal — are factored in, they contribute on average $80,000 more to federal coffers than they consume.

Shikha Dalmia is a senior analyst at Reason Foundation, a free-market think tank. This column was originally distributed by the Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service.


http://reason.org/news/show/122411.html

Here are some other links you may find helpful:

factcheck.org: Economists say immigration, legal or illegal, doesn't hurt American workers
http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/does-immigration-cost-jobs

Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

NYT Editorial: How Immigrants Saved Social Security
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/02/opinion/02wed3.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

(Ed. to move one link.)

[davidinalameda]

66. do they pay property taxes?

most school districts are funded by property taxes

and you're quoting from Reason?

you do know that's a libertarian website

[pinboy3niner]

70. Yes, they do, just like any other renter or homeowner.

The article that appeared in Reason was published originally by Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service, a major mainstream news publisher.

[davidinalameda]

51. spare me the drama

you're comparing ILLEGALS to the founding fathers?

and I think that you might be diminishing these ILLEGALS by comparing them to people who broke the law for a drink of booze

[pinboy3niner]

71. If you have any genuine concern at all about people being diminished...

...perhaps you'll quit referring to human beings as "illegals" stop engaging in rhetoric that brands an entire group of people as "thieves". Use of the term "illegals" to refer to human beings--even in LOWER case--is dehumanizing and offensive.

[EFerrari]

74. Drama? I'm pointing out that what is legal is not always what is right.

[riderinthestorm]

32. Then you must be after Obama and his Admin for "breaking the law"

by not going after the Bush Admin for it's lawbreaking.

Or perhaps you want to go after those who aren't moving out of their foreclosed homes. Clearly they are breaking the law too. Or perhaps you're all up in arms over the local sheriff NOT enforcing the laws and forcibly evicting those who have foreclosed. Screw the dubious banking issues, the laughably nefarious paperwork scams, the HOA horror stories... get them the fuck out right? Or maybe not. See nobody gets all batshit over THOSE laws (which are as nebulous and gray and troublesome as immigration).

How about jaywalkers? They cause accidents all over the place, and yet, that law never gets enforced. Or non-seat belt wearers? Are you on a crusade? Flying projectile passengers in accidents kill people!

There are regular law breakers everywhere, daily. It's only the racist immigration "laws" that make no sense, that are extremely troublesome - only THOSE need vigilant (vigilante) monitoring and enforcement.

Our immigration system is fucked. up. It's got so many problems yet somehow THIS law is the one that needs people to get tough. It's racist and it's bullshit. Our entire immigration system is fundamentally flawed.

[davidinalameda]

52. immigration laws are racist?

how?

[riderinthestorm]

57. They disproportionately target brown people. Poor brown people especially.

From the very beginning when poor Mexicans or Central Americans are placed on the bottom of the visa pile to the apex culminating in laws like the recently passed one in AZ that will unfairly and unjustly single out a single demographic based virtually entirely on the way they look.

It's the very definition of racism.

[davidinalameda]

64. do they have skills that this country needs?

that should be the underlying reason for approving anyone's application for immigration

why should the US allow these people to immigrate if they don't benefit this country

no one has a right to immigrate

I probably don't meet the criteria to immigrate to Canada, should I be yelling discrimination?

[riderinthestorm]

72. Thats precisely the point: immigration isn't objective, fair, or transparent

It absolutely makes no sense. The US needs farm workers, they benefit our country, but those who want to work in those jobs are the very people who are delayed or denied. They are frequently kept in limbo for decades for absolutely no reason other than they are being discriminated against.

Everyone has a right to a fair hearing in their immigration process, unfortunately poor Mexicans and Central Americans never get that. Whether you get the visa or not, at least with Canada you can expect a fair process. The US process is anything but.

[riderinthestorm]

28. NAFTA's provisions have ensured that many Mexicans have no livelihood anymore

From the farming industry to those in the cities, NAFTA ensures that the poorest are exploited, driven out, starved out and worse without giving them any access to the "wealthier" areas of our "free trade" zone. They are basically trapped in failing farming communities for example with no way to change it.

Some emigrate after waiting 20 + years (that is not a typo) for a work visa that will never come because they are poor and don't have access to the lawyers and fees required to get in legally. Their children have no schools (anymore) in their area since NAFTA has eradicated their community, there's no industry, nothing.

Some emigrate because the US conglomerates who might set up shop in their neighborhood (and who also have turned their neighborhood into a virtual slave town) ensure that the rising economy brings in drug cartels that exploit the workers. Who would you rather work for? The illegal drug cartels, the US conglomerate at slave wages, or take a chance across the border and work illegally?

Regardless, a lot of Mexico's problems stem from the US. We've basically instituted a system whereby the poorest in Mexico are exploited and extorted by the rich neighbors who have been given free access to plunder the poor areas, while the richest areas have been decreed "off limits" to the poor. It's disgusting and despicable.

If you can't see beyond the rethug talking points, and simply parrot "illegal!" without understanding what drives people from Mexico (and don't even get me started on Central American politics and how we've fucked around in their countries for decades wreaking havoc across every sector) across the border, and why it's tied into the US' exploitative capitalist system, and why we bear a HUGE responsibility for illegal immigration which thus must warrant a compassionate response to this tricky problem, then there's nothing further to discuss.

Just for laughs, what do you think should be done about children of illegal immigrants who have spent virtually their entire lives here? They didn't ask to be brought in illegally- they had no choice in the matter. Deport them too?

You do know that most illegals pay taxes, pay into their communities etc. right? They are far more of a "help" to our society than a drag, you do know that right?

[Kali]

36. thanks!

I get so goddamn tired of the simplistic bullshit and have lost patience explaining this stuff over and over to supposed liberals who should understand the nuances of cause and effect and have compassion for other human beings. I'm trying to either ignore these posts or log the ones spewing rightwing talking points into my "buddy list" but sometimes I can't help myself.

Yours is a good post - going to book mark as a possible "instant" reply in the future.

[riderinthestorm]

37. LOL. It's Saturday night and I'm 2 drinks into DU.

Feel free to appropriate anything in the post verbatim but you may want to spell check it in the morning!

Jayzus, I'm tired Kali. I know your life is similar to mine (ranching v. farming/horse biz). Some nights I just don't have the energy anymore, especially in the summer. I have a ton of mowing to do but tonight I decided to come in early and relax with a glass of wine (or two!) The heat's wearing me down. Hope all is well in your corner of the world....

[Kali]

40. oh we're doing ok

damn rain won't fall though! and yeah the heat has been pretty bad the last few weeks.
I was doing medical things last night (sleep study) and consequently had to sleep most of the day today - after coming out of the lab this morning to find a totally flat tire. Tomorrow's another day, I guess.

[pinboy3niner]

44. Thanks for your thoughtful, EXCELLENT post! + 1000!

It's tough to combat simplistic talking points and sound bites with the truth, with its complexity and nuance and history--which require more than a sound bite's worth of explanation and exposition.

Especially frustrating when Dems buy into and parrot the RW memes.

As for the children, that's a softball. The answer, obviously, is the DREAM Act. And even among those who support anti-immigrant positions there is more compassion and empathy for children who innocently become trapped in adverse circumstances.

Your final comments address the falsehoods and misperceptions behind some of the anti-immigrant rhetoric. The Social Security Administration has yet to release its still-overdue annual report, but in the meantime here are a few links I've found helpful in trying to counter the misperceptions, distortions and lies:


factcheck.org: Economists say immigration, legal or illegal, doesn't hurt American workers
http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/does-immigration-cost-jobs

Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

NYT Editorial: How Immigrants Saved Social Security
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/02/opinion/02wed3.html?_r=1&ref=opinion


Thanks for being here, rider! :thumbsup:

:yourock:

[davidinalameda]

53. that seems to be an issue for the Mexican government to deal with

not the American taxpayer

[riderinthestorm]

56. But it's the American taxpayer/government that has created the problem.

Can you not see any US culpability in creating such dire circumstances, either in Mexico or Central America?

[davidinalameda]

65. how did the American taxpayer create the problem?

the Mexican government signed the NAFTA treaty

they should be responsible for their own citizens

if it's not good for them, then they should deal with it

[riderinthestorm]

73. The Mexican government is an almost wholly owned subsidiary of the US.

You want to give blithe and trite answers to issues that are anything but.

The PRI party in Mexico had an almost hegemonic control over Mexican politics for decades, and was in collusion with the US. As if the people had any kind of control over their politics during the PRI years when NAFTA was pushed through.

Or Central American governments, complete puppets of the US through Cold War machinations and assasinations whereby the US orchestrated total dictatorships that would operate as our proxies - like the "people" there had any kind of control over what their governments were doing TO them. Surely you've heard of United Fruit? Or Shell or any of the other corporate oligarchies that masked as political parties?

Your premises are absurd, your arguments are straight out of Rethug talking points with absolutely no knowledge of WHY US immigration policy has become such a despicable cesspool with regards to those south of our border. The US is directly culpable for the current state of affairs, and to blindly call out "illegals"! without encompassing the full picture is ignorance at best - I won't go into any other definitions for fear of violating the new rules on DU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Yuo mean the ones who work for oh TYSON foods

Who answered adds in Mexico for work in El Norte? How do you think Tyson foods got them across the border? LEGALLY?

No, I am not shitting you... they RAN adds in places like Guadalajara, and those workers have been here for 10-15 years and they were attracted by Tyson in not the most legal of ways.

Tyson prefers these workers since unlike African American or Poor Whites, they don't make any waves.

By the way Tyson (and most other companies doign this) were supposed to be FINED for doing this. THey haven't. Care to play connect the dots?

[jwirr]

19. "Deportee" by Woodie Guthrie says it all.

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. So in response they buy a fake SS card instead of a bus ticket.

Sorry, no. They're not powerless victims.

[davidinalameda]

54. so?

maybe the workers shouldn't take the jobs then

yet again, providing jobs for Mexicans should be the concern of the Mexican government not the American taxpayer

and how many ILLEGALS are workers that have been fired or let go by American companies who had sponsored them in the first place

[KonaKane]

14. It's not quite so simple, David.

I used to work as an ESL teacher in a heavily Hispanic area. As you can imagine, I got boatloads of illegal immigrants in my classrooms. But I also got their stories, and saw that its a much murkier topic than what you are giving it credit for.

For instance, many folks at my school were in the USA out of fleeing for their lives. They had run afoul of some drug group, or worse a government paramilitary that was after them for demonstrating for jobs or working for unions. They had to run FOR THEIR LIVES. Would you be able to say to the face of someone who ran with their families to save their lives, that they cannot be here? Would you turn them in? I sure as hell wouldn't.

One last point to consider. Many of the illegal immigrants in my classes saved their money and later "came out" and went through the process to become legal.

[EFerrari]

15. Well, we stole half of their country and then inflicted NAFTA on them.

They're not even even yet. :)

[davidinalameda]

24. I'm all for giving Texas back to them

[EFerrari]

25. We should just give TX republicans to North Korea!

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. It is in labors interest to constrain the supply of labor.

An unrestricted supply of labor is a huge part of the reason that wages peaked in 1978 and corporate profits skyrocketed. Unregulated immigration is VERY MUCH NOT in the interest of american workers. That is the main reason we laws to enforce immigration policy.

For me it boils down to one issue: I am an american worker, and I want a fair share of the goods and services I produce. Enforcing the laws will help in this regard.

[EFerrari]

27. There is no way we can enforce immigration law successfully

while our government helps multinationals rape Latin America.

We don't want economic refugees, let's stop making them.

[riderinthestorm]

33. +10,0000.

Eferrari, you know it. I get so tired sometimes of this, over and over. I just hope that the message is reaching someone??!!

You're all over this like white on rice. I love it. Keep up the good work. I'm frequently too exhausted these days (summer is our busiest time) and I'm not on often enough. You are a superstar.

[KonaKane]

29. No, Sir. I am an internationalist when it comes to labor.

Every working person on the planet has worth, and rights. If you really want to put a damper on illegal immigration to the USA, then you have to strike at the problem - lack of jobs in Mexico. And if you want to remedy that, call for Leftist revolution in Mexico that would reform land, labor and create jobs.

Que viva!

[howard112211]

76. +1. Si, hasta siempre.

[Capn Sunshine]

30. so, families, following trails that have existed for centuries, that later became roads

These families, that have FOR CENTURIES come down out of the mountains to work for the large haciendas, to improve their families meager existence. These people follow the same roads. These roads were created by their movement, and around oh, 1910 or so, someone comes and builds a gate and tells them that this road is no longer open, even though the free movement of peoples was a big issue when they formed the United States. But to you, they broke the law. The law that was imposed on the area in lieu of their own codes and customs by a corporatist bunch who took the lands and refused to recognize landed title and community held property like wells and fields because there was more profit in stealing it and giving it to rich interests in this new country?

Is that the law you say they broke?

[KonaKane]

35. How quickly we forget. And nothing shows the stupidity of borders like this.

I lived for a time in Las Cruces, NM and we regularly traveled to nearby El Paso, where we would cross into Mexico and have a fun day in Cuidad Juarez. I never understood why they called El Paso/Ciudad Juarez "Amexica" until I saw it myself. A SEA of humanity moving back and forth daily, between those two cities. People going to and from work, visiting family and friends etc. The thing that struck me was how absolutely ridiculous the border station looked. It appeared as some big ugly useless building plunked down in the middle of someone's huge yard. Entirely senseless. These two cities for all intents and purposes, were one, and here people were made to funnel through this nonsense.

Borders are melting into meaninglessness.

[depakid]

39. Funny how Israel's repeated violations of international laws seem just fine with you

Methinks "the law" has little to do with it on this issue.

[riderinthestorm]

42. I know right? From pot to jaywalking to international crimes... all skate by.

Yet we come to immigration. One of the US's real Achilles heels in terms of clarity, black ops, outright bribery, and bullshit and THIS is the law to be enforced! black and white!

Yeah, more like brown and white - all racist.

[SargeUNN]

60. too simply of a view. You need to look more into it

I suggest you look at how the path to citizenship works. Did you know many came here legally but due to red tape, greedy lawyers, and anti-hispanic attitudes many have their visas expire before they can get renewed or get citizenship? Did you know that many were brought here as minor children when they were too young to have a choice but citizenship is out of the question for them? Did you know it takes years to get a visa if you are in Mexico coming in and the time can be prolonged so much that it becomes impossible with many financially suffering in Mexico? Do you know how much these people add to our economy? How much do you really know and did you stop to realize most of us are here illegally since our forefathers came here and stayed even when they were not wanted. I think you need to do more research and stop being so niave on this.

[Mojorabbit]

3. Unemployment has to be blamed on someone

and it seems they are it... instead of banks not lending and employers not hiring because of the collapse caused by the financial sector.

[KonaKane]

4. The Rethugs, as usual, are saying one thing and doing another.

For instance I would bet dollars to donuts that many of them who publically shriek about illegal immigration hire those same illegal immigrants as under the table labor, to save on costs. For the rethugs its all about the bottom line. If they can fearmonger the base, to get elected, while continuing to pay for illegal labor on the down-low, then so be it.

They are the most shameless hypocrites imaginable.

I also brought this up with a conservative I know, who is endlessly ranting on illegal immigration. I said to him "You know, if you really were against illegal immigration, you would support reform in Mexico because it all gets back to jobs." His eyes narrowed at me and he said "What exactly do you mean?" I responded "Support the Zapatistas and all Leftist movements in Mexico. They are the ones who want land and labor reform to benefit the people, and take ironfisted rule out of the hands of the rich aristocracy who has ruled Mexico for decades. It would create a ton of jobs for average Mexicans and take a huge bite out of the illegal problem in the USA."

As you can imagine he went off on a tirade about the evils of leftism and socialist movement. But behind the rage in his eyes you could see a clear sign of confusion and internal conflict - because beyond all his predigested anti-socialist slogans, he knew I was right!

I probably should make a thread out of this tangent. Thanks for the post.

[HardWorkingDem]

5. That is a very interesting point....(about another country's internal policies)

and does it not say something about our country's ignorance when it comes to the policies of other countries and around the bend impact they end up having on our own countries.

Thanks for the insight. I'd never really thought about how our lack of support for good worker conditions in other countries does come back to bite us in the rump.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Oy, why am I saying Oy?

The Zapatistas are far more complex than just a good ol' fashioned Lefty (marxist, Commandante Marcos is a ladino boy from Guadalajara who was part of the Marxist student movemnet oh back in '68)... it goes back to the Caste War of Yucatan. The best forgotten war in Mexican History...

I know adding a little complexity (a lot actually) to your story.

And how well known is this war? Let's just say I grew up in Mexico. I studied Mexican History, and this is a war that has been buried in Official history for a reason... a very good reason indeed.

I remember having the chance to ahem mention this to Enrique Krauze, the TOP Mexican Historian right now. He had that look of huh? Then I explained myself, and he said, Mexico is not ready for that complexity... yet.

[pinboy3niner]

48. An old Mayan word, perhaps? :) nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. What ladino? That is a white boy

and the war lasted for over two generations in the 19th century. It was a blood bath... on all sides, with some genocide involved.

The zapatistas are in many cases Maya and Mixtec Indias who are descendants of those who fought that war. This was literally the closest Mexico came to a slave revolt, Yes Slavery was banished in the 1820s, but it really did not disapear in the caste system of that area of the country. For those who are curious, the book THe Caste War of Yucatan is a good place to start.

And the writings on this are scant at best. But having talked to a few Mixtec... the Zapatista Revolt is not just about NAFTA and what they see as Ladino interference in their way of life, but about truly abolishing the Castes, yes native american people in Mexico are treated worst than Natives in the US...

Ah the joys of working with many populations as a medic.

Oh and effectively, the State of Michoacan is mostly an independent region these days. No, don't go to the New York Times, and that is a repeat of that 19th century war.

[Bluenorthwest]

55. Ladino is a word that has various meanings in various places

The first meaning for the word is as the name of the language of Sephardic Jews.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Of course it does, but in Mexico among

Native populations it means white. You might wonder if this is a change from the original meaning, as many Conversos came to Mexico in the 16th and 17th century. Hell, there is a group of Crypto Jews that "came out" back in the 1970s. I could go into the issues between them and the Jewish Community, but that is another story.

[kestrel91316]

8. Indeed, all Americans ultimately benefit from the highly profitable

exploitation of undocumented workers. That is nothing to be proud of, and not a reason to let the situation continue.

BTW, granting legal status to those who are here illegally now will do NOTHING to solve the problem. Once the current illegal workers are made legal and are granted rights and protections, THEY WILL BE LET GO BY THE CORPORATIONS WHO EXPLOITED THEM, and they will be immediately replaced with a brand new crop of undocumented and therefore exploitable workers.

I can't possibly be the only person who gets this.

[EFerrari]

17. Oh, you're not. It's a shell game.

And having that cheap labor available is one reason why our media underplays all the cr@p we do in Latin America.

Why do you think they hit on leftist leaders so much? They're screwing with our cheap labor. They're making their countries more livable and people will stay home. Not only can our corporations not rape their countries but their workers are staying home. Can't have that.

[napi21]

9. It's probably a combination of all you mentioed. People have been objecting

to immigrants forever. There was an program on TV yesterday that was talking about that and the only difference is that the groups change identity over the years. Back when most immigrants were coming from Germany, Ireland, Poland, Italy etc. many of THEM were viewed as unwanted here in the US. My mother told me that she was never really welcomed in my fathers family. His family were all germans & she was part German, part Irish. She was treated ok, but never really considered to be a real part of the family, and the were married in 1934. One of my bosses, a very intelligent and handsome man, couldn't find a job after he graduated Suma Cum Laude from college because he was Italian & a Catholic, and that was in the 1960's.

The people on the show referred to people now saying how their ancestors came to the US and were never considered illegal, and that's true, but it's true because the US idn't have any immigration laws than. The only requirement was that you had to have a little bit of $$ so you didn't become a drain on society.

Most of the prejudices against European immigrants are now gone, but they still remain in a different ethnic group. I'm not sure if those who really harbor strong prejudices even know why. I tend to think a lot of it comes from the unknown. People who LOOK different are scary until you get to know them and find out we're really are all very much the same.

The other night there was a clip on Rachel's show where she was turing some place in Afghanistan and there were kids playing on playground equipment next to what used to be an area where executions were done. Even I was surprised because we never see that side of the Afghani culture. All we ever see are the adults wearing guns & fighting.

[Warpy]

10. It's the GOP blame game, using right wing radio to whip up hate

and try to get their demoralized sheep to the polls in November.

Illegal aliens were allowed to flood into this country for eight solid years in order to keep driving wages down and break the last vestiges of unions. Now the GOP has decided it's a hot button issue they can use to drive their idiot voters off the couch and to the polls.

The truth is that the tide has started to turn and is slowly going the other way as jobs here that paid more than minimum wage have dried up along with the construction industry, in general.

The Republicans created this problem and there is no way they can fix it, just like most of the other problems this country is facing.

The only way to make this country less attractive to illegal aliens is to start enforcing all the laws on the books that penalize the businesses that hire them and exploit them.

Attacking the powerless people, themselves, never works but is always attractive to the authoritarians. Dry up the jobs and they'll not only stop coming, most of them will start to go elsewhere.

[Kali]

12. um...

"It seems to me, most of their complaints are not based in facts."

This is true of most of the issues they try to get people worked up about, isn't it?

[EFerrari]

16. Well, it is true that these workers do displace ours in a very few trades.

That's true. They add to the economy over all -- to the point where communities that drive them out tank, tank utterly.

What I've seen at nativist sites is "Visualize 2040", so you have to know that racism plays a big role in all of this.

/oops

[OHdem10]

18. I hate to say it but the GOP likes Immigration as an Issue. It roils

up people and then the Republicans can jump in.

Other than build a fence exactly what is their policy. When
they were in charge what did they do???

Throw red meat to certain groups in their base.

[cry baby]

22. to whip up passion, fear and loathing - an election is upcoming!

If they had a real issue with it, they (the repubs) would have done something on it already.

[Cleita]

34. It's another distraction from real issues, just like

the killing unborn babies and death panels for senior citizens are. They have nothing concrete to offer in the coming elections, so they create a bugaboo, appealing to the hidden prejudices of their voting bloc.

[truth2power]

58. You are absolutely correct, Cleita, as is Orsino, who posted a similar thought, below..

It's ALL distraction. The RW are fear-mongers. It's all they've got. And progressives bite every time they go, "booga booga!!".

I wish every Hispanic who is here illegally would/could just STOP working for a week. See how things would fall apart.

You know, there is a movie, "A Day Without Mexicans". Not about illegals, per se. It's a comedy. Probably difficult to find, but worthwhile if you can get your hands on it. Shows how those who are considered "the other" contribute in ways we never think about.

[pinboy3niner]

59. "A Day Without a Mexican"

Plot Summary for
A Day Without a Mexican (2004)

A thick fog surrounds California's borders, communication beyond state lines is cut off, and the Mexicans disappear: workers, spouses, and business owners are missing. Cars are abandoned in the street, food is left cooking on the stove. We meet the wife of a musician who's gone, a state Senator whose maid doesn't show up for work, and a farm owner whose produce is ripe and unpicked. A scientist asks any Mexicans who haven't disappeared to volunteer for genetic experiments: a female newscaster and the daughter of the musician may be the only missing links around. Why them? And where have all the Mexicans gone? Even the border guards grieve. The state and its economy grind to a halt.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0377744/plotsummary

[blondeatlast]

68. Precisely. nt

[rucky]

38. Just make 'em talk about illegal employers.

You can't have an honest discussion without bringing that up.

[riderinthestorm]

41. I've hired an illegal. I've posted that on DU already.

I own and operate a small organic farm and I also run a sport horse training/boarding/sales operation on my place so I have about 10 employees total at any given time.

The young man in question, who was 18 years old at the time, applied for temporary summer help with me. He spoke perfect English but had a hispanic name. I asked him to show me his driver's license and SS card, PLUS a green card if he was working in the US with it. He assured me he was legal and provided me a US passport, his drivers license and his SS card. I dutifully made copies of all of them, AND checked the US database for SS numbers. He checked out.

He worked for me for 1 summer and moved on.

10 years later the IRS finds me to ask about him. He was illegal, using someone else's ID. How was I supposed to know? Was I supposed to racially profile and not hire him? He was legit as far as I could tell.

It's possible his parents provided him that ID when he was brought into the states as a child. As I said, he spoke perfect English, he may not even have known and used that ID all through school and work and beyond.

Why are employers supposed to be the ones who do INS's job? And why are we supposed to be the ones to take the hit when it turns out they are illegal? Do you know how laughably easy it is to forge a SS card?

[Hello_Kitty]

69. Require employers to use E-Verify and make it an affirmative defense

You did your due diligence to ascertain the status of your worker and that worker was found to be using fraudulent ID. You shouldn't be held liable for it. Right now there are employers who are helping the workers obtain the forged documents. Those employers should be nailed.

[Orsino]

43. Distraction. They want us to blame the Other...

...rather than focusing on the rich motherfuckers who really are criminally victimizing us, taking our jobs, ruining our neighborhoods and stuffing the ballot boxes.

It's all a distraction. Always has been, always will be.

[oldlib]

45. We also share a border with Canada.

I saw an article in the Port Angeles newspaper, that someone recently tried to force entry at the Blaine, Washington border crossing. The article didn't state if it was someone trying to exit or enter the USA. What is of interest, however, is that the GOOP doesn't have a concern with Canada crossings, and only with those worthless* Mexicans at that border. *That is the GOOP sentiments, not mine.

[SargeUNN]

61. I have posted many threads answering your question

try googling it here at DU and I think it might explain a lot. I am just tired of posting it because it takes awhile and after all the times I have posted it, I just don't feel like doing so again and then for the next time someone ask the same question.

[Lasher]

67. Loaded questions.

But you're just seeking knowlege (seriously), right?

[HardWorkingDem]

75. What is it with Du'ers?

Yes, I was serious.

Some days one just wakes up and can't figure out this country, nor the lack of depth when it comes to the knowledge of this country and then you turn on FauxNews and get hit with a dose of reality.

Still, the almost automatic fear of "illegal" immigrants is quite baffling to me and shall remain that way until some sort of answer pops up.