HELP My brother in law is considering joining the Armed forces. He thinks he won't go to Iraq

[greenbriar]

also thinks he will get money to pay off student loans.

I need True examples of the lies the recuriters tell to get people to join

please help


He needs direction in life, just divorced with two young kids...very MESSY situation...

has a decent paying job but he is not happy and will not advance because he can't afford to further his education...

[greenbriar]

1. I need to talk him out of this

tomorrow

[MADem]

20. There's a key sentence in his enlistment contract. He needs to read and comprehend it. It says

The agreements in this section and attached annex ( es ) are all the promises made to me by the Government. ANYTHING ELSE ANYONE HAS PROMISED ME IS NOT VALID AND WILL NOT BE HONORED.

That's pretty damned plain. He'll be asked to INITIAL that section. And he'd better not be crying and calling out the recruiter's name, even if the recruiter promised him duty in Las Vegas greasing stripper poles.

Key points:

The agreements in the CONTRACT are the only ones that count.

People CAN and WILL lie to you, and tell you things like "That almost NEVER happens..."

[rasputin1952]

2. Doesw he have custody of the kids? n/t

[greenbriar]

4. no

he gets them every other weekend and has to pay over 700 child support a month while his ex sits on her ass

[durrrty libby]

15. "while his ex sits on her ass"

Wow....there are words ...but I won't say them

However he is looking to escape from the frying pan to the fire. He will regret it.

Guaranteed

P.S. His pay will still get garnished. He can't escape it. Just tell him to put his death benefits in

his ex's name. That should cover it

[rasputin1952]

16. Tell him that 1/2 of his base pay and allowances will go to

his ex!

That includes any bonus he may receive for enlisting.

If he is still adamant about joining, that should take him down a peg.

As for recruiters, during times like this, they need servivemembers in the 11 series of MOS', that is Infantry, mortars and the like. They offer a large bonus, but like I said, if there is a divorce decree, 1/2 goes to the absent spouse...does he really want to give her a $5000 or so "bonus", because he decided to join the Army?

I'm not sure about the bonuses in other services, but the AF might keep him out of ground ops, as most likely will the Navy...but once again, 1/2 of all he makes in base pay and allowances will go to her...not a good idea, especially if payroll screws up and he gets hit w/about 6 months back support, they'll take all but about 10% till the debt is paid.

Tell me if he's thought about that at all...and good luck in talking him out of this, it's a 'guy thing' and we can be pretty stupid sometimes.

Let me know if you need more help, but I really think that should do it...:)

[MADem]

23. No. His housing allowance, at the WITH DEPENDENTS rate, can (not will) go to the spouse, as well

as any monies that have been previously agreed to as a result of a court action. That shouldn't be a big deal because he'll be living in base quarters in Iraq anyway--no separate billeting allowed over there.

All the military does is enforce existing agreements, but the spouse can gripe and get the housing benefit with a quick trip to court.

That half pay business you're shopping just isn't true--the military does not act like judge and jury, and decide who gets what--that is the job of the courts. Absent a court order, the money goes to the member. Even if the spouse/ex-spouse writes and complains, they tell her or him to go to court and get a judgment. That's how it works. Some COs might "encourage" the member to do the right thing, but absent a court order, unless the family makes waves and brings disrepute upon the Service, nothing's gonna happen with the money he makes.

[rasputin1952]

27. What is the base rate these days for an E-1...

if she gets $700 a month in child support, that's about half, and I'm pretty sure she will go to court and get an upgrade. The $700 is based on what he's paying today on wages earned. Not sure what the pay rates are these days, but it has to beat the $78 bucks a month I got initially...:)

If there is spite in this, she'll go for everything she can, and most likely get it...:(

[MADem]

35. The housing allowance is separate from the base pay. It's a benefit, not a pay.

Housing allowance payment depends on where the house is--the allowance is much higher in, say, Rome Italy or New York City than it is in Idaho or Texas. They've changed the way they compute it over the last ten years or so. I haven't kept up with the methodology, so I don't know if they're doing a better or worse job of keeping payments in sync with locality costs or not.

If you google Fiscal Year (FY) 2007 military pay scales you should be able to come up with the pay -- keep in mind that is before state and federal taxes, and does not include any other special pays, like family separation allowance, or any bonuses received and paid out over time for successful completion of advanced training and performing a special skillset.

I can remember living on peanuts. I had absolutely NO disposable income when I started out, and wasn't above showing up at someone's house around dinnertime to try to cadge a free meal. But then, they were paying people in the dark back then!

[rasputin1952]

42. Things are certainly a little different than when I was in, but I

know how the system works, unless there were some draconian changes.

I made it to Med Plt Sgt, and I recall many a soldier that had trouble w/finance. The Services do not mess around, they do what they are told basically, and your word is worhtless, unless there are scads of paper work, the soldier always loses.

If there is a court order to pay child support, he's going to pay the $700 a month that was ordered. One of the things finance checks is records of such in the courts in the HOR state. They do this while he's being proicessed. Might not get results back immediately, but if it comes up that he owes back child support, he's gonna pay through the nose, all they have to give you is a %age to maintain personal items until you are caught up. If they don't catch this right away and say 90 days down the road, he could owe $2,100, the money will be taken out in increments till it's paid, and the original $700 a month judgement will just keep rolling along and be taken out as well, if it is there, if not, it will just pile up...:(

My daughter was in the Navy and got married to another sailor, he ETS'd to get away from paying her. ANd then there is the back child support that can be pulled from any tax return as well...x(

[MADem]

44. The wronged spouse can speed things up easily by sending a copy of the court order in to the

servicemember's command.

The term you're looking for when they do a garnishment of all the pay, or most of it, due to indebtedness or failure to provide support or what have you, is a "health and comfort" allowance. Enough to buy toothpaste, get a haircut, buy new skivvies, and here's your chow pass, because half the time you're on restriction!

It used to be easy to duck out on those support and court ordered payments--no longer. The transition from individual, locally administered disbursing offices to the centralized DFAS system (with the right password and authorizations, you can access anyone's pay, from anywhere in the world, from a PC--quite a change from the typed and mailed, and later, message-trafficked, pay changes) has totally changed the pay landscape in that regard. And direct deposit is mandatory--no ifs, ands, or buts.

The judgments follow the servicemember even if he or she transfers, because they're annotated at the DOD level, not the unit level. If you want the garnishment to stop, you have to proactively prove that it needs to stop.

[merh]

3. I understand your concern

been there and lost the argument. :(

My niece was enticed into joining the Navy, they offered her the "pay off student loans" deal.

She is a nurse and so far, she is stationed in the states as she was promised.

But who knows how long they will keep their promise. :scared:

All I can do is tell you I understand your concerns and I hope you have better luck than I had.

:hug:

[MADem]

11. They won't bug her until she gets more experience--she's still backfilling for those

who have trauma expertise, see?

[merh]

14. that's what I am afraid of

:scared:

[originalpckelly]

5. Yeah, they probably specifically lied to him. There have been reports...

of the recruiters saying the recruits won't be going to Iraq, that's just not true. They need everyone they can get.

He will probably end up in Iraq once he's trained. The student loans are not worth him losing his life.

He's going to be under the control of Bush, and that's about enough for anyone sane not to join.

[greenbriar]

7. I am going to tell him that

but I want specific examples to back myself up

I am already known as the "crazy bush hater"

[originalpckelly]

19. Here's at least one story:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2626032

[texastoast]

33. I have two Marines who are my son's friends

They joined together in the "buddy" system where they got to go to boot camp together. One did really great in boot camp and "tested out" of going to see battle. He was stationed in Okinawa and crew chiefed (flight engineer?) on a C-130 running missions like moving the bags full of tsunami victims for identification. The other has crew chiefed on one of those very scary helicopters that crash a lot (Apache, I believe) and is now on his second tour of duty in Iraq, third total. His first tour was in Afghanistan.

They took off the September after graduating from high school in 2002. Neither is a boy any more. Their eyes have that sadness that only those people who have seen real horror can have. They try to protect me from it, but I see it. I watched them grow up from children. I hope they make it home to have families and know love and relationships.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

6. My son was told he would go to Cuba...

that didn't happen (thank God! This was before the pictures were released)

He has not been deployed at all, but that is ONLY because he managed to get a spot on the Honor Guard.

They are now scheduled to go to Iraq in 2009 (changed from 2011 just one week ago) :mad:

[Systematic Chaos]

8. Here's over a half million examples of "recruiter" + "lies"

This should keep him and you busy for a while....

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=recruiter+%2B+lies&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

[BlooInBloo]

9. LOL! Then he's probably so stupid that no amount of talking can possibly help.

Many employers offer tuition reimbursement, btw - might be something to look into.

[Systematic Chaos]

12. Well...

...you're succinct if anything. :spray:

[MADem]

10. You tell him that unless he's joining the Coast Guard, he's GOING.

Army and Marines are first out the door. Air Force and Navy are starting to be used as backfill. That will get worse if we continue to "surge."

Tell him not to be a fool. Unless he has a death wish. Or tell him don't listen to me, I only spent decades in uniform!!!

Check the enlistment contract--there are NO assignment guarantees, no matter WHAT the recruiter says.

Repeat that to him TEN times.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

13. K & R I don't know if he is open to doing...

...some reading -- there's some stuff here that might give him pause:

http://ftssoldier.blogspot.com/

Good luck, Greenbriar.

[HeeBGBz]

17. My daughter in the air force

Was told she could choose her MOS once she got done with basic.

[Poiuyt]

28. My nephew also got to choose his MOS, but that doesn't mean she won't be sent overseas

He chose AF security because he wanted to go into law enforcement. He is now on his third tour in Iraq.

[HeeBGBz]

45. No, she DIDNT get to choose- that was the lie.

They chose for her. She wanted computer or accounting, they made her a medical tech. She's been out for a few years now.

As a side note, she graduates from nursing school at 10 am this morning. So she ended up sticking with the medical area.

[madeline_con]

18. Not eligible for financial aid to go to school?

He should look into it. He might be able to get a grant.

[ismnotwasm]

21. After my daughter's deployment in Afghanistan

She reenlisted. (God I was pissed) They told her she wouldn't be deployed for three years, That she would be promoted and part of an elite, smaller striker brigade ( I don't know all the army jargon, but it was something like that) They were completely full of shit, her unit deployed to Iraq in less than a year and she fought her ass off to get out because she was a single Mom. She'd already missed her son's first year in Kindergarten. They completely and totally lied. She pulled her family care plan (which was me and my husband--My husband has MS and we weren't sure we could do another year)They then proceeded to treat her like shit. It's a very long story, and she can tell it better than I can. She had been in 8 and half years and never missed anything, my husband and I would take my grandson for any army shit she had to do at any time, including her Sargent's training and her Air Assault wings.

They lie, lie and then when they're done, they lie some more. They lie to get you in, and they lie to keep you there.

[baldguy]

22. Google is your friend.

[Mend]

24. if he only sees his kids every other weekend, it sounds like he has a lot of

spare time on his hands. A second part-time job to pay for part-time school. Time flies and you have your additional education.

[greenbriar]

29. he has a decent job...he is Help Desk IT for a huge city

makes about 40,000 a year...

but no advancement. He has a few college classes and a HUGE student loan he can't pay back

he lost his mind when he was married.

she is a crazy biotch who ran up HUGE bills and then left him with two kids under 3 to pay child support


they were married for under 5 years and she was pregnant 95% of that time, she had three "miscarriages" cause as long as she was pg..she wouldn't have to work...

like I said...she is one crazy biotch

[SheilaT]

32. Did she get pregnant without his help?

What part of birth control did he have trouble figuring out? He does share some kind of responsibility for hooking up with her.

And if she's managing to raise two kids on only $700 per month, she's a genius at budgeting. I'm impressed at her money management skills.

He needs to think long and hard about the fact that those kids are also his kids and deserve to be supported decently. Perhaps he ought to look into getting custody. And if he starts crying about how the courts always discriminate against the dad, then he needs to look into the help groups out there for men like him.

[greenbriar]

34. she told him she was taking the pill and was not. HE takes great care of his kids

this woman is a crazy biotch who ran up thousands of dollars in phone bills to guys she never met that live in Italy... While he was working 3 jobs and trying to go to school.


she has two children from a previous marriage and gets about 9 hundred from that x too

[greenbriar]

38. he loved her so much he overlooked a lot of shit and was very naive and she knew that

we all told him this marriage was a BAD idea...he didn't listen and put his wife first...

till she fucked him over like we all told her she would...even his friend her x told him

he thought he would be the "magic" to help her be better


HA

[Systematic Chaos]

39. I feel you. Same thing happened to my oldest brother, more or less.

But that's a very long story for another time.

I don't know what he's going to do about his student loans and such but somehow you have GOT to convey and get through to him that joining the military is NOT going to help.

[SaveAmerica]

25. Which branch of the Armed Forces?

His chances are very high that he'll be sent to Iraq if he joins the Army or Marines and probable if he joins the Air Force or Navy (I have a friend who's loved one is in the Navy and is in the middle of the Iraqi desert, very far away from any large bodies of water).

As for experiences, one family member was recruited in high school and was promised she would not go to Iraq (and she and all her close family members were convinced the recruiter wouldn't do her wrong). Within months of signing up guess where she went? Another family member in the Army was promised money to repay college tuition. This money is split up and given after a certain number of years pass so a person doesn't get all their money when they sign up and bail on the army before their contract is up. So if you combine both these samples and remember those who don't come home alive or others who aren't mentally able to go to college, the promise of tuition paid might not be that good of a deal.

At this point in time, joining to get tuition paid is really not that good an idea. The chances are high he could be deployed and if he doesn't believe in the mission and why he's there he could hurt himself and/or his buddies. This administration has made such a mockery of our military, the answer's not really easy. On the one hand, we need soldiers to bolster those who have been abused year after year since 2003. What's happening in Iraq is really not right, it's immoral. The other hand is that they shouldn't be there in the first place. Our servicemembers who are caught in the middle are truly heroes through all of this.

[nealmhughes]

30. The Secretary of the Navy is also the civilian head of the Marine Corps. That is why the Marines

have Navy medics or "docs" as they call them, HM is their actual rating, "hospitalman," but everyone still says "corpsman".

A lot of the paper work is farmed out to the naval Navy when the Marines are in action. There is a reason why Marines say "aye," instead of "yes, sir!" and call a "latrine" in vulgar land and so called "air" forces jargon by it proper term: a head. As in "head call." I'm sure it means something else at a "Fort" or "Post". . .

Former ET2 (SS) here. Oh, the other name for a corpsman is "pecker checker," but with Subic Bay closed down, it is now a quaint anarchism, I suppose. . .

That is why Marines can and often do earn the Navy Cross!

So, there is not an iota of "guaranteed" anything in joining the Navy, but it will probably ensure that he see his kids even less.

[Solly Mack]

26. Student loan repayment programs do exist

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourcesContent/0,13964,44245--,00.html

There are eligibility factors involved and limits.

A lot depends on :

What branch? What MOS? Going enlisted or officer?

I'm sorry - the biggest lie a recruiter tells these days is "you won't go to Iraq/Afghanistan"

Google - stories are out there.

Some MOS's are less likely to deploy to Iraq - BUT - Less likely to deploy to Iraq and will not deploy to Iraq aren't the same at all.

The odds are not in his favor.

That said, some MOS's only deploy as far as Kuwait - (JAG, psychiatry)

He could get lucky...but he shouldn't bank his life on getting lucky.

He can believe what he wants...most do...only to find out later that belief and reality aren't the same.

[greenbriar]

31. he is thinking Air Force

but to me one is no better than the other

[Kelly Rupert]

36. He's right on both counts.

To a point, of course. If he's joining Air Force, as you say, he very well may be deployed to the Mideast. However, he certainly won't be patrolling Baghdad or anything, and he'll be performing mostly safe jobs. (Unless, of course, they stick him in security, in which case the situation changes somewhat) Only 276 USAF personnel have been so much as wounded since the war began. However, if he changes his mind and goes Army or Marines, then hell yes he's going to sunny Mesopotamia.

And he will certainly get money to pay off student loans. That part isn't a lie at all.

[krkaufman]

37. Tell him to wait a couple of years...

... until we're OUT. He joins now, he's going to Iraq.

In the theme of the old Dell commercials.... "Dude!, you're going to Iraq!"

[SoCalDem]

40. Like drinking poison, and thinking you "might not die". n/t

[The_Casual_Observer]

41. Or smoking cigarettes, it only gets other people.

[bobbolink]

43. Share Monkeyman's post with him:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x870508