For those who really want to know why Arizona Law is horrid

[SargeUNN]

I have tried to get out the message on this horrid law but with little help. Here are the problems with this law:

1. The track record of such a law is 100% failure where it has been tried (see 9500 Liberty at YouTube). It has been tried several times in each case creating more profiling, economic problems, and loss of population.

2. You can be on vacation from anywhere and a cop can pull you over for anything they consider you are doing wrong, ask for your citizenship proof (remember Arizona is a state that doesn't believe Obama was born in Hawaii and his birth certificate is a fraud) which if they decide it isn't real they will ask for more and detain you for up to 6 months and in the process you might even be deported.

3. Joe Arpaio has been working on this method for years and it has caused the DoJ to investigate him for profiling. He has abused prisoners, harrassed people that shouldn't have been.

4. It creates even more distrust in the community. The breakdown of the "illegal immigrant" is ignored but some came here legally but due to red tape, lawyer fees, and sometime just a lazy worker in the system, their visa expired. Another type is those who come here, use no social services, maybe brought in by a corporation coyote. They usually just try to stay out of sight and are more law abiding than most citizens. Another are those who came here as infants and have made good grades, stayed out of trouble with the law and made impressive strides in education. Then there are those who come here to create trouble (usually cartel people) and usually come in such a manner they aren't caught in sweeps like Arpaio does. The other groups of course might be aware of them but because they would be caught and deported they won't turn in these who are the real problem. This law just adds to providing cover for the real criminals by putting more work on the cops and not allowing more time to go after the real problem, cost the taxpayer more for less results.

[slackmaster]

1. I think it's possible to critique the law without materially mis-stating what it will do

2. You can be on vacation from anywhere and a cop can pull you over for anything they consider you are doing wrong, ask for your citizenship proof...

Proof of citizenship is not required. Only proof of lawful presence.

...which if they decide it isn't real they will ask for more and detain you for up to 6 months and in the process you might even be deported.

Actually, if you can't convince an Arizona law-enforcement person that your presence in the state is lawful, they will turn you over to federal authorities.

[SargeUNN]

2. actually sir it is correct

I have seen it happen here and it is documented. You only have to read of Arpaio raids to see proof. Also here at DU you can see a thread of an American citizen being deported. You are so incorrect.

[NoNothing]

3. The law is not in effect yet

So anything you claim is currently happening is unrelated to this specific law.

[damntexdem]

6. This specific law is part of an anti-immigrant movement of which Arpaio is a participant.

The law will be used to justify practices already perpetrated by Arpaio and others.

[SargeUNN]

8. Joe Arpaio has been using this for some time

Why do you think the DoJ has been investigating Arpaio? He has been doing these things already.

[Caliman73]

17. Correct, but off base..

The law has not gone into effect yet, but the OP is talking about how laws of this nature have historically lead to abuses. The federal statutes on immigration are similar to the current Arizona law and there have been reports of unlawful detention, racial profiling, and the like. This coming from agents trained specifically on handling immigration situations. The AZ law broadens the responsibility of the police to intervene in immigration affairs. Police departments that are already overstretched with other issues and who have their own problems with profiling. When you expand the power of the police and compel them to become involved in duties which they themselves are not comfortable with and have no specific training in, you create problems.

There are already problems. There will be more as a result of this law if it goes into effect.

[slackmaster]

5. The law doesn't take effect until July 29, so whatever you are referring to is unrelated to it

Nice try.

[Caliman73]

20. Similar to other laws..

Slack, you should know where this is going based on your advocacy on another forum on DU. It is just like laws proposed to stop a certain type of violence or crime. More laws and more expansion of police powers into the lives of the populace does not necessarily solve the problem and create consequences. The AZ law is like many gun control laws. The intention may be valid, but the practical implications of the law are going to create a difficult situation as seen by the existence of similar laws on the federal level. Take the AWB law that expired federally. California still has one in effect, that has done little to nothing to deter crime. Arizona enacting an immigration law compelling local police to engage in immigration service will create similar problems to what the Feds have been going through on a wider scale because there will be more cooks in the kitchen, more jurisdictional issues and more lawsuits.

[frylock]

23. those who fail to learn from history..

yaddayaddayadda.

[damntexdem]

4. Not true -- if the authorities doubt your citizenship, the police cannot release you ...

until the Federal Government has confirmed your status -- apparently even if you can show evidence to local authorities in the meantime.

[slackmaster]

7. Here's a link to the text. Please point out the part that supports your claim.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

[SargeUNN]

9. slackmaster

first I live in Arizona, I have been doing radio shows on this for months interviewing all sides of this, read the law and what anyone doing an indepth study would. If you want to hear my shows are podcast along with interviews.

[atreides1]

12. This is a state law

What does the federal statute say?

Though this part of the law is interesting:

D. NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER LAW, A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY MAY
33 SECURELY TRANSPORT AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES
34 AND WHO IS IN THE AGENCY'S CUSTODY TO A FEDERAL FACILITY IN THIS STATE OR TO
35 ANY OTHER POINT OF TRANSFER INTO FEDERAL CUSTODY THAT IS OUTSIDE THE
36 JURISDICTION OF THE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY.

I seriously doubt that any state law enforcement agency can compel any fedral facility to accept a person they suspect of being here illegally.

I worked at the Pima County jail down in Tucson for three years, and any time they arrested an illegal, there was a set procedure that had to be followed before the Feds would accept that person.

[SargeUNN]

15. you might find this interesting

check out the videos at youtube by searching 9500 Liberty. One section there is actually a supervisor's meeting where the ICE officials talk about the problems of people turned over to them by the local law enforcement after a similiar law went into effect in Prince William County Va. It is very revealing.

[joeybee12]

10. Why the hell is this being un-recced? And why the hell is anyone supporting

this horrendous piece of shit legislation?

[JonLP24]

11. +1

Nice to agree with you joey. :hi:

[joeybee12]

13. I know, it's so rare!!!

:hi:

[SargeUNN]

14. sadly some here do support it

I did a poll and amazingly about 27% said they supported it out of 70 responses.

[SargeUNN]

16. the rec/unrec has become so meaningless I don't care about it

Some will do one of the options just for the hell of it without knowing what a thread says. Personally they might as well deactivate it since it is useless.

[EFerrari]

19. Sarge's poll the other day showed about 30% support for this POS here.

Apparently, racial profiling is just fine with some people.

[readmoreoften]

28. It's instructional to consider that when the German Social Democratic party fell apart

its right-wing constituents quickly bolstered the ranks of the Nazi camp. At the time it was called "social chauvinism"-- meaning pro-labor, but with an underlying nationalist character.

[EFerrari]

30. Nationalism. Battery acid for the mind, and the soul, for that matter. n/t

[EFerrari]

18. That's an excellent run down. I'll add, this law makes it easier for the Republicans

to suppress the Latino vote in a state that is 30+% Latinos who vote with Democrats. :shrug:

[Caliman73]

21. Perhaps

I try not to be cynical, but it creeps in. I think that some of what is fueling the law is definitely frustration with the federal government and fear caused by the slumping economy. I also definitely think that some of the fuel is just the old racism and fear of the changing demographic in the country. I did not consider the angle of voter suppression. It may well be the case that some of the worst in the group pushing these laws are doing so to suppress minority representation. Very sad and disturbing.

[EFerrari]

22. All they have to do to tie up a Latino precinct is go in and challenge citizenship.

Even if they are wrong and even knowingly wrong, they can shut the place down for hours. And that will discourage voters from GOTV because who wants to go to a place where they know they will be hassled?

Jan Brewer made all kinds of fake claims about "illegals" voting when she was Sec of State. When Greg Palast and Bobby Kennedy challenged her to show evidence, she had none. Definitely, vote suppression is on the agenda. AZ is 30+% Latino.

:shrug:

[SargeUNN]

25. You are correct

The reason many are now undocumented is they tried to get their visas renewed, even in some cases paid lots of money to lawyers, only to have some worker sit on it. Others that have been here since they were 2 years old or near it, know if they apply they have to go back to a country they don't know, wait 10 years to apply and then they will be denied because they were here before. I have interviewed several who have told me this.

We really need to set up a system where they can get citizenship, make it reasonable in time and cost, and instead of putting them on the list for law enforcement, set it up to where they won't be afraid to get into it. This would also free up more money and resources to go after the ones who are the real criminals.

[EFerrari]

26. A person from Mexico can be looking at a line that is 20 or more years long. n/t

[SargeUNN]

24. as for the law having no effect because it hasn't gone into effect

that is pure crap. Already businesses are seeing loss of money due to the law, citizens are moving out, the economy as a whole is already dropping. To make such a statement is too narrow-minded and lacking of looking at the big picture, it is as useless as it can be.

[slackmaster]

27. "...citizens are moving out..."

Name one.

[SargeUNN]

29. now that is silly Slackmaster

Why would I name one just to put their name out there for these idiots. If you really will listen to it I can give you a podcast of my show where an expert who works with this verifies that fact. Also my apartment manager can tell you it is a fact. You are being a little silly there. By the way are you for or against this law?

[slackmaster]

31. I'm challenging the veracity of your claim. You can prove what you are saying by naming names.

Otherwise, you've got nothing.

If you really will listen to it I can give you a podcast of my show where an expert who works with this verifies that fact.

Does that person name names?

Also my apartment manager can tell you it is a fact.

Hearsay.

[SargeUNN]

32. will you listen to the podcast?

I will provide you the link with it, but I think I have made a challenge to you before to call my show and you didn't. Truthfully I don't think you are open to hearing it because you are a supporter of this law and like those here, you refuse anything that shows how wrong it is. I did note you refused to answer if you supported this law or not. Hmmm your silence speaks so loudly.

[slackmaster]

33. If names are named on the podcast, there's no reason you can't post them here

Let's see them.

[SargeUNN]

34. will you listen to the podcast? You failed to answer

you obviously will refuse to do so because you refuse to hear what you don't want to hear. By the way I am still waiting to hear you say if you are for against the law? Are you that ashamed of your position? I will state openly I am against it but you won't even show that much. You certainly must not be too proud of your position.

[slackmaster]

35. I want you to provide proof for your claim that US citizens are moving out of AZ because of SB 1099

Specifically because they personally fear being harassed.

I've seen the claim made several times, but have not seen one person come forward and say "I am a US citizen, and I'm moving out of Arizona because I fear being harassed as a result of SB 1099."

Just one would be enough.

[SargeUNN]

36. I tried to keep this civil but

you are obviously not aware that your failure to state your position tells me to be cautious of disclosing such information to you. I will refer you to Arizona Republic, East Valley Tribune who have all ran articles stating it, but with you nothing would prove anything to you. I could make up a name but would you know it? You are being childish and closed minded so you don't really want to know because you are biased and support this stupidity and nothing will change that. I will not waste anymore time on your silliness.

[slackmaster]

37. Not even a link to an article in the Arizona Republic, East Valley Tribune, etc.?

I have a sneaking suspicion that all they did was quote other people who made the same claim.

That sounds like propaganda to me.

[SargeUNN]

38. you must look for yourself

I remember you and once invited you to call into my show and you refused. You were asked to listen to a podcast and you refused to take time for that, so I really think I will let you do something for yourself and maybe, just maybe it might do you some good. You don't seem to care and you really won't do anything to learn more. You are one of those who I do see spending too much time with being of any value.

[slackmaster]

40. I think you're just pimping your show here

So there.

:hi:

[Scurrilous]

39. K & R

:thumbsup: