Question for folks who think the country is going to shit

[snooper2]

Has been going to shit, Obama is shit, capitalism is absolute shit, and all corporations/companies are the ultimate evil-



How come communal living hasn't taken off?

Can't do without the DU's?
No phone, no lights no motor cars,
Not a single luxury,
Like Robinson Crusoe,
As primative as can be.

[Oregone]

1. I think air pollution is shit

Its tough to make myself stop breathing it in this world though

[stray cat]

3. you can not contribute to it

[Oregone]

4. Yup, but I still got to breathe it

Even though I think its shit


You would just think that, based on the tone of the OP, anything you think is "shit" is easy to cast away in this world that is not of our choosing

[snooper2]

6. Air looks pretty good here... 1045 acres

"About Our Land
{mosimage}Our land is mostly wooded and rocky with some fields. We have a total of 1045 acres which includes 190 leased acres of adjacent land from the government. Our property is about two miles west of Norfork Lake. Lick Creek flows around the property before draining into the lake. Our water source is our well, which taps a deep aquifer and is capable of serving the needs of a village size population. Our buildings are scattered on a ridge that runs from north to south. The south end of the ridge overlooks a beautiful valley, our fields, the tree line of the creek, and the densely wooded hills beyond."

http://www.eastwind.org/

[Oregone]

11. There's still people there

And I think people are shit

That aside, Ive recently been considering switching to a more agrarian lifestyle. My wife and I are talking about moving onto one of the small gulf islands. No idea yet about it. Weve been known to make some rash decisions.

[donco6]

19. I hear as long as you don't dig too far, it's clean as a whistle!

And if you wear a ventilator, you can even get some sun!

[Oregone]

20. I meant the islands in the Strait of Georgia

We just moved up to the big island from Oregon 2 years ago. But those little ones across the water have a certain draw, and less people too.

[uppityperson]

30. One of the problems is lack of topsoil, what with recent glaciation

Lack of jobs and expensive land too, but doing a partial subsistence lifestyle is possible. Beautiful there.

Edit, figured out what the Big Island was. Next time I take Black Ball, want to have lunch if you are local enough?

[Oregone]

38. There is some beautiful land throughout the rocky outcroppings

Salt Spring Island alone has a bit of farm-able soil (and there is a ton up north by Comox on Vancouver Island too). Working from home, I wouldn't need to worry about a job. And Id phase that out at first opportunity. But hey...who knows if we'd ever get to that point without starting capital


"want to have lunch if you are local enough?"

I moved out of Victoria and way up island into a small (sustainable) town. Sounds fun too, but sacrificing my anonymity would compromise my ability to be an asshole without recourse. :)

[liberal N proud]

2. The Amish are doing OK without DU, phone, lights, cars etc.

But then they do deal with a lot of shit. Horse shit!

[jgraz]

66. Amish life satisfaction rivals that of billionaires

http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2007/03/happiness_wealth_and_the_amish.php

So what's the solution? Is it possible to step off the hedonic treadmill? The best approach involves silencing our desires, restraining the insatiable appetite of our dopamine neurons. This is what the Amish have done. They have learned to live without modern consumerism. They don't use cars, reject the Internet, avoid the mall, and prefer a quite permanence to heady growth. The end result is a happiness boom. The Amish turn out to be as satisfied with their lives as members of the Forbes 400. Furthermore, their rates of depression are more than ten fold lower than the rest of the American population. The Amish are content because they have learned to ignore their dopaminergic pleas for more.

[villager]

5. Good "Intentional Communities" website here:

http://www.ic.org/

[donco6]

7. How is a commune the answer to Obama going to shit? n/t

[snooper2]

8. It's an answer for folks who hate everything I listed...

But yet they still post on the Intertubes while paying evil (Insert Service Provider here) for the access.

[donco6]

9. So by eliminating internet access, Obama gets better?

I'll have to think about that.

[Oregone]

13. Yep, and climate change will kill everyone except you

[treestar]

44. If you hate corporations so much, why are you paying a huge one

for internet access?

[donco6]

50. How does that change Obama? n/t

[treestar]

81. Everyone who pays huge corporations for their products does way more

than a President ever could. You claim he's in their pocket, why do they have so much money? You claim he's the one at fault. He's not forcing you to pay them and make them rich - you're making them rich and then blaming the politicians.

[donco6]

92. You must have me confused with someone else.

I speak of no such thing. I'm focused on the esoteric argument suggested by the OP:

Question for folks who think the country is going to shit, has been going to shit, Obama is shit, capitalism is absolute shit, and all corporations/companies are the ultimate evil-

How come communal living hasn't taken off?

Again, I repeat, how does communal living solve the problem of "Obama is shit"?

[EOTE]

84. Not me. I get my internet access from Ma&Pa.net.

Ma makes the best Pecan Pie and Pa has helped me with my lawn trimmer a number of times. 14Mbps down/3Mbps for $35 a month. Not bad.

[Oregone]

17. Love it or leave it baby

It being modern civilization

[Joe Fields]

34. you shouldn't assume that those who are displeased with Obama

hate all of the other things you mentioned.

[snooper2]

49. I don't think that...I.E. the complete list

nt

[Joe Fields]

51. that is the inference of your thread...n.t.

[slackmaster]

10. I don't like having other people around me all the time

Sometimes I vant to be alone.

[NeedleCast]

12. I would guess that 95% of the people saying the country is going to shit

Have never lived in a 2nd or 3rd world country and really have no basis for comparison...which is why their hyperbole is amusing.

[MineralMan]

15. +10

[proteus_lives]

54. +20

[EFerrari]

62. 95% of all Americans have probably never lived in a third world country

so your comparison is sort of meaningless.

[MineralMan]

77. Not really. It's a point of reference issue.

While not a third-world country, I lived in Turkey for 15 months, courtesy of the USAF. Because I worked on a rotating shift schedule, I had four days off in a row each shift cycle. I took that opportunity to hike in the Turkish countryside. Fairly soon, I had discovered a small village about five miles away from the Air Force base where I was stationed. It had no road coming to it at all, and had about 100 residents.

Over several months, I got to know the people who lived there, and enjoyed their hospitality, such as was available. I soon saw that there was zero health care, and that many of the children had trachoma. Other ailments, like skin ulcerations were pretty widespread, too, as happens in places where people live as they did 1000 years ago. Not more than a couple of people in that village had ever even been to the city that was just five miles away.

So, I talked to the medic who was assigned to our base, described the place and the kinds of things the people were suffering from and he equipped me with a very good medical kit and supplied me with antibiotic ointment for the trachoma and medicine for the other common illnesses I was seeing. So, I got to be the village's only medical resource. Eventually, I was going there during every shift rotation.

I brought other things there, too, from a battery-operated radio, since there was no radio in the entire village, Turkish books and playthings for the kids, like balls and other simple toys, and other things from time to time.

Before I left Turkey, I brought another Air Force guy, who had recently arrived, with me for a few visits. He took over my visits after I left.

It is a point of reference for me. It is an example of how many people on this planet live. It informs me and humbles me. It moderates my experience with people living in poverty here in the USA.

So, yes, it is important that people have experience in other social environments. It is a point of reference that cannot be obtained in any other way.

[EFerrari]

79. As a point of reference, most people on both sides of this debate

have not lived in a third world country so yes, the comparison is meaningless.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that more people who are critical of the United States have more experience in third world countries than people who are uncritical.

[MineralMan]

86. And I'd be willing to bet you're wrong.

It's a mistake to draw conclusions from insufficient evidence. I know quite a few people who have lived in third world countries. They run the gamut of political viewpoints. But...my sample is far too small to draw any general conclusions.

[EFerrari]

87. In my experience, people who have left their provincial cocoon

for any length of time are more critical of the US because they expect more from it than from El Salvador or Haiti or Somalia.

Sure, the conservatives like one of my uncles use the conditions of third world nations to shore up their American exceptionalism but most of the time, in order to do that they have to obviate the US contribution to the conditions in El Salvador, Haiti and Somalia.

I don't think I'm wrong. Put up a poll if you like. Most people who are uncritical of this country have never left the state, let alone the country.

[MineralMan]

88. Such polls don't produce accurate results. Too small a

sample.

[EFerrari]

89. All polls have problems. But again, in my experience on DU

it is the majority of people who have experience in third world countries who are critical of this one, not the other way around.

[LostinVA]

64. I think people compare the US to other first-world nations

I don't compare the US to Mali or Mongolia or Belize, I compare it to Canada, or Sweden, or New Zealand.

[jgraz]

69. So we should hold off complaining until we resemble Uganda?

Is that your point?

[Spheric]

76. I would guess that 95% of the people saying the country is just fine

Have never lived outside of a gated community. They really have no basis for comparison, but I still don't find their hyperbole all that amusing.

[Number23]

99. THANK. YOU

I have personally known people who have had their governments deny them the right to an education and have killed their family members right in front of them who don't whine as much as some of the folks here.

It is the very height of privilege that so many think that their lives are so horrible while living better than 99% of the entire world.

[pipi_k]

101. I can understand people saying that things could be better here...

as they could with just about any human enterprise...

but I agree with you...people who say the country is going to absolute shit would probably think this is a pretty good place to live after all if they had to live in a 2nd or 3rd world country.

One of those countries whose natives often give their very lives in the process of trying to get here...

[Grey]

14. communal living or Co-Ops?

A bit of reading for you.

http://thetyee.ca/News/2010/07/05/CoOpInYourFuture/

[sinkingfeeling]

16. What does thinking the country, Obama, or capitalism is s**t have to do with living

on a commune? There are plenty of civilized countries that don't want to be 'little USAs' or global empires that offer utilities and single-family houses.

[Oregone]

18. Obama's rejection of the idea of single-payer will no longer bother you

Why do you need health care when the wolves will tear you to pieces? Its the perfect solution for malcontents.

When your crops freeze and you look like this:



You have more problems to worry about than how "pragmatic" Obama is being.

Wolves and famine put politics in perspective

[sinkingfeeling]

22. Totally unconnected in any sense.

[snooper2]

28. you won't have to worry about any of that

Just make sure when you take a shit you put it on the compost pile..

[sinkingfeeling]

33. I think this post is full of it.

[Subdivisions]

21. If you take into account all the forms 'communal' living can take, then it has taken off.

Look up "intentional communities".

[Oregone]

26. I browsed at some of those near me....some cost a fortune to join!

Like this one here:
http://directory.ic.org/6204/Pacific_Gardens_Cohousing_Community

3 bedroom for $509K

Another near by needs you to have $200K cash

And another requires you to have no debt at all (which is a stretch for any young college grad)

[Deep13]

23. false dilemma.

Not against modernity, just against it's abuses.

[Ozymanithrax]

24. Shit isn't shit, its feralizer... n/t

[EstimatedProphet]

48. It makes things wild?

:)

[Tailormyst]

25. With the economy tanking more people will be sharing living spaces

As for the rest of your post: You made yourself look childish and ignorant.

[okie]

27. Your question doesn't make sense

Why would not liking your government, and thinking 'capitalism is absolute shit' entail going primitive?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. yeah, i was wondering that too.

[Oregone]

31. Maybe if they thought all of modern technology was shit

[snooper2]

36. You can have a computer

and still live on a commune FYI

[snooper2]

35. You wouldn't be going totally primative..

Some of these communes even have satellite internet...

I see folks posting here who hate/despise all the items I listed so what's stopping them from going the socialist route and living on a commune?

Why continue to pay Reliant Energy every month? Worry about your pension? Your 401K?

Why aren't communes the answer for a lot of these folks? Off the grid?

[okie]

42. Lots of folks do...

...attempt to live 'off the grid'. Most of those wouldn't be called socialist, however. Socialism does not equal communes, or going back to the land. I think that's a big misunderstanding. The point is to change the system, not try to retreat from it (something I don't believe you can meaningfully do).

Lots of socialists want to live in cities. See: The Right to the City, by David Harvey. We want to retire. We want to use cell phones and call our mothers. We would just prefer to change the exploitation underlying all that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Ah it finally comes out

you really do NOT understand what socialism is.

Nor what capitalism is, for that matter. If you did, you'd understand we do NOT live under a Capitalist system either...

I could recommend a few books, but you've bought the myths line, hook, sinker, all the way to the shoulder or worst.

[sailor65]

32. Are you seriously suggesting

that I have to get myself shipwrecked with a couple of hot women and a fat guy to help pollution?

Sorry, couldn't resist :-)

[librechik]

37. land isn't cheap like it used to be

it keeps a lot of folks from going back to the land, for sure.

[JackRiddler]

40. You are giving far too much credit to the OP with that answer.

[Oregone]

41. Totally true

My parents didn't have a dime when they moved to where I was born. They got a small 10+ acre farm on an owner carry loan, and raised us in the sticks with our own milk, veggies, eggs, etc. The meat came from the rivers. They needed very little to setup shop there, and quickly paid it off in 15 years. Some time later, they sold the land for half a million.

I wouldn't even know where to start to get something like that. An acre around where I live costs half a million (with a small home on it)

[JackRiddler]

39. This is another variant on "love it or leave it"

Don't like the US government and corporate policies? Build a commune!

What, you didn't build a commune? Then shut the fuck up! Commie!!!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

53. exactly.nt

[G_j]

55. been a lot of that lately

flash from the past..

:think:

[G_j]

56. The "Blame America First" crowd

I hear it on FOX!

[Greyhound]

43. Nice. A clear demonstration of logical fallacies.

:kick: & U

[Name removed]

45. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oregone]

46. This solution helps the OP more than anything

They wouldn't have to hear dissent against the neo-liberal policies they embrace. For the commune immigrant, it most certainly doesn't make those policies go away or change.

[EstimatedProphet]

47. Let me see if I understand the gist of what you're saying:

You're annoyed about people that gripe about everything.

So you gripe about them.

[snooper2]

58. nope, just asking a question...

nt

[EstimatedProphet]

91. A heavily loaded question.

[The_Commonist]

52. I've lived in two big communes.

Famous ones.
They had nothing to do with no phones, no lights and no motor cars.
And that's why communal living hasn't taken off.
That's the perception.

In fact, in one of the communes I lived in, in the late 80's and early 90's, we were Inc. Magazine's 33rd fastest growing company in the country. We sold Macintosh computers, and made a shit-ton of money. We made money like capitalists and spent it like communists. Unfortunately, we made some bad decisions and the commune imploded. The other commune I lived in is still thriving nicely after over 30 years.

It all about perception. And you obviously, in asking the question the way you do, buy into the notion that communes MUST be "back to the land" and primitive. Not so.

Where I live now, there are tons of young people living casual communal lifestyles. I think we will see much more of that in the coming years, as the kids realize that the American Dream is over.

Wanna learn more about the hundreds of communes that exist in this country and the rest of the world?
Start here:

http://www.ic.org/

The Fellowship for Intentional Community

[snooper2]

59. I've read a lot about communes...

and linked to one in a reply above...and yes, I understand you aren't making your homes out of branches if you live on a commune.

Was actually interested in it at one time...The Gilligan's Island reference was more tounge in cheek :)


Obviously people here took offense to the notion. I was asking a simple question. If you really hate all the cars, corporations, banks, etc., why don't you live more closely to your beliefs?

[The_Commonist]

71. I think it's the brainwashing.

I think we have generations of such complete corporate propaganda rolling around in our psyches, that anything other than the one-family/one-home model is seen as being totally foreign. There is really no model for or encouragement to try something else, so people don't even consider it.

We've all seen how most of the country reacts when a "Socialist" who is a really corporatist gets elected president. Anti-communism is still a valid bogey-man, and seemingly intelligent people freak out when you tell them that you are interested in communal living.

I don't know how many hundreds of times I heard people say "I could never live that way... I'm too selfish." That's why communal living has never taken off in a big way. People want the right to be selfish, and they don't even consider the possibility of having a much better standard of living for much cheaper just by sharing. The simple notion that you can get more bang for your buck is almost always offset by the possibility of jerking off in the living room whenever you want.

Besides, communal living isn't the only way to get away from all the cars, banks and corporations. But people get stuck on the treadmill, and it's very difficult to get off sometimes. Particularly if you have kids. I do think that, and frankly hope and am working towards making communal living a viable option in the future. It's all about the perception...

[mdmc]

57. yup

I am part of the problem
drillbabydrill

[RandomThoughts]

60. Everyone is part of the problem.

And not realizing that is part of the problem.

Although many people do do many good things. Heh I said due due.

But anyways, so yea, those that think they will solve every problem by getting rid of some other group, or by some other group being the bad guys, usually does not see the problems.

However everyone is even more part of fixing the problems, so personally I am not worried.

I will say this, how long till people understand the comment, I do not have smokes or beer? And is that part of the problem also?



Anyway, I like your comment, admitting being part of the problem is part of the first step :)

And a big step to being a bigger problem :)



:) ;( :9 B-) :+ O8) :evilgrin: :party: :mad: :smoke: :think: :crazy: :silly: :dunce: :nopity: :beer: :wow: :spank: :hi: :tinfoilhat: :hug: :cry: :banghead: :dilemma: :applause: :popcorn: :rofl: :spray:

= ???





AC/DC - Thunderstruck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvoeeq-BH4w

[mdmc]

100. yesyes

:pals:

[Dogtown]

61. Maybe because we're sticking it out

trying to change all of your "shit".

[EFerrari]

63. Why do you think people who live communally don't have those things?

?

[Rex]

65. Whaaaaat? How do you get communal living and being stranded on an island

mixed together like that? It makes your question seem rather silly and not worth an answer. Go do some research on communal living in America in the 1960 - 70s and get back with us when you understand a little more.

[marmar]

67. This post is sh*t

[jgraz]

68. Fucker -- beat me to it.

:P

[Rex]

98. 'You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means.'

Inigo Montoya

[LanternWaste]

70. Not only is this a fallacious use of the either-or qualifier...

Not only is you OP a fallacious use of the either-or qualifier, it's a damnably stupid one as well.

[End Of The Road]

72. No communal living for me. Just paid off my house. nt

[jgraz]

73. Question for folks who think drinking piss is bad

How come people aren't drinking Drano?

Turned off by the taste of lye?
Do you like having an esophagus?
Are you that attached to your stomach lining?
Can you spell the word "primitive"?


Then drink your piss and be happy!




Oh yeah: :eyes:

[walldude]

75. ROFL...

the strawman laid to waste :toast:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

82. ...

:thumbsup:

[ima_sinnic]

94. lol!

:spray:

[Tailormyst]

104. I have to say

I REALLY love your posts.

[TheKentuckian]

78. I'm a liberal not a luddite, Jim.

Moving past failed Reganomics, corporate capture of government great and small, theocratic distortions as pretense to create inequality and violation of the sanctity of love, body, and self determination, economic royalty, empire building, and unsustainable and environmentally destructive consumerism is not seeking the wilderness but real and broadly shared progress.

Big profits and great power require relative scarcity and comparative weakness. Our present systems are not the answers to the problems of today or tomorrow and in fact actually help induce them.

It's also kind of not getting why a vampire casino is confused with investment, why corporations are placed over people and prominence over the government that permits their existence, and that changing and updating failed and outdated systems can only mean partying like it's 899.

I honestly don't see the point of view.

[ima_sinnic]

80. just stopping by to unrec

[KonaKane]

83. In the Riviera, people complain about slow room service.

It's all relative. Always has been.

[Oregone]

93. Those Riviera people should immigrate to Canada as farm hands then

I hear its easy as pie

[KonaKane]

96. Or they can simply complain about it.

That's even easier.

[readmoreoften]

85. Your post is so fucking silly, it's hard to even imagine where to begin replying.

Capitalists make our cell phones and our motor cars? Oh, I didn't realize. I thought it was workers: engineers, designers, assembly liners. I didn't realize that stockholders actually were making everything I own. I thought they were just profiting off the labor of people with actual jobs. SILLY ME! I'm sorry. I must've missed those pictures of Goldman Sachs execs leaving the office to go design some new web technologies and cure cancer.

[jgraz]

95. For not being able to imagine replying, you did a pretty damn good job.

:thumbsup:

[conspirator]

90. And I will say it again CAPITALISM IS SHIT n/t

[Dank Nugs]

97. The Goverment has abdicated their responsibility to provide us w/ tools needed for self-reliance.

This is by intent, not mere ineptness.

[Bluenorthwest]

102. What a bunch of unrelated bs, leaps of illogic and

basic misunderstandings of words it took to make this post. To the OP, why on earth do you conflate cooperative living with a life of renunciation of modern things?
And then, how do you connect how people run their home economy with outside political interests? I mean, this question would have been the same 3 years ago. Was using a computer somehow an endorsement of Bush? The fact that you did not move to a collective, does that mean that in your eyes Bush did well, and you stood with him? Or were the reasons you did not move to a commune unrelated to your view of Bush?
I mean, if you did not endorse Bush, why didn't give it all up? Was your rent and every meal a vote to bomb Bagdad? Or not?

[mmonk]

103. The straw dog of all straw dogs.

Do you really think those are the only choices?

[Winston Wolf]

105. Your OP Is The Very Definition of Flame Bait

Tensions have been running very high on DU, and this OP adds fuel to the fire.

I do not see how your OP serves any discernable constructive purpose.

If you do have a legitimate concern with those who criticize the President or the US government, please frame it in a manner that does not come of as utterly divisive.