Those on Gulf Coast - did we bailout GM et al for this...?

[scentopine]

Here in Texas nearly every commercial is for big gas guzzling trucks. They're back. Bigger than ever. Big manly trucks for, you know, stuff like going to grocery store and work and soccer practice.

Really, there is something very not so manly about a manly man's love for his big pretty truck, all shiny with leather seats, gentle ride and cup holders and such. I guess an MBA with soft hands wants to be ready in case he needs to haul some drill pipe to an oil well. Or something.

How can people on Gulf stomach this kind of shit right now? Your taxes are paying for these commercials. Just think if we had used that money in more constructive ways. Another squandered opportunity for change.

[spoony]

1. "something very effeminate"

Nice homophobic slurs there, pal.

[scentopine]

2. No homophobic here - I agree, I changed the wording

that was not my intent, but I guess effeminate has taken on a completely different meaning these days.

Its the contrast between the desire to buy into an image of a manly and rugged individual (hence the cowboy imagery in every fucking truck commercial) and the obsession of comfort and style. Of course women have roles in these commercials - giving sly, suggestive smiles to the cowboy driving the truck.

Toss in a major gas guzzling engine, tons of weight and short trips around town, and its all just so fucking wrong.

[yella_dawg]

3. Hey! Ease up!

Big oil and the car companies spent zillions over decades to convince everyone that safety, virility, and for all I know, good nutrition, are all dependent on your buying a shiny, new, high-profit-margin truck every year. They worked hard selling the bullshit, then teaching their victims to defend the behemoths as somehow legitimate or useful. Let them reap their reward, the environment isn't in total collapse. Yet.


$40,000 Tonka trucks. There simply is no justification.

[Fumesucker]

4. It only took a couple of months after gas dropped back to "normal" prices..

After being $4.50 a gallon for the F150 to become the most popular vehicle in America again.

Americans don't have the collective memory of a flatworm, flatworms at least can remember pain and avoid situations that have lead to pain in the past.

[amandabeech]

5. Unfortunately, these things sell.

That's why Toyota and Nissan make them and advertise them.

If GM sells enough of these things, GM will be able to pay back the loans.

I guess you didn't notice that Ford has just introduced a spiffy new Fiesta mini-car based on the European model of the same name. Real cute. I bet you'd like it!

[obxhead]

6. The Fiesta was on our roads too, back in the late 80's

early 90's. Had a 3 cylinder engine. My friend had one and it got great gas mileage. I will say it spent a lot of time on jack stands being worked on too. Many days I spent with busted knuckles and a lot of swearing.

As for the trucks, I agree 100%. People want them so they are built and advertised. Most of the buyers will regret them once gas shoots back up to the normal price of $4+ a gallon.

[scentopine]

7. So do cigarettes...

we don't have to subsidize them or encourage people to smoke them. There is a price to pay for big, inefficient trucks that last 6 or 7 years and then enter the waste stream.

These damn things are absolutely toxic. Recall the auto industry is the most change resistant industry in America - for the rich CEO that is.

Detroit said - "bust up the unions and we will bring jobs and prosperity to America" so we did, and the rich got richer, the non-rich got screwed

Then they said - "moving to mexico will bring jobs and prosperity to America" so they did, and rich got richer, non-rich got screwed.

Then they said - "mvoing to china will bring jobs and prosperity to America", so they did and the rich got richer, non-rich got screwed

Then they said, "after our billion dollar bonuses, we don't have any money left, give us billions of tax dollars and we'll bring jobs and prosperity to America, we are too big to fail", so we did and the rich got richer and the non-rich got screwed.

The auto industry fights fuel efficiency, safety requirements, just about anything that means a culture change. I don't understand why democrats keep supporting them.

As long as the CEOs keep sucking up our tax money to pay their salaries, nothing will change.

After the rape and pillage of the non-rich at the root of our jobless recovery, and the disaster in the gulf - it is inconceivable that some suburban desk jockey would go out and plunk down $40K on a gas guzzling behemoth. There are better things to subsidize then these big lumbering pieces of crap. What a waste.

[blue_onyx]

9. You are incorrect

Detroit didn't say to "bust up the unions." It was Toyota and other foreign companies that broke the unions. The Detroit automakers were told to be "competitive" with the foreign, non-union companies. That is why union auto workers now make the same as workers at the non-union companies. Most vehicles made by the US automakers are union made so your anger about the "bust up the unions" should be directed at Toyota and other foreign automakers.

BTW, GM isn't the only company that makes "big, inefficient trucks."

[blue_onyx]

8. Huh?

What does the oil spill have to do with bailing out GM?

[scentopine]

13. My observation is that GM is using govt. cash to push market

gas & oil guzzling trucks in an areas that are dealing with a coastal disaster caused by an insatiable demand for oil.

Trucks and big SUVs are push marketed. The irony and insanity of it all should be called out.

The irony is similar to bailing out the banks at the root of world wide economic collapse while taking real derivatives reform and TBTF completely off the table.

We can't seem to break away from our destructive behavior. We love to give cash to companies with no strings attached.

It was an $80 billion dollar bailout. Push marketing gas guzzlers during a massive oil disaster isn't a good use of that money.

Japan is rumored to have heavily subsidized hybrid development long after Detroit said it wouldn't sell. Japan continues to subsidize their cars with consumer incentives - Prius is top car (not just hybrid) in Japan. Japanese people arebuying a high quality car (yes, I am aware of the Toyota quality fuck up, withstanding that, Prius is still a damn good car).

There is some work on this front here in US, but the effort so far doesn't have full democratic support. And big 3 are not on board.

http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1870

According to spokesfolks from the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which represents foreign and domestic mainstream automakers, the proposed legislation

risks resulting in federal resources becoming overly concentrated in a small number of communities, which could establish electric cars as boutique vehicles… Electric cars and their infrastructure should be available to everyone nationwide, not just people in select communities

Another sign that the big boys don’t like this bill: not a single member of Michigan’s congressional delegation has signed onto the bills yet. In an interview with EETV, the Electrification Coalition’s Policy Director Sam Ori defends the bills’ local focus as necessary to keep government costs down and maintain fiscal responsibility.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/11b-electric-drive-vehicle-deployment-act-introduced-industry-says-no-thanks/

Just like Detroit held their noses over hybrid technology, they still poo poo EV. Then, as China and Europe Govt. investment develops this technology, we'll continue to invest in gas guzzlers and blame them for stealing our jobs when people in US decide they like EV and hybrid technology.

If we have to throw tax money at auto makers, let it be put to good use with conditions and accountability.

[blue_onyx]

16. The idea that people buy large vehicles....

because GM is pushing them to is nonsense. People buy large vehicles because they want to. Just like how people love large homes, large televisions, and large food portions. Bigger is better in America.

You for some reason single out one company, as if the rest of the industry isn't doing the same things. You don't really think that if GM was gone that the oil spill wouldn't have happened? You do realize that many other industries use oil, such as companies that make plastics. Also, your state benefits greatly from the oil industry yet you only bash Detroit. This thread in nothing more than you going on an anti-GM rant.

[NNN0LHI]

10. Did it bother you when your state was throwing your money at Toyota?

And what does Toyota build down there in Texas? If I recall they build huge gas guzzling Toyota Tundras that get about 13 MPG. Big manly Toyota trucks for stuff like going to grocery store and work and soccer practice.

Am I correct?

Don


-------------------------------------------------------

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2008/vogel200808.html

Closing the Texas Deal

The TMC announcement in 2002 that the company was seeking a site for a major manufacturing plant in the southern auto plant corridor set off a round of competition in the region that Texas ultimately won. The initial incentive package offered to Toyota by city, county, and state governments surpassed $227 million.2

The Texas deal included the following:

•The City of San Antonio paid for the purchase and preparation of the 2,600 acre TMMTX site; waived the fees for the extension of water, sewer, electricity, and natural gas services to the plant; and agreed to sell electricity to the corporation for one-third of the price paid by residential customers. The city also agreed to establish a 3-mile buffer zone around the plant and "to exercise its best efforts" to annex the zone in order to protect the interests of TMMTX. The municipality also contributed several million dollars to construct a training center for TMMTX workers.

•The Southwest School District granted TMMTX a $45 million school tax abatement.

•Bexar County granted TMMTX a renewable, 10-year tax abatement worth $22 million and approved similar tax abatements to 15 TMMTX suppliers that totaled an additional $6.5 million.

•The state of Texas provided tens of millions of dollars of funding for road and rail infrastructure development to serve the plant, and millions of dollars to TMC and Alamo Community College to train workers for TMMTX.

•The Federal Government provided grants to the City of San Antonio, Alamo Community College, Bexar County, and the state of Texas to train TMMTX workers and provide transportation to and from work for them.

[scentopine]

11. Yes - you are correct., Are you playing gotcha? You are too oblique

I don't like these big public tax give-aways to Fortune 500, they are all deals with the devil. If you are saying that I am excluding Toyota from the mix, I'm not. Its GM and Ford and Dodge that are saturating the air waves right now.

We are doing the wrong thing by spending tax dollars on something so incredibly toxic as these lumbering junkers. Doesn't matter if its US and Asia. I see the truck parts from Mexico and China piled up on miles of freight cars heading to these plants every day. Huge amount is done in Mexico, China and now India no regardless of manufacturer.

Let's get back to my core proposition i.e. in the face of a massive oil spill, based a foundation of ethical, moral and common sense logic and social costs - it is outrageous to be spending tax money to prop up a tax payer owned business that push markets big oil guzzlers.

I did the best to respectfully clear up any misconception. Thanks for your reply, even though you don't agree.

[flvegan]

12. Wait...you're blaming GM, et al because people buy their trucks?

Misdirected hostility much?

Or, it could be that "nearly every commercial" reflects that nobody is buying them and they REALLY need to move inventory. In which case...yeah, we're back to misdirected hostility.

[scentopine]

14. No, they are doing what they have always have done. Push marketing

big gas guzzlers to Dallas/Houston/SA/Austin wannabe cowboys. As for inventory - the economy has been in the gutter going on three years now. There is no reason for excess inventory when the area is not in any real recovery. Only as dumb ass dealer would load up on big expensive 2011 trucks.

Admittedly, I'm giving your snark attack far too much respect, but it sounds like you are saying that dealers are ordering too many trucks because they mistakenly thought that recovery is complete and clean cheap oil is just around the corner? And having realized their mistake, they need to dump this presumed excess. And finally, once this excess is gone, they'll focus on more reasonable vehicles given and push marketing will change focus accordingly?

I wouldn't agree with that at all but I can't really say for sure that's what you mean since you did a snark and run.

Thanks for your reply.

[flvegan]

15. My snark attack?

Go take a class in economics. Get back to me.

[Codeine]

17. We bailed out GM et. al.

so we wouldn't have an even bigger economic meltdown in the country.

And nice how you call out the American companies for making gas-guzzlers and don't bother to mention that the Japanese make big trucks here too, in non-union plants to boot.

Big trucks sell. Big trucks are a profit center for all manufacturers.