Does closing the prison at Gitmo really matter?

[Stinky The Clown]

Lots of posts today about Gitmo not closing. One source is the NYT. You can find such posts all over DU.

This post asks a simple question: Does closing the prison at Guantanamo matter?

As a corollary, if you think it matters, but can understand not doing it, please tell us why.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

1. Gee, I guess what was going on in Gitmo wasn't so bad after all

Probably just those crazy America-hating liberals using it as a cheap media ploy to trash president Bush but now that Obama runs the exact same prison the exact same way it isn't so bad after all.

[EFerrari]

40. Do we have any evidence whatsoever that prisoner abuse has stopped at Giimo?

Isn't the same company of MPs working there, for example, or is that wrong?

[treestar]

2. No, there would still be a prison there

It is who goes into it and on what grounds that really matters.

closing it was symbolic to begin with. They could still leave it open, so long as they don't indefinitely detain "unlawful combatants" and have a legal ground for those they do detain.

[tekisui]

13. The Administration has claimed the right to indefinite detention.

There are those that will be held indefinitely, without charge. It really doesn't matter if they are detained in gitmo or Illinois, that they are being held is the problem.

[Dr Morbius]

3. The very notion of maintaining a prison outside one's borders bothers me.

It creates a situation where the government can choose to ignore the law, because that prison is outside the nation. I don't like it. I didn't like it when Bush was the President and I don't like it now. Since it does not appear to be the case that our government is acting inappropriately towards the prisoners there, the issue doesn't have the same urgency it did when it appeared as though our government was torturing people there. But I still consider it appropriate that the USA close down GITMO, and I still want it done.

[obxhead]

19. I would say that holding a prisoner indefinitely and not charging them

or giving them the rights they deserve is quite inappropriate. It's a form of torture in and of itself.

[JackRiddler]

71. Our government is acting "inappropriately" to the prisoners there.

Most of them continue to be held without rights or charges, for many years. Even if they were given hotel service, it would be a violation.

[dipsydoodle]

4. What's the cost of running it.

I'll bet its not nil.

Aside from that its a truly disgusting chapter in the history of the USA.

[Fire1]

5. Logical people with sensible and reasonable priorities

can easily understand why closing Gitmo is not THE most paramount right now. Of course, you're going to have the ME generation who cannot see past their own self indulgance to care about one of the core democratic values SUPPOSEDLY held by this country. THE COMMON GOOD.

[tekisui]

11. That is a pretty callous approach to people's human rights.

You are saying that politics is more important than ensuring that we correct the human rights violations we are carrying out. Human rights should be among the paramount issues we deal with. If human rights can get placed on the back burner today, it can be again tomorrow.

Now is always a good time to do the right thing.

[Fire1]

15. The "common good" can extend beyond our borders but I

certainly believe in cleaning up one's own backyard, FIRST! The "human rights" of the people of THIS COUNTRY should be THE top priority. "Our" rights have already been on the back burner and it's time it came off. Fuck gitmo!! We need JOBS!! Industry & manufacturing, help for the poor and homeless!!! Fuck gitmo!!

[saracat]

17. It is extremely unlikely that those who do not care about human rights on generally can be expected

about specific rights at home.They will not care about our "JOBS", manufactering , or homeless either. Time to take the blinders off. Unemployments has already gone down with hardly a whimper, and Medicare and Social Security are being examined for cuts.DADT is on the back burner. And Hyde was reinforced with a Presidential order.

[Fire1]

26. EXTENDED umemployment went down. Increased taxes for

these corporations sending jobs overseas, will be signed in July. With THAT, perhaps there won't be a NEED for extended unemployment benefits. Domino effect, much? No way in south hell will the boomers allow cuts in medicare and SS. BELIEVE THAT!!!

[depakid]

28. You do realize how much money this would save, right?

[saracat]

36. That is only because for many fell off the rolls. It isn't that they are now employed

Many and those that depend on them cannot hold out until July and then, IF then, improvement will be months away. Many will lose everything. My next door neighbors have. I fear I may not be far behind. As for your last argument" LOL. I also used to laugh about CHOICE being endangered till they virtually outlawed it in many states. The WH had already discussed their support of lowering benefits to Medicare and raising the age of SS recepients. That is only the first step. And sorry to say, the Boomers may not have much to say about it. Just like most of us had no say in election 2000.

[tekisui]

22. This is our backyard. This is our program and our actions.

Human rights through an us vs. them lens is a dangerous approach.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time. But, we can't walk far as long as we hold on to these asinine war on terror policies.

[Fire1]

27. Fuck that! He's got enough gum to chew without sweatin over

gitmo!!

[saracat]

37. Funny , some say the same thing about DADT, and FOCA .

Civil liberties are on the back burner too. Not important anymore. But interesting how he requested and got unlimited detention and rendition.There isn't enough "too gum to chew" to take time for those!

[backwoodsbob]

46. wow

can I play too?

He's got enough gum to chew without sweatin over DADT

He's got enough gum to chew without sweatin over gay rights

He's got enough gum to chew without sweatin over drone strikes killing civilians

He's got enough gum to chew without sweatin over the now 70 day oil gusher in the gulf

Want to keep playing that?

[Stinky The Clown]

47. Are you *fucking* kidding me?

Wow.

Words fail me.

That reply belongs on the greatest page for everyone to see.

I'm putting this thread in my journal.

That's a real keeper.

[laughingliberal]

29. I fail to see how closing Gitmo prevents us from having human rights, jobs, and industry at home.

I just don't see this as an either/or situation.

[kdmorris]

30. You do realize it's not either/or, right?

Only those who are too self-indulgent to care about the common good want Gitmo closed. Is that your position?

We, as a country, should realize that the common good is ONLY served by stopping our illegal detention of foreigners who we have never been tried and never been proven to actually be guilty of anything. It is a national disgrace and, as an American, you should be ashamed that our government not only started this abomination, but allows it to continue.

You can stand up for human rights AND create jobs. It's not either/or.

[EFerrari]

42. You'd feel differently if it was your father or brother being abused there.

Geeze, talk about the Me Generation.

[G_j]

54. that is incredibly offensive

where the hell did you come from?

[Stinky The Clown]

58. Whatever you do, PLEASE don't alert on that post

Posts like this need to stay and be read.

[G_j]

65. ++

on the same page.

[ensho]

6. yes, it would relieve some of our guilty feelings

nothing will relieve our guilt

[hughee99]

7. The prison at Guantanamo is a horrible abomination

that goes against everything we should believe in as Americans, provides "the enemy" with a recruiting tool, and harms both our foreign policy and our stature around the world... when a repuke is president... otherwise, it's no big deal. :sarcasm:

[Mithreal]

21. +1 It is that obvious.

Thank you to Stinky too.

[Oregone]

8. Campaign promises only matter insofar as they help get one elected

[Innovative]

9. Obama thinks it matters

Why does he think it matters?

[tekisui]

10. It doesn't matter in that some of the detainees will continue to be held

without charge. It doesn't matter where they are detained, but that they are detained with no access to due process.

The closing does matter, politically, though. It was one of the big campaign issues from Obama. He needs to get this done for his political strength.

[Mithreal]

20. tek, you are one of my favorite DU'ers

Damn, you put up a good fight. :applause:

Closing it would give him strength with the left but show weakness with the right. It's a symbol of oppression. It has power.

Trying to frame it in terms that both "sides" here should understand, I applaud you.

[tekisui]

23. Aw, thanks.

:toast:

[Solly Mack]

61. +1

[SunnySong]

12. It's a new and improved Gitmo...

Plus the Obama administration has taken great care not to increase the number of terrorists held at Gitmo... mostly because they now assassinate them from 6000 feet without trial.

[tekisui]

14. Without trial or interrogation. We lose much information with each

splattered brain.

[obxhead]

16. Ending a continuing crime matters quite a bit. nt

[Mithreal]

18. I'm surprised it hasn't been rebranded or privatized.

Of course, franchises are popping up elsewhere. Oh, and no one mention secret prisons or prison ships.



I rec'd but the rightwads are out in force.

[JackRiddler]

24. apparently not to you.

[Stinky The Clown]

50. What causes you to say it doesn't matter to me?

How did you come to that conclusion? You disparage me. Now man up and say why.

[JackRiddler]

56. That you would even ask the question implies Guantanamo might under some scenario be legitimate.

The Guantanamo prison is a high international crime. It puts the lie to talk of democracy, rule of law and human rights. It's not enough to close the prison. The doctrines and categories ("enemy combatant") it represents must be rolled back, the practices it employs must end wherever they are used, the victims must receive restitution, and the perpetrators who created and ran the modern torture archipelago must be removed from power and prosecuted.

[Stinky The Clown]

60. Thanks for underscoring the point of asking the question and showing those who FDO support it.

[JackRiddler]

69. Well, if that was the point, then okay. Maybe even well done.

[depakid]

25. As long as it stays open, it's a symbol of shame that hangs over the head of all Americans

Not to mention the fact that estimates are that it would save $180 million per year to shut it down.

[Mithreal]

33. +1

[kdmorris]

31. Yes it does.

I can only concur with the previous posters who discuss eloquently why closing this illegal detention center down is the only right thing to do. As Americans, we should be deeply ashamed that this is allowed to continue.

[undeterred]

32. Yes, and Bagram should be closed too.

No more torture in the name of America.

[Mithreal]

34. +1 Gitmo's evil twin

[Mithreal]

35. Guess DU decided it doesn't matter, at least looking at the recs.

Here's a kick.

[saracat]

39. Yeah well the soldiers dying in Afganistan didn't matter to many either.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mithreal]

53. I really do believe you are right. We didn't elect the Constitution, duh!

The Constitution doesn't need our support. :)

[demmiblue]

55. Even as an infrequent poster, I have noticed this.

[Mithreal]

66. Take a look up above a few pixels. Vapors.

[Stinky The Clown]

72. Yup .... tender sensibilities, tenderly offended

[Stinky The Clown]

70. Ooops. Wrong place - self delete

[unhappycamper]

38. It matters.

1. Your OP, basically a simple fucking question has collected a number of unrecs. After I recced it, it was back to zero.

My theory on unrecs: most things on Afghanistan, Iraq, or anything military will collect unrecs. Wear them as a badge of honor.

2. Who's going to continue paying for upkeep on the unused cellblocks? Who going to pay for upkeep on the ball fields and the go cart track? It's bad enough we are pissing away $200 grand a minute in the sandbox, but this is ridiculous.

[Stinky The Clown]

52. The unrecs have nothing to do with the what and everything to do with the who

Sad but true. This same shit under Bush was horrible. Now it is 7 level chess.

The emperor's clothes are not missing. They're just at the cleaners.

[alfredo]

41. As long as it adhered to US and international law, I'd have

no problem with it. As long as it is used to warehouse innocent people to hide the fact they are innocent or were subjected to torture, I'd continue my opposition.

[KonaKane]

43. As long as they dont simply move the inmates somewhere else and continue the crimes...

It certainly matters.

[backwoodsbob]

44. do campaign promises to do the right thing really matter?

[Mithreal]

67. Not when they're treated like a scorecard.

[Catherina]

45. Apparently Gitmo was only scandalous and shameful under Bush

Now it's something that must be excused, reasoned away, supported even. The shame.

[Mithreal]

48. +1

[SJC55]

49. Yes it does matter

Not closing it just further acknowledges that we do not care about human rights.

[Dover]

57. We'll be needing to use if for all the white collar criminals.

At least their crimes are identifiable.

[Puregonzo1188]

59. If by doesn't matter you mean that closing Gitmo is an empty symbolic gesture

if we maintain and expand Bagram and continue the policies of indefinite detention, rendition, etc. than I'd say you're probably right.

If you mean it doesn't matter because the policies its come to symbolize don't matter I'd say you're way off the mark.

[mkultra]

62. it does matter but i understand

congressional democrats have obstructed this process, Obama has stayed firm.

[Iggo]

63. My country openly tortured people there.

Plus, he kinda promised.

So yeah, it does matter.

[Warren Stupidity]

64. It was a campaign promise.

But it really wasn't about the prison there, it was about torture, due process, rule of law, the geneva conventions - the whole despicable bundle of war crimes committed in our name by the Bush regime. Closing gitmo was a symbolic gesture, and even that gesture was rendered pointless when it became clear that this administration was not going to prosecute or even renounce or even stop the policies of the neocon regime before them. Not closing gitmo closes the book on change for this administration with respect to the GWOT nonsense.

[KonaKane]

68. He signed an exec order to close it two days after his innauguration.

What's happened since is the same old story - GOP congress standing in his way of actually getting it done. I would be chewing their asses with at least have the verve this place is going after Obama on the issue.

[hughee99]

73. Damn straight, if it weren't for the GOP,

we'd be doing the same thing to the same prisoners in some other location, but the camp at Guantanamo would be closed, so everything would be okay.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. Then I guess it wasn't important enough to fight for.

As the torture center remains open, victims remain held there without trial charges due process etc. If this were important to this administration, then at a minimum all of the victims would be somewhere else, like in a real prison inside our territory where this bullshit about their not having rights would have to show its face in court.

[kdmorris]

76. The GOP isn't in control of congress...

Maybe you weren't aware of that?

[spanone]

75. yes. we need to slam the door on the torture era.