"Feel free to repost without the broad brush group attack." To honor that invitation by the mod,

[elocs]

here it is: (I'm assuming that invitation was made in earnest)

Vegetarianism: I'm frequently disappointed by the attitude of so many
toward those who make that choice. The sarcasm, snideness, and snarkiness that so many have toward vegetarianism, along with a very defensive attitude.

There are certainly vegetarians and vegans who have a superior attitude about their dietary choices, but it really does not seem to reach the level of nastiness that so many meat eaters here display toward those who choose to be vegetarian.

I don't read of the meat eaters arguing that a good vegetarian diet is less healthy than your typical American meat eating diet. They can't, but at least I could respect that attitude.

For those who choose vegetarianism for moral and ethical reasons because
they don't believe in killing living creatures to provide them with food, or they object to the factory farms where the animals survive horrible lives until they are released by slaughter--I don't read of the meat eaters here refuting that notion, that somehow this mistreatment and torture on animals for food is a good and noble idea so long as it provides them with cheap meat. Yet they will weep profuse crocodile tears over oil covered birds or the deaths of dolphins or whales.

There are those who support a vegetarian lifestyle who argue that raising animals for food is not good for the Earth and it's people, that meat eating wastes the world's resources and keeps billions of people starving, but I don't read the meat eaters here disputing that and putting forth their own argument that meat eating is good and that all of the world's people should eat a meat diet, making the world a better place. I guess what's important is that Americans be allowed to continue to consume twice the amount of meat compared to the rest of the world, and if animals have to suffer and die for that, well, too bad, so sad.

I guess that I have always expected people to be more empathetic, understanding, and accepting of those who choose a vegetarian lifestyle for health reasons, for ethical reasons in caring for animals, or for better stewardship of the Earth's resources and helping to feed the world. It's just disappointing to read these attacks on vegetarianism.

Sad. Just sad.

[leftstreet]

1. How many vegetarians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

I don't know, but where do you get your protein!?

:-)

[DailyGrind51]

33. Legumes, have a handful of peanuts or a can of Boston baked beans!

[LostinVA]

45. Quinoa, lentils, dairy, tempeh, seitan

Lots of complete proteins.

[JerseygirlCT]

57. What does quinoa taste like?

I've never had it, and am curious.

[LostinVA]

63. You can make it savory or as a hot cereal

I really like it as the lastter, with nuts and berries in it.

Kind of nutty. It reminds me of cous-cous, but I like it better. Very high protein, and it is a COMPLETE protein. Whoel Foods sells it in bulk, or you can get boxes of it at TJ's, etc. It's decently cheap.

[JerseygirlCT]

66. Shall have to try

Not a veggie, though I don't like or eat red meat, and we have chicken or fish a couple of times a week.

Something to break our pasta addiction might be good, though!

[LostinVA]

67. That's actually perfect

Because it has a starchy "mouth feel," but is REALLY high in protein and not carby like pasta.

I'm not a huge rice person, but love pasta, and I LOVE quinoa.

[nemo137]

88. I'm totally fine with vegetarianism, but please don't make me eat quinoa.

It's like watery rice. Oats, rice, millet even - I'll eat and enjoy. But, please, not quinoa.

Just my two cents. I know many people like it, but I just can't do it.

[LostinVA]

93. It doesn't taste ANYTHING like watery rice

If it did, I wouldn't eat it. It's like cous cous in texture and "fluffiness."

[mzteris]

113. Depends on how you cook it!

I didn't like it at first either until I had some that was made well. yum!

[nemo137]

122. My parents served it to us all the time when I was younger.

It is to me what brussels sprouts (which I love) were to other people. That one inedible thing we had all the damn time.

So, maybe I am missing out.

[Warren DeMontague]

127. Oh, man. It's so good.

Yum. A little chicken broth in there, yum yum.

[niceypoo]

119. Salad is murder

Kill and eat vegans

[Liberal_in_LA]

128. some veggies like spinach have a lot of protein

[Liberal_in_LA]

129. it takes one vegetarian to screw in a light bulb. n/t

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DevonRex]

10. I didn't see the original. Maybe I should read it.

I guess I just don't understand folks arguing over it one way or another. Seems to me to be a personal choice.

[a la izquierda]

16. Exactly...

I'm a vegetarian. I could care less what other people eat.

[blondeatlast]

21. I'm not, but exactly (my guy is, too). nt

[burnsei sensei]

3. With food prices as they are now,

who can afford to eat meat?
Ethics and stewardship of the earth are nice reasons for vegetarianism, health works also, but the fact of the matter is that meat is just too expensive any more.
It always was.

[treestar]

4. I am totally understanding and even approve

[KonaKane]

5. What's better - being held hostage by terrorists or vegans?

Terrorists. At least you can negotiate with them.

WAKA WAKA WAKA WAKA WAKA

[uppityperson]

6. "the level of nastiness"? This level? Thanks for removing "average freeper climate change denier"

"Yet they will weep profuse crocodile tears "

"I don't read of the meat eaters arguing that a good vegetarian diet is less healthy than your typical American meat eating diet. They can't"

"meat eating wastes the world's resources and keeps billions of people starving"

"I have always expected people to be more empathetic, understanding, and accepting" (removed "those who are Democrats or Liberals")

"Sad. Just sad."

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DevonRex]

7. I don't usually post on threads about this subject because I figure

it's a personal choice. And a lot of times it's a choice I wish I could make for myself for many of the reasons you mentioned. I absolutely love animals. If I actually had to kill an animal in order to get meat to eat I couldn't do it, unless I were starving and there were no other food available.

I guess I'm saying that I understand your points even though I'm not a vegetarian. Yet.

[dionysus]

69. when you hunt from the yacht with a cruise missle... there's no guilty conscience!!

i hear that's how you british aristocrats do things...


:hide:

:D

[DevonRex]

98. LOL!!!

Did you know that the Queen actually likes to hunt? Tromping around the Highlands with a rifle, no less. Of course, when HRH asks, one has to go, but really, it's just SO inconvenient.

:evilgrin:

[Dr Morbius]

8. I was unaware that as a meat-eater I was being unfair to vegans.

Can you cite some examples, please?

[RKP5637]

9. I've always thought a vegetarian diet was pretty cool. Years ago I worked

at a hospital wherein vegetarian food was available in the employee cafeteria. The food was excellent and the soy based imitation meat products were superb. You can count me as one that is very supportive of vegetarians!
:yourock: :yourock: :yourock:

[AtomicKitten]

11. It's an individual choice and should be respected as such.

My journey toward vegetarianism began with reports of cows bolting from slaughterhouses and the gawdawful conditions of factory farming.

[Swamp Rat]

12. No offense, but we are wasting our time arguing over what offends us lately,

I commend your ethical reasons for becoming vegetarian, and support your efforts to inform others of your choice. I was vegetarian for many years but I became anemic (I do not eat red meat much, and am very careful about it when I do).

However, eating meat, whether good or band, ethical or not, is WAY down the list of eminent threats to life on Earth at this time.

This reply is directed at everybody, no matter what the topic (I did not want to start a thread just to say this).

[KonaKane]

13. Agree. Diet ideology is way down the list of immediate concerns.

That picture hurt.

[Swamp Rat]

14. Our diet is about to be severely limited

I cannot grow a vegetable garden because the soil in New Orleans is polluted with lead, mercury, and asbestos. Some people are doing it, but I won't even touch their vegetables. So sad. :(

[KonaKane]

29. What a travesty. BP needs to be subsidizing those communities for the foreseeable future

that is after they get their asses nailed to the wall for this.

[mzteris]

41. have you looked at

container farming? Using bagged dirt and a container? Window box, etc....

Or hydroponic, provided you cam get a good water source. I posted something either in the frugal living or environmental thread about "window farming" - it sounded really cool. I'll go look for the link.

[Swamp Rat]

53. Great suggestion, but I have a very old house with small windows, with large shade trees outside

I would not put any large windows in this house because of hurricanes/high winds (one large oak branch took out 16 feet of our roof during Katrina, for example). Our water is somewhat poisoned too, but probably still usable. I, at least, shower in it now, but for months after Katrina, brown water came out of the tap, permanently staining our sinks and toilets (yuck!). It still does, but if you let it run for a few minutes it mostly clears up.

I would love to garden in my back yard, but I'd have to replace a LOT of top soil, at such a depth to make it way too expensive. Plus, it rains so heavy and often floods here (up to a foot or two in a normal flash flood every couple of weeks) it would wash away. Folks are doing this, but I've been told it's a full-time job just to maintain... I'll probably investigate it more in the future. I'd like to try the hydroponic thing, but I am afraid of being targeted by the police, who I try VERY hard to avoid under ANY circumstance.

Thanks for the suggestions... I'll go back to your link now because it looks very interesting. I know a few people with large windows in newer houses in the suburbs.

[mzteris]

65. if you put the good soil in a window box

or other container that might work.

many many - er - many - years ago, 1st hubby and I planted tomatoes in window boxes on our patio. We had them coming out the ears! gave away so many to any and every one. Since then, he's had success with peppers and even beans growing in "window boxes" - though they were actually sitting on the patio.

"raised gardens" in the yard also incorporate "good soil" see: http://eartheasy.com/grow_raised_beds.htm

I've talked to people who "garden in old tires" http://www.sustainlane.com/reviews/how-to-build-a-used-tire-raised-garden-tree-ring/CSMLYIPOV8VO3A2IWFZ2ICAMHNY2

or even in haybales.= http://thegardenersrake.com/hay-bale-gardeneing-techniques -

though some say NO NO not HAY, but STRAW: http://www.beginner-gardening.com/straw-bale-gardening.html

point is, there are a lot of alternative where you can use "good dirt" and still plant some veggies and herbs and some fruits, too.

[mzteris]

44. here's the link to "windowfarms"

I was talking about.

http://www.windowfarms.org/

sounds pretty cool.

[blondeatlast]

25. Amen, brother. nt

[Blue_In_AK]

123. You are correct, as usual, Swampy

[elocs]

15. There is nothing inherently bad or evil about vegetarianism

despite some of the posts about it that are defensive and way over the top for what is essentially a good and thoughtful dietary choice that people do not make casually and they are trying to do it for the right reasons, no matter whether they be for health, the moral and ethical treatment of animals, the best use of the Earth's resources, or all of those things.

[scheming daemons]

26. Fine... so why the need to proselytize?

We aren't starting OPs about this.... YOU are.

[elocs]

39. Why does anyone here share things that are good or helpful to them?

It happens all the time. Proselytizing? I was in no way trying to induce anyone to vegetarianism who does not want to try it, simply pointing out the hostile attitude that so many surprisingly seem to have to it.

Feel free to post a thread about all the benefits of eating meat. I would find that to be an interesting read.

[Touchdown]

40. I'm sorry you think it's just sharing. It's not.

It's evangelism, it's browbeating, it's smugness, it's holier than thou, and it's the same "sharing" of your obvious disdain for anyone who doesn't follow your orders... on a weekly basis, with no new arguments to warrant that weekly stick poking.

It's not about the benefits of any diet. It's always about the attitude of a few overtly vocal vegans/vegetarians that they know better, and everyone else is helping destroy the planet and should be shot between the eyes and used for compost in their wheat germ fields.

And face it. We both know you have NO interest in reading anything about the benefits of eating meat, so you might want to can that too.

[elocs]

42. Sorry, you're wrong. (That has happened before, hasn't it?)

I was actually inspired to write it after reading this thread posted by kpete earlier today about "Vegetarians Are Happier Than Meat-Eaters" (was she proselytizing?):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8634418

Actually I would like to read a thread about the benefits of meat eating, especially compared to vegetarianism, because I would be interested how such a feat could be pulled off.

Oh, and I don't like things canned. I prefer either fresh or frozen. :rofl:

[Touchdown]

71. Your response just proved me right

... But thank you for the example.:hi:

[mzteris]

47. it really is just "sharing"

the fAct that you feel "browbeat" and the you perceive the other person to think they're "better than you", imho - highlights some of your own misgivings about your choices and the choices of others.

[Touchdown]

70. And I suppose that your smarmy response is my "perception" too?

:eyes:

[mzteris]

76. smarmy?

:rofl:

it's my perception that your perception to my post just illustrates my interpretation of your "perception".

If the shoe fits, hon . . .

[Touchdown]

81. The shoe doesn't fit, and...

Your patronizing use in calling me "Hon" just raised your smarm level.

[mzteris]

96. The shoe was custom made, sugar...

I'm old and I was raised in the south. So shoot me.

[Touchdown]

100. Neither is an excuse.

... Granny.

[mzteris]

105. not a granny - yet.

Look sonny, :P you really need to just - lighten up.

You're way too stressed out about this. Seriously, if you're that upset about the whole topic there must be some underlying "issue". :shrug:

[Touchdown]

107. No I'm not stressed. I just get pissed off when I'm told my opinion doesn't matter...

especially by people who claim that their arrogance, dismissiveness, and condescension is some bullshit southern charm.

And that is normal human behavior. Bar brawls and homicide cases allow rage at paternalism as a motivating factor.

What is not normal is you comparing the eating of a chicken breast with lead paint poisoning. That is insane, and you need to seek help... before your ego disses the wrong bi-polar sufferer.

[mzteris]

117. wow - you really are upset aren't you?

Simmer down. It really is bad for you you know. Ooops - there I go trying to make people feel better again.

I'm very sorry you saw my use of the word "hon" as "bullshit southern charm" - really it does just slip out you know. I was trying to be nice and trying to tone down the rhetoric and then you called me granny so I thought you were playing so I played back. I'm sorry if that offended you or if my choice of words offended you.

I'm not sure I'm following your second sentence.

As for the third - well, the hormones and chemicals you find in most commercially produced chicken is, in my opinion - and it doesn't have to be your opinion - as harmful as eating lead paint.

As for your very last bit, if you're referring to yourself, I am so very sorry if I have contributed to any suffering on your part. At the risk of upsetting you further, I would like to quietly add that diet can have a huge influence on brain chemistry - and no - one does NOT have to be a vegetarian.

I'll let you in on a little secret - my new acupuncturist/chinese medicine/nutritionist is pressuring me heavily to eat a little "meat protein". I won't as yet, but I am reading the book she has suggested to see what it has to say. I'm there because my brain/body chemistry is seriously whacked from the pituitary tumor I had removed.

My younger son, who has some weight issues - we were getting a LOT of pressure from his doc and nutritionist to "add some meat or at least fish" into his diet. I requested a NEW doctor - not because of the meat thing, but because they quit looking for the underlying cause of his weight gain. (Yes, he eats VERY healthily and is EXTREMELY active!! but they were just shrugging and going 'oh well' genetics. . . ) Anyway she, the new doctor, - thankfully it turns out - and her children are vegetarian so she completely understands that my son is completely morally opposed to eating animals of any kind.

Her first thought was insulin resistance (he's adopted African American). WTH didn't the other "EXPERT" mention that? We are undergoing a new round of blood work - and currently he and I are on a wheat/gluten/dairy/soy free diet to see if that is having any affect. I'm also getting a book on glycemic index foods.

Talking about having to be a food chemist! I read so many labels when I go to the store. It takes me forever to grocery shop!!!

IF we find that our health is seriously impaired by the lack of meat (which I doubt but am willing to pursue the research) - then we'll have to sit down and really do some soul searching. For myself, when it comes to my kid - he and his health come first. I will do what I have to do and that will be that.

I am a late vegetarian. I became one because of my older son's moral convictions. I grew up hunting and fishing and helping my uncle around the farm for goodness sake!! I agree and don't agree and sort of agree with the different aspects of vegetarianism. It's hard for me sometimes - I remember what a steak and mama's fried chicken tasted like! I could go own about my thoughts on it, but I decided you might think I was proselytizing when nothing could be further from the truth.

I guess I just want you to know that there are many reasons people choose to be vegetarian/vegan. . . and sometimes it's not so clear cut, ya know? Another bit of info, for me and my older son, being OCD has really helped us BE vegetarian. lol...

[Touchdown]

118. Thank you.

I'm over it now. Thanks for your story and clarification. :hug:

[KonaKane]

125. Just don't get him going on religion.

It will make his views on this look tame.

[Touchdown]

131. What can I say?

I have a problem with people who try to tell me what to do and how to live my life.

In some parts of the world and history, rebellion and Independence are laudable. Too bad I don't live in one here or now, or frequent a website that discourages those who claim to have all the answers from getting under my skin.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishwax]

60. nah, most of the time it's just sharing n/t

[Luminous Animal]

74. Post the benefits of eating meat.

Illustrate how the meat industry is beneficial to animals, plants, and humans.

[Touchdown]

82. We don't have to pretend it's something else.

We don't need tofurkey. We have the real thing
We don't need Boca Burgers
We don't bother with soysage.
Vegetarian hot dogs? Nope!
Meatless balls... Make me laugh.
What's next? Roast rack of sham?

If you have to make up sham meat products to prove your dietary supremacy, and prove to the rest of us that eating meat is disgusting, then few are going to take your evangelism seriously.

[Luminous Animal]

84. Buddhists are the kings of sham meat.

They didn't perfect it to replicate "benefits" (which you failed to name) but for the flavor. Similarly, many Americans consume no fat products in order to avoid the fat but replicate the flavor.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Touchdown]

109. I don't care who the kings of shinola are. It's still fake food.

Replicating flavor is not flavor. By eating fake meat, you are in fact, faking it.

And... I'm not your monkey! I don't take orders from you, so stop bossing me around and telling me to post anything.

[KonaKane]

73. You're not sharing. You are a proselyting. There is a difference.

[mzteris]

43. several reasons:

if you're a vegetarian/vegan because you feel

1. killing and eating other living beings is WRONG, then you'd like other people not to kill them.

2. the treatment of animals on factory farms is morally wrong, then you'd like other people to know this fact and just maybe, feel the same way.

3. factory meat items contains harmful antibiotics and hormones, you'd like to make sure other people know this and act to protect themselves.

4. eating meat is unhealthy, you want to educate others that what they've always done as a matter of course, may not be the best thing for them healthwise.

5. the environment is negatively affected by the production and transportation of meat animals and their products, then you want to educate others that limiting or eliminating meat products is good for saving water, land, and limiting pollution.

6. any combination of the above.

7. all of the above.

[KonaKane]

92. I can insert a fundamentalist religious word into every point on that list

and guarantee that it would be shot down in flames here.

Wow, you should really think about that stuff before you post.

[mzteris]

95. well, by all means let's stop educating people to any dangers

'cause you could insert a fundamentalist religious word into every point.

Eat lead.
Don't wash your hands.
Don't brush your teeth.
Drink AND drive.
Don't wear your seatbelt.
Babies can drink soda, it's good for them, really!
Don't vaccinate, we need to weed out the herd.
Eat raw PORK!


:eyes:

[KonaKane]

108. How about we stop preaching to people about their choice of diet.

That would be a good place to start.

[mzteris]

111. I'm sorry if it sounds preachy -

I think of it as sharing good news.

Just like all of the other good stuff I try and post about, you know? Things like "windowfarming" or a funny video, or a great idea, .... when people are happy they like to share the things that make them happy.

[KonaKane]

114. Sharing is great. But when it gets labored and incessant, it becomes brow beating

And then it becomes preaching. I don't know of anyone who is swayed that way.

[Arkana]

50. No one sane is saying there is.

But vegetarians will argue until they're blue in the face that omnivores are filthy, filthy murderers.

[apocalypsehow]

17. You ask for respect for your eating choices, and then cleverly insert your vitriol for those who

don't share your diet by inserting into the mouths of some unnamed supporters of the "vegetarian lifestyle" who put the following moral indictment on meat eaters: "who argue that raising animals for food is not good for the Earth and it's people, that meat eating wastes the world's resources and keeps billions of people starving, but I don't read the meat eaters here disputing that and putting forth their own argument that meat eating is good and that all of the world's people should eat a meat diet, making the world a better place." That voice is actually your own, and you well know it.

Right there is why I do not respect the arguments of most vocal vegetarians: they can't just say "I think going vegan is better for me," they also routinely go over on the attack and accuse omnivores of the most base kind of immorality, i.e., "that somehow this mistreatment and torture on animals for food is a good and noble idea so long as it provides them with cheap meat....not good for the Earth and it's people....wastes world's resources and keeps billions (!) of people starving..."

And you expect empathy, understanding, and acceptance of those you blithely accuse of starving billions of people to death for their "selfish" desire to consume hamburgers? :shrug:

It's the insufferable moral smugness of so many vegans that causes such a push-back here and elsewhere when they commence to preening about what superior human beings they are to the grubby, meat-eating rabble that are the rest of us. I find it laughable that so many vegans like to pretend that they're the put upon party in so many of these debates.

[mzteris]

49. yeah, cause "push back" is such a good reason for

chosing to do anything.

:eyes:

[Luminous Animal]

59. But these are statements based on fact:

1) "not good for the Earth"
2) "and it's people...."
3) "wastes world's resources and
4) "keeps billions (!) of people starving..."

I am reminded of the propaganda against banning lead that went on for decades. Ordinary people rejected the science around that, too.

What saddens me is how many people are willing to use snark to avoid the human, animal, and environmental cost of a meat based diet.

I once pointed out that the FDA recommends 5-6 oz day of meat AND beans (the old FDA pyramid recommended 3-4 oz of meat and the rest beans per day - now they combine them). Keep in mind that this is from the FDA... not run by radicals by a long shot. How many people do you imagine restrict themselves to the equivalent of one quarter pounder a day?

[apocalypsehow]

79. They are not based on any set of facts other than the talking points at vegan websites. And the

comparison to lead paint is simply one that lends itself to hyperbole of the rankest sort.

Kids and lead paint....oh, brother...I've seen every absurdity under the sun when it comes this dietary fad and it's supporters talking points now....:eyes:

[Luminous Animal]

61. Why would you characterize it as smug?

If I, in prior to 1978, offered you scientific and observable information that lead in paint is detrimental to kids' cognitive development and to any human's health in general, would you have characterized me as smug?

Nearly every diet based opinion that is posted here is met with derision, whether it be about HFCS, transfat, organics, or meat. It is "Leggo my Eggo" on a broad canvas and any OP that broaches the subject of diet is buried under snark.

Vegetarians cannot just say, "I think going vegetarian is better for me." Because it is not just better for the individual vegetarian. It has far reaching impact similar to banning lead. (Point of information, I do not advocate for banning meat eating.)

I have thought many times of trying to start a serious conversation about food but I knew, under no circumstances, would it be taken seriously.

[apocalypsehow]

78. People who argue that eating a steak is just like forcing kids to eat lead paint have lost all,

and I mean all, perspective on their dietary fad, IMO - and that's precisely what vegetarianism is: a fad, no more, no less.

* It is not the world's salvation.
* It is not a more moral lifestyle choice than eating meat.
* It does not do one thing to ease the hunger pains of the starving masses around the world.
* It has not one increased health benefit that meat-eaters cannot themselves obtain by simply using moderation in their diets and exercising, particularly when it comes to the consumption of red meat.

Now, you are free to indulge in your fad all you wish. What you are not free to do is to browbeat others who do not share your fad with outrageous rhetoric as you indulged in above, at least not without being called on it.

[Touchdown]

83. Bravo +1

:applause:

[TexasObserver]

18. Yes, I can see how this is different. There were a couple of new words.

I think obsessing over what others eat is unhealthy for those who do it.

I think excessive fiber in a diet contributes to dangerous methane emissions, too.

[shockra]

19. It can be nearly impossible to reverse childhood training.

I got some insight into this a year or two ago from a NYT article by Jonathan Safran Foer ("Eating Animals"). He started out the article with the comment that the children's book section is full of stories with animal heroes. Animals with intelligence, personality and feelings. So how come the cookbook section is full of recipes with animals?

When you're a small child growing up with stories where you identify with animals, there must be an enormous amount of cognitive dissonance when you realize that your parents are feeding you some of these same animals on a daily basis. Being a child there's not much you can do about it. You're too dependent on your parents. You can protest, which may work temporarily, but you're more likely to be shamed as being "silly." That it's really not that important. As a child you would already feel complicit since you had in fact been eating animals for awhile.

Having read a lot of books about childhood by Alice Miller, this struck me as another way that childhood is oppressive. Adults passing on their norms no matter how thoughtless. You can change your habits when you're older, but that process of having to cave in to the adults never completely leaves your mind.

[Hissyspit]

20. Oops. Just accidentally unrec'd, sorry.

Sincerely did not mean to. I have a bad habit of randomly tapping my mouse clicker on the page while I'm reading.

[gleaner]

22. I didn't see your original post ...

I think what you eat is your own business. If you want to discuss it, that is fine. I'm not a vegetarian but that doesn't make me any better or worse than people who are.

Just be sure to get enough information so that you get your vitamin supplements and can balance your diet out for your optimum health and welfare. A lot of people who are vegetarians don't do this at the beginning, so I'm not trying to be patronizing. I have Diabetes and I'm kind of paranoid about what I eat. I have to count everything, calories, carbs, proteins, fats (like avocado) and so on.

Let me give you one stater dish. Very tasty. Take Portabellini mushroom slices and mix together Balsamic vinegar and a small amount of vegetable oil. Add minced garlic and herbs to your taste and salt if you use it. Mix the liquid ingredients, spices and garlic in a shallow dish and immerse mushroom slices. Let it sit for 30 minutes or so and then saute until tender in a skillet. Very tasty. It can be a whole serving for a meal or used for appetizers. Bon Appetit. (Hope it is spelled right.)

[OregonBlue]

23. Please folks. We are now arguing about vegan vs. carnivores? This used to be a good political site

but we have been reduced to middle-school name calling. All the trolls out there must be having a really good time watching DU implode.

[scheming daemons]

24. How come we never see vegetarian/vegan threads started by meat eaters?

We don't bring our personal life choices to a political message board.... it is the vegetarians who start ALL these threads.

So yes... sometimes the meat eaters get snarky..... but it is never in an OP.


We leave your personal life choices alone.... leave ours alone.

[KonaKane]

34. Because we don't turn our diet habits into a crusade

and beat people over the head with it.

[fishbulb703]

103. +100 Why do veggies feel so persecuted here?

I have a very good friend who is vegetarian, and she does make it a crusade. Thankfully we all have good humor about it, she rags on me for eating meat, I tell her I am going to eat enough meat to make up for her vegetarianism, lol.

[Silent3]

121. I'm not a vegetarian, but I do think vegetarians have many good points...

...to argue for their choice, and while they way some of them do it is annoying and holier-than-thou, that they "preach" what they believe, in and of itself, doesn't bother me at all.

For me, what people say, what people stand for, the substance of their arguments, whether what they say makes sense, is far more important, on an issue-by-issue basis, than how or when they tell other people about, so long as the "how" is just talking, not forcing. I've never understood the point of view that merely trying to persuade people to your own point of view, in and of itself, is a bad thing.

[Common Sense Party]

102. Same reason you don't see many religion threads started by believers.

There are hundreds of anti-religion threads about how BAD religion (read: Christianity) is for you. But no self-respecting Christian would start a pro-religion thread because they'd get swarmed by a haughty horde of smarter-than-thou atheists who assert their intellectual and moral superiority over the myth-believers.

[KonaKane]

110. +1000

[Touchdown]

112. -1001. Not the right place to bleed your sacred heart.

Feel sorry for yourself in a more appropriate thread.

[KonaKane]

115. Right on time, the anti-religion killjoy.

Golly gee we missed you.

[Touchdown]

116. I've been here all along

And on your side with this issue. So there's something we got! :toast:

[K8-EEE]

27. I TOTALLY agree -- I'm always shocked at the hostility

It really shocks me to see the hostility towards people who are so mindful of what is on their plate, when as a nation we have major problems resulting from the poor quality and our food, and just in general mindless eating -- and doesn't everyone know by now the filthy, inhumane conditions of the average "factory farm?"

One thing that really annoys me is the eye-rolling snark lines such as"oh the poor vegetables you killed them!" "I Love Animals, Right Next To The Potatoes" etc.....people...COME ON. I can't believe people on a supposedly liberal site would be all Sarah Palin about discussing alternative food choices.

I'm not a vegan due to my general lack of discipline but I've seen enough people including those in my immediate family turn their life/health on a vegan diet, it inspires me to eat vegan meals more often than not. So, even if I end up having ice cream after my vegan dinner (FAIL!!) props to the plant eaters! They have been a great, positive influence on my life and health.

As for people who are happy and healthy meat eaters, fine. But as a nation we are not very healthy. And some people can benefit from eating more plant foods. So please try to have an open mind about information about different ways of eating, it could help someone else even if you aren't interested.

[blondeatlast]

28. Are we really raking the admins, mods, and members over "my food is better than your food?" REALLY?

:wow:

[KonaKane]

30. Incredible, isnt it.

[Vampire Knight]

31. Expect it

whenever you take a stand based on any kind of morals or ethics. One thing that people cannot stand is someone who makes them feel bad about not trying harder to be a better person. Your lifestyle challenges them. And people often don't like to be challenged when they're comfortable. They'd much rather either dismiss you by ridicule or assure themselves that you are a hypocrite. People don't like to think that:

*eating sentient life forms may be wrong
*their lifestyle may be destroying the environment
*their lifestyle may be contributing to the oppression of workers either here or in other countries
*there may be a deity or deities to whom one has to eternally answer
*getting rid of a pregnancy may be murder
*our economic choices may be dooming our children to an unprecedented economic disaster
*our efforts to protect the lives of Americans may be destroying the lives of people in the rest of the world

or anything like that. It is easier to deny and dismiss. And if they can't escape constantly having to see you following your own conscience, that's when they turn ugly on you. You're a nail that's sticking up. They have to remove the source of cognitive dissonance.

[blondeatlast]

32. Yeah, because my lover and I can't have a decent meal together anymore.

It's all "sentient life forms this" and "getting rid of a pregnancy might be murder" that.

I've never criticized a vegetarian or vegan for their choices--in fact, I applaud them. I was married to one and now am dating another and we do just fine--and every once in a great while, when he's not with me, I indulge in a nice, juicy, farm raised steak or a butter-drowned lobster. (Maybe 3-4 times a year I eat a creature that once breathed; well, besides my guy, that is.

Oddly enough, he likes guns and I think they are immoral, too. I guess we're doomed.

Only, wait--we do just fine--because we don't get all superior to each other, ever. Get over yourself just a little, m'kay?

Welcome to DU.

[Vampire Knight]

38. Ooh. Touchy.

I would say something about guilty canines, but it seems to be self-evident by now. Don't personalize the argument. Don't you think that it might possibly apply to some people?

[Arkana]

48. Wow, the smug, self-righteousness is just oozing from this post.

[Vampire Knight]

130. Mmmmhmmm...rail.

You're only proving my point.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. It's not the same for a simple reason.

I'm not personally offended by what you a hypothetical vegan eats, nor do I consider it morally indefensible.

And I don't speak of vegans food choices in terms like "be allowed".

Eat whatever the heck you want. I've learned not to expect reciprocity.

[flvegan]

36. I repeat myself: I find it funny

Someone posts that they've adopted a vegetarian diet, and there are a number of responses that qualify as...dumb, defensive or just plain, I don't know...angry.

On that same day, someone could post that they traded their Escalade for a vegetable oil burning converted Mercedes diesel and it would not only be the most highly rec'd thread on the board, but there would be nothing but kudos and high fives. Both changes for many the same reasons. One lauded, one hated. It's funny. It's just part of DU.

In the same breath, I'd like to add that one thing I appreciate about DU is that I can have a knock-down drag out with another poster about veganism or PETA or pit bulls or what have you, and rarely does

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. Traded the Escalade for a biodiesel? Great.

Tell the rest of us what we shouldn't "be allowed"? Not so great.

[flvegan]

52. Point missed? Check.

Thanks for playing.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flvegan]

56. Wait...did you actually read my fucking post, or did you just choose me?

And what the fuck does that quote have to do with me? And your broad brush attack on vegans is duly noted.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. Jesus, I hate being required to write cliff notes

OP: people who eat meat suck, not just because they are icky people who are destroying the world, but mostly because one of them said something mean to me.
You: Yeah! And I think it's funny how when someone goes vegan, DU'ers don't fall all over themselves with praise for the poster's good deed.
Me: He's not being criticized for his good deed, but for his sanctimony.
You: Huh? You confuse me so you suck in a vaguely-articulated-rule-breaking kind of way.

Dude, it's only three posts. Surely you can follow a thread that long.

[flvegan]

87. So then, nothing.

Brilliant. thanks.

[Luminous Animal]

68. If I wrote the OP, I would have left that out.

Though, I do consider the quality of life that the vast majority of slaughter animals have to suffer, I'd focus more on environmental degradation. Particularly now with the sudden man made disaster on our radar. The destruction of earth sustaining ecosystems are being destroyed to feed the world's (propagandized) demand for meat. It is a man made disaster in some parts of the world on a scale comparable to what is happening in the Gulf.

[Arkana]

46. You complain about ad hominem attacks, and yet your post is full of them.

I eat meat, plain and simple. I don't care if you do or do not eat meat also. Can we not just fucking leave each other alone and not care about one another's dietary choices?

IMO, the hostility from us omnivores usually comes from that one militant, asshole vegan everyone knows who will not stop screaming bloody murder about how people who eat meat are murderers. I'm not saying all vegans are like this, but the ones who are are annoying enough to color our opinions of them.

[mzteris]

62. actuallly omnivore hostility can result

from a simple "I'm a vegetarian" posting and nothing preachy or proselytizing or accusatory or anything - just a simple statement - and hostility ensues. In spades. The vegan doesn't even have to be an asshole to solicit hostile responses.

One wonders why that is.

It has been my perception that the vast majority of vegetarian/vegan postings on DU are very far removed from assholery. Yet the defensive hostile attacks follow nevertheless. And again, I ask, why is that?

[Touchdown]

85. I call bullshit! I've never seen that on DU

... Including the "See? I told you so!" thread about vegetarians being happier. Sanctimony wrapped in a dubious "study" is still sanctimony.

[mzteris]

97. you can "call" all you want, the truth is that overt blatant

in-your-face-hostility oozes out of DU whenever the subject of vegetarianism or veganism crops up. Ask any mod.

[Touchdown]

99. Truth is relative.

I find the OP hostile, the referenced thread smug and preachy, and both disingenuous.

That's the truth.

[rzemanfl]

51. All I can think of is the punch line of a crude joke: "Very few

people eat parsley."

[USArmyParatrooper]

58. My Ex Girlfriend from years ago was a Vegan

I used to joke with her family (with her right there) that when we go out to eat I just take her to a grass field and let her graze. She took it the way I meant it, in goodhearted fun. We actually used to frequent a vegan restaurant in San Fran called Millennium.

But I can see how over the internet mocking can be taken in offense.

[Luminous Animal]

72. It's not so much the mocking, it is the pile on and the resistance

to having a civil conversation.

As soon as one identifies as vegan or vegetarian one is painted as a smug "holier than thou" nag.

If DU was possible in the 50s, I've no doubt that any person posting about the negative affects of lead would be bombarded with responses such as:

"I'll paint my house with any damn paint that I want to."

"Who are you to tell me what I can paint my house with."

"Hmmmmm, lead paint! I let my baby chew it off his crib."

"I don't use lead paint but I don't presume to tell other people what kind of paint to use."

[USArmyParatrooper]

75. I seldom read the Vegetarian/Vegan threads so I wouldln't know

People should certainly respect your choice of your own diet, and your diet certainly has merit. I personally just don't know if I have the willpower to stick to it. Perhaps I should try it for a week and see if I experience a noticeable difference in health or mood.

[mzteris]

77. it actuallly takes more than a week. . .

especially as meat stays in the gut for quite some time...

To notice a "change" in your behaviour/health from a diet change, I've read anywhere from 4 to 10 weeks to see a real difference.

[mkultra]

80. for some, vegetarianism is their fundamental christianity

They are bound and determined to save our souls. maybe you are feeling the same pinch that the evangelicals feel.

[Lucian]

89. I agree.

It gets really annoying when meat eaters participate in a thread where someone announces he/she is a vegetarian and attack the person. Why do they do it? It just boggles my mind.

[Richard Steele]

90. I've never met one of those "superior" vegetarians in real life, only on the internets

My Ex-sweetie was V since age 14,
my neice is, and lots of folks in between
that I've met along the way...nice people, every one.

I've never yet met one of those snobbish,
douchebag-style vegetarians that seem to permeate the internets.

All the vegetarians I've met in real life have been
just about the nicest, politest folks I've ever met.

[nemo137]

91. Gabriels Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory

Anonymity + Audience = Shitcock.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

94. where to start?

Too many vegans force a non meat, non dairy diet on their unsuspecting yutes, leaving them far less healthy and more susceptible to disease, weakness, and stunted growth.

Face it, meat is a very efficient way of providing a human body with nourishment, especially proteins and fats. Too much, and you risk disease and death. Hell, too much water will kill you even more efficiently. You may claim that some meats are made less healthy because of pesticides, anti-biotics and other chemicals. Pity, the same applies to vegetables. Meat, in a proper, balanced setting, improves health, provides tremendous nourishment, and increases our life span. Americans, despite our growing obesity issues, have never lived longer, healthier and more productive lives. In great part, hygiene and our food supply have led to that result.

Sure, some vegans and vegetarians manage to supplement their diets and live mostly healthy lives. But to say that eating meat kills is simply animal exceptionalism, much like the American Exceptionalism that you hear on sTalk Radio each day. Do not plants live? Do they not communicate? Do they not change and adapt to new conditions, often quite quickly? Do they not show stress with pained or damaged? Are they not alive?

Humans, and other species, are omnivores. Our dental systems, our digestive systems PROVE that. If you take away meat from other omnivore species, they suffer. The same applies to humans.

[TexasObserver]

104. Well said.

[matt819]

106. At my local vegetarian cafe, there's a New York cartoon on the counter

Two people across a table from each other, one saying to the other: I started my vegetarianism for health reasons, then it became a moral choice, and now it's just to annoy people.

For the life of me I can't understand why people care one way or the other about whether someone is vegegarian or vegan or raw foodie, etc. And on the flip side, I can't understand why vegetarians, vegans, or raw foodies care what a carnivore eats. How far do you want to break this down? Vegetarian but not organic? Organic but not localvore? Carnivore but not factory meat? Vegetarian but don't grown your own? What do you mean you don't eat only what you grow? How can you call yourself a true vegetarian? The raw foodie must view even vegans as engaging in questionable eating behaviors. See what I mean. It gets really idiotic.

I would guess that many of us here on DU have at least given some thought to what and how we eat. Some choose a meat diet because they prefer meat to a purely vegetarian diet. And my guess is that they've thought about factory farms and medicated animals. Some can't afford anything but low-cost meats at the chain grocery store. We might wish it were otherwise, but that's life. Some don't have the time or inclination to mess with farmers' markets or CSA. Fair enough. Others have made commitments to buy only local. That's great, but what if local organic poultry is not available? Is it okay if your organic, natural, grass-fed, free-range chicken travels a few hundred miles to your doorstep? At that point, is it better to go to the grocery store? Again, it gets ridiculous.

The reality is that we all make decisions based on a wide range of factors. I don't suggest we all join hands and sing kumbaya (though, if you're inclined to do so, go ahead), but can we put this artificial conflict to rest?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

120. Progressive omnivores meet with hostility from progressive vegans IRL too

I have a very good group of friends, all liberal minded people who had to stop going out to eat together because a couple of vegans in the group would rail about every place we wanted to go to with some reason why the food there wasn't good enough. We tried places they raved about, didn't like them and were generally called selfish for wanting to actually have food we liked instead "doing the right thing".

I don't like people sneering at me while I'm eating. I suspect a lot of people here at DU have those vegan friends as well, and when they see the soapbox get set up for another rant about why people should go vegan/veggie, we don't want to hear it anymore.

[KonaKane]

124. Oh, I hear that. You should have been in our coffee group.

Continuously soured by the grumpy grouse vegans in the group who never had a good thing to say about anything we were eating or drinking, and basically became a buzzkill on the entire thing. I stopped going, and wasn't the only one, I found out later.

[Warren DeMontague]

126. Understanding and accepting of those who choose a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle & diet? Absolutely.

More power to 'em.

Understanding and accepting of the soapbox-mounting people who take it upon themselves to tell other people what not to eat? Fuck that.

In all these threads, you see "no one is telling anyone what to eat", "no one is calling names", and "no one is making moral judgments on meat eating", etc. then, 5 seconds later someone will do exactly that.

It's not just meat; the threads about the IHOP cheesecake pancakes were a fucking mess. Apparently, there are some folks who have so much free time, they're convinced they should be personally micro-managing the mealtimes of the other 6 billion people on this planet.


Honestly, I think 99.999% of the "problems" around these discussions would disappear if everyone -vegan/meat eater, what have you- would worry about what is on their own forks, and not their neighbors'.

But that's probably not happening, any time soon.