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In your opinion, is breaking the law unethical?

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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:19 AM
Original message
Poll question: In your opinion, is breaking the law unethical?
In my opinion, breaking the law is not unethical.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. It should be that acting unethically is breaking the law
in a perfect world.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
2. Depends on the law. Ethical activity is not defined by codified laws.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. Should Heinz steal the drug?
Edited on Fri Jun-25-10 12:34 AM by depakid
A woman was near death from a special kind of cancer. There was one drug that the doctors thought might save her. It was a form of radium that a druggist in the same town had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but the druggist was charging ten times what the drug cost him to produce. He paid $200 for the radium and charged $2,000 for a small dose of the drug.

The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together about $1,000 which is half of what it cost. He told the druggist that his wife was dying and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the druggist said: "No, I discovered the drug and I'm going to make money from it." So Heinz got desperate and broke into the man's store to steal the drug for his wife.

Should Heinz have broken into the store to steal the drug for his wife? Why or why not?

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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
68. no he should not have broken in
but his punishment should be pretty much limited to restitution. He made the decision to act, he is probably ready to face the consequences.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
3. I voted no, but it really depends on the law.
And on the circumstances.

These are not cut and dried, black or white questions...

There are areas of gray, of confusion...

:shrug:
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Merlot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
4. Breaking the law is breaking the law and there are consequences
I tend to think the consequences are more unethical that the laws in some cases.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. And accepting the consequences doesn't mean one behaved unethically
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Well I trespassed on someone's property to untie a dog who had been
tied up for two days with no food and no water since the dog was tied up. My family and I also kept the dog an additional night and day until the owner arrived to claim the dog. We dare any action on this and the owner has been very silent and looking after the dog a lot better since then. Sometimes you have to do the right thing.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
75. So when it's against the law to feed a starving person, you can be counted on
to destroy your left-overs and report any scofflaws that do share?


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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #75
109. Yeah, and when it's illegal to breathe he'll run around holding people's noses!
When it's illgal to shit in one's own bathroom, he'll super glue everybody's toilet seat down! Same goes for any other totally lame straw-man bullshit you may care to fabricate.
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jtuck004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
5. Are you going to share? n.t.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
23. What would you like me to share? nt
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jtuck004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. Sometimes breaking the law is fun, and sharing just makes it better.
Edited on Fri Jun-25-10 02:07 AM by jtuck004
But my intentional lawbreaking was usually related to things I have smoked.

And things like that, enjoyed without endangering others, just simply should not be illegal. And it's certainly not unethical.

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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
6. Depends on the law, and depends on the situation in which one finds him/herself
breaking it.

Just my opinion. Likely no surprise here.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
27. Hypothetical situation...
Mr. Person poaches a wolf just for fun.

Is Mr. Person's act unethical because he broke the law, because he killed an animal just for fun, or both?

In my opinion, Mr. Person's act would only be unethical because he killed an animal just for fun.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. Hypothetical?
Mr. Person, in this situation, has no ethics. At all.

Killing an animal "just for fun"...best to never ask me about that again.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #34
44. I did not mean to upset you with the poaching hypothetical.
I choose the "just for fun" poaching scenario because I know this is something you think about.

I do not support "just for fun" hunting or trophy hunting in any way.

I wanted to illustrate my belief that ethics is based off of intent and actual behavior rather than the law.
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. As a general matter, yes.
It is part and parcel of the justification for democracy: people do not have a right to do as they please, without the agreement of society.

It is not an absolute rule, however.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #7
62. Perhaps the justification for democracy ...
isn't as ethical as you believe?
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
8. Sometimes breaking a law is more ethical than following it.
(breaking blockades)
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. +1
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
10. Nope, just illegal.
Everyone breaks laws. Which laws they break depend on their willingness to face the music if they get caught.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. +1
PB
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
12. it depends on the law.
many times i drive faster than the speed limit.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
13. Massive civil disobedience is the only way to overturn unjust law
and in that case, breaking the law is the only ethical choice.
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
16. sorry, black and white answers do not apply to much in life
poll needs an "other" or "depends" option
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. Perhaps you can provide some examples to illustrate your ideas. nt
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #26
66. one simplistic example I do all the time:
Edited on Fri Jun-25-10 09:01 AM by Kali
I mostly obey traffic rules but there are times I don't. When I get a call about livestock on the interstate I cross medians, speed (or go too slow) and often don't use my seatbelt or carry my license etc.

More seriously, in re: immigration, if somebody shows up at my door needing help, I help them even to the point of giving a ride somewhere. The ride thing was my only real violation until the new bullshit goes into affect.

I have used legal and illegal substances illegally in both medical and recreational ways.

I tend to respect the boundaries of private property to an extreme. I think people violating laws against persons or their privacy/property should be obeyed/prosecuted. So in terms of civil disobedience I would find violating traffic or crowd dispersing orders easier to violate than vandalism against buildings or vehicles.

In general I could probably come up with a mitigating factor for just about anything including taking a life. It isn't the laws themselves, more the applications of punishment for individual cases of violating them. A hungry person crossing a border or stealing food is a hell of a lot different to me than some punk shoplifting for thrills. Or some corporate executive making greedy management decisions that result in huge environmental or financial disasters. Or even some asshole parking illegally because they are to lazy to walk a few feet.
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #16
80. I disagree on this issue
Ethical behavior does not have a hard tie to legality.

Not all laws are based on ethics, therefore "breaking the law" as a concept, in and of itself, cannot be termed unethical. There's no gray in that logic.

Now ask if breaking a particular law is ethical or unethical, and you open up the gray areas.

Is it uthethical to kill? Depends on the circumstances. Can you kill to save your family? Can you kill to save yourself?

Is it unethical to steal? Again, it depends. Who defines "ownership"? Is it unethical to steal from a thief? What if the thief stole your food? What if the thief stole your house? What if the thief was the person writing the laws?

But circling back, you can't say breaking a law is unethical. You just can't.
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #80
112. I don't think we actually disagree.
I'm just not very articulate sometimes,;) :hi:
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
17. which law? made by who?
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. Doesn't matter. nt
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. it matters a lot.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #33
47. I say "it doesn't matter" because I am only talking about the law.
In my opinion, unethical behavior is unethical regardless of the law.

In my opinion, murder is not unethical because it is illegal, murder is unethical because you are ending someone's life against their will.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. the op is about whether breaking the law is in itself unethical, not about
global "unethical behaviors".
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #51
88. I agree. The poll asks if breaking the law is unethical.
Therefor, the law being broken does not matter as far as the poll question is concerned.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #88
100. it does as far as my answer is concerned. the ethics of law-breaking have
Edited on Fri Jun-25-10 01:05 PM by Hannah Bell
to do with how laws are made, who makes them, & the actual content of the laws.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. Can you think of an unethical and criminal action which would
become ethical if it became legal?

In other words, does making an action legal make the action more ethical?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #103
114. you're stuck in your frame. the op is about the ethics of law-breaking.
if oprah winfrey became supreme leader & started proclaiming the best, kindest, most decent laws ever, I'd nevertheless have no ethical problem with breaking them -- because of the process by which they were made.

it's not about the morality/ethics of individual laws.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. Are you claiming the method for creating laws determines
Edited on Fri Jun-25-10 02:25 PM by ZombieHorde
the ethics behind breaking those laws?

I am trying to understand your viewpoint.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. i'm claiming that the ethics of law-breaking isn't only about the content of the laws, but about how
laws are made, enforced, prosecuted, etc.

it's not that hard to understand.

it's ethical to pay one's rent, & it's the law.

yet there are many circumstances in which i'd consider rent strikes & building occupations ethical.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. Can you offer an example where breaking a law is unethical because a law has been broken? nt
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. i think i've been quite clear. goodbye.
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Bert Donating Member (445 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. Here is my answer
Edited on Fri Jun-25-10 04:07 AM by Bert
Let's see, currently it is against the law for me to smoke weed, which harms no one. It isnt against the law for companies to push alcohol and tobacco which I hold directly responsible for the deaths of two family members of mine. It isnt against the law for drug companies to push their newest and greatest drugs on the evening news every day. It isnt against the law for corporations to control our elections through their billions of dollars. It is against the law to perform abortions in certain states and that is questionable. There are still counties in this country where it is against the law to sell alchohol, theres that prohibition thing again. It is against the law in the millitary to have anal or oral sex with your own wife, not to mention that gays are forbidden in the millitary. It has historically been against the law to own property being a black man, or to help runaway slaves. It has been forbidden for women to vote for most of our history.

If you go to Saudi Arabia and have a maxim magazine or a glass of beer that is against the law, as is for women to reveal their faces or be alone with a man who is not a member of their family. It was against the law in Germany around WWII to be a jew or to aid a jew. At the founding of our country it was against the law for a man without property to vote. It was against the law during Vietnam for a man who didn't believe in the war but was drafted to not go into the millitary. During the Bush administration it was against the law for us to counsel overseas nations receiving aid or women in the millitary about abortion. It is against the law in my state of Indiana to buy a car or have a bar open on Sundays that doesent receive more than 50% of it's receipts in food. I believe it is against the law to burn a flag in protest, though that is how old flags are retired I believe. It isnt against the law for churches to fire employees for their personal beliefs, but it is against the law for us to tax them. It is against the law in Texas to teach about Thomas Jefferson and the separation of church and state(bit of a reach on that one, but barely). Do I need to go on? In England at around the turn of the century(1900) it was agaisnt the law to give women pain killers during birth because we wanted women to remember that the pain was because of their original sin. It historically wasnt against the law to have child labor in brutal conditions all day. It wasnt against the law to go union busting.

Not too long ago it was against the law for black people to drink from the same water fountains as white people, or to sit at the front of the bus. It wasnt agaisnt the law for us to steal land from indians. It isnt against the law for the government to break into our houses and wiretap our phones without a courts permission on the premise of the patriot act. It isnt against the law for a company to test your urine, blood, and hair when you apply for a job even though I think that falls under unreasonable search and seizure issues. Corporations are considered people but they can get away with murder. It is against the law for a child to see a woman's breast but not to see countless killings and tortues on tv and in video games. It isnt against the law to push garbage food and crazy amounts of sugar on kids with clowns on tv and toys in the meals. It isnt against the law for clergy to go on tv and extort money from old senile people. It isnt against the law to have 50 guns in your house. It is against the law in some areas to make a video of a policeman abusing their powers. Many protests in our history have been against the law. Living in shanty towns when you are homeless is against the law. Having an opinion that doesent meet government approval in certain times has been against the law or close enough with red baiting that it made no difference. It is against the law for individual to commit a crime as determined by the state. It isnt as much of a breaking of the law for the state to committ a crime against it's own citizens, that is as determined by the state which in the end is the ultimate arbiter of what is and what isnt the law.

Insurance companies dropping you for becoming sick or unemployed isnt against the law(thank you fellow poster for this one though this may have changed by now). And it is now not against the law thanks to our supreme court to deny people arrested knowledge of what remains of their miranda rights. It isnt against the law to commit capital punishment in our country. It isnt against the law to turn a blind eye to people being raped in jail as well as inhumane overcrowding(okay bit of a stretch again but it sure does happen). When bush was in office there were free speech zones, meaning you couldnt protest an event unless you were in a cordoned off zone, so basically them denying you of free speech wasnt against the law. Waterboarding prisoners wasnt against the law as well as sexually degrading political prisoners, unless you were a grunt. If you were the one giving orders at the top it was all right.
It isnt against the law for the government to take your house if they want to put up a new highway or mall. In Salem not too long ago it was against the law to be a witch. It is still against the law in most places in america for gays to be married. It used to be against the law to teach evolution, and now in some places it against the law to teach evolution without also teaching creationism. It used to be against the law for interacial marriage.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. excellent +++1 (nt)
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #37
45. Good post. nt
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
18. Depends on the law and the situation.
Edited on Fri Jun-25-10 12:49 AM by Lucian
For example, I don't think that stealing from a grocery store because you need to feed your family because you're poor is unethical.

It all depends.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. Hypothetical situation...
Mr. Person steals a car just for fun.

Is Mr. Person's theft unethical because he broke the law, because he stole a car just for fun, or both? (assuming you believe stealing a car just for fun is unethical)

I think Mr. Person's theft would be unethical only because he stole a car just for fun.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
20. Which law?
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Doesn't matter. nt
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
21. Not all laws are based on ethics. n/t
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
22. No, it a song by Judas Priest maaan!
:headbang:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
28. It can be but it isn't necessarily.
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trusty elf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
30. hmmm....
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #30
73. that's funny!
probably old, but I haven't seen it before:rofl: :thumbsup:
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sea four Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
31. I voted no. It depends on the law though.
It's ethical to break unjust, or tyrannical laws.

It's not ethical to break laws that you just disagree with.

It's bad to encourage breaking the law, but some laws need to be broken so they get changed.

That's what I think. It depends on which law we are talking about.
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Bert Donating Member (445 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
35. Let's review some laws
Edited on Fri Jun-25-10 03:10 AM by Bert
Let's see, currently it is against the law for me to smoke weed, which harms no one. It isnt against the law for companies to push alcohol and tobacco which I hold directly responsible for the deaths of two family members of mine. It isnt against the law for drug companies to push their newest and greatest drugs on the evening news every day. It isnt against the law for corporations to control our elections through their billions of dollars. It is against the law to perform abortions in certain states and that is questionable. There are still counties in this country where it is against the law to sell alchohol, theres that prohibition thing again. It is against the law in the millitary to have anal or oral sex with your own wife, not to mention that gays are forbidden in the millitary. It has historically been against the law to own property being a black man, or to help runaway slaves. It has been forbidden for women to vote for most of our history.

If you go to Saudi Arabia and have a maxim magazine or a glass of beer that is against the law, as is for women to reveal their faces or be alone with a man who is not a member of their family. It was against the law in Germany around WWII to be a jew or to aid a jew. At the founding of our country it was against the law for a man without property to vote. It was against the law during Vietnam for a man who didn't believe in the war but was drafted to not go into the millitary. During the Bush administration it was against the law for us to counsel overseas nations receiving aid or women in the millitary about abortion. It is against the law in my state of Indiana to buy a car or have a bar open on Sundays that doesent receive more than 50% of it's receipts in food. I believe it is against the law to burn a flag in protest, though that is how old flags are retired I believe. It isnt against the law for churches to fire employees for their personal beliefs, but it is against the law for us to tax them. It is against the law in Texas to teach about Thomas Jefferson and the separation of church and state(bit of a reach on that one, but barely). Do I need to go on? In England at around the turn of the century(1900) it was agaisnt the law to give women pain killers during birth because we wanted women to remember that the pain was because of their original sin. It historically wasnt against the law to have child labor in brutal conditions all day. It wasnt against the law to go union busting.

Not too long ago it was against the law for black people to drink from the same water fountains as white people, or to sit at the front of the bus. It wasnt agaisnt the law for us to steal land from indians. It isnt against the law for the government to break into our houses and wiretap our phones without a courts permission on the premise of the patriot act. It isnt against the law for a company to test your urine, blood, and hair when you apply for a job even though I think that falls under unreasonable search and seizure issues. Corporations are considered people but they can get away with murder. It is against the law for a child to see a woman's breast but not to see countless killings and tortues on tv and in video games. It isnt against the law to push garbage food and crazy amounts of sugar on kids with clowns on tv and toys in the meals. It isnt against the law for clergy to go on tv and extort money from old senile people. It isnt against the law to have 50 guns in your house. It is against the law in some areas to make a video of a policeman abusing their powers. Many protests in our history have been against the law. Living in shanty towns when you are homeless is against the law. Having an opinion that doesent meet government approval in certain times has been against the law or close enough with red baiting that it made no difference. It is against the law for individual to commit a crime as determined by the state. It isnt as much of a breaking of the law for the state to committ a crime against it's own citizens, that is as determined by the state which in the end is the ultimate arbiter of what is and what isnt the law.
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Bert Donating Member (445 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. forgot a few
Edited on Fri Jun-25-10 04:08 AM by Bert
Insurance companies dropping you for becoming sick or unemployed isnt against the law(thank you fellow poster for this one though this may have changed by now). And it is now not against the law thanks to our supreme court to deny people arrested knowledge of what remains of their miranda rights. It isnt against the law to commit capital punishment in our country. It isnt against the law to turn a blind eye to people being raped in jail as well as inhumane overcrowding(okay bit of a stretch again but it sure does happen). When bush was in office there were free speech zones, meaning you couldnt protest an event unless you were in a cordoned off zone, so basically them denying you of free speech wasnt against the law. Waterboarding prisoners wasnt against the law as well as sexually degrading political prisoners, unless you were a grunt. If you were the one giving orders at the top it was all right. It isnt against the law for the government to take your home if it wants to put in a new highway. In Salem in a certain time it was against the law to be a witch. It is still against the law in most places in america for gays to be married. It used to be against the law to teach evolution, and now in some places it against the law to teach evolution without also teaching creationism. It used to be against the law for interacial marriage.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 02:57 AM
Response to Original message
36. "Legal" and "Ethical" are not the same thing. In fact they often contradict.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. I agree, the two are independent. nt
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #42
105. You are missing one aspect though
While ethics and legality are not necessarily, and perhaps even not all that often, closely correlated, there is a moral harm in breaking laws themselves. The amount of this harm varies from minuscule to quite significant as far as discrete felicife calculus, but it is not nil.

Laws exist as a framework to protect society against acts it perceives as harmful, because we know that not all members of scoeity can be trusted to make universalized beneficial decisions Usually there is some merit to this shared perception. Theft, rape, murder, etc etc. Sometimes there is little or none. Some drug use, some pornography, some gun laws etc. But the laws that are enforced in general support these perceptions, or they get changed. Interracial marriage, segregation, homosexual acts etc are now either de jure legal or de facto decriminalized most everywhere in the US. We are starting to see this process happen with the personal use of marijuana in that it's becoming prosecuted less and less in many areas/circumstances. You can argue with pacing and details, but in general an even vaguely democratic society gets the laws it wants.

So in breaking those laws a moral agent is saying to society "I don't think these laws of ours are worth obeying so I won't". As an individual act this can be anything from harmless to catastrophic to actually beneficial (one could trespass to save a child from a fire), but as an aggregate effect it is an action against the framework of laws society as a whole has established to protect itself. This makes the society as a whole more fearful, and encourages them to misallocate resources to protecting themselves or insuring themselves in other ways. The less law-breaking there is perceived to be, the safer society feels, and the less fearfully and irrationally it will act. Whether you like this idea or not it's true, even on a microcsomic scale. Few people indeed are as willing to stop their car and get out to help a homeless person in a neighborhood known for high crime rates than they are in a safer place. Fewer people want to spend time and money in the higher crime areas, or want to invest in businesses to create jobs there. Even if the crime rate is largely based on actions that are in and of themselves of limited harm to others (selling dope or prostitution maybe), the negative perception of high crime will cause harm by increasing fear and irrational actions.

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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. I will think about this viewpoint for awhile, thanks for posting. nt
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MiniMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
38. I think it is very difficult to answer this queation in the curent form
It depends on what the law is that is broken and what the reason is that the law is broken. Insurance companies refusing to pay for treatment because of the cost is unethical, but it is not against the law
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. My question is about intentionally breaking the law.
In my opinion, setting someone's house on fire is not unethical because it is illegal, setting someone's house on fire is unethical because you are destroying their property and endangering others.

In my opinion, making something illegal does not make it unethical. Unethical behavior is unethical regardless of the law.
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 04:03 AM
Response to Original message
41. Which law?
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #41
48. Any law. Let me ask another way.
Is stealing someone's car unethical because stealing cars is illegal, or is stealing cars unethical for other reasons?

Does making something illegal make that thing unethical, or are the two completely independent?
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Thanks, now it's clear. No, breaking the law isn't unethical...
...it's the harm to others (or society) that is unethical.

Breaking "bad laws" is illegal, but theoretically not unethical. A bad law example might be a local ordinance that makes it illegal to hang your wash out to dry. The law was passed because laundry is unsightly, but overlooks the energy consumption, pollution, etc. So hang out your laundry and risk the laundry police.

Smoking pot that you grew yourself is illegal (at least here) but not unethical. No one is harmed, except perhaps yourself (smoking is not good for the lungs). This is a victimless crime.

Crimes that harm others are both illegal and unethical.

Acts that harm others, but are not illegal, remain unethical.

Passing laws that harm the people (as in "We the People") in favor of a special interest is unethical, but unfortunately, not illegal.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #50
81. Voted No - "illegal" is not the same as "unethical"
I posted it as a reply to Scuba rather than the OP as
this was the "best" summary that I saw (i.e., the one closest
to my own position).

> No, breaking the law isn't unethical...
> ...it's the harm to others (or society) that is unethical.

> Breaking "bad laws" is illegal, but theoretically not unethical.
> Crimes that harm others are both illegal and unethical.
> Acts that harm others, but are not illegal, remain unethical.

:thumbsup:

(Thanks too to ZombieHorde for the most interesting poll I've seen
in GD for a long time!)
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demoleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
43. no. it might be immoral, but not unethical. i'm with Antigone. n/t
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LawnKorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 05:45 AM
Response to Original message
49. Marijuana
    Preservation of life and limb

    Self defense

    Avoiding an accident while driving

    Hunger

When does the law itself become unethical?
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USArmyParatrooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #49
59. On marijuana that also depends
Edited on Fri Jun-25-10 06:29 AM by USArmyParatrooper
I think it should be legalized and smoking pot alone is not unethical, at least no more so than drinking alcohol. However, because it's illegal if I smoke it I put my career at risk and I risk an enormous financial hit that I cannot afford. This puts my family at risk. Risking my family's wellbeing for recreational fun is unethical.

This is case of the law itself dictating ethics, and not the other way around. Kind of ironic isn't it?
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. Smoking pot become unethical when it becomes illegal....
...if you acquire it (directly or indirectly) from drug cartels. Growing your own and smoking is not unethical; supporting a drug cartel is.

If pot were legalized, it would no longer be unethical because the pot suppliers would become legitimate.
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USArmyParatrooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. That's another example. It all depends
Some action are illegal and independently unethical

Some actions are made unethical due to the illegality of them

Some actions are ethical despite their illegality, like Rosa Parks refusing the back of the bus

Many actions are unethical, but legal
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
52. The sets of "That Which Is Unlawful" and "That Which Is Unethical" do intersect,
but not by 100%.
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kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 06:03 AM
Response to Original message
53. Gandhi broke the law and marched to collect salt at beach
He was beaten by soldiers but he refused to be violent. In the end, Britain decided to leave India.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
54. A helpful resource..and entertaining, as well
http://www.justiceharvard.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=9&Itemid=5

For the best learning experience, watch the twelve Justice episodes in chronological order. Each one hour episode includes two separate lectures. Below is a summary of all twelve episodes.

PART ONE: THE MORAL SIDE OF MURDER

If you had to choose between (1) killing one person to save the lives of five others and (2) doing nothing even though you knew that five people would die right before your eyes if you did nothing—what would you do? What would be the right thing to do? That’s the hypothetical scenario Professor Michael Sandel uses to launch his course on moral reasoning. After the majority of students votes for killing the one person in order to save the lives of five others, Sandel presents three similar moral conundrums—each one artfully designed to make the decision more difficult. As students stand up to defend their conflicting choices, it becomes clear that the assumptions behind our moral reasoning are often contradictory, and the question of what is right and what is wrong is not always black and white.

PART TWO: THE CASE FOR CANNIBALISM

Sandel introduces the principles of utilitarian philosopher, Jeremy Bentham, with a famous nineteenth century legal case involving a shipwrecked crew of four. After nineteen days lost at sea, the captain decides to kill the weakest amongst them, the young cabin boy, so that the rest can feed on his blood and body to survive. The case sets up a classroom debate about the moral validity of utilitarianism—and its doctrine that the right thing to do is whatever produces "the greatest good for the greatest number."


Episode Two

PART ONE: PUTTING A PRICE TAG ON LIFE

Today, companies and governments often use Jeremy Bentham’s utilitarian logic under the name of “cost-benefit analysis.” Sandel presents some contemporary cases in which cost-benefit analysis was used to put a dollar value on human life. The cases give rise to several objections to the utilitarian logic of seeking “the greatest good for the greatest number.” Should we always give more weight to the happiness of a majority, even if the majority is cruel or ignoble? Is it possible to sum up and compare all values using a common measure like money?

PART TWO: HOW TO MEASURE PLEASURE

Sandel introduces J.S. Mill, a utilitarian philosopher who attempts to defend utilitarianism against the objections raised by critics of the doctrine. Mill argues that seeking “the greatest good for the greatest number” is compatible with protecting individual rights, and that utilitarianism can make room for a distinction between higher and lower pleasures. Mill’s idea is that the higher pleasure is always the pleasure preferred by a well-informed majority. Sandel tests this theory by playing video clips from three very different forms of entertainment: Shakespeare’s Hamlet, the reality show Fear Factor, and The Simpsons. Students debate which experience provides the higher pleasure, and whether Mill’s defense of utilitarianism is successful.


Episode Three

PART ONE: FREE TO CHOOSE

Sandel introduces the libertarian conception of individual rights, according to which only a minimal state is justified. Libertarians argue that government shouldn’t have the power to enact laws that 1) protect people from themselves, such as seat belt laws, 2) impose some people’s moral values on society as a whole, or 3) redistribute income from the rich to the poor. Sandel explains the libertarian notion that redistributive taxation is akin to forced labor with references to Bill Gates and Michael Jordan.

PART TWO: WHO OWNS ME?

Libertarian philosopher Robert Nozick makes the case that taxing the wealthy—to pay for housing, health care, and education for the poor—is a form of coercion. Students first discuss the arguments behind redistributive taxation. Don’t most poor people need the social services they receive in order to survive? If you live in a society that has a system of progressive taxation, aren’t you obligated to pay your taxes? Don’t many rich people often acquire their wealth through sheer luck or family fortune? A group of students dubbed “Team Libertarian” volunteers to defend the libertarian philosophy against these objections.


Episode Four
PART ONE: THIS LAND IS MY LAND

The philosopher John Locke believes that individuals have certain rights so fundamental that no government can ever take them away. These rights—to life, liberty and property—were given to us as human beings in the “the state of nature,” a time before government and laws were created. According to Locke, our natural rights are governed by the law of nature, known by reason, which says that we can neither give them up nor take them away from anyone else. Sandel wraps up the lecture by raising a question: what happens to our natural rights once we enter society and consent to a system of laws?

PART TWO: CONSENTING ADULTS

If we all have unalienable rights to life, liberty, and property, how can a government enforce tax laws passed by the representatives of a mere majority? Doesn’t that amount to taking some people’s property without their consent? Locke’s response is that we give our “tacit consent” to obey the tax laws passed by a majority when we choose to live in a society. Therefore, taxation is legitimate and compatible with individual rights, as long as it applies to everyone and does not arbitrarily single anyone out.


Episode Five
PART ONE: HIRED GUNS

During the Civil War, men drafted into war had the option of hiring substitutes to fight in their place. Professor Sandel asks students whether they consider this policy just. Many do not, arguing that it is unfair to allow the affluent to avoid serving and risking their lives by paying less privileged citizens to fight in their place. This leads to a classroom debate about war and conscription. Is today’s voluntary army open to the same objection? Should military service be allocated by the labor market or by conscription? What role should patriotism play, and what are the obligations of citizenship? Is there a civic duty to serve one’s country? And are utilitarians and libertarians able to account for this duty?

PART TWO: MOTHERHOOD: FOR SALE

In this lecture, Professor Sandel examines the principle of free-market exchange in light of the contemporary controversy over reproductive rights. Sandel begins with a humorous discussion of the business of egg and sperm donation. He then describes the case of “Baby M"—a famous legal battle in the mid-eighties that raised the unsettling question, “Who owns a baby?" In 1985, a woman named Mary Beth Whitehead signed a contract with a New Jersey couple, agreeing to be a surrogate mother in exchange for a fee of $10,000. However, after giving birth, Ms. Whitehead decided she wanted to keep the child, and the case went to court. Sandel and students debate the nature of informed consent, the morality of selling a human life, and the meaning of maternal rights.


Episode Six
PART ONE: MIND YOUR MOTIVE

Professor Sandel introduces Immanuel Kant, a challenging but influential philosopher. Kant rejects utilitarianism. He argues that each of us has certain fundamental duties and rights that take precedence over maximizing utility. Kant rejects the notion that morality is about calculating consequences. When we act out of duty—doing something simply because it is right—only then do our actions have moral worth. Kant gives the example of a shopkeeper who passes up the chance to shortchange a customer only because his business might suffer if other customers found out. According to Kant, the shopkeeper’s action has no moral worth, because he did the right thing for the wrong reason.

PART TWO: THE SUPREME PRINCIPLE OF MORALITY

Immanuel Kant says that insofar as our actions have moral worth, what confers moral worth is our capacity to rise above self-interest and inclination and to act out of duty. Sandel tells the true story of a thirteen-year old boy who won a spelling bee contest, but then admitted to the judges that he had, in fact, misspelled the final word. Using this story and others, Sandel explains Kant’s test for determining whether an action is morally right: to identify the principle expressed in our action and then ask whether that principle could ever become a universal law that every other human being could act on.


Episode Seven
PART ONE: A LESSON IN LYING

Immanuel Kant’s stringent theory of morality allows for no exceptions. Kant believed that telling a lie, even a white lie, is a violation of one’s own dignity. Professor Sandel asks students to test Kant’s theory with this hypothetical case: if your friend were hiding inside your home, and a person intent on killing your friend came to your door and asked you where he was, would it be wrong to tell a lie? If so, would it be moral to try to mislead the murderer without actually lying? This leads to a discussion of the morality of “misleading truths.” Sandel wraps up the lecture with a video clip of one of the most famous, recent examples of dodging the truth: President Clinton talking about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky.

PART TWO: A DEAL IS A DEAL

Sandel introduces the modern philosopher John Rawls and his theory of a “hypothetical social contract.” Rawls argues that principles of justice are the outcome of a special kind of agreement. They are the principles we would all agree to if we had to choose rules for our society and no one had any unfair bargaining power. According to Rawls, the only way to ensure that no one has more power than anyone else is to imagine a scenario where no one knows his or her age, sex, race, intelligence, strength, social position, family wealth, religion, or even his or her goals in life. Rawls calls this hypothetical situation a “veil of ignorance.” What principles would we agree to behind this “veil of ignorance”? And would these principles be fair? Professor Sandel explains the idea of a fair agreement with some humorous examples of actual contracts that produce unfair results.


Episode Eight
PART ONE: WHAT’S A FAIR START?

Is it just to tax the rich to help the poor? John Rawls says we should answer this question by asking what principles you would choose to govern the distribution of income and wealth if you did not know who you were, whether you grew up in privilege or in poverty. Wouldn’t you want an equal distribution of wealth, or one that maximally benefits whomever happens to be the least advantaged? After all, that might be you. Rawls argues that even meritocracy—a distributive system that rewards effort—doesn’t go far enough in leveling the playing field because those who are naturally gifted will always get ahead. Furthermore, says Rawls, the naturally gifted can’t claim much credit because their success often depends on factors as arbitrary as birth order. Sandel makes Rawls’s point when he asks the students who were first born in their family to raise their hands.

PART TWO: WHAT DO WE DESERVE?

Professor Sandel recaps how income, wealth, and opportunities in life should be distributed, according to the three different theories raised so far in class. He summarizes libertarianism, the meritocratic system, and John Rawls’s egalitarian theory. Sandel then launches a discussion of the fairness of pay differentials in modern society. He compares the salary of former Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor ($200,000) with the salary of television’s Judge Judy ($25 million). Sandel asks, is this fair? According to John Rawls, it is not. Rawls argues that an individual’s personal success is often a function of morally arbitrary facts—luck, genes, and family circumstances—for which he or she can claim no credit. Those at the bottom are no less worthy simply because they weren’t born with the talents a particular society rewards, Rawls argues, and the only just way to deal with society’s inequalities is for the naturally advantaged to share their wealth with those less fortunate.


Episode Nine
PART ONE: ARGUING AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

Sandel describes the 1996 court case of a white woman named Cheryl Hopwood who was denied admission to a Texas law school, even though she had higher grades and test scores than some of the minority applicants who were admitted. Hopwood took her case to court, arguing the school’s affirmative action program violated her rights. Students discuss the pros and cons of affirmative action. Should we try to correct for inequality in educational backgrounds by taking race into consideration? Should we compensate for historical injustices such as slavery and segregation? Is the argument in favor of promoting diversity a valid one? How does it size up against the argument that a student’s efforts and achievements should carry more weight than factors that are out of his or her control and therefore arbitrary? When a university’s stated mission is to increase diversity, is it a violation of rights to deny a white person admission?

PART TWO: WHAT’S THE PURPOSE?

Sandel introduces Aristotle and his theory of justice. Aristotle disagrees with Rawls and Kant. He believes that justice is about giving people their due, what they deserve. When considering matters of distribution, Aristotle argues one must consider the goal, the end, the purpose of what is being distributed. The best flutes, for example, should go to the best flute players. And the highest political offices should go to those with the best judgment and the greatest civic virtue. For Aristotle, justice is a matter of fitting a person’s virtues with an appropriate role.



Episode Ten
PART ONE: THE GOOD CITIZEN

Aristotle believes the purpose of politics is to promote and cultivate the virtue of its citizens. The telos or goal of the state and political community is the “good life”. And those citizens who contribute most to the purpose of the community are the ones who should be most rewarded. But how do we know the purpose of a community or a practice? Aristotle’s theory of justice leads to a contemporary debate about golf. Sandel describes the case of Casey Martin, a disabled golfer, who sued the PGA after it declined his request to use a golf cart on the PGA Tour. The case leads to a debate about the purpose of golf and whether a player’s ability to “walk the course” is essential to the game.

PART TWO: FREEDOM VS. FIT

How does Aristotle address the issue of individual rights and the freedom to choose? If our place in society is determined by where we best fit, doesn’t that eliminate personal choice? What if I am best suited to do one kind of work, but I want to do another? In this lecture, Sandel addresses one of the most glaring objections to Aristotle’s views on freedom—his defense of slavery as a fitting social role for certain human beings. Students discuss other objections to Aristotle’s theories and debate whether his philosophy overly restricts the freedom of individuals.



Episode Eleven
PART ONE: THE CLAIMS OF COMMUNITY

Professor Sandel presents Kant’s objections to Aristotle’s theory. Kant believes politics must respect individual freedom. People must always respect other people’s freedom to make their own choices—a universal duty to humanity—but for Kant, there is no other source of moral obligation. The discussion of Kant’s view leads to an introduction to the communitarian philosophy. Communitarians argue that, in addition to voluntary and universal duties, we also have obligations of membership, solidarity, and loyalty. These obligations are not necessarily based on consent. We inherit our past, and our identities, from our family, city, or country. But what happens if our obligations to our family or community come into conflict with our universal obligations to humanity?

PART TWO: WHERE OUR LOYALTY LIES

Professor Sandel leads a discussion about the arguments for and against obligations of solidarity and membership. Do we owe more to our fellow citizens that to citizens of other countries? Is patriotism a virtue, or a prejudice for one’s own kind? If our identities are defined by the particular communities we inhabit, what becomes of universal human rights? Using various scenarios, students debate whether or not obligations of loyalty can ever outweigh universal duties of justice.


Episode Twelve
PART ONE: DEBATING SAME-SEX MARRIAGE

If principles of justice depend on the moral or intrinsic worth of the ends that rights serve, how should we deal with the fact that people hold different ideas and conceptions of what is good? Students address this question in a heated debate about same-sex marriage. Should same-sex marriage be legal? Can we settle the matter without discussing the moral permissibility of homosexuality or the purpose of marriage?

PART TWO: THE GOOD LIFE

Professor Sandel raises two questions. Is it necessary to reason about the good life in order to decide what rights people have and what is just? If so, how is it possible to argue about the nature of the good life? Students explore these questions with a discussion about the relation of law and morality, as played out in public controversies over same-sex marriage and abortion. Michael Sandel concludes his lecture series by making the point that, in many cases, the law can’t be neutral on hard moral questions. Engaging rather than avoiding the moral convictions of our fellow citizens may be the best way of seeking a just society.

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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #54
91. Bookmarked. Looks interesting. nt
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #91
104. It's great..like getting a free philosophy course at Harvard..for FREE
Of course none of my college profs were 1/10th as interesting:)
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
55. I took no ...
Some laws are unethical and they need to be broken so that they can be taken to court and overturned. If the courts do that anymore. I wonder how many courts these days are unethical? Let us start with the Supreme Court. Hmmmmm.
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W_HAMILTON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
56. It depends on whether or not the law is ethical.
I wish there were a third option on the poll reflecting this.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
57. Not if you are a soulless hypocrite and a hard core mega-thug like
Dick Cheney.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
58. "An Unjust Law Is No Law At All"
St. Augustine
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
60. Segregation was once "the law" in some states, breaking it was not in any way "unethical"!
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
61. Some of you are overanalyzing..
.. the question. It's not about which law it is. It's about the concept, is doing something that is illegal AUTOMATICALLY AND INEXORABLY unethical (I would add immoral).

The answer is clearly NO, when so many of our laws are ridiculous on their face and so many others are selectively enforced.
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #61
72. I read the question as:
Edited on Fri Jun-25-10 09:12 AM by Hosnon
"Can breaking the law be unethical?" not "Is breaking the law always unethical?"
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #61
94. I agree with you assessment of my poll. I probably should have included an example. nt
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
65. I would put a third choice. Breaking an ethical law is unethical.
For example I believe the prohibition on premeditated murder to be ethical thus someone breaking that law is unethical.

The prohibition on "sins" I find to not have any ethical basis thus I wouldn't consider someone who violates a "sin" law (drugs, gambling, prostitution, etc) to be unethical.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #65
93. I premeditated murder unethical because it is illegal, or is premeditated murder unethical for other
reasons?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
67. Depends on if the law in question is ethical or unethical.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
69. Sometimes yes, sometimes no
It depends on the specifics of the law and the circumstances under which one breaks it.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
70. yes but with exceptions
Edited on Fri Jun-25-10 09:18 AM by LaurenG
in some cases laws are horrendous in which case it would unethical to follow them. There is no easy answer to this except to say if you break a law but end up helping someone it may be that the end result justifies the breaking of the law, in which case it would not have been unethical.

Case by case I suppose.

edit spelling and typo

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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
71. Completely dependent upon the law.
For example: Murder? Yes. Failing to submit the appropriate number of copies when submitting a bid with a local government? No.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #71
92. Is murder unethical because murder is illegal, or is murder unethical for other reasons? nt
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #92
113. Other reasons. nt.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
74. This has got to be one of the best DU polls ever.
I didn't vote in it.

I find the answers fascinating due to the educational shilling that goes on here. I wonder what happens to a kid who decides that the 'compulsory' aspect of education is unethical. My guess is The System (composed of many folks, but generally directed hierarchically) breaks the kid.
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
76. No (nt)
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
77. In a world where you cannot back out of your driveway without committing some violation, no
In many situations ethics and legality have little and nothing to do with each other.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
78. Abortion is allowed under the law. If someone illegally stops an abortion, is that unethical? nt
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #78
95. In my opinion, if the abortion stopper was acting unethically,
the unethical behavior would not be unethical because a law was broken, the unethical behavior would be unethical for other reasons. I hope that makes sense.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #95
120. Well, that's true of any situation. Actually, "unethical" implies there's a Code of Ethics involved
Few people have to abide by a Code of Ethics. Lawyers have one, I guess doctors have one, and I guess other professions have them...but they apply to their work. I am a mid-level professional; I have a Code of Ethics I have to abide by, but it pertains only to my work.

So the OP should probably have asked, maybe, whether someone is acting immorally? Rather than unethically?
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
79. for what?. . to EAT?
no
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
82. Nope.
And sometimes it's unethical not to break the law.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
83. This is not Nam, Smokey. There are rules. n/t
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #83
96. I agree with your claims, "This is not Nam" and "There are rules."
Do you agree with my claim, "breaking the law is not unethical"?

I am not referring to individual actions such as murder, theft, taking one of your spouse's prescription pain pills, etc.

I am asking if making something illegal makes it unethical.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
84. It depends.
On what law, and for what reason.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
85. No, the law is or is supposed to be a way to deal with bad actions
The ethics violation takes place when the negative action is taken, regardless if a law was broken or not.

If an action does not directly harm others without choice or recourse then it is the law that is immoral rather than the action.
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
86. You said breaking "the" law, meaning you have a specific law in mind.
What is "the" law you are referring to?
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #86
97. The law of the land, as established by the government.
Not natural laws, such as bees and horses cannot mate with each other and produce fertile offspring.

Not religious laws, such as the prohibition against shellfish.
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. Which law of the land?
There are several.

But since you refuse to be specific then I'm going to assume you mean rape. You wish to rape someone and you're trying to weigh the ethics of the act.

I'll vote yes. Don't rape anyone because it is unethical.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. Is rape unethical because rape is illegal, or is rape unethical for other reasons?
If rape was legal, would rape be even slightly more ethical?

In my opinion, rape is unethical regardless of the law.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
87. First, you must ask who made the law, and then ask why.
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
89. No
There are certain acts that happen to be illegal that are unethical.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
90. Without both relevant context and specificity
Without both relevant context and specificity, the question holds as much meaning as "does A = C?"
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #90
98. Let's pretend action A is illegal. You also consider action A to be unethical.
Is action A unethical because action A is illegal, or is action A illegal for other reasons.

Think of various unethical crimes for action A, and then consider if any of them would be ethical if the action was legal.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
101. You don't know what it's like, You don't have a clue
If you did you'd find yourselves doing the same thing too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psTUiQzNoxw
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
107. Some laws are unethical...
It has always been so.
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Dr Morbius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
108. Once, the most wanted criminal in America was Harriet Tubman.
DO NO HARM. If obeying the law requires you to do harm, breaking the law is the only ethical response. The law should reflect justice but doesn't always.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
110. Depends what the law is
Smoking marijuana, no. Killing, theft, rape--yes.
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lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
111. Not always.



Some laws were put in place under the influence of moneyed interests by wining and dining easily manipulated lawmakers so that they would put unfair laws on the books. Banks, telcos, insurance cos, hospitals & clinics, car dealers and others have the law on their side while the average consumer can't do much else but complain and pay through the nose.


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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-10 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
116. It all depends
Edited on Fri Jun-25-10 02:33 PM by guitar man
If you have a huge spleef and you're bogarting it and don't pass it over so a brother can have a toke, that's unethical as hell! :smoke:
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glen123098 Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
121. Breaking ethical laws is unethical.
Breaking unethical laws should be a requirement.
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