Can we talk about the DRAFT. Something that I, myself, may not fully agree with...

[Robeson]

...but, if we want to stop these wars. Stop unbounded imperialism, and force Jane and Joe around their kitchen table to have to actually think and deal with issues, we may need to think about reinstalling the DRAFT.

Right now, most Americans look at our army as something that is almost a mercenary force. In many ways it is. Until the concept of life and death is brought home to everyone, this madness of imperialism will not end. I remember growing up in the Vietnam era, and I remember my Republican Dad talking to my Mom about sending my brother and I to Canada, so we wouldn't have to go, if the war was still going on when we reached the age of going.

Of course, I'm not naive. Few politicians would agree with me. They would - politically - be scared to death to go along with such a thing.

I welcome everyone's opinions.

[PavePusher]

1. I suggest you tread carefully around...

implying that the U.S. Armed Forces are mercenaries (and I don't generally have anything against mercs).

But there are some pretty vast differences between the two, and a lot of people around here more than happy to hand you your metaphorical head for the suggestion.

Myself included.

Edit: I agree with you on the draft issue. If we are at war (and we assuredly are) the responsibility should be shared by all. If/when we pull out, go back to the all-volunteer force.

[freespeechtv]

2. Draft, poverty, and the middle east

You have to check out this interview we just posted with ex US marine Chantelle Bateman who talks about poverty and the draft, and his Middle East Experience. It was taken today at the US Social Forum, where there are many discussions going on on the very topic you've raised. I hope to hear other people's thoughts on this.

<"http://www.livestream.com/freespeechtv/video?clipId=flv_f58a7f76-9e46-4bb2-896b-395e96eb089e">

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. YES somebody is starting to get it

real conversation, with my brother...

My husband is a retired USN Chief... so we were talking about the war and all that, which he fully supports because well we need to stop terrarits (and while we need to do that, well that is a POLICE function, and yes there are evil people in the world, not a kumbaya thing, but this is not a hammer that will solve this.)

Anyhow, hubby did not agree or disagree, he just asked him, which of his two daughters was he willing to offer up for the cause? That conversation was dead.

My niece started going over how much we need to fight these wars... so I offered to drive her to the recruiter... these days if they move, they'll take them. And as I pointed out to her, as a newly minted College Graduate they will even make her an officer, which is scary at some levels... having had that responsibility myself.

For the record they are Democrats, before anybody says it. They also live in fly over country, where I encountered a level of fear about being attacked and shit that was alien. As I explained to my Sister in Law when she started with that shit... I live near a secondary target if we ever get another attack, which most likely we will, and the city up the freeway is a primary target... and if we talk nuclear war, I live in a first strike city... she remained silent for the rest of the afternoon. Then she asked me, you are not afraid? Well, I could, but why? If we get a nuke, will be fast and painless... and I cannot live my life watching my back. (Then again, I am a combat vet, of sorts. As a Red Cross Medic in Mexico I was in one too many shoot outs, for the record one is too many, and it was more than one... so I learned to control that fear)

Oh stupid spelling...

[Robeson]

7. That is a hell of a narative/story....

...thanks for responding!

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Oh you welcome

I wasn't going to go into calling the troops mercs, since they are not... and in this household we consider mercs scum... actually lower than scum.

But you are onto something, the most rabid support comes from those who do not need to worry about Joe Jr, or Jane Jr... answering the recruiter, as part of the poverty draft. And it don't matter if they are followers of one party of the other. Yes, it is a class issue... as well.

[Robeson]

12. I apologize if the mercenary comment came across wrong...

...I meant it in the historical sense. That is, someone who volunteers to be paid as a warrior.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. I understand but all militaries

have paid their soldiers across history. The pay an E-2, E-3 makes is well bellow the poverty level... they are NOT doing this for the pay, believe me. An operator for XE, could make upwards of a million dollars in three years, if he lives to collect. Trust me, they called after hubby retired. Oh hubby called them exactly what they are.

But he woudl have gone from 50K a year, with all beanies included to oh 30K a month... Now that is a mercenary.

[Robeson]

18. I understand, and again, I apologize.

[Oregone]

4. So, if there were a draft, that would help...how?

People would become politically frustrated and vote for the other guy bought off by the MIC? And...

All I see it would do is supply the Army with fodder for imperialistic wars. Yes, people might get pissed off...but we have iPODs now. Who really can be too down when we get to listen to Rhythm and Blues while on the elevator to work?

[Marr]

6. I think it would change the debate completely.

People don't care about wars, and potential wars, because they aren't touched by it. Remember how people talked about the invasion of Iraq when it was happening? It was 'good tv', and that's it. They talked like it was the Super Bowl.

[Robeson]

8. Thanks for your response...

...I appreciate you jumping in.

[Oregone]

9. Don't take me too seriously

Because I really don't have a clue what it would do in these current conditions. But I do like me some R&B on the iPOD

[Ishoutandscream2]

11. I always agreed with Dylan that he was a "song and dance man"

[brewens]

5. One where every Congressman's closest eligible aged relative

is immediately called up and assigned to a combat unit. Not gonna happen but that would straighten things out.

[pitohui]

13. i don't believe in slave labor, therefore i don't support the draft

this "madness of imperialism" whatever that means has occurred just as much when we DID have a draft, pretty sure we had a draft during the civil war, spanish american war, both world wars, and even in vietnam

do you have kids? are you under age 35? then i will grant you the right to argue for a draft, i'm well over any age anyone would draft so i'd be the hypocrite of all time to say, "sure, draft your ass and THEN we'll see an end to war"

there was a draft for most of human history, war and empire building went on just fine just the same

having a draft/not having a draft changes nothing as far as "imperialism" goes, can't people just look at history and see that? are people truly so without any knowledge of the past?

NOT having a draft is an advantage, maybe now everyone can't get away from war, but some people can get away -- you want to throw away something that helps some people sometimes in the garbage? for nothing? because wars of imperialism go on either way...close the internet and pick up a freaking history book if you're too young to remember we had vietnam AND the draft!!!

[Oregone]

15. "there was a draft for most of human history"

True that. OTOH, there wasn't an illusion of democracy and freedom during all that time. Its tough to reconcile the two sometimes

[Robeson]

17. Thanks for responding...

...actually, with mass media and massive civil disobedience, the draft had a great negative effect during Vietnam. So, I'm not sure your other examples match up with our most current draft time experience.

BTW, whether I have kids or not, is pointless to the conversation.

[pitohui]

21. vietnam lasted for 10 long years

we had draft riots during the civil war as well

you're kidding yourself to think the war ended early thanks to the draft, the war in vietnam was the longest lasting war in american history up to that time, AFAIK the only longer war was the war of the revolution...

if you have kids is VERY relevant, because if you don't have skin in the game, it's easy to argue for all kinds of shyte really...again, if you don't grok that, then i don't want to say "naive" but what other word is there for it?

having a draft doesn't end or shorten wars, it provides cannon fodder for those wars

five thousand years of history is prob. right and the invisible guy on the internet who thinks the draft a good thing is prob. just...naive or untutored etc.

[Robeson]

23. The sole reason we have a "volunteer" army...

...is due to the "Vietnam Experience". You need to brush up on your history.

[pitohui]

26. sigh

ok, you have decided for whatever reason the draft is good

nonetheless the draft is evil and those of us who resisted the draft and fought to get young men free of compulsory slavery were not wrong, evil people

you who are in favor of the draft are frankly ingrates, you know, you could enlist at any time if you really wish to serve

but that's not it, you want OTHERS to be forced slaves, just not yourself or your children

i'm done w. this discussion sheesh

[Robeson]

32. No I'm not. I wanted an open discussion here...

...of the positives, and negatives. A "give and take" as you will. A REAL discussion. Sometimes, I takes positions, which I actually may disagree with, because it may further a discussion. But, you can continue with your "slave" and "ingrates" talk all you want.

Carry on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. the Legions were draftees...

that will come as a surprise to most specialists, especially after the fall of the Roman Republic. England used draftees to take over oh Afghanistan? No... why we mistrusted PROFESSIONAL soldiers. The French Foreign Legion was a draftee force?

I could go on...

by the way Sparta was an all volunteer force and a warrior ethos that we have not seen since, while Athens was pretty much the same way, insofar as this was the duty of a citizen... that perhaps would be the closest to a draftee army... but hey what can I say?

You could make the argument that the medieval lord used draftees, but that was a social contract, and mostly they preferred to use Knights, or those who joined for front line duty, in fact by the renaissance we had Condotieri. These guys were PROFESSIONAL mercenary companies and the parallels to oh XE and company are just damn eerie.

Now before I am accused of a western centric bias, Japan had periods where you had rural levies, your draftees, but also periods, long periods, where the fighting was done by Samurai... China had the same. Oh and in the New World, the Warrior Caste of the Aztec Empire, for example, was a CASTE and a professional force, same for the Incas. and the Mixtec, and the Maya... et al.

The plains Indians, well everybody fought, but that is a nature of the society... so no, I could not say draftees have been the rule, and in fact in European history, they have not been the rule... and in the US there is this tension between the professional force, which has been feared since oh early on, read the Third Amendment for a hint why, and the duty of the citizen to carry all the obligations of a citizen, including defense (which you can argue this is not it) in a draftee force.

By the way, I guess you are also against all forms of compulsory anything that build any kind of citizenship... and yes I take exception to draftees being called slaves and could recommend a few textbooks in US history, but have learned over the years that Americans want all the beanies with non of the bother of citizenship... so why bother?

[pitohui]

25. yes i am against gang initiation

killing people in the name of "building citizenship" is evil, immoral, it's wrong, sorry

the draft is wrong, slave labor is of course in my humble opinion ALWAYS wrong, but it's esp. wrong and evil when the slave is forced to kill other slaves with which he has no quarrel merely because master sez so

i can't believe it's 2010 and someone on a progressive board is arguing in favor of the draft...and people think I'M a backwards hick because i eat a pork chop? for craps sake, i kill a pig, you are killing human beings who have hearts & brains even as your own

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. So is public school and jury duty by this logic

ALL public service of any kind is evil by this logic.

Look this is a CLASS ISSUE and as long as joe and jane of middle class to wealthy means don't have to worry, about their precious ones being sent o'er there, these wars will never end. Nobody cares when Joe, of poorville, is forced to go. We have a draft... it is a POVERTY draft... I'd like to expand our EXISTING DRAFT...

[Oregone]

33. Attending public school is performing service?

I thought it was the government providing a service to private industry; that being, producing a skilled workforce.

Oh, and screw jury duty.

[The Green Manalishi]

16. I still think an interesting idea is to only let vets vote.

Would immediately shift the electorate to include a very high percentage of non whites and non rich.
All of the original democracies and republics made citizenship conditional upon military service,
Opposition to it could make the chickenhawks look even more stupid and treasonous than they already are.
Fair, consistent.

[Rage for Order]

20. I'd prefer a form of Compulsory Service

No deferments, everyone serves 2 years minimum, from 18 - 20 years old.

[Oregone]

22. If a nation can't inspire your service...

they fail to deserve it.

[Rage for Order]

27. Not necessarily

Some people would prefer not to volunteer because they are afraid they will be 2 years (or more) behind all of their peers in their careers. If this is not a consideration then it removes a barrier to service.

On a positive note, requiring all 18 year old Americans to go through boot camp would do wonders for our so-called obesity epidemic.

[Elwood P Dowd]

24. I was drafted during Vietnam.

During my two years in the US Army, I never met a son of a rich person. Every single son of the rich and well connected I knew were in the National Guard or had serious high blood pressure problems.....That is, they had serious high blood pressure until about 1973, when it mysteriously cleared up for no apparent reason.

[Robeson]

28. Thanks Elwood. That is a key point - and problem - with the draft back then...

...you went, but the rich kids didn't. That, in itself, could be an OP.

[proteus_lives]

35. Do the rich kids go now?

Did they ever?

Is there any system where the wealthy can't work for their own benefit?

Because I sure can't think of one.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. I can think of two rich kids who served in Nam

Gore and Kerry...

As to today... it does happen, but not the usual thing. See Pat Tillman (RIP)

Officers at times do come from the middle class, but it used to be that they came from the upper middle class too, as well as the wealthy, see Kerry and Gore.

These days, it is lower middle class, to middle class... and many do it for the same reason enlisted join the ranks... they cannot afford that college that the ROTC scholarship will give them. This is why we have a draft, not popular to say, but we do... it is a poverty draft.

[pitohui]

30. yes of course these arguments "for" the draft are so dishonest

they know that they themselves will never be drafted, the OP refuses to state if he has children of draft age which suggests yah he doesn't, he doesn't have to fear his kids being drafted...

it's disgusting...


we spent all that time and energy getting it changed so folks are no longer drafted and forced to fight in stupid rich men's war for nothing, against their will...and then a certain segment gripes that OMG modern kids r wimps they should all be drafted to fight in foreign wars, like it or not, it'll toughen em up, blah de blah de blah

the 70s accomplish one good thing and it's still shit on

it makes you wonder why we try at all

there is no "draft" for the rich...any "draft" exists purely to fuck over the middle class and to cripple their kids

[Gaedel]

46. Vietnam was baby boomers

The draft pool was to large and so the govt made deferrments easy.

In the 1950s, we were the "empty years" kids born during the 1930s (and there were not too many of us).

The question in the fifties was not "if you would do service", it was "when and how you would do service".

ROTC units (most state colleges had two years of manditory ROTC) used to graduate hundreds of 2LTs per year per institution who then went on two years of active duty. If you didn't go into ROTC in colleges, you would often get a draft notice on graduation (great source of educated company clerks).

Lots of well-to-do and well educated people served.

Used to be a standard debate subject in 1950s high schools as to whether or not UMS (Universal Military Service) should be instituted.

[Adsos Letter]

29. Others have voiced similar thoughts in this thread, but I'll add mine anyway

I have thought for several years that instituting the Draft might mobilize a relatively unengaged public of moms/dads/siblings/etc. in paying some serious attention to the way our military is cared for/equipped/and utilized. if memory serves (and it may not) parental protest became a significant part of the protest against Vietnam as the war dragged on, piled up bodies, and appeared to be going nowhere.

I think military resistance to a Draft would have to be overcome; my understanding is that they have been agin' it...that may have changed with the current manpower needs.

EDIT: typo...and there are probably more.

[proteus_lives]

34. It is the simple truth.

You want to end the wars? Break the back of the merc companies?

Bring back the draft.

[Luminous Animal]

37. I already understand the concept of life and death for Iraqis, Afghanis, Pakistanis,

and Americans. Sacrifice your own kids if you feel you need to drive home a point but leave your hands off mine.

[OHdem10]

38. I have been yipping about this for at least ten years.

Sure there are a few members of Congress who have sons in the
Military; however, I am convinced War would be looked upon
in a much different way if each and everyone of them had
to consider sending their children.

For good measure, to be certain that enough serious thought
is given can we please have a WAR TAX to help pay for these
endless wars. It is understood--Start a war and raise taxes.
This tax can have an automatic sunset say one week passed the
declaration that war is ended.

Have a draft and a war tax.

[Selatius]

39. This isn't a functioning republic anymore. In any other democratic republic, it would be done.

In a democratic country that isn't run on a system of legalized bribery, the politicians would have a chance to make the sober decisions in rational fashion, such as raising taxes to pay for war. As it stands, the politicians are too occupied trying to ensure their cash flow from their financiers on Wall Street or wherever.

[cemaphonic]

40. People who advocate for the draft should join the armed services along with the chickenhawks.

If you're one of those who believes that military service creates civic virtue, that's a respectable argument (though one that I would disagree with), but one that is awfully weak coming from someone unwilling to join themselves. If you're just playing around with people's lives and livelihoods for a bit of political theater (as the OP seems to), screw that.

I think that with a huge pool of draftees, our military adventurism would be even more extreme, and that anyone who thinks that the rich and connected would serve in the same capacity as everyone else is more than a bit naive. Plus, military spending is a complete drain on our economy, except in the Keynesian sense - and there we'd be much better served building infrastructure and doing R&D and stuff like that. Then there is the utter waste of people's talents and interests. I have a friend who is a brilliant mathematician, who thanks to the French compulsory service, spent 2 years hanging around in a barracks of a token "occupation force" in Germany left over from WWII.

Now in a WWII style total war mobilization, a draft might be a reasonable idea, but I don't see that situation coming along anytime soon.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. You see many of us who advocate for it

been there, done that, got the T-shirt, and realize something you don't... WE ALREADY HAVE A DRAFT. It comes in two flavors, the POVERTY DRAFT and the BACKDOOR DRAFT... Google either of them.

I guess it is ok if Private unlucky goes to war because he was born and raised on poorville and nobody really gives a shit. I mean why care? His choices are the army, or best case... the local fast food stand, or the local drug selling...

[cemaphonic]

42. Those aren't drafts, except in a rhetorical sense.

As for Private Unlucky, does he gain any benefit out of military service other than a paycheck and maybe learning some job skills? Instead of making everyone go through that, why not spend the money to create New Deal-type work programs that would actually benefit the country and give him more options on the kind of work he would be doing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. This is the general attitude

that allows these wars to continue. Thank you for providing a perfect example of what those who have served in the modern military point to regularly, for the record my husband not me, I did it somebody else's. We don't care about private unlucky, as long as it is not my own blood. And why the hell should we care about SERVICE, whatever form it takes. One of these days public education will die... hold it, they are in the process of destroying that, and people will refuse to do jury duty too... NOT on my time!

Well, there is more to be learned than just a few skills, and national service, not necessarily in the military, should be a requirement of citizenship. There are a few intangibles that I cannot explain to you that are learned while in the service of your country, whether that is in the armed forces or some other form. And it goes much beyond jingoism... see why people didn't care about Katrina in many ways and the usual not in my back yard and I attitude is gonna byte us in the ass. Wait, it already is.

[Waiting For Everyman]

44. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. n/t

[Brother Buzz]

45. The late Colonel David Hackworth's view on draftees

"....Historically draftees have kept the military on the straight and narrow. By calling a spade a spade, they keep it clean. Without their "careers" to think about, they can't be easily bullied or intimidated as Regulars; their presence prevents the elitism that otherwise might allow a Regular army to become isolated from the values of the country it serves. Draftees are not concerned for the reputation of their employer, the Army (in Vietnam they happily blew the whistle an everything from phony valor awards to the secret bombings of Laos and Cambodia); a draftee, citizens' army, so much a part of the history of America, is an essential part of a healthy democracy, one in which everyone pays the price of admission." - Colonel David Hackworth