For clarity and curiousity RE: "Leftist"

[socialist_n_TN]

What do you PERSONALLY think of when you see this word? This is NOT meant to be a bait post. I don't care (and I'm sure nobody else does either) whether MY definition of "Leftist" coincides with yours. I'm just curious and I think it would help to discuss this, so we all could know where people are coming from when they use this term.

My definition is VERY old school and traditional. When I think "Leftist" I think early Twentieth Century Socialist, Communists, Trade Unionists, etc. Although I became politically aware during the New Left era in the 60s and early 70s, that's not really ALL I think about when I hear or use the word "Leftist" although the New Left IS a part of it. I guess it could be summed up as "anti capitalist" to one degree or another.

Labels do get in the way sometimes of positions and positions are more important than labels, but we all use the labels. So what does YOUR "label" for Leftist mean?

[msongs]

1. what used to be called centrist dems in the old days before the party shift to the right lol

[Mimosa]

9. So true!

I'm a classical liberal, myself. But I get called leftist by rightwingers.

[Luminous Animal]

15. Actually, what Republicans used it to label centrist Dems in an attempt to

ally them with socialists and communists. Somewhere along the line, Dems ran to the center to disassociate themselves from those scary leftists and then ran even further to escape the "liberal" label. Now, presumably, we are all progressives. A word with no modern U.S. political meaning at all. Teabaggers have a stronger political ideology than progressives. Teabaggers may stand for shit but, at least they stand for something.

[laughingliberal]

2. My definition is, largely, that of the left of the 60's & 70's

I believe in protections for workers, help for the poor and elderly, equal rights for all Americans, strong regulation on business, and the maximum amount of personal freedom practical in society. I want the government protecting us from the excesses of corporate power and staying out of our bedrooms and doctor's offices.

[alcibiades_mystery]

3. I love it, and think it's much better than the weak "progressive"

Indeed, I can barely respect anyone who runs around calling him or herself a "progressive." I'm a leftist, period.

[denverbill]

6. That's funny because I consider 'leftist' derogatory.

'Anarchist', 'terrorist', 'marxist' 'leninist'. Notice there is no 'rightist'? There is a 'centrist' though, fwiw.

I don't describe myself as a leftist. I'd prefer liberal or progressive. And I use the old time definition of liberal/conservative, which is constant over time. Liberals support change, conservatives oppose change, radicals support radical change, reactionaries want to reverse changes already in place.

90% of today's self-described conservatives are actually reactionaries who want to undo the last 150 years of progress in civil rights, worker rights, progressive taxation, etc. DLC'ers are mostly conservatives who want to protect the status quo. That leaves us liberals who support fundamental change hanging out here without a party on the left.

But using the traditional definitions of liberal/conservative is the only way to make them understandable. A liberal in 1776 might have easily supported an elected King for the US, while no American conservative in his right mind would support much less than representative democracy. Of course, there are still some reactionaries that want to return to an absolute monarch, but they are the far-right crazies.

What liberals believe today could become conservative dogma tomorrow.

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. Oh

I'm a leftist because I'm NOT a liberal. I have no doubt that a liberal would find it "derogatory," since it's a decidedly *not* liberal orientation. I don't have much interest in liberals - or worse, "progressives" (at least liberals have the courage to call themselves what they are). I'm a leftist.

[Luminous Animal]

17. Yep. I'm an old school labor leftist. I'm an old school civil rights leftist.

I'm an old school feminist leftist.

[socialist_n_TN]

31. So you probably know that the socialists

were the FIRST feminists. The heroes of the Left in the early part of the last century included a LOT of women, equal with men! :)

[socialist_n_TN]

12. OK that's fine, but it SEEMS like

a LOT of people who would NOT have been considered a "leftist" in the 30s, all of the sudden claim the label. Why IS that?

I believe in an absolute (or maybe a meta) version of the political labels when they're used at all. In most cases the left will range from traditional liberals (probably the most right of the left) all the way to Communists. There's also a place in discussion for a more relative scale based on the country and decade, BUT...., the problem as I see it is that if you're a little to the right of the Nazis you can call yourself a "leftist" when you get into relativism. It would all depend on where you put the center.

Maybe labels are foolish after all. Positions on issues are all that matters when it gets down to it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. Pigeon holes are for pigeons. But, here's a couple of what I consider definitions that I like.

"Freedom is the absolute right of all adult men and women to seek permission for their actions only from their own conscience and reason, and to be determined in their actions only by their own will, and consequently to be responsible only to themselves, and then to the society to which they belong, but only insofar as they have made a free decision to belong to it." Mikhail Bakunin

“A society is only a democracy when no-one is so rich they can buy someone, an no-one so poor that they need sell themselves.” Jean Jacque Rousseau

[Catherina]

5. Socialists, Communists trying to create a creating a more egalitarian society. n/t

[YOY]

7. I'd tell you what is and what isn't using examples but it would be deleted.

n.t.

[kenny blankenship]

8. Left:

a point of view hostile to or deeply skeptical of the claims of capitalism to be the the best possible or only possible arrangement of human society. Leftist: one who holds this point of view.

Of course this definition turns on the definition of capitalism. Without plunging into those murky waters, I'll just say that I am deeply, deeply skeptical of the claim that capitalism works to the benefit of human society. Increasingly it looks like it will not be content with just doing away with society but with the human as well. Capitalism has long been the most caustic of all isms to human society, burning away multiple dimensions of organic relationships between people and their kinship groups, their communities, and nature, and replacing all these bonds with the singular relation of cash in exchange for obedience. In the long run, I fear capitalism may well make any human society impossible through its relentless degradation of nature. Of course, some of capitalism's most outspoken proponents have gone so far as to say that there is "No such thing as society." They see capitalism as a literal Law of Nature - the only part of nature, you'll notice, that they ever give one goddamn about. They admit the existence only of individual human beings, acting only in their individual interest, with an unconditional "natural right" as individuals to seize and create as much wealth as they can for themselves and their progeny, without any consideration of larger units of human organization, which they think are fantasies. Since Society is a fanatasy in their view, a term of art employed to cover theft, capitalism does not have to justify itself or prove itself useful in any way to "Society". Less truculent capitalist exponents, called neoliberals, make a slight nod to the existence of society by saying that all profit seeking enterprise of individuals works to the eventual benefit of society, and that's as far as that one needs to think or plan for society's supposed "needs". However, even when confronted with contradictory evidence like the Great Financial Meltdown, brought on by system-wide fraud measuring in the trillions, they have never furnished the proof of this belief, nor even acted as though one ought to be provided. Capitalism is. Where is its replacement? they smirk. Capitalism rules, therefore it is beneficial, and everyone who matters thinks so. It is simply to be accepted on faith. (That's the kind of terminal arrogance that will explode itself with an Earth shattering KaBoooM!) Therefore, I think anyone paying attention should be, by now,at least a little skeptical about the claims of capitalism.

[Skelly]

11. Depends on who is using it

When someone is accused of being a leftist, it is a slur, and basically means the accuser is anti everything the accused supports.
When someone self proclaims being a 'leftist', it can mean many things (as you said). *MY* point of view is that of a person (me) who grew up in the late 60's and 70's (too young to participate in the 60's, old enough to WANT to). So, immediately coming to mind (without the filters of adulthood) are socialist and communists out to destroy our way of life. LOL...thank gawd some of us DO grow up to question what we were taught.

[socialist_n_TN]

13. Is that first paragraph really true

at least here on DU? I see people who's positions are NOT the classic definition of "Left" calling themselves "leftist". Has the word lost it's derogatory meaning? Is that progress?

[G_j]

18. It started with Reagan sound bites and jokes about the "L word"

and the damn media/culture, whatever.., bought it, and sold it to many Americans. It hasn't changed much since.

What he was doing was saying that fascism is good, but very few got it.

[socialist_n_TN]

30. "What he was doing was saying that fascism was good...."

Yes he was! Thank you for that! I had never thought of it like that before, but that's EXACTLY what he was doing.

[Skelly]

20. You are asking me?

Has the word lost its derogatory meaning? I would hope so. Unfortunately, I am not sure that is true. The poster asked our own opinions. I was giving an honest answer. But, I would, in my most humble opinion, venture to say that if it HAS lost its derogatory meaning, that IS progress.

[socialist_n_TN]

22. Yep, I was asking you!

:) I was wondering mostly about the posters here on DU. As I said in another post, there are people with views that would NOT fit the classic, 30s version of "leftist" who seem to be claiming the mantle. I guess it is progress.

Next to take the RW hocus off of "socialist"!

[Skelly]

27. I do not have the knowledge base

to argue political/economical philosophies. So, I basically ask questions. "Have you ever checked out a book from a public library"? "Called the police or fire department"? "Driven on a highway"? "Who owns the means to their production"?
Labels can be off putting. I know most do not like them, but use them anyway. I could not take it upon myself to 'correct' anyone's self labeling. I am not in their head to understand the framework they use to decide their own label. When someone tells me they are a "_________", I have to ask them, "What does that mean to you"? to understand their point of view.
So, what was the classic, 30's version of a 'leftist'?

[socialist_n_TN]

29. "So, what was the classic 30s version of a "leftist"

Well I tried to answer that in the OP. It's really hard to boil down to a small phrase or word, but the CLOSEST in my mind would BE "anti-capitalist" to varying extents depending on the "leftist".

In the 30s the labor movement was MILITANTLY anti-capitalist because they had seen what unfettered capitalism does TO the working class. Even in the late 60 and early 70s I PERSONALLY had experience with the bosses (representing the capitalists) as a Boilermaker Shop Steward. Capitalists care NOTHING for workers, except for how much they can overwork you. You could die (and people DID die through Managerial neglect) and they wouldn't give a rat's ass, except as to how it affected their bottom line. That's why I get REALLY ticked when I see DEMOCRATS toe the corporate line. I would think that ANY Dem, no matter HOW corporate they were, would at least pay lip service to the working class and NOT denigrate people who stand WITH the working class. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

[G_j]

14. anti capitalist

I like the 'old' term too.

[KonaKane]

16. It's all here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8616494

[noamnety]

19. My definition is a little less academic than some others.

Someone whose face lights up when they hear the name Howard Zinn, Ann Wright, the word wobblies, or sees someone sporting a VVAW emblem.

[socialist_n_TN]

21. Sounds old school to me!

:)

[leftstreet]

23. Proposing radical economic and social change that results in equality

How radical the change would depend on the economic and social climate of the culture you're looking at

[Starry Messenger]

24. Anti-capitialist.

Pro-union and anti-privatization. Pro-worker and anti-ruling class. Not an defender of corporations or their practices. Someone who believes that "pragmatism" is a euphemism for rear-guard fighting by the foot soldiers for the ownership class.

[inna]

25. Pro-working class. I like your definition, Leftist = Anti-Capitalist.

What's important is that in the US all discussion of class struggle has been systematically suppressed.

[readmoreoften]

26. Socialist, communist, syndicalists, and the various organized segments of the New Left

such as May '68 and the anti-Stalinist uprisings of 1989. Social-Democratic trade unionists and the Green Party are the moderate wing of this tendency.
Anyone who supports neoliberal policy is simply not a leftist.

[TexasObserver]

28. To me, the term "leftist" is used by people who mean it negatively.

It's like using the word "Negro" for black people.

It's like using the term "gay agenda."

Its usage is usually negative, and is intended to further diminish those who are liberal or progressive.

[socialist_n_TN]

32. Being in a red state like Tennessee

I can see where you're coming from. Around here it's used negatively too by most people. But I think that the capitalists have demonized the word (like they demonized "liberal") because they were afraid of it. A leftist of my ilk is a nightmare for capitalists because a leftist like me makes no PRETENSE of adoring capitalism or even supporting it. There's no "Capitalism is GREAT if it's regulated" or "It's just a few bad apples who've destroyed the economy, it's not the system." I'm going to say, "Bullshit! It IS the system!" without ANY equivocation.

A capitalist doesn't WANT a Leftist to speak because they know that our POLICIES are better for 98% (or more) of the general population. And that idea just MIGHT catch on with the proles.

That's why I'm PROUD to be called a Leftist. I just hope I can live up to it.