WTF? Letter from my son's Elementary School. Bibles will be handed out on Friday.

[Beausoir]

Some guy from Gideon will be allowed to stand outside the school and approach children and give them bibles.

This is a public school. This is just...so weird.

Anyone else have this happen at their public school?

[3waygeek]

1. Happened to me in grade school

back in the early 70s, except they came into the school building.

[ingac70]

6. Same here, but in early '80's.

:puke:

[Art_from_Ark]

95. Same here-- November 1969

The Gideons came to my elementary school and handed out little New Testaments in class.

Fast forward a few years-- half of the the kids from my elementary school class, now in high school, were either drunk or stoned on the weekends and getting into various types of trouble. Not a lot of Bible thumping going on at my high school, that's for sure.

Unless the kids have fundie parents, they're just going to take their Bibles home and forget about them.

[Ilsa]

215. Exactly. You can't religiously persuade someone who isn't up for it, unless

you are using threats or scare tactics ("you're going to hell," the devil, etc.)

[windy252]

387. I think even threats sometimes don't work.

After someone grows up and starts thinking about "going to hell," they might discard the religion entirely.

[goddess40]

290. me too, I took one and tore it up on the way home

I was an atheist way back then - and I thought they had no right to be shoving that crap at us at school.

[Blue_Tires]

173. me too, in '87 or '88

it was a nice little red bible...sadly my dog ate it, as she ate just about everything else that wasn't nailed down

[youngdem]

2. Go hand out Korans. I bet the policy gets reversed.

Make hate work FOR you.

[ingac70]

4. Better yet, Satanic Bibles!

:evilgrin:

[Madspirit]

27. Yes! Hand out the Koran.

It will be stopped immediately. What a load of crap this is. Man I hate fundie religionists.
Lee

[Sequoia]

204. The Book of Morman

[Initech]

37. Or how about the doctrine of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

:popcorn:

[lonestarnot]

52. Or Jonathan Livingston Seagull

[proud patriot]

115. That's a great book

I'd hand out anything by Richard Bach but especially
"Illusions" or "Jonathan Livingston Seagull"

[GreenPartyVoter]

214. Yeah, Jonathan seems more geared to this age group

:)

[boobooday]

360. My dad gave that to me when I was eleven

I read it, enjoyed it, but sadly disappointed him when he asked me what it was about. He waited, with baited breath, to hear how I would convey the existential message of JLS. "Well, what did you think? What do you think it was about?"

I told him it was about a seagull.

He still loves to remind me of that one.

[Kazak]

227. The Book of the Sub-Genius?

:shrug:

[JNelson6563]

146. Wish I could recommend a reply

Perfect answer. :toast:

[LSK]

171. yes, great reply!!!!

K&R the reply!

[donco6]

193. There is no policy.

This is a group exercising its constitutional rights. It happens to be handing out Bibles on public property. Been happening for many decades. They know what they can and can't do. The school can do absolutely nothing about it (except send home a letter warning parents that it's going to happen, which they did.)

[sybylla]

205. Wrong - schools have the right to restrict access to school property at any time

It may be public property, but a school has powers to restrict access in the name of protecting children and their learning environment. They can even prevent parents from coming onto school property if that parent has been a problem.

Schools have loads of rights when it comes to school property during school hours/activities (at least in my state). Some schools just don't choose to use them.

on edit - title clarification and spelling

[MonkeyFunk]

212. Correct

but he's not on school property. School's cannot control the public sidewalks nearby.

[donco6]

213. What part of "public property" is unclear?

School property is not public property. If he's on school property, yes, there's a problem. That's not the case here.

[RobinA]

228. But Why Would They?

As long as the ACLU has a similar right to hand out info, what's the big deal? Public property - speech - free. Hell, and I'm an atheist.

[Ilsa]

216. Call your local Mormon temple, mosque, synagogue, etc and tell them

it is religious book give-away day on school property.

That'll teach them.

[TexasLawyer]

353. Brilliant!

And how about some Scientology tracts too, just to make the point.

[etherealtruth]

3. No ... nothing close ...never ...

I can't even imagine this being tolerated.

Where do you live, Beausoir? In an area where this type of thing is OK ... or did some one over step boundaries?

[Beausoir]

12. North Central Minnesota! I feel like I'm in Kansas all of the sudden. n/t

[Selatius]

5. Nice. They made a point of being off school grounds to hand them out.

Otherwise, they would've been violating church/state separation.

[Crazy8s]

7. Not since the late 50s

when I was in school. I remember being given a small red book of the New Testament when I was in first grade. I also remember having to recite the 23rd psalm every day after pledging to the flag.

[undeterred]

8. Ask if you can hand out condoms with pagan symbols.

Off school grounds, of course.

[in_cog_ni_to]

9. HE CANNOT BE ON SCHOOL PROPERTY! I went through this shit a few years ago and called the police

I was told as long as they were on the PUBLIC SIDEWALK and NOT on school property, there was nothing the police could do. They were on the sidewalk outside the school..beyond the school property.:(

Go to the school and make sure he's not on school property!

[Beausoir]

11. He will be on the sidewalk. I think I'll hang around and take lots and lots of photos of this guy.

[in_cog_ni_to]

Yes, do that. I would make my camera VERY OBVIOUS.

I REALLY detest this crap. Why can't they just hand out their Bibles at CHURCH?:grr:

[onenote]

190. I may not like it, but I defend their right to do so

Just as I would defend the right of someone to stand outside school grounds and hand out pamphlets on ateheism. And I'd be pissed as hell if someone was taking pictures of the person handing out those pamphlets, wouldn't you?

[Bigmack]

280. Careful with the camera...

You'll be taking pics of the kids, too.

When I was teaching, that was one of my special personal projects. NOBODY takes pics of (my) kids! Who knows who is taking them, and what they're doing with them.

Taking pics of kids is an invasion of their privacy, and some asshole like me might object.

[CreekDog]

293. If we do it in public, you freak out and that's very entertaining

...With all the flailing, the spitting and the frothing.

You really need to calm down a little on this.

[Maraya1969]

196. Maybe burn some incense or sweet sage just to freak him out.

[Ilsa]

217. Our high school had some guy handing out anti-choice literature across

the street. He also had the gruesome posters. The parents hated him for it and so he quit, for now.

[shenmue]

23. Good for you.

At least someone still reads the Constitution.

[EFerrari]

91. But, isn't that still like stalking the kids? How creepy. n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

160. I thought so! I even mentioned that to the policeman I was talking to and he said

they had a right to be there and they 'keep an eye' on them while they are there. I told him one of my concerns was the access they had to the children and not knowing if they were child molesters or not. He said, "We don't know if they are child molesters and I understand your concern, BUT all we can do is watch them because they have a LEGAL RIGHT to be there".:(

[Tesha]

176. The experiment to conduct, of course, is to stand there the next day...

> "...BUT all we can do is watch them because they have
> a LEGAL RIGHT to be there"

Well, not if they're a child molester who has been ordered
to keep so many feet away from children, schools, etc.

But putting that aside...

The experiment to conduct, of course, is for you to stand
there the next day handing out those Qurans that folks up-
thread mentioned. Or anti-war or anti-Bush pamphlets.

Note how the police treat you and see if it is the same
as the way they treated the Gideon.

(I'm not saying it *WILL* be different, but it sure would
be interestibg (and legally actionable) if it *IS* different,
because you have exactly the same rights as the Gideon has.

Tesha

[tblue]

10. What -- the motels aren't buying enough so they have to give 'em away?

[Art_from_Ark]

105. The Gideons have been giving away Bibles for decades

if not longer.

As far as I know, they never sell Bibles.

[tblue]

137. Shows how much I know, huh? Anyway, they should save a tree already and let the school children be

[Art_from_Ark]

139. I can see your point

But I can also remember when the Gideons actually came inside my elementary school classroom and handed out New Testaments. It was no big deal, and there was no proselytizing. And the next day, and thereafter, there never was any mention of them in school. Except at recess, where some of the boys were complaining that there weren't any "good parts" in the New testament (like in the Old Testament where David saw Bathsheeba naked in the bath, and Lot's daughters got to "know" their father).

[Nicole]

108. Motels don't buy them, they get them free too.

They have always given 'em away.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

13. Now, where I live, if a school district allowed this, it would at least make the local news.

Give your local news outlet a heads up, I'd say. MKJ

[donco6]

195. There's nothing a school can do about it.

If they're on public property, they're exercising their constitutional rights. The school has no say in it at all.

[Ishoutandscream2]

14. Yes, at the school I work at

A few years ago, they stood where the cars exited the parking lot after school and handed them to the drivers.

Last year, they set up a table in the front foyer and left a large pile of little Bibles on it. None of the old men were there (every Gideon I've seen is usually an older white guy) so as not to proselytize (I suppose).

They went to the high school and did the same thing. However, they decorated the table in school colors. Someone complained to a local tv station, and a film crew and reporter came up and interviewed students and school board members. Since this has happened, they haven't showed up in our district. Hope everyone, including our school board and superintendent, got the message.

[mike_c]

15. call the ACLU-- by sending the letter home, the school is participating...

...in the distribution of bibles. Did they give you an opportunity to request that your child not be harrassed by religious zealots? Did they express disapproval for the use of school property, even indirectly, as a means of funneling children through a bible distribution network?

I suspect that school personnel are working with the christians to coordinate their activities. Call the ACLU.

[etherealtruth]

24. I thought that at first as well ....

Could it be that the school was "informing" parents that this was going to occur? ... If it happens off school property and the police can't stop the bible hander outers ... is it possible that the school was "warning" parents? i could actually envision that happening in our school district.

[Beausoir]

32. This is actually the way I read the letter...more as a warning to parents that this was going to

happen. They said it happens every year at every school in the district. (Although, my son is in 4th grade and this is the first letter I've received on it.) I don't think the district can stop this.

[etherealtruth]

39. That makes sense ...

... and is a good decision by the school. I am sure they are as thrilled as you are with the thought of strangers hanging out by the school and handing things out to young children ... be it bibles, condoms, puppies or "whatever"

[TankLV]

140. I like puppies - can I have a puppy instead?!

[Gormy Cuss]

96. So how are you instructing your son to handle it?

Never had this come up when I was in school but whenever there was a special notification of an event or appearance my mother would give us a talk about how to comport ourselves. If someone tried to give us a Bible I'm guessing that she would have told us to decline politely.

Thank God you have notice and can choose how to react -- much better than your boy getting confused by it.

[Beausoir]

109. I told him it was up to him. He can accept the Bible or he can choose not to.

He said "we already have bibles at home."

[Ishoutandscream2]

33. Mike, probably not school personnel

I would wager conservative school board members.

When the Gideons were handing out Bibles to people driving off campus a few years ago, I informed my building principal and asked what we should do. He simply shook his head in a resigned manner. I'm sure he was informed by our superintendent to allow this, and the super probably got his marching orders from a school board member or members.

[havocmom]

151. Yep, likely, school board members are at the root

People, if you have the time and the stomach for it, RUN FOR YOUR LOCAL SCHOOL BOARD! That is the place too much shit goes on and where the RW really gets their fangs in the communities jugular.

Sometimes, all it takes is one member who voices concerns about actions violating separation of church/state to get the community to sit up and notice the shit that is going on. You might be amazed at how much support a dissenting board member can get if they shine a bit of light on fundies using school board positions to indoctrinate children into their personal cult beliefs.

Fundie wingers get away with too much because most voters don't pay attention to school boards. We would do well to NEVER forget these elected positions and get good liberals who defend the US Constitution into school boards.

The policies of indoctrination get hold in local boards. Kids need to be protected from the abuse of those who set policy.

Look into your local school boards and see who is making the decisions about children's education. It is damned important.

[DearAbby]

50. Yep, that flyer announcing this will be what catches them

had they not done this, I dont believe there would be a case. Since it is off School property..by announcing it, same as supporting it...a no no.

[orleans]

120. i couldn't get the aclu to help me with shit when my kid was in high school

they seem preoccupied with more national issues imo

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

172. Sounds more like a warning.

To let people know there'll be a suspicious guy just off campus interacting with kids as they leave school.

[iverglas]

380. >>>> allow me to agree with you

Not for the first time, of course.

Knee-jerk suspicion, especially of public authorities (because that's who are especially targeted by knee-jerk suspicion), drives me insane.

Two possible explanations of the letter:

- complicity in subjecting vulnerable schoolchildren to religious proselitization

- a desire to alert parents to the fact that a stranger will be approaching their children on public property outside their school

Well, let's just go for the one that imputes evil intent to the authorities, eh? Let's not ever consider the possibility that school personnel and authorities have the children's and parents' interests in mind and at heart, and possibly even thank them for doing their job extra well.

[donco6]

188. I seriously doubt it.

If they DON'T inform the parents, they get really upset that no one told them about it. And they usually stand just outside school property (around here anyway). Happens every year.

[wildhorses]

16. no offense

but you guys sound a lot like some fundy book burners:scared:

:hide:









:yoiks:

[Beausoir]

19. I just don't like people approaching my children and shoving a bible in their face at school.

That's what CHURCH is for. Not a public school.

[wildhorses]

29. shoving a bible in their face??

puhleeeze...post the picture....

books is books

and the bible has some good fairy tales:P

[in_cog_ni_to]

40. It IS shoving the Bible in their faces. Did those kids ASK that man to stand on the sidewalk and

shove a Bible in their faces? NO. They're taking advantage of the vulnerable and preying on the innocent. It's insidious. It's the churches inching their way into our schools. PERIOD.

[hfojvt]

184. you left out the 'back'

They did this when I was in High School in the 1970s. Ruined all our lives, of course, but the world kept turning.

From "The Oxford Companion to the SCOTUS"

"From the time public education began to spread in the 1820s and 1830s until after WWII, most public elementary and secondary schools in America included daily Bible reading and prayer."

also,

"By contrast, when religious activity in public schools results from choices by students, parents, or other private individuals, the Court has repeatedly held that the activity can or even must be permitted....Thus, in cases about access to facilities, the Court treats religious and secular viewpoints as alternatives, and equal access for religion as the neutral course - not merely permitted, but required."

[CreekDog]

291. Shoving bibles and preying on the vulnerable

The eyewitness to the event said that those things didn't happen.

Or did you by chance, mistake the word "shoving" for "offering"?

And did you by chance, mistake the phrase "preying on the vulnerable" for "offering bibles".

Not to be persnickity, but I think you used the incorrect words to describe what actually happened.

And I'm just offering my opinion. If you don't like it, you are free to offer it too.

[in_cog_ni_to]

347. I really don't care what your opinion is. You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own

facts.

I see it as shoving Bibles in their faces for the mere fact they're THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE and there are many, many, many other places they could go to hand out Bibles...instead of a school. It's preying on children whether you want to believe that or not and I really don't give a rats ass what you believe or think..

Thanks for your permission for me to offer my opinion!:eyes:

[Crunchy Frog]

82. The Bible has lots of sex and extreme violence in it

that is totally inappropriate for children. I suppose the next thing you'll want is for people to hand out porn to kids. (If I ever have any kids, remind me to keep them away from you.)

[donco6]

197. That's why you got the letter. n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

25. WHY? Churches are for RELIGION, schools ARE NOT! WTF are churches for?

They have no business preying on children as they leave school. It's ridiculous. If I wanted my son to have one of their Bibles, I'd take him to their CHURCH.

WANTING THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE IS NOT ADVOCATING BOOK BURNING.

[wildhorses]

34. as a student i want to learn about everything

including religion and theology

that story about the burning bush...trippy MAN:hippie:


i just think we have PEOPLE DYING somewhere....over there

where is it again?

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. This is a VERY IMPORTANT issue for our country. It's in our CONSTITUTION

there will be a separation of church and state. I NEVER take these people and what they do lightly. They will never stop trying to turn our PUBLIC SCHOOLS into religious schools. They must be fought every time they try to pull this crap.

No one said you can't learn the Bible! No one said you can't study religion and theology.... Learn it at HOME or go to CHURCH...but, PLEASE, stay away from my son's school. He's not there for religion. He has his own religion.

[Crunchy Frog]

84. Don't you have libraries you can go to?

:shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

124. Yeah, well, proseltyze your own fucking kids on your own fucking time.

"Man".

[Bluebear]

294. Indeed.

[Crunchy Frog]

79. It's not right for you to try to indoctrinate somebody else's kids

with your religious doctrine. If holding that opinion makes me a fundy bookburner, then I proudly accept that mantle.

I wouldn't try to shove copies of the Humanist Manifesto into the hands of kids as they were coming out of Sunday school. For me that's just a basic tenet of human decency and respect for others. In your mind, I guess it makes me some sort of frothing at the mouth fundy. :shrug:

[JerseygirlCT]

87. Are you really comfortable with elementary school aged

children being prozelytized to without their parents' consent?

The Gideon guys can stand on the street corner all day and night and do their schpiel as far as I'm concerned. But handing out bibles to little kids? That's just not cool.

[Warren DeMontague]

122. So, since I assume you're completely consistent and not hypocritical, you would have NO PROBLEM

with people standing on the street and handing out ANY literature to other people's grade school age kids?

You know, The Koran, Lynn Cheney's Lesbian Romance Novel, The Illuminatus Trilogy, Origin of Species, Naked Lunch, that sort of thing...

[RobinA]

229. Fine By Me

free speech - public property - Bibles, Korans, Magna Carta, Upanishads, McDonalds coupons... Hell, I find half the crap the preach INSIDE the school more objectionable than this stuff.

[sandnsea]

132. Not until I rip 'em out of the pews!!!

I don't hand leaflets out to their kids in front of their church.

[Beelzebud]

194. So then I take it you wouldn't mind someone giving your kid a Satanic Bible?

[HeeBGBz]

17. We got em in grade school

Somewhere around 5th or 6th grade.

[Greyhound]

18. Do you live in FL or TX, or is the insanity spreading? n/t

[Beausoir]

21. Minnesota. It is spreading.

[in_cog_ni_to]

31. and I'm in Illinois....it happens here too.

:grr:

[Greyhound]

36. Now you've really depressed me. Think I'll have a shot and step away from the laptop. n/t

[LWolf]

20. It hasn't happened at any of my schools, but

it has been discussed. It was planned a few years back at a school where I was teaching.

There were some fiery board meetings. The issue was the gray area of what happens off of school campus. When students stepped off campus, they were perceived to be fair game. No longer under the school's jurisdiction. So next, the argument was about how far away from the school gates the people had to stay, and if they should be allowed to approach minors.

In the end, the agenda died because we had so few kids who actually walked to school. They were either on a school bus, picked up by parents, or lived in the neighborhood on the other side of the school fence, which only had one road in and one road out. That road was patrolled after school to manage traffic. I don't think they wanted to place people at every bus stop.

The gray area is a tangle of free speech, public property, and parents' and kids' rights. In the case I worked in, those who wanted to hand out bibles, and those in opposition, were equally determined to challenge on legal grounds. It never played out in court, because there were hardly any kids walking off of school grounds, anyway.

[shenmue]

22. Oh, great. The Gideons. Nobody asked them...

People can go to church any time they want. Nobody is being deprived of anything by going to public school.

If you want your kids to learn religion, take them to church. A publicly funded place is not where they should do their soliciting.

They already annoy the daylights out of everybody by sticking Bibles in hotel rooms. Did anybody ask me if I want that?

A school is not obligated to provide space for churches to do their business. Nobody is prevented from practicing a religion on their own time in this country. A school is not obligated to provide space or opportunity to do it for you.

[Parche]

26. Bibles

So they are handing out 'fantasy' books???


If they do it across the grounds, and not on school property, then that is ok
if they do that on school grounds, then you can call the local authorities, or the ACLU
and fight them.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. Ehhhhh, No Biggie Really. He's On Public Property And They Notified The Parents, So I See No Harm.

If they were forcing the kids to sit through some bible class that's a different story. But notifying parents that someone will be handing out bibles on public property with good intention, I can't find any legitimate reason for objection. The parents can easily tell their children in advance to not approach the person, say simply no thank you, or even to take one and say thank you or whatever. Just totally harmless imho.

[Warren DeMontague]

136. Really? So you're okay with strangers sitting outside your kids' school

striking up conversations with them, giving them "gifts", handing out literature. School age kids.

No problem, right? I mean, when weirdos approach little kids they don't know on their way home from school, no reason to call the cops..

...right?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

163. The devil is in the details

He has to stand outside a certain perimeter to be in the clear. Also, if the aforementioned letter was sent BY a school official, it's already involvement and they can be nailed.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

206. He Is Standing Outside A Certain Perimeter And There Was Nothing Wrong With The Letter.

So therefore, your 'devil' is non-existent.

[Marnieworld]

175. Totally harmless? Really?

Obviously you can see that many people here feel that attempting to indoctrinate, unsolicited, other people's children into a religion is not a "good intention." Some definitely see harm in mixing religion and the public school system. It is such a slippery slope of what is acceptable that the only way to maintain an equal fairness to all philosophies is to remove all of them from certain areas of public discourse. When one view is favored over another, even if it is the majority's view, those who are different suffer. There can be opportunities for explicit exclusion based on faith either from a child's peers or perhaps from a teacher that observes a child turning down a bible. It can be a religious test and our Constitution is explicitly against religious tests.

I remember as a child being forced to participate in daily "moments of silence" for a few months in the 6th grade. I had no religion really, other than childhood church visits on Christmas and Easter, and I had no concept of god. I as a 12 year old didn't really have a personal motivation to meditate at that moment either but it was chosen for me nonetheless. I do remember in those "moments" feeling very alienated, different, and the need to hide my difference. It was an official rejection of me, one who has no prayer to speak of, an implicit instruction of how I should be vs. how I truly was. Was I seriously harmed by this? Probably not in fact it was just the beginning of a lifetime os receiving this message. But I still don't think that that sort of thing should be part of a publically funded curriculum. It serves no purpose other than to make the condoning of prayer official and the opposite disapproved of. It creates division and I don't see how that is healthy for a school or a society.

When you also take into consideration the myriad of sources that document the most serious intentions of the End Timers and Reconstructionists, to reshape American law according to their values, according to Biblical law, any attempt to indoctrinate must be met with suspicion and resistance. Many of these people do not have "good intentions" at all for non-Christians. They have major agendas that they are trying to fulfill. It's not clear if these Gideons in this case is any way connected to that but because of this many people are in general defensive about any proselytizing. Adding the aspect of the vulnerability of children to it, sure you can instruct them what to say or do, but why should children have to be confronted like this?

The only people that should give bibles to children should be their parents. It's a personal family decision. To give a bible to a child that hasn't one says that there are wrong, their family is wrong. How is that approach about education?

[CreekDog]

202. Handing out the bible is neither indoctrination nor a pathway to it

Jeepers Creepers.

If they read the bible, they may be a Christian, they may become one, or who knows what.

The bible doesn't determine what denomination one goes to and could lead them, or not, to churches that are very open and non dogmatic or churches that are very closed and very dogmatic or any point in between.

Ultimately it is that person's choice on where they go. As far as I know, no book "indoctrinates" you, especially when what you do with that book leaves you as many choices as before you ever got it.

[Marnieworld]

203. then what would be their intention if not to have them be Christians?

From the Gideon's website:

"The Gideons International serves as an extended missionary arm of the church: Our sole purpose is to win men, women, boys and girls to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ through association for service, personal testimony, and distributing the Bible in the human traffic lanes and streams of everyday life."

Not an indoctrination but a winning of people to "a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ"? Tomato tomatah.


I'm not saying that they would whisk them away and brainwash them. I'm saying that it isn't the role of strangers to introduce anything this personal to children. Of course it's just a "book" and it's a pretty known book that everyone eventually hears about it with or without the Gideons. It's the organized effort to target children that is objectionable. You write about the person's choice but the story here is that the children and parents aren't choosing it, it is being chosen for them by strangers not the people who should decide these things- the parents.

[CreekDog]

222. Then you shouldn't have said what you said

After all, you said you didn't mean that the children would be "whisked away and brainwashed" referring to your first post which stated that they would be "indoctrinated". I'm not sure there's a substantive difference.

Why on earth should I listen to you when you don't apparently even remember what you wrote?

Further, if you don't know that there is a difference between indoctrination and teaching kids religion in hopes that they will become adherents to that faith, then you are too stupid to be listened to.

Besides, it's so funny you consider the above to be so similar, yet you consider "indoctrination" and "whisked away and brainwashed" so different. My goodness, you might as well say cherry tomatoes and roma tomatoes are very different, but that apples and cucumbers are the same thing. That's how tortured your logic is, and all this is using your own words.

But I commented because you were saying ridiculous things and also saying that Gideons were indoctrinating children. An innacurate and slanderous smear that I'm reminding you that you made.

[Marnieworld]

233. websters

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/indoctrination

in·doc·tri·nate
–verb (used with object), -nat·ed, -nat·ing. 1. to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.
2. to teach or inculcate.
3. to imbue with learning.


It means instruction in a doctrine. I used it correctly.

[CreekDog]

237. Oh, you used the word indoctrinate because you meant simply to teach or instruct

Uh huh.

[PassingFair]

207. Would it be OK for me to hand out pro "democrat" literature to kids?

How about Fred Phelps' "God Hates Fags" stuff?

Just as long as I'm on the sidewalk?

OK to pass out pictures of "aborted babies"?

How about "Satanic" literature?

The interesting thing is that THESE issues won't be TESTED, because
most RATIONAL PEOPLE LEAVE OTHER PEOPLE'S CHILDREN THE FUCK ALONE!

The Gideons should stick to their motel rooms and leave the kids alone.

[MonkeyFunk]

263. Yes

of course it would be all right. People do it all the time. It's that whole 1st amendment thing.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

209. Sometimes The Melodrama I Find Here Makes My Jaw Drop.

That's all I have to say.

[spoony]

269. I'm getting rather used to it.

[porque no]

307. Wrong again.

That's all I have to say.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

313. I'm Wrong By Saying The Melodrama Makes My Jaw Drop? Ok Ok. So My Jaw Really Didn't Drop.

It was just rhetorical. But the ridiculously over the top zealous fundamentalist melodrama most definitely did make me shake my head from side to side in utter disbelief as to how reactionary some people can be.

And no, I'm not wrong there. It really did make me shake my head from side to side.

[Name removed]

316. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

321. Awwwwww, That's So Cute.

You and your witty bitty personal attacks and stuff. :rofl:

[spoony]

329. Why would you tell someone

to put you on ignore? You weren't even part of this.

[Common Sense Party]

357. It is good entertainment, though.

For many, a Bible is, apparently, not unlike kryptonite to Superman.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

386. You Ain't Kiddin! Best Line I've Seen Yet Though!

Cracked me up when I read it. :)

[RobinA]

230. So....

You would agree that sex and birth control should not be taught in school, but left to parents? How fragile are these children that handing them a Bible tells them that they are "wrong." Kids hear all kinds of stuff in school that differs from what their parents believe. Does all this make them feel "wrong." Let's teach kids to deal with opposing opinions, not run from them in horror because they don't have the tools to deal with an opinion they don't subscribe to. Why is the Bible singled out as super-inflammatory? Why so threatened?

[Marnieworld]

234. Um

The Constitution has no mention of separation of sexual health education and the State.

I don't single out the bible the Gideons do. If it was the Hare Krishnas, Muslims, Mormons, Wiccans, any and everyone I think it is odd to have it be connected to public education. Besides it's not part of what kids hear in school to educate. It's strangers outside of the school calling them over with no opposing opinion represented and to have all opinions would be a giant crowd. Last time I checked children are considered fragile and generally people try to protect them because of that. The safest fairest way of dealing with everyone is to have it determined by individual families.

[spoony]

270. It has no stipulation for separation of church and sidewalk either.

[CreekDog]

277. Agreed. And funny!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

296. !

:spray:

:applause:

[porque no]

310. Christians can push their beliefs, but when someone pushes back.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!

You're attacking christians!!!!!

War on christmas!!!!!!!

WWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

[CreekDog]

238. Because they believe in tolerance for everything but the bible and/or Christians

Unless the above items are not seen, not heard and doesn't disturb their lives in any way.

[iverglas]

393. that's so cute

What a clever exchange.

Someone asks someone: "Why so threatened?" It's a loaded question -- a question loaded with a FALSEHOOD as a premise -- for the simple reason that the person being asked the question is not "threatened" and has given the questioner no basis for inferring that s/he is "threatened".

And you come along and answer the question: "Because they believe in tolerance for everything but the bible and/or Christians." The reason that someone is something s/he isn't is something you pulled out of your ass.

I love a comedy duo with fresh, original stuff. If you two work at it, you might come up with some. This particular stuff has been done to death, I'm afraid.

[wtmusic]

30. Why a letter?

How many thousands of sheets of paper were printed up for Gideon-Man? :shrug:

[in_cog_ni_to]

35. Paper PAID FOR WITH OUR TAX $$$$!

:grr:

[tammywammy]

43. I read it as aletter letting parents know it's going to happen

That way parents can tell their children to just say "no, thank you" if he approaches them.

How many on DU would more upset if there was no prior warning to this?

[donco6]

198. Exactly.

People have missed the whole point of the letter, and it's really quite obvious.

[spoony]

268. They're missing the point on purpose

because it allows them more fuel for their outrage.

[PVnRT]

250. They'd be upset anyway

There is a contingent on this website that feel the need to be outraged by everything.

[MADem]

38. Ewww,,,,a man, a STRANGER, being allowed to approach CHILDREN on school property?

That's fucking SICK. Let him pester the little baaastids outside their churches...

Pay no attention to what McGruff the Crime Dog told you about weird old guys approaching you and trying to give you stuff...it's "OK" cuz it's JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZUS!

Christ on a bicycle...!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

44. It's unsettling that the Gideons are LITERALLY approaching children at a school.

Makes the skin crawl. MKJ

[Beausoir]

47. It has a definite creep factor. Should be interesting to see how other parents are paying attention

my guess is...none.

[Fridays Child]

41. Save that letter, and contact the Islamic Society of North America.

http://www.isna.net/contact/

And another good contact might be the Islamic Information Center of America: http://www.iica.org/

In either case, tell them that your district is allowing this and you'd like them to have a similar opportunity to distribute their own literatura. Give them the addresses and phone numbers of the district administration, board members, and the superintendent. If you can send them a copy of the letter you received, you should do that, too.

[Marrah_G]

149. I wouldn't want them handing out religious shit either

My basic feeling is that anyone who tries to influence my child's faith is crossing a line and I will get in their face about it. I am generally very quiet and reserved, but for me this is an issue that really gets under my skin.

I remember some Catholic Nuns (I have NEVER seen catholics behave like this before, or since) that came into a pizza my family was eating at and started handing out little medallions. I told the kids to say thank you politely and leave it at that. I come from an Irish Catholic family and always had respect for Nuns and Priests.

These nuns proceded to try and convert us, going so far as to tell my children that their parents were going to hell. At that point I stood up and let those women have it. Both my ex and I are the equivilent of priests within our own religion and what those women did was just awful.

In respect to those Christians on the board, I won't say what I would do to any bible shoved in my child's face.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

164. Screw that. Let them eat each other. Hell, invite Wiccans, Hare Krishnas, and Scientologists too. nt

[Marrah_G]

167. Nah not the Wiccans

Wiccans don't impose our beliefs on others. I would never ever try and convert another mother's child. In fact as a relatively standard rule most Covens will not allow those under 18 to attend anything unless they are a child of someone already in the Coven. Occassionally one might be allowed in with written premission from parent, but even that is frowned upon.

[WindRavenX]

42. Why do people feel compelled to do this?

Seriously.

[tjwash]

45. Make sure he's not standing there in a trenchcoat...

...one hand holding bibles, the other buried wayyyy to deeply in his pocket.

And you may think I'm joking, but has anyone ever seen that MSNBC show "to catch a predator?" They caught at least 4 middle aged ministers on one show.

[etherealtruth]

51. That sadly hits close to home ...

Our school district had several incidents involving some jack-ass exposing himself to kids at school bus stops last year.

Adults have no business loitering around schools and handing anything out.

[KansDem]

48. Here, be ready to hand these out...

...at your local church! :rofl:

[Beausoir]

110. Best idea yet! N/t

[LibDemAlways]

49. There's a Mormon facility adjacent to my

daughter's school, and one afternoon some of the members stood just outside the school driveway handing out literature. Don't know if they had the school's permission or not since they were not on school property.

However, it was sort of creepy to see adults approaching children that way. I didn't think it was appropriate.

[eppur_se_muova]

53. Does anyone stand outside of churches handing out copies of "Freethinkers"?

Or "The Blind Watchmaker"? Or "The Salmon of Doubt"? And if not, why not? It would seem to serve a noble purpose.

[Crunchy Frog]

88. I may just take it up at some point. n/t

[no_hypocrisy]

54. This sounds unlawful. Contact Freedom From Relgion (advertised on AAR)

and ask for Annie Laurie Gayor or Dan Barker at [phone].
Their website if http://www.ffrf.org

http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/back/gideon.html

They file lawsuits on behalf of individuals like yourself all the time to protect the separation of church and state.

I hope this helps you:

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=17370

This group of Gideons sound like they're being cute by distributing the Bibles OUTSIDE the school AFTER school hours in order to skirt the limits imposed by the federal courts.

[tammywammy]

60. If they're off of school grounds it is legal

How would it not be?

[no_hypocrisy]

111. The original post was ambiguous, locating the Gideons "outside the school".

If it's the public sidewalk, you are correct. They can organize and solicit. But if they are literally on school property, I think the school could ban them as trespassers, having no business on school property and infringing on others' rights with unconstitutional behavior.

[Beausoir]

129. You are right...I was ambiguous in my OP. The letter said "On the street". n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

135. I don't think weird people are allowed to harass little kids willy-nilly

I think a stranger standing on the street outside a school trying to strike up conversations with other people's school age kids, giving them strange "gifts", is grounds for calling the cops.

[tammywammy]

219. Oh you're right

I'm sure that's why the Gideons gave the school district a heads up that they're going to be there.

But in any case, if this happens at a school near you, feel free to call the cops. They will eventually show up, and then they'll leave, because it's not against the law to hand out Bibles on public property.

[Duer 157099]

55. Yes. Except it was a Middle School. And in a VERY blue district.

I called the school and was told what everyone already posted: that they had informed the school and the school made sure they knew they had to stay off of school property.

I was pretty pissed off about it though. I told my son that if he was offered one, to ask for a dozen :evilgrin:

[DireStrike]

56. HERE is what to do. Ask him which church he goes to.

Go hand out shemale porn there on Sunday morning. Off the church grounds, of course.

BETTER YET, find the sunday school and hand out something legal for the kids to have. Darwin or something.

[The Straight Story]

57. I don't see the problem

The bible is literature just like any other book. I would not be upset with someone passing out Moby Dick, et al, and I don't see this as anything different.

[DireStrike]

58. You think he's just gonna stand there silently and hand them out?

Could be, but I wouldn't put money on it.

It's predatory behavior in any case. A religion is just a cult with more members.

[Progressive_In_NC]

154. That's what Gideon's do, they stand there and hand out copies of the bible

They also put them in hotel rooms in the drawers. They don't stand in your hotel room when you check in, they just make the literature available.

They really aren't like those PIT preachers you'd see in colleges, they won't be standing around screaming about folks going to HELLLLLLLAHHHH.

Elementary school kids who ride the bus will load and unload in a seperate area anyhow. If you're not riding the bus, your parents or guardians will most likely pick you up. The guys who handed out the little new testaments every year outside of my school never said more than "would you like a little New Testament to take home" and maybe a "god loves you" or "god bless"


From their website:
===================================================================
Members of The Gideons International place and distribute scriptures in 181 countries in 82 languages. We focus on five primary areas:

Hotels and Motels
Hospitals, Nursing Homes, and Domestic Violence Shelters
Schools, Colleges, and Universities
The Military, Law Enforcement Personnel, Firefighters, and EMTs
Prisons and Jails
The demand for Scriptures in these areas far exceeds our supplies that we are able to purchase through our donations. Much more could be done- if funds were available. However, we are placing and distributing more than 1 million copies of the Word of God, at no cost, every 7 days in these areas
====================================================================

[qanda]

182. You are exactly right

I've worked with the Gideons in prison ministry, where even Liberal Christians go to share their faith, and they have been nothing but the nicest of people. I don't ever remember them trying to shove anything down anyone's throat.

[no_hypocrisy]

61. Actually there are several problems because it IS the Bible.

First, it's a religious text. It is not a content neutral piece of literature. It has a relgious message which does not belong in public schools. I

Second, if public school teachers cannot distribute the Bibles, if fellow students cannot distribute the Bibles, then nonschool personnel cannot have that privilege or right.

Third, private citizens have the right to indoctrinate their children or not to indoctrinate at all. Having an organization interfere with their parental rights by handing out Bibles on public school property paid for by their tax dollars is unlawful.

Fourth, children by law are COMPELLED to attend public school unless they are enrolled either in a private school or are home schooled. That is one of the strongest rationales for the Supreme Court decisions that have upheld the Establishment Clause in these types of cases. Because the children must attend, the public schools have to maintain a religiously neutral environment and thus cannot allow overt religious indoctrination, even if it's something as inocuous as passing out a Bible which could either be kept and read, or thrown out.

Lastly, it's a slippery slope. Today, it starts with Bibles. The group returns later, with other enticements like candy or coloring books and try to get the children to become interested in their group or religious message, again, circumventing the parents on public school property.

In short, the issues are the fact the books are Bibles and the place where they are distributed are public school grounds. And the groups KNOW the law; they are trying to invite a court challenge in hopes of reversing prior constitutional precedence.

[tammywammy]

63. It's completely legal to pass out the Bible or any religious literature on public property

The sidewalk in front of a school is public property. And the schools giving all parents a heads up that it's happening.

[RobinA]

231. By Your Third Argument

you should oppose the idea of school completely, being that it is one big indoctrination machine.

The slippery slope slide both ways. Ban handing out Bibles today, ban political literature tomorrow.

[gollygee]

67. If there were a group evangelizing Moby Dick and trying to get people to join the church of MB

then it would be a problem.

People have a right to keep their kids out of the reach of people trying to evangelize to them. I would never dream of talking to the children of my friends (some of whom are very religious) about my non-belief. I expect the same courtesy from them. And I would never approach a child I didn't know trying to take them away from their family's faith. Again, I expect the same courtesy.

[spoony]

274. No, actually, you don't have that right.

Your children, unless chained in your basement, will encounter many different philosophies and ideas in the world. It's called society. It's called growing up. It's called learning.

[gollygee]

328. OK well then send your kids over here for an afternoon

and I'll give them some different philosophies and ideas. I bet you wouldn't like that any more than I'd like you evangelizing to my kids.

In my neighborhood, we're courteous and don't disrespect other kids' parents by teaching them things contrary to what they're being taught at home.

[spoony]

331. So children should only

have things presented to them that enforce what they're taught at home. Well that's a good way to grow. And what if, at home, they're taught to hate gay people, that Dems are traitors and should be in camps, that the earth isn't warming, etc.?

We wouldn't want to be rude by introducing new ideas, would we?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

334. I'm Sorry, But Can You Point Out Where Any Teaching Was Goin On? I Missed That Part.

I thought it was just an innocent handing off of a bible. But based on your post, I must've missed the part that said after taking the bible, one must report immediately to the auditorium for bible study.

[mudesi]

75. I have a feeling you might be against another book, though...

Perhaps I should start handing out Mein Kampf outside of my local grade school...

[The Straight Story]

106. That is a book worth handing out

People should see all sides of things.

I have a copy of said book, and have had since I was in 10th grade (I am 41 now).

I don't fear the printed word of people, even when I disagree with them.

[mondo joe]

86. Some would prefer that strangers not intrude in their family on private matters like religion. NT

[Crunchy Frog]

92. So you wouldn't find it objectionable if I stood outside a church some Sunday

handing out copies of the Baghavad Gita to all the little kiddies.

Good, since I may just take that sort of thing up. It's spreading quality literature after all.

[WhollyHeretic]

97. It's worse than that. At a church the parents would probably be with the kids

When leaving school a child has no adult with them.

[Crunchy Frog]

100. Well, outside a religious school then.

:evilgrin:

[The Straight Story]

107. I am all for that

And I wish to hell someone had been there when I was a kid at a fundie baptist church passing out such things.

It might have opened my mind sooner rather than later.

[Horse with no Name]

59. I'd ask the school to see a criminal FBI background check on the guy

Question why they are arranging access to your kid off of school grounds with a non-school employee. Bluntly tell them that since it is off school grounds you are requesting that they sign a waiver of responsibility in case this guy ends up stalking and molesting your child that makes them financially responsible.
I bet they cancel the little revival meeting and you don't have to once bring up separation of church and state. You are requesting separation of funds and that usually speaks a little bit louder.

[Beausoir]

112. Wow. Interesting ideas, but it would just end up costing my public school more money, I fear.

I love our schools up here. I love public school teachers..all teachers for that matter.

I just hate that these sicko bible-bangers can manipulate....cynically...the entire situation.

[donco6]

200. They have no right.

What makes you think as a school, we can just walk out to people on the sidewalk and ask for an FBI background check?

[CreekDog]

288. Wonder if Molly Ivins likes her face to be on your message

Saying the FBI should harass the Gideon volunteer with a background check?

How ironic!

ps-your suggestion was horrifying, avatar notwithstanding.

[Raskolnik]

340. I do not believe you are serious.

Please tell me you're not.

[CreekDog]

355. I am serious, look at post #59

Molly Ivins is that avatar, and not that it usually matters, but the content is saying to call the FBI to follow up on the Gideon guy who would be handing out the bibles in hopes that the whole shindig might get called off.

I can't imagine Molly would agree with that sentiment, but there's her picture right next to that statement and it's a shame in my opinion.

[Raskolnik]

368. We're victims of a glitchy site, I believe.

My disbelief was made as a reply to post #59, and should not have registered as a reply to your post. By all indications, we are in agreement about this issue.

I simply cannot believe some of the responses on this thread; to read some of them, you would think that old men handing out literature on a public sidewalk is both unprecedented and bound to be the death of the republic.

[greenbriar]

62. its no big deal we got them when we were little and I am still a dem...

some things don't need fighting over


geesh

[in_cog_ni_to]

69. This is not a matter of Democrats v. Republicans. It's the separation of church and state that the

RW, religious nut job wackos have been trying to violate for as long as I can remember. Remember the CONSTITUTION? THIS matters.

[zbdent]

64. Four words ...

"That man touched me ..."

[malaise]

65. Whatever happened to no thank you

Your kid should refuse.

[in_cog_ni_to]

70. Whatever happened to religion being taught in CHURCH and Separation of Church and State?

:( That pesky piece of G-d damn paper! THE CONSTITUTION.

This isn't just a matter of saying no thank you. These people want to go further and they WILL if we let them. We can NEVER stop fighting them. Give them an inch, they'll take a mile. Before you know it, our public schools will all have crosses and steeples on top and the kids will be praying every hour on the hour AT SCHOOL.:(

[malaise]

77. I agree with you 100% but

I'd tell my kid to tell them no thank you and keep her/his distance. I always object to strangers approaching kids and this is no different.

[spoony]

275. Why don't you

take a breath, take a step back, and think about the past. Really think about it. Now, was there MORE religion in school in the past or presently? In the past, clearly. We are a far more pluralistic society now. Your hysteria that this is the first step to theocracy is in no way connected to reality.

[in_cog_ni_to]

309. BULLSHIT. Read a newspaper. n/t

[MonkeyFunk]

317. Spoony is right

years ago there was compulsory school prayer, the bible was taught in classes, etc. etc. We have gotten away from a lot of that, thankfully.

[in_cog_ni_to]

322. NO, spoony is not right. It's only just begun. They have their damn foot in the door already..in

Georgia and just look at the States to follow suit.


The Georgia law allowing the state-funded Bible classes won overwhelming approval last year from both Democratic and Republican lawmakers. The classes must be taught "in an objective and nondevotional manner with no attempt made to indoctrinate students."

Lawmakers in Alabama, Missouri, Tennessee, and Texas have considered similar plans this year, although none has received final approval. One proposal in Texas would require all high school students to take a Bible class.

http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2007/05/06/ga_schools_move_cautiously_adding_religion_in_curriculum/

[spoony]

You do realise that in years past that wouldn't even be

out of the ordinary enough to warrant an article, right?

What do you get out of this "sky is falling" "it's just begun!" crap? Does it satisfy paranoia or prejudice?

[in_cog_ni_to]

344. "Your hysteria that this is the first step to theocracy is in no way connected to reality."

That statement is pure BULLSHIT as you can see by the article I posted. We live in 2007....not years past. Join the real world why don't you? The RW freaks will NEVER stop trying to get prayer back in schools and I will fight them and you for as long as it takes to stop this crap. Whether you like it or not, I really don't give a rats ass, SPOONY!:eyes:

[spoony]

326. *flipping through newspaper* nope, no mention of imminent

theocracy.

And none of what you said can change the fact that there is less of what could be called indoctrination now in schools than in decades past.

[tammywammy]

367. "That pesky piece of G-d damn paper! THE CONSTITUTION."

Yeah, apparently you forgot about that free speech part too. It's completely consitutitional to pass out literature on public property, even if it is a Bible.

[WhollyHeretic]

98. No thank you is a response an adult should give. People should not be targeting

other peoples children. Trying brainwash them while they're young.

[wellstone dem]

66. If your child is approached by a stranger, they should call 911.

I'm surprised any organization would do this given the potential liability if something happens to a child.

[bluerum]

68. Yeah - but keep Catcher in the Rye away from them. eom

[Nicole]

71. I think it's great that the school sent out letters.

It gives parents advance warning of the event. They can use that time to remind their kids not to talk to strangers and not to accept gifts from them.

[democrat in Tallahassee]

72. They do it at Florida State every year. n/t

[Berry Cool]

73. If you think that's bad

read this story written by someone who went to high school in the '70s:

http://unspeakablystupid.com/uss19.html

I could have written this one. Some form or other of "Free Fare" played my high school, too. Christian propagandists, disguised as rockers, performing a small concert during a school assembly, and then a bigger one later, at which they delivered their "message."

Anyone else?

edited to add: This took place in a public school, right in the gym.

[baldguy]

74. Give him a lighter.

[appal_jack]

76. Hey Folks: Free Speech around schools is a GOOD thing

This response is geared to all the freaking-out replies in the thread more than it is to the OP, but anyway, here goes:

OK, so a Gidgeonite wants to hand out bibles on a sidewalk near a school. No big deal. The especially good thing is that this sets a precedent in your community (Note: the 1st Amendment has already set a precedent for the whole country, but too many 'murikans conveniently forget that). This Gidgeon-precedent in your community opens the door to you (or anyone) doing counter-recruitment outside the schools when the ROTC folks come calling. Or you can flyer for an anti-war rally. Or whatever: that's why it's called FREE speech.

Here's an illustrative story. Back in 1984 I was in 8th grade at a public high school on the upper east side of Manhattan. I was a sheltered kid from Staten Island, and had some pretty lousy viewpoints (homophobia, militarism, etc.) from that upbringing. One day some woman from a Marxist group called the Spark was handing out fliers and basically railing against capitalism and war. I stopped and listened and got curious. That got me started on political awareness and, later, activism. I never became a Marxist (though I did read the Communist Manifesto and found it rather inspiring back then), but have explored Marxism, Anarchism, and other radical philosophies, and have come around to the point that I would be thrilled if we Americans would simply live up to the legacy of liberty bequeathed to us by the founding fathers in our Bill of Rights, plus the legacy of compassion created by FDR.

So I'm a fan of street preachers and activists, and all other forms of public dialogue. Anything to get kids thinking...

-app

[mike_c]

85. do you think they would stand for free speech at their church....

I suspect not.

[tammywammy]

89. Sure, you can stand on public property

in front of a church and hand out literature.

Just like a religious organization can stand on public property in front of a school handing out religious literature.

[mike_c]

93. of course, but do you thing the xtians would appreciate it any more...

...than I appreciate them recruiting children outside public schools.

[tammywammy]

94. It doesn't matter

both are prefectly legal. Just because I may not like one or the other, doesn't discount that it's legal under our Constitution.

[mike_c]

101. of course it's LEGAL-- but it's not RESPECTFUL....

I would not try to influence the beliefs of xtian children on the sidewalk outside their church because it's not respectful of their right to believe whatever superstitious nonsense they want to believe, and I hope I'm made it clear that I'm just as passionate an opponent of christianity as they are of my atheism. But I still respect their right to their delusions.

They REFUSE to extend that same respect to others-- its clear that kids who are already xtians likely already have access to all the bibles they want, so the bible distribution is rather transparently aimed at discouraging people who don't share their beliefs.

Yes, it's legal. But it's terribly disrespectful.

[appal_jack]

90. inside the church, they can do what they like...

... but the 1st Amendment protects my right to hand out Flying Spaghetti Monster literature on the sidewalk outside, should I choose to do so.

-app

[RobinA]

232. A Church

is not public property.

[guitar man]

78. is this

to help with good Rocky's revival?? :shrug:

If not, I'd be pissed...:grr:

[Lurking Dem]

80. This is how my Mom handled it

when I was given a Gideon's Bible in grade school back in the early 70's. (If they are not on school property, there is not a lot you can do.)

"What do you have there?"

"A New Testament from some guy named Gideon."

"I got one of those when I was young too. I still have it, look."

"Wow that's really cool. It looks a lot different than mine."

"Well, you can keep it. I just kept it because I thought it was pretty." (This one was from the 40's and leather bound.)

"What is it about?"

"A man named Jesus who the Christians follow as a Savior."

"Is it true?"

"Read it and decide for yourself."


I'm still a Jew. No harm, no foul.

[fortyfeetunder]

141. That's a good story.

I am sorry those organizations appear not to think not everyone is Xtian.

[iamthebandfanman]

81. yah happened alot here

heck, even got one at graduation in high school

[juno jones]

83. Got one too.

1960's, IL. Might have glanced at it. My parents didn't reinforce the religion stuff, so it didn't really take. I'm a pagan now.

[ellenfl]

99. i think children should be taught not to accept anything

from strangers . . . even bibles. at least that's what i was taught, oh, so many years ago. how do you know that the person handing out the bibles will not proselytize if a child takes one of the books?

ellen fl

[Catherine Vincent]

102. I am sure most kids will accept it and throw it away when they get home.

[Duer 157099]

103. Here, let me put this in the proper perspective

I've read all of the responses, and there are a couple points that I think need emphasis.

First, some people have countered with the seemingly logical idea of handing out literature in front of a church as fair play. BUT ... that is NOT an equivalent situation! Most if not all kids exiting a church are WITH their parents.

Now imagine this scenario: someone standing outside of a CHRISTIAN SCHOOL and handing out some sort of religious literature -- the Satanic Bible or something.

*That's* a comparable situation. How long do you think it would be before the school would be doing something about it?

The issue is that the children are deliberately being approached at a time when they are NOT with their parents! That is the main point, and actually demonstrates the nefarious purpose -- otherwise they'd hand them out in front of supermarkets!!

Secondly, the school having to use tax money to purchase the paper to send the notice home *IS* a big issue! Some of these schools are so utterly strapped for $$ due to NCLB that every penny matters.

[MurrayDelph]

104. As a retired schoolteacher

I think the school did the right thing in informing the parents that this was going to happen.
I think it is along the lines of the guy who stands outside the Ralph's market collecting "for the
poor" (In something that looks like a drum major's uniform; I refer to them collectively as "Harold Hill").

Near to where "Harold" is standing is a notice from Ralph's stating that while they do not endorse the solicitations,
they are unable to prevent them, either.

Now, I grew up in Los Angeles in the early 1960's, and never had to deal with this as a (Jewish) child. And it was not
done when I was teaching in South-Central LA in the 80's.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to video-record the solicitations, both to make sure the Gideons are not on school property and
to have assurances that they politely take "no, thank you" as an answer. Anything other than polite refusal and equally polite
acceptance thereof, can be construed as assault





and THEN you can nail the bastards!

[Progressive_In_NC]

185. I think we have completly lost our way here...

Anything other than polite refusal and equally polite
acceptance thereof, can be construed as assault

and THEN you can nail the bastards!

======================================================

the Gideons (or "the bastards" as you have so eloquently stated above) handing out those bibles will be somebody's grandma or grandpa. They tend to be Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Non SBC-Baptists. This is not a fundy organization. They exist and their primary goal is:

======================================================
This is a primary function of The Gideons, placing and distributing Bibles and New Testaments in the human traffic lanes and streams of national life.
======================================================

Not to stand on some kids head until they submit to Christ. I know fundy's have tainted folks views of Christians, but geez people there are some really good CHRISTIAN organizations out there that tend to let their works show their intentions, and only offer their testimony if someone else asks.

The Gideons fall in that category.

[MurrayDelph]

199. In that case there will be nothing to "nail" them for

(by which I meant calling the cops).

For example, many years ago I had business at the Salt Lake City headquarters of the Mormon
Church. At the end of my meetings, one of the workers came up to me with a copy of the Book of
Mormon. The conversation went as follows:

him: Have you ever seen a copy of this?
me: Yes, I have.
him: Do you have a copy?
me: No, I don't.
him: Do you want a copy?
me: No offense, but no thanks.
him: OK, cool.

This is how the "encounter" at school should be handled. At the same time, I have had other Christian groups holler at me for being a Jew.

If the Gideons fall into the former category, more power to them. I think it would be nice if
someone put the Christ back into Christianity.

[spoony]

276. "the bastards!"

Jesus. It's the Gideons, people. Get a bloody grip.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. When I went to San Diego State

my fisrt day of class was well Gideons

having come from another country I just took it... not knowing who or what they were

oh this was 1984

[GoneOffShore]

114. Just remember, if you're staying at Motel 6

Check the blank pages of the Gideon Bibles for the phone numbers of the local "Ladies (or Gentlemen) of the Evening".

[Sanctified]

116. It's Interesting because the only Religious book I ever received for free was a Bible.

For all my other Religious books which include Buddhist, Muslim and Hebrew I had to spend a ton of money. I am not Christian however I give them props for being one of the few religions who are willing to give away what should be free to begin with.

[MODemocrat]

117. Have your Son tell the bible man that he can't accept anything from a stranger

My children were never allowed to accept anything from someone they didn't know (well).
I didn't know anyone would be allowed to solicit on school grounds, which is supported by taxpayers of all faiths, assuming your Son goes to public schools.

[eridani]

118. Someone should stand next to the guy with a big sign reading--

"I have two daughters who have never had intercourse with men. Let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you please. But don't do anything to these men, for you know they have come under the shelter of my roof."

Genesis 19:8

Let's see how long he hangs around then.

[SeattleGirl]

119. Never happened to me, but I do recall when everyone had to pray

before eating lunch. And this was not a religious school, either, but it was in the early-mid 60's. Prayer in schools was the norm at that time, but I don't recall any bibles being handed out, nor do I recall any of my teachers talking about religious matters in class.

[orleans]

121. go to this website RIGHT AWAY and contact them!

http://www.au.org/site/PageServer

and tell them the school is helping by handing out these fucking letters!!!

i doubt the aclu will do anything.

but barry lynn and americans united for seperation of church & state might.

[Beausoir]

134. I just sent them an email. Thanks for the link.

It's clear that these bible-banging freaks aren't doing anything illegal, but it doesn't hurt to question why in the hell they are standing outside elementary schools, specifically targeting 4th graders.

Creepy in the extreme.

[orleans]

138. also, look on this link and see if there is a chapter around you

that you can contact by phone
http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=fld_chapters_list

ALSO

check with the police dept and ask them if these people are going to need some type of permit -- or can anyone or any nonprofit hang out in town passing out flyers?

i know people around here need to register with the police and let them know what area they'll be in and on what days. maybe your village has some type of ordinance on this as well.

ALSO

i think whoever is hanging around the grade school on friday, you should get their names and then check with your local police for the sexual offenders list and see if you can come up with something (i can't help being suspicious about shit like this)

[Beausoir]

180. UPDATE: Americans United for Separation of Church and State wrote me back with key points.

Hello,



<<Thank you for contacting Americans United. I received your email about the planned bible distribution tomorrow at elementary schools in XXXXX, MN. In order to be able to best assist you I was hoping you could answer the following questions –

Could you either email or fax me a copy of the letter that you received from the school about the bible distribution? Our fax # is 202-xxx-xxxx. Please also send any other school communication about the event.
Where will the people who are distributing bibles be? On school or public property?
Has the school promoted the event in anyway or indicated that school officials will be involved in the bible distribution?
You mentioned that this action is in accordance with a district wide policy – if you could also email or fax a copy of that policy to me that would be very helpful
Do you know if this sort of bible distribution has happened in the past? Please provide any details about past events.

I look forward to hearing from you. >>

Nice to know that these people are listening.

[orleans]

221. i'm so glad you were able to get in touch with someone who is

interested.

could you please let us know tomorrow--on this thread--what happened. that would be great.

and don't forget--take your camera & get some names! (is there a friend who could help you?)

[donco6]

366. And here's what the answers will be:

"Could you either email or fax me a copy of the letter that you received from the school about the bible distribution? Our fax # is 202-xxx-xxxx. Please also send any other school communication about the event."

From the letter, the school was simply informing parents that a distribution would be taking place outside the school on such-and-such a day.


"Where will the people who are distributing bibles be? On school or public property?"

We know they were on public property. We know they were sitting at a little table. We know they didn't approach school property or intimidate the kids. We know they didn't disturb the peace or any instructional program.


"Has the school promoted the event in anyway or indicated that school officials will be involved in the bible distribution?"

No to both. People are disputing that the letter was an "endorsement", but it clearly was not. No court in the world would say that it was.


"You mentioned that this action is in accordance with a district wide policy – if you could also email or fax a copy of that policy to me that would be very helpful"

The policy is not going to be about bible distribution, per se. It's going to say that people have a right to a public forum on public property, even if it happens to be near a school. In such events (abortion rallies, protests against gay school clubs, bible distributions, etc.), parents will be informed of the scheduled event. Which is exactly what they did.


"Do you know if this sort of bible distribution has happened in the past? Please provide any details about past events."

They want to know what heppened in the past. Were their past violations of policies? Did anyone from the school ever help distribute? They may be able to charge something against past practice, but I doubt that's the case here.

I am not a Christian. I am a gay man. Christianity has harmed me, and I am no friend of religion in general. I just think people are losing site of the real issue here - people do have the right to free speech, even around kids. Schools CANNOT interfere in this right.

[spoony]

278. And what, do tell, will they do?

Sue the Gideons? The school? That'll help their image.

[illinoisprogressive]

123. I would contact someone immediately. A lawyer or ACLU

[Sanctified]

125. Why? n/t

[CreekDog]

126. If it's off school property, he is doing nothing illegal

And besides, it's not wrong to hand out bibles. There are a thousand things to do in front of a school that would be harmful --this is not one of them.

Get over it.

May the Lord bless you and keep you
May the Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you
May the Lord look upon you with favor and give you peace

[Beausoir]

131. "Get over it". Where have I heard that one before? And...thanks for praying for my soul.

:eyes: :puke:

[murloc]

143. Sometimes, we MUST 'GET OVER IT'

when it comes to free speech.

Theres alot of Free Speech that I find totally annoying.

But to limit Free Speech for the creepy religion pushers on sidewalks will only bite us in the ass when we want to exercise Free Speech at a political rally.

[Beausoir]

155. This is merely a discussion. I see no one in favor of limiting Free Speech. It's about questioning

This is merely a discussion. What's so wrong about asking questions in situations like this?

[murloc]

169. fair enough

Your're absolutely right.

[Crunchy Frog]

150. Nothing wrong with handing out Korans outside of a Christian school either

is there. Or the Origin of Species, or the Humanist Manifesto. I take it that would be just fine with you.

[mondo joe]

152. Not illegal at all. But certainly intrusive and exploitive.

Nothing illegal about being an asshole.

[Bluebear]

161. "GET OVER IT!" followed by a little benediction. Well, isn't that SPECIAL!

:eyes:

[CreekDog]

168. Yeah, I put that in later after reading a few jibes at Christians

We have a gracious God despite all our attempts to make otherwise.

[Beausoir]

179. Do you often do that? Offer up disingenuous Christian benedictions to score political points?

Just curious because that seems pretty phoney-baloney to me. And is probably why a great many of us question people such as yourself and your purported "faith".

You can keep your fake prayers to yourself. I have no need of that kind of religion.

[CreekDog]

181. It wasn't disingenuous, it was genuine

And it was better than what I would have said otherwise.

[CreekDog]

302. Beausoir: No I don't, look at my posting history and you will see that

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

166. There is undue school involvement ALREADY -- the letter.

That means they are irrevocably in the wrong and there's nothing you can do, so GET OVER IT.

[donco6]

192. No they're not.

And I'm not a Christian, so don't go there.

The school sent out a warning, not an endorsement. If they DON'T do this, parents get upset.

Gideons have handed out Bibles for many decades at schools. They know the rules on what they can and can't do. They have the right to do this.

[Name removed]

170. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hatalles]

127. There's a baptist church around here that hands out anti-gay and anti-Muslim tracts...

I've heard they do it every year. Stand outside public high schools and disseminate their hate.

[LeftyMom]

128. Somebody was doing that at a school here lately, I only know because I drove by and saw

I don't know if it was school sanctioned, the rather old man was on the sidewalk at the extreme corner of the school property, which is on a very busy main road, so it's possible this was an unsanctioned thing and he got chased off later or something. He had a box of those little softcover new testaments, which he was handing out. I only saw for a minute as I passed by at a decent clip, so I don't really know the details of the situation.

Nothing like that ever happened at any school I attended. For that matter overt religious display was discouraged even in the private church-run schools some of my friends attended, and I can no more picture such a thing happening at the local Lutheran or Roman Catholic schools than at any other, as they're very aware that most of their students are there for a more rigorous education and many aren't especially religious or of their faith.

If that were my kid's school I'd lighting a fire under somebody's ass to get that shit stopped. And then I'd take up a collection to hand out copies of science books at the organizer's church. :evilgrin:

[MonkeyFunk]

189. Stop it on what grounds?

And how can you demand that he be stopped, and in the next sentence propose to do the same exact thing?

[shugah]

130. this has never happened at our schools

but if it did, i'd probably tell my kids something like "woohoo! free books!"

if the bibles are distributed, as you say, outside the school (i assume that means NOT ON SCHOOL GROUNDS) and there is no proselytizing, that's okay. as i said "FREE BOOKS!"

i encourage my kids to read. i don't think they will read a bible that someone gives them for nothing on the way home from school. i don't think my (or most) kids would find the bible compelling reading. but i have done my very best to teach them to love books and i'm not going to make an exception for books that don't reflect what i believe.

i'm confident that my kids can and will think for themselves. i am not afraid that exposure to the bible will *poof* turn them into fundies - in fact, i am quite sure that it would not. i've read the bible and it did not make me christian, much less a fundamentalist one. i've been the major influence on my kids far longer than a brief instant in time when some stranger holds out a free book to them.

as long as it is not the school handing out bibles or advocating handing out bibles then i think i would be okay about it. (yes, the same goes for the koran or any other religious texts handed out somewhere that was not in school.)

[Beausoir]

133. I'm confident that my kids can think for themselves, too. What does that have to do with this?

I have absolutely zero fear that this will "poof-turn them into fundies".

How do you come up with that from my posts?

Jesus...talk about oblivious.

[murloc]

142. Its no different than a protest rally

Someone on public property handing out free reading material and talking to whomever wishes to listen talk.

I know that we get our defenses up automatically when kids come into play, and some get testy whenever they hear the word religion, but what we are talking about is an exercise of 1st amendment rights.

The same consitution that protect the right for someone to stand on a public sidewalk, hand out bibles and talk about God, also protects the rights for others to stand on the same sidewalk, handout MoveOn pamphlets and explain why Bush should be impeached.

If this happens on school property, we got a problem. Otherwise its just another facet of living in a free society.

[wildhorses]

157. ---

:applause:

[noamnety]

158. That's exactly right. If it ain't on school property, it's fine.

Maybe personally offensive to some, but legal and constitutional.

Personally, I'd be offended. And yet, I'd defend their right to do it - just as I defend the right of counter-recruitment groups to do the same with their literature.

It wouldn't surprise me if the ACLU defends their rights here as well - until the second they step on school grounds, in which case I'd expect the ACLU to do a 180.

[treestar]

210. I think you are right.

Though it would be interesting to have the Koran experiment done, say the next day at the same school, and find out if in that case, the police "can't do anything."

[AngryOldDem]

144. I did...back in the 1960s....

Thought they weren't doing this anymore.

[krispos42]

174. Happened to me twice in college

One day there were nicely-dressed people all over campus with boxes of pocket New Testaments. Green covers.

Didn't stick to me, though! :-)

[Reverend_Smitty]

183. They handed out the same bibles at my college...

it was a sad waste of paper really, the classrooms were littered with them for weeks from people just leaving them on a desk or floor after they were handed out. I remember seeing one used as a door stopper in one of the dorms...the Godless east coast liberals that we are :P

[theHandpuppet]

145. Hand out pocket editions of the Consitution

They'll need 'em.

[seabeyond]

147. last week. my 9 yr old said thank you and took one.

if a child doesnt want one a simple no thank you. i dont think it is a big deal and i am so opposed to religion in schools.

my 9 yr old went to christian private until first grade. middle of first i had to pull them out for different reasons. because of what the school started preaching around spring of 2004 and the anger that came from the christians of that school, made my son a non believer.

when he took that book i asked him, ... did you tell that man you didnt believe.

he said, no... they were so old, and so nice. didnt want to hurt his feelings.

but it was his right if he had chosen

[donco6]

201. And he didn't vaporize on the spot? Wow.

You'd think that would be the case after reading some of the posts on this. Jeebus . . .

[seabeyond]

226. we have become overly sensitive. christian, muslim, atheist, niceness

is a part of all humankind, minus the religion. this situation calls for no more than that. no one is forcing aything on anyone. a simple no thank you surfices.

i agree

[Swamp Rat]

148. If I could...

I'd stand right next to him and hand out copies of the Rigveda, the Avesta, the Qur'an, etc.

[ThatsMyBarack]

153. Are there JEWISH kids at your son's school?

How would THEY handle this??

[woo me with science]

159. AGGGGGGGHHHHH!

I'm MELLLLLLLLLTING!!!!

[spoony]

281. Read the Old Testament?

[Beausoir]

156. UPDATE: Spoke with the Superintendant of the district. I am the only parent who phoned.

7,150 kids in the district and only one parent called to explore this issue. Pretty sad.

Anyway, the guy is a good guy and runs an excellent school system and he understood why I was questioning this.

Every year, they get a call from the Gideons. The Gideons tell the district which schools are being targeted and which date. They are instructed that they must not be on school property and must stay on the public sidewalks.

I asked if any candy would be handed out with the bibles and the Sup couldn't say. He said "It certainly may be. I can not guarantee that there will not be candy."

We had a discussion about people hanging around Elementary Schools, handing things out to children and he was very serious about that. He said "in this day and age, we can not be too careful."

I asked him "What if I wanted to hand out lollipops one afternoon?" He said "I am certain you would draw the very focused attention of the Police Department." But, he completely understood my point and my questions.

I am so glad I phoned.

Alot of insults have been hurled in this topic and that is really too bad. People saying things like "My kids can think for themselves!" Well, how did they LEARN to think for themselves? By blindly ignoring situations like this or by asking some legitimate questions and learning?

This was just a way for me to think this through. I had an obligation, as a parent and as a citizen to question this.

I am completely satisfied with the answers and am very glad I took the time to care and get involved. I learned from it.

He ended by asking me to observe what happens today and to phone him back with my observations. I appreciated that. Here's a man who is open and interested. No wonder I love the schools up here so much.

[in_cog_ni_to]

162. Good job, Beausoir. Will the POLICE be there to monitor the situation? They were at my son'r school.

Did the Super say the police would be there?

[Beausoir]

165. No police. They won't be needed, I'm sure. n/t

[CreekDog]

178. Many posters have lost all sense of proportionality on this

First, they are handing out bibles.
Second, off school property.
Third, these are the Gideons, not exactly ladies of the night, or Osama.

I don't personally want to live in a society where you can only be religious in church, but that seems to be the sentiment here.

I'm a Christian, but I don't fit in with fundies, mostly because I'm not a fundamentalist, but am quite conservative and have theological problems with "altar calls", the decision for Jesus concept (a form of this is the page they put in the Gideon bibles), and a bunch of other theological issues.

Nevertheless, I think the overall work of the Gideons is a good one and the stink raised here by them simply wanting to hand bibles out to kids is way out of line. I dare say, there would be less controversy on this board if condoms were handed out on school property than if bibles were handed out off school property. Such is the weirdness that goes on here with respect to Christianity.

I think we need to distinguish between God and people. Religion is not the reason bad things happen or that people hurt each other --people do so with or without religion. The God of the bible tells people (though there be other stories within it) to treat each other as they would be treated.

When Christians get that wrong, don't take it out on their God and/or the bible --were those followed, there wouldn't be the problems you complain about.

[Ino]

218. Handing out bibles is not "being religious", IMO

It's recruiting.

[in_cog_ni_to]

244. EXACTLY! n/t

[MonkeyFunk]

265. so what?

it's perfectly legal.

Being offended isn't reason to repeal the 1st amendment.

[in_cog_ni_to]

243. Religion is not the reason bad things happenor that people hurt each other? Tell that to GAY PEOPLE.

Tell that to women who need an abortion.

EVERYONE has a different interpretation of "The Bible." YOU may interpret it differently than your neighbor which is THE PROBLEM. Whose interpretation is the CORRECT ONE? Falwell, Robertson, and Dobson seem to think THEIR's is the correct interpretation and just look at what they have done to this country..... The hate they spew on a constant basis.

The best thing to do is to keep your religion to YOURSELF and we'll all get along fine. Why the need to proselytize to people who don't want to hear your crap? No one is telling you you can ONLY be religious in Church. You can BE RELIGIOUS 24/7....but you don't have a right to shove it down my throat because I don't wish to hear it.

[kenny blankenship]

252. Or to the million plus who've fled Iraq, leaving all their property behind

[spoony]

283. No, you're the only parent who didn't understand

the law, free speech, free exercise of religion, etc.

By the way, you forgot to include yourself in that "a lot of insults have been hurled in this topic" bit.

[in_cog_ni_to]

177. Here's a Pocket Sized Koran with link ($2.66):

Too bad you couldn't have these in time to stand next to Mr. Gideon and hand them out while he hands out his Bible.:(

I may order some of these just to keep in my car for emergency intervention when the religious freaks are out and about doing their proselytizing or to have on hand when the JW trespass and come to my private door that's on my private home to shove their religion in my face. I wonder what they'd do if I handed them a Koran?:)


http://www.onlineislamicstore.com/b5893.html

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/talkislam_1948_521444579

[CreekDog]

208. So, if someone hands you a bible, they're a religious "freak"

But if you hand out a Koran, you are ummm, also a religious freak?

Care to explain your reasoning?

The Gideons are not freaks and you propose to do the same thing in response and I assume you think you are not a freak.

Some people here have lost their marbles. It reminds me of going to SF State and despite my own liberalism, even fiercer then, I'd be in class and many fellow students would make broad-brush comments about Christians characterizing or outright saying we were ignorant (obviously can't be 100% true), didn't believe in evolution (way off, especially in my area with majority Roman Catholics), and/or were political conservatives (perish the thought!).

So, I honestly just felt as though I'd been smeared by association or that they were ignorant that a Christian might actually be in their midst (though there were many).

And it made for even more cognitive dissonance that at SF State, I was made to felt this way over my religion at a campus that prized its diversity and considered itself tolerant.

And I feel exactly the same way here at DU in this thread. Some of you need to look in the mirror and examine whether you should recklessly smear Gideons, Christians as fundies, or perverts, mind controllers, etc. Some are aiming the firehose at the crowd, with the aim of hitting one, but not careful to avoid knocking a whole bunch of people down.

It is frankly, not in keeping with the high regard for diversity of thought, religion within the progressive community. To protect that and keep it, this behavior needs to stop, right here, right now.

[porque no]

236. You're missing the point, completely.

The post about the Koran was intended only to point out that IF someone did give out the Koran, it would be assailed by the multitudes, pointing out the inherent problem. School grounds, or should I say public school grounds are not intended to be used by the religious to espouse their beliefs. Even if it is on the sidewalk in front of the school, it is wrong.

As for "Jesus Freak", I think you missed that one too. Being called a freak is not the same as being called a Jesus Freak. Jesus Freaks are freaky about the lord, out of the ordinary so. Freaks can come in many shapes and sizes, I don't think that Jesus Freak means Christian elephant man.

Preach anywhere you want but let's not get public schools involved in any particular proselytizing.

[in_cog_ni_to]

241. This behavior needs to stop here and now? I AGREE! Stop preaching to me on the street, at my home,

and at my son's school! NO ONE is telling you you can't practice your own religion in YOUR HOME, at YOUR CHURCH or sitting on a street to read a Bible TO YOURSELF, but KEEP IT TO YOURSELF! I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT...and THAT is MY right. Don't invade my space and I won't invade yours. Got it? You have YOUR religion and I have mine. I don't preach to YOU and you don't preach to ME...we'll get along just fine. The minute YOU infringe on MY rights is when I am going to speak out and tell YOU where to stick your Bible..K?

Passing out the Koran is to MAKE A POINT. As soon as the Christians see someone handing out a Koran, or the minute one of their children walks into their home with a Koran....you don't think the shit would hit the fan? "THOSE BAD MUSLIMS are trying to indoctrinate our children to be TERRORISTS!" THAT is the point. It's fine for CHRISTIANS to harass people, but as soon as a non-mainstream religion tries to do so, it's quite a different story.

Look what Keith Ellison had to go through when he won his seat in the House! People were SCREAMING about him not being sworn-in with his on a BIBLE! "OMG! He's going to use a Koran!" "THIS is a CHRISTIAN NATION and he should not be swearing an Oath to Allah!" THAT'S what we're dealing with here. Christians want to shove their religion down everyone's throat, but are totally INTOLERANT of other people's religions.

[CreekDog]

266. It's not your right to prevent me or anyone else from preaching on the street

You are not well informed regarding our constitutional rights.

Your "private space" does not include the public sidewalk that the bibles were handed out at. You do not have the right to determine what cannot go on there.

Perhaps China, where much Christianity is kept behind closed doors and other countries where proslytizing is illegal are more suited to your desires. But not the USA.

[in_cog_ni_to]

303. When you come to the door of my HOME you ARE trespassing and INVADING MY SPACE.

Now, why don't you run along to church and go preach your gospel to people who want to hear it. I don't.

[CreekDog]

304. We are talking a public sidewalk, not your front door

Could you please keep track of what we are actually arguing about?

[in_cog_ni_to]

308. I'm talking about MY home and you people trespassing on MY property to preach to me.

I know you and Mr. Gideon can preach on the streets...I don't want to hear it and if I do...you will get an earful. K?

[MonkeyFunk]

318. then what's the disagreement?

He's distributing bibles on a public sidewalk. It's perfectly legal. Nobody talked about coming to your house. :shrug:

[in_cog_ni_to]

327. He's distributing Bibles on a Public Street to vulnerable children.

And I was making an additional point about how you people preach to people who don't want to hear you and MY HOME is just one more place you've invaded.

[MonkeyFunk]

333. yes

on a public street, and it's perfectly legal.

People hand out all kinds of literature in public. I don't understand the anger you seem to have over this.

Tell your kids not to take anything from strangers, and problem solved.

I'm a pretty adamant atheist, but I got one of this bibles on the way home from school once. Big deal. I like all sorts of books. I got a free copy of Dianetics, too, and I'm not a Scientologist. I recently got a beautiful Koran, but so far it hasn't turned me muslim.

[in_cog_ni_to]

346. WHY are they sitting in front of the schools??? There are factories, hospitals, office buildings,

grocery stores, restaurants, bowling allies, gyms, music stores, malls, sporting goods stores, hair salons.........WHY do they pick our schools? I'll tell you why...They're children! That's why. EASY PREY for the religious vultures who want to recruit the kids and proselytize to them because they're innocent and don't know any better. If they went to any of the places listed above, they more than likely would be dealing with ADULTS! THAT is what makes me so angry. These are children and they shouldn't be approaching them as they leave school. What if it was a Molester standing on the corner handing out Bibles to lure children to his car? Is that OK? NO, it's not. The whole thing is unseemly, rude and distasteful.

[MonkeyFunk]

350. but they're not molesters

they're Gideons. Your response is hysterical.

[Bluebear]

358. I don't think that Gideons are immune from being molesters

Not that I think they had any such thing in mind here, but one can't assume that every member of the organization is an angel.

[MonkeyFunk]

384. But

the inverse is even more true - there's no reason to believe this man WAS a molester. The claim itself is hysterical.

[spoony]

284. You are claiming rights that you don't have

You don't get to decide who can have public speech. Sorry.

[in_cog_ni_to]

305. I DO get to claim who comes to my fucking door at 8:00 A.M. on a Saturday morning, TRESPASSING on MY

property! sorry.:eyes: And I know you people can preach your crap whenever you feel inspired to and THAT is what's so sickening. I don't need to be preached to on my way to grocery shop. Thank you very much. Keep it to yourself. I have my own religion.

[spoony]

323. "you people"

Nice. What other groups do you use that on?

And "your fucking door at 8am" is not the subject of this thread.

[in_cog_ni_to]

330. "you people" = religious fanatics who have the NEED to shove YOUR religion down throats of

people who don't want to hear it. You people = repukes. you people = anti-choice people. you people = anti-gay people. you people = hypocrites...I could go on and on with 'other groups, but I think you may get the idea.

[spoony]

338. Lol

You're so far beyond anything resembling coherent discourse, so utterly lost in your world of enemies and paranoia, that there is nothing really I can say to you, except to suggest you pet a cat or something to calm down.

[StrongBad]

315. Let's try a little exercise

Do me a favor. Reread your entire first paragraph above and replace any word/phrase/sentiment within it having to do with religion/handing out Bibles/Gideons/etc. with the sort of sentiment that might happen at a peace rally - i.e. - protesting the war/handing out liberal literature/spouting democratic opinions/ etc.

If you can't from that exercise see why the constitution protects the rights of these people to do this, I would have to say that you're not really an ardent defender of inalienable rights and instead just like to become outraged over your own little pet issues.

[in_cog_ni_to]

332. Nice little exercize.

:eyes: No thanks. I don't have to like OR accept people preaching to me or handing my child a Bible when he leaves his Public School. I never said it was ILLEGAL. I said I don't like it...in fact I detest it.

[StrongBad]

335. You know what? I don't like it either. And no one is telling you that you have to like it.

But yes, despite what you might think you do have to ACCEPT the fact that they have a right to do this (on public property), just as Freeper morans have to accept that it's our right to protest Bush and this idiotic war, though they may not like it one bit.

Unless you allow and accept free speech for all, even those who you despise and disagree with, you truly do not believe in it at all.

[in_cog_ni_to]

343. Excuse me. Those people come to my HOME to preach to me. Don't tell me I have to accept that because

I don't! Protesting a Government for ALL people is completely different than people preaching their own religion to people who don't want to hear their crap. I do not have to like it or accept it on a Personal level. On a 'legal' level, yes I have to, but on a personal level...NEVER. It's rude and distasteful.

[StrongBad]

351. Well...

For one thing, if any religious nuts came to my home (key point: on my private property) I'd agree with you completely in that I'd be justified in not accepting them and promptly telling them to leave before I call the cops. It IS rude and distasteful, indeed.

However the incident in the article above, which should strictly be judged on a legal level, clearly shows that the Gideon in question is within his rights.

[donco6]

186. If they're outside on public property, it's OK.

The school is just trying to keep you informed.

[MonkeyFunk]

187. I'm a little late to this one...

but I don't see anything wrong here, and I'm a strong atheist and an absolutist on church/state separation.

He's not on school grounds. I don't think the school is "enabling" him by sending the note - I think it was a courtesy.

He has a right to distribute whatever literature he likes. Kids are free to decline it.

[onenote]

191. Yep. See post #191.

[Beausoir]

211. Well, Jeeze! That was fast! Three old dudes with tables set up on the sidewalk, in/out 8 minutes.

Extreme hit and run operation. These guys know what they are doing.

At no time did ANY staff from the school converse with them.

No one said anything to my son about Bibles..at all. The system works!

They gave away a TON of those cutesie little red new testaments...some of which were printed upside down. :crazy:

The most important thing to me was seeing what my son chose to do. He got a bible. I asked him why and he said because he had never read the Bible and wanted to see what it said. I was mighty proud. He didn't do it because "others" were doing. He did it because he wanted to and that's great with me. I hope he reads it, but I doubt he will.

I have learned a lot in 24 hours and enjoyed the experience. Thanks to everyone who offered their opinions.

Here's a final posting of the reply I received from Americans United for Separation of Church and State:

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I am pleased to hear that you were able to speak with the superintendent about the bible distribution. We so appreciate having active people on the ground who come to us and advocate on their own for our values in their communities. It is especially nice in this case because I think that you got a positive result. We are often faced with questions about the distribution of religious literature on public sidewalks that border public schools, as members of the Gideons often use these sidewalks to distribute bibles to students. Your superintendent is correct in his assessment that sidewalks are considered public forums and thus there is usually very little that the government can do to prohibit individuals from distributing any kind of literature to students.

That being said, school officials should definitely not be involved in promoting or participating in bible distribution to students. It sounds like your school system understands this and is in compliance with the law. If, however, you observe anything tomorrow that you believe crosses the line please be in touch and we’d be happy to work with you.

Finally, I certainly share your frustration that more people don’t stand up to defend our most basic constitutional rights, but even the actions of one person like you doing so can make a significant difference.

[progressoid]

220. "little red new testaments"...wasn't that a Prince song?

[newspeak]

223. if they are distributing on a public sidewalk,

I see nothing wrong with distributing the New Testament. Here is a perfect time to have a discussion with your child about various religious beliefs--I allowed both my children to go to various churches, as long as, they came home to discuss their concerns and experiences with said churches. Once my daughter brought home a pin which were tiny feet, she was told that these are the feet of a tiny fetus-she then was shown pictures of fetuses-she was ten years old. At the time, I went ballistic-but, she brought her concerns home and we had a discussion about how fetuses develop, pregnancy risks and the value of girls or women over the fetus.

My daughter is grown now, she is familiar with various parts of the Bible and beliefs--she is Wiccan by choice--my son is more Buddhist by choice. If you deny someone from passing out literature or pamphlets on a public sidewalk, I'm afraid you go down a slippery slope of denying others the same access.

[Czolgosz]

224. Catholic Bibles? Protestant Bibles? Eastern Orthodox Bibles? The Ethiopian Church's Bible? Which of

these books are included or excluded?

1. Tobit (in Catholic Bibles, excluded from Protestant Bibles)

3. III Maccabees (in Eastern Othrodox Bibles, excluded from Catholic and Protestant Bibles)

4. I Enoch (in Ethiopian Bibles, excluded from Eastern Othrodox, Catholic and Protestant Bibles)

The Catholics, Jews, and Protestants cannot even agree on the Ten Commandments, how will they agree on a whole Bible?

[Bridget Burke]

248. Apparently the Gideons prefer the King James Version.

I like the language in the KJV. But it's definitely Protestant.

(Hey, some of my best friends are Protestants!)

www.ministrywatch.org/mw2.1/F_SumRpt.asp?EIN=362270051

[spoony]

390. I believe it's because the KJV is royalty-free

but that may not be the only reason.

[and-justice-for-all]

225. If I knew that this was going to happen...

..I would be on the phone with FFRF and CFI Indiana!!! get my own fliers to hand out at the sametime.

[Name removed]

235. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beausoir]

239. Self-Delete

[CreekDog]

240. Can't protect your kids from Britney, Lindsay, graphic video games...

Exploitive advertising, food that's bad for them, a selfish society.

That being the case, well, thank goodness you cannot also protect them from getting a bible.

If nearly everything has at least a chance to get through to kids to their detriment and that can't really be stopped, well, then thank goodness some good things, like a bible for instance, can get through to a kid to give the golden rule, faith, and grace a fighting chance in their lives.

[in_cog_ni_to]

242. Who says the Bible is a "GOOD THING?" Who says MY CHILD wants to "get the GOLDEN RULE?" Who says MY

CHILD wants YOUR FAITH and GRACE?" YOU? The Gideons? Jerry Falwell? Pat Robertson? James Dobson? WHO??? Not ME! and I am his mother. Who are YOU to tell ME that YOUR Bible is what my child needs?

[CreekDog]

261. I'm saying it's better than most of the crap out there

And yes, you need the golden rule, your kids need it and I need it.

Treat others as you would yourself want to be treated.

Name one religion or person that disagrees with that ethic.

Everyone needs that if we are going to live in a tolerant society.

And no, you don't have to agree with me for it to be so, since you're going to be snippy about it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

312. The problem IS...I don't need YOU telling ME or my son what we NEED.

Understand now? Religious freaks tend to make me "snippy." I live MY life the way I wish. You live your life the way you wish. You leave me alone and I will leave you alone. We'll all live happily ever after...until your RAPTURE comes. :eyes:

[CreekDog]

341. incognito: I don't believe in the rapture

Got that? Now, why don't you stop telling me who I am and what I believe.

Get your facts right.

The rapture is bogus as theology as I understand it. I don't want to offend anyone that does believe it. I am offended that you think I believe it and you have no basis in fact for saying that I believe it.

And you are grossly stereotyping me.

[in_cog_ni_to]

345. Grossly stereotyping you?

If the shoe fits... :eyes:

All you've done all day long on this thread is PREACH to people about what YOU think WE need from YOUR religion..

I've had my fill of your preaching for the day. Go read your Bible. Or better yet, go stand on a street corner and annoy a few more people who really don't wish to hear what you have to say.

[CreekDog]

354. The bible doesn't teach the rapture

The rapture is a teaching that barely predates the 19th century. No Catholic, Episcopalian, Orthodox or Lutheran who understood their own doctrine believes in the rapture.

Jesus is not coming three times --that's the problem with the rapture, which requires you to believe he is coming three times.

Now, please stop telling me what I believe.

[slutticus]

245. So??????????

Free tinder for the fireplace.

:D


:o



:hide:

[kenny blankenship]

246. If he's on the sidewalk and it's outside of school grounds DEMAND TO KNOW WHY

the kids are not being delivered ONTO school grounds by the bus. They should not be approachable by strangers while in the custody of the school system. The state can compel your children to attend school unless you are providing for their education yourself, but the state acquires a responsibility for their safety when it takes your kids from you each day. Demand that they deliver your kids ONTO school grounds, safe from interference from strangers.

[donco6]

364. They usually *are* delivered to school grounds.

But there are some kids who walk home, too. Strangers can't approach kids waiting for the buses, true, but only about 25 to 30% ride buses (depending greatly on the school - I can only say from my own experience). Once they're on public property, in loco parentis ends. We have no legal responsibility once their on their way home. Many court cases have settled this.

[kenny blankenship]

382. Then it's no concern of the school's in that case is it? However the school WAS concerned

--concerned enough to alert the parents in writing. My point is that if this is happening just outside the school, the kids should be safe from these people if being delivered to school: the bus should deposit them onto school grounds in the direct custody of school staff. It should not be possible for these sick fucks to approach the children between bus and school door. Or if it is happening, the parents should demand the school system carry out its legal responsibility for the kids' safety and alter the way they drop them off from the buses so that strangers will not have access to them. Demand to know why the kids are not being let off onto school grounds I said.

If on the other hand, these freaks are accosting children on their way home from school, the police should be notified to have a car with officers present to monitor what goes on, as they always are in the event of for example public marches and demonstrations, etc. This is so the children can know that their safety is important to their parents and the community, and that they are not being left to face these sick strange people completely on their own. The kids have every right to be assured that their safety is being guarded.

In every community across the land, there are special speed limit zones around schools, there are especially severe penalties for drug distribution in the vicinity of schools too. I would suggest parents concerned for the welfare of their children look into passing local ordinances banning the distribution of cultic, occult or religiously oriented literature or otherwise explicit literature to minor children within, oh say 1,000 yards, of a school yard.

[MonkeyFunk]

385. such a law

would be entirely unconstitutional.

Come on, be reasonable. A man sitting at a table giving out bibles isn't a threat to the children.

[kenny blankenship]

395. I think that would make a GREAT trial

And I'd love to see you get up in front of a jury and gallery of parents and try to defend the right of NeoNazis to distribute An Illustrated Mein Kampf for Kids to 4th graders on their way home from school. Or the Constitutional right of the robe wearing KKK to pass out free DVDs of Birth of a Nation or the Turner Diaries.
If Ted Haggard can target ten year olds, while they're away from their parents and teachers, for indoctrination on Monday, the KKK can set up their table in the exact same place on Tuesday. The NeoNazis will have to wait for Thursday or Friday, because NAMBLA will insist on passing out their pamphlets on Humpday.

When it comes to children and schools there is plenty of established room for laws that you call unconstitutional all you want, restricting what you can say and not say, or hand out and not hand out, or which change the usual meaning and proscriptions and prescriptions of laws for no other reason than that children are involved. People are funny like that. It would reasonable and acceptable for the people under discussion in this thread to go up to front doors, to knock and to ask the Mommy or Daddy if they would kindly pass along a freely donated Bible to however many kids lived there. Many Bibles would be accepted gladly--many would declined with a firm they already have one--provided by me--thank you very much. A few Bibles would be declined with an angry, silent "stay the hell away from my kids" glare. But when you target people's children and go out of your way to get at them when their parents aren't around, and when their teachers can't interpose themselves, people begin to suspect that YOU are the unreasonable one and the very fact that you are seeking an unmediated unsupervised contact with their kids makes you a threat. Why else would you go around their parents unless you thought their parents would object and stop you?

[donco6]

391. As I said in my post . . .

"the bus should deposit them onto school grounds in the direct custody of school staff. It should not be possible for these sick fucks to approach the children between bus and school door."

As I said, that already happens . . . when kids ride the bus. But not all kids ride the bus. It's just not vaugely feasible. No school district on earth has enough buses to transport *all* kids home - if that's what you're saying. And so kids *will* walk on public property to school, and people have the constitutional right to free speech on public property. Unless you LIKE the "No Free Speech" zones set up around the Conventions? I don't.

And as was already pointed out earlier, no freaks accosted any kids on their way home. They set up a table and handed them out and left. You can't GET less antagonistic than this. No bullhorns, no waving of dead fetuses, no blocking the sidewalk. It's the epitome of free speech.

And to equate free speech with a speed limit . . . well, that is just silly. Equating drug pushers with Bible pushers would be an extreme stretch in any court of law, no matter how much you would wish for it. So anyone - school or city - trying to abridge their right to do what they were doing would be facing a hefty, and unwinnable, lawsuit.

And finally, I just wonder . . . thinking as you do . . . why on earth would you *ever* let your kids out of your sight for one second? There's "cultic, occult or religiously oriented literature" EVEREWHERE! And most of it isn't handed out by old men behind a table.

[Fleshdancer]

247. What a great way to teach kids what to do when approached by strangers

or not. :grr:

[BuyingThyme]

249. Then it's a holiday.

No child can be coerced by the government into attending a school outside of which crazy religious propaganda will be distributed.

Take your son fishing. Tell him to tell his friends to take the day off. School's out.

[CreekDog]

256. The school's closed on Christmas too? It's all a conspiracy!

My goodness, a holiday with roots in religion, that originally had roots in a seasonal/non religious celebration.

Whatever will our children think if there are symbols in society and government that acknowledge a God that most of our citizens have believed in.

The horror!

[TommyO]

251. If it were my child

I would encourage them to take one, thank the gentleperson giving them out, and then very visibly tear it up and throw it into the nearest trashcan.

[CreekDog]

253. That's just rude

What the heck is wrong with you? I hope you either won't actually tell your kid to do that, or that you are not and will not become a parent.

What kind of world will our children have if parents tell them to "tear up" visibly something that was given to them with no malice?

How utterly ridiculous. You have lost your marbles.

[TommyO]

279. Thank you for being the parenting police

Quite frankly, I'm sick of people pushing their religion on other people.

[CreekDog]

282. Fine, feel that way, but two wrongs doesn't make a right

Consider that when you respond or suggest a response to other parents.

And I'm not the parenting police, but if you're being a dunderhead, I probably should tell you and you likewise tell me if I'm doing the same.

But I think I'm in the clear in saying that nothing warrants telling a kid to take a bible from a Gideon, then thank him for the bible, then tear it up in front of him on purpose to prove a point.

I would love to hear what Molly Ivins would say to that suggestion.

[Lurking Dem]

258. G-d forbid you use the experience as a teaching moment

on freedom of religion, deciding about religion for oneself, and tolerance.

[CreekDog]

260. Teaching moment of course, but don't teach disrespect

to your children.

That will come back to bite us. I'm guessing it already is.

[Lurking Dem]

264. Looks that way.

How sad.

[spoony]

286. Nice life lesson

that's how you deal with someone with different beliefs, son!

[Raskolnik]

339. Why would you want you kid to be an asshole? n/t

[Common Sense Party]

388. To carry on the family tradition?

:shrug:

[Lurking Dem]

389. .

:rofl:

[donco6]

392. -Zing!-

:rofl:

[donco6]

363. That's pretty nasty.

And what would your child be learning from that, exactly?

[knight_of_the_star]

254. At my PUBLIC high school

four years ago, as far as I know its still going on and its considered legal because technically the guy isn't on school grounds.

[CreekDog]

255. This thread has some terrible posts in it

So many of you have lost all sense of what's right/wrong, harmful and are villainizing old guys or gals doing what the Gideons have done for ages.

You can't stop so many things that your children might encounter, try as you might, and yet THIS, bible distribution is freaking so many of you out.

Freaking you out that some are proposing wildly out of proportion, uncooth, unkind and even harassing responses.

Nevermind that your children will learn from whatever you tell them to do in response. And by the way, to the "tear it up" guy, if you have a kid, I guarantee if they did that, your kid will regret doing it later on because it is wrong to be hurtful out of spite. That will be your fault.

I am incredulous at the lack of civility towards this legal, innocuous and possibly helpful activity. In fact, I'm ready to stand out there with the Gideon guy/gal to be of moral support in case some of the crazies here harass him.

This is an embarassment to DU and progressives. If they are talking about it at Freerepublic, I could not defend some of the reaction here, it is undefensible.

[Bluebear]

257. Wow, I know you are extremely concerned & troubled by this, but...

the parent did NOT feel it was innocuous. Also, how is this a "possibly helpful activity"?

[CreekDog]

259. I said it was innocuous and possibly helpful, not the parent

And I have explained why I don't think it is harmful.

But it's not just that I don't agree that it's harmful, it's that I'm taking issue with posters here who have in response totally overreacted to the Gideons handing out bibles.

To those that don't like their kids prosletytized, that's fine and understandable. What's not fine is overreacting and trying to attribute a sinister nature to the Gideon effort, suggesting the police or FBI harass the Gideon, suggesting that this effort on public property not be allowed...and the list goes on.

And to stop what? It's not to stop prostitutes or drug dealers or stop pornography or selfishness or littering...it's to stop a Gideon volunteer from handing out bibles to kids, which they did silently, respectfully, politely by warning the school of the activity and quickly.

All the fuss over this. That's why I'm troubled.

Oh yeah, and I was also called a fundy by some knucklehead on this thread. The "fundies" would never have me.

[Bluebear]

262. I still don't see how it is a helpful activity, but that's me. nt

[CreekDog]

267. Of course we can disagree about whether it's helpful

I was arguing against the slander and mischaracterization of the activity itself that happened in quite a few of the posts --though I don't think it occurred in your posts.

I don't happen to agree with everything the Gideons stand for, nor the fundies, nor nearly all fundamentalist Christians. But I won't get excited if they hand out bibles. Big deal.

[Bluebear]

292. It just seems stuntish to me

It doesn't sound sincere, handing out scriptures to school aged children who could scarcely comprehend it.

[CreekDog]

297. Kids can read a bible, they can bring it home for their parents...

If someone believes the bible is the word of God, it would be selfish for them to hoard it, and it would be selfless to share it with others.

Besides, don't underestimate children. Little, little kids get first communion and beforehand are taught exactly what that is, children go to Sunday school and learn the bible and/or go to confirmation classes, catechism, etc.

But at least the bible, which has a lot of examples of gruesome things, teaches that grace, mercy and love through self sacrifice trumps every sin since the beginning of time.

Yeah, I think that's a good thing for a child to learn in this day and age.

[Bluebear]

298. Grace, mercy and love can be taught absent a religious theme

If little kids go to first communion and receive scriptural lessons it should be at the choice of their parents, not anonymous old men who set up a table outside a school.

[Bluebear]

356. Hello?

[spoony]

287. Ah, calling people trolls

And not being brave enough to just do it outright. It's funny, because you're one of the most "concerned" people on this whole site. You're constantly "concerned" about things.

[Bluebear]

289. Newsflash: I could care less about your opinion.

PS I did not call them a troll, though I find it odd that the majority of their posting history seems to be on this topic.

And the snarky "GET OVER IT!" followed by the Christian benediction yesterday was a bit bizarre, but meanwhile...

Ciao, we won't be seeing each other around here again.

[CreekDog]

299. Most of my posting has not been on this topic (correct your statement)

I have 800+ posts on DU since 2003. A tiny fraction of those were in this thread and on religion. You've got no credibility if you can't get your facts straight.

And I did post the benediction and people were offended by it! Holy cow. I think they would have been less offended by the cussing I wanted to say originally, but thought it would be a bad reflection on the God I believe it to say that. That's why I included it.

And you bet, I'm concerned. Not concerned about a haircut mind you, or Gore's house, or Obama's middle name --again and again I step up and defend our folks unless they attack our own. The thing I'm concerned about is the craziness in this thread.

[Bluebear]

300. Never mind him

I won't be able to see his answer anyhow.

I'm glad to make your acquaintance, even though I don't agree with the propriety of the Gideons doing this.

I also think that calling in the FBI is not necessary :)

[CreekDog]

301. At least I never ignored or misrepresented you

[dogday]

271. Bibles are available in my Child's Elementary School Library

for checkout.... Sign one out like a library book... That surprised me....

[CreekDog]

272. It's a book. Libraries have books.

Why the surprise?

[dogday]

285. It's a book

That I believe in and I am still surprised they would allow it in the school library... I would think the Koran should be there as well as every other religious book, but they are not...

Render unto Caesar's what is Caesar and unto God what is God's....

School is state property, run off taxpayers dollars rendered unto Caesar (so to speak)

I am a true believer in separation of church and state because Jesus said so...

Caesar

[tammywammy]

319. Have you tried donating a Koran?

Most school libraries have a little budget and probably purchasing a Koran is towards the end of the list. And I think most libraries will gladly accept donated books.

[dogday]

324. This is a republican school district, no doubt about it..

They would probably report me to homeland security.... They would have a fit.. It is worth the look on their faces to do that.....

[tammywammy]

337. I'm just the kind of person that would donate one though

:)

It's good for children to have the opportunity to read the various religious texts. Plus, for a reasonable price, you'd have an excellent story to tell.

[Paulie]

273. Gideion - Judges chapter 6-9

Wow, what a nice peaceful, loving person, an example to all. :sarcasm:

[TreasonousBastard]

295. A little searching shows that this is going on a lot..

nationally, and some school districts are inviting it while others are banning it. There is, of course, quite a bit of litigation going on, and it's reached at least one Federal appeals court.

Many sets of bloomers are all knotted up on both sides over this, and it just proves once again that we still have vast amounts of time and resources to waste on silliness.

Run for the hills! The Gideons are giving out Bibles again!

[Beausoir]

311. Self Delete.

[orleans]

349. well, i know it always tends to make me feel like shit when someone

trivializes my concern over something by mocking me or informing me that i'm just being silly

"Many sets of bloomers are all knotted up on both sides over this, and it just proves once again that we still have vast amounts of time and resources to waste on silliness.

Run for the hills! The Gideons are giving out Bibles again!"

but i attribute it to their inability to show empathy for others, or their lack of understanding, or their personal issues of low self esteem displayed through their need to put someone else down in order to build themselves up and feel good about themselves.

and when someone's put-down or insult has to do with something i am concerned about pertaining to my child i wonder how involved or disengaged they are with their own child or if they even have a child

[CreekDog]

306. "The Gideons killed Kenny! You bastards!"

I have sunk to a new low.

[porque no]

314. That happens after 30 posts on one thread.

Got agenda?

[in_cog_ni_to]

325. Nah! pay no attention to that preaching behind the computer screen!

:eyes:

Agenda is putting it 'nicely.'

[onenote]

365. I"d say that there a lot of folks on this thread with an "agenda"

For many, that agenda is one that apparently reflects such disdain or fear of religion that they would subvert the First Amendment in support of that agenda.

[donco6]

376. *Gleefully* subvert the 1st Amend. from what I've read.

What I'm seeing is

* That there should be "No Free Speech" zones outside of schools for X distance (X being pretty much the distance from anyone's home to the school property line).

* No kids should be exposed to Christianity unless Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, Mormonism and NAMBLA is there at the same time.

* Schools are responsible for kids every waking second of the day, from doorstep to doorstep.

* Schools should be harassed for any societal issue parents disagree with.

* Parents should not have to be bothered explaining religion to their kids.

* Gideons are probably child molesters.


Standard disclaimer: I am a member of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. I am not a Christian. I am not religious.

[tammywammy]

383. I think that's pretty much it

And that's what I find scary, that so many on here are willing to give up rights because it concerns religion.

I don't want anyone subverting Constitutional rights. I don't like the KKK either, but sure as hell they do have the right to free speech.

[CreekDog]

342. I don't have an agenda, there was just a lot of discussion here

And I wanted to respond to what I thought were the worst parts of that discussion --the excesses and baseless statements.

That's all I was trying to do. You can even ask my church friends if I try to convert people --they would laugh hysterically.

[Beausoir]

348. Respectfully, from what you have posted in this thead, asking your "church friends" to vouch for

you as a non-zealot seems to be a bit of an oxy-moron.

Now...hit me up again with that 'heartfelt' benediction. I gather from your posts that you like to use the benediction in place of a curse.

You've stated so right here in this thread.

Benediction = substitute for cursing. You have stated that more than once.

In my 43 years, I've never ONCE run across a true Christian who would substitute the benediction for a cursing rampage.

Time for you to take the mask off. You aren't fooling anyone.

[CreekDog]

352. Having church friends doesn't make me a zealot

You can ask my non church friends if you like also.

As for a mask, meet me, you will see there is none. I dare say I didn't get any more angry at the excesses on this thread than you got initially at the prospect of the Gideons handing out bibles in front of your child's school.

It was that out of proportion reaction, mostly from other people, not so much from you, that certainly got me more emotionally involved than I expected. Yet, I tried to address the excesses (fair amount of company in those responses by the way) that I saw.

Many of you guys simply overdid it in this thread.

And by the way, saying something nice when you want to say something that isn't nice, it's actually what we are all supposed to do when we are angry.

But I don't like the accusation of a "mask". First, I never accused you of anything, yet you are calling me someone who has a mask, like I'm on some greater mission.

Search my posts on other threads. You will see in recent weeks I've spent a lot of time defending John Edwards over nonsensical criticisms over his house and haircut, I've defended David Obey against some absolutely untrue allegations that he is pro-war and I criticized Dennis Kucinich when he savaged the Democratic House Leadership as being pro-war.

My agenda, if I have any at DU is to defend what I care about, and that's pretty typical around here. Occasionally that includes Christians, but only when they are smeared as a group in a guilt by association way.

But keep thinking I'm the bogey-man if you like. In my church here south of San Francisco, as a traditional Lutheran, I have taken a bit of heat for being a Democrat, one who contributes to Democrats, one who is unashamed to support Democrats and campaign for them. On Easter Sunday, I was surrounded by guys savaging Nancy Pelosi for her trip to Syria and I argued forcefully that they had no proof that she had done anything wrong, that she was a good public servant and that she was a smart politician. The easier thing would have been to nod my head and keep quiet. But that also would be false. To have kept quiet here in the face of stereotyping of Christians and maligning entire groups of people would have been an act of cowardice and I knew it. Just like on Easter, honesty here meant speaking up for what I thought was being maligned without factual basis.

So the next time you think you know me and my agenda. Prove to me that you know me and what my agenda is and I will agree with you. But you are so far off, it's clear you only know a caricature of me, not the real thing, and you are too foolish to recognize what you don't know.

[kryckis]

320. Yes

Hell, I live in the most secular country on the planet, in one of the least religious places, and we got bibles when I was in school. I doubt it was officially endorsed, but I think I got like 4 stacked away somewhere. It's not like I was forced to read, or care.

[sakabatou]

336. As long as they're not on school property,

it's legal, I think.

[BreweryYardRat]

359. Go smack the school administrators. This goes against the spirit of "separation of church and state"

[donco6]

362. No don't. We're tired of being smacked . . .

. . . especially for things we cannot control.

This is a public sidewalk. The Gideons are simply exercising their right to free speech. There's nothing the school can do about it, except inform parents that it's going to happen, which they did. They cannot come on school property, and the school cannot endorse them - neither of which has happened. There's nothing else the administrators can do.

[tammywammy]

370. Oh, don't go and use facts

It's much more fun to scream about religious-freaks taking children and brainwashing them with Bibles!!!!! You'd think by reading this thread the school was passing out Bibles, giving communion and leading the school in prayer. :eyes:

[donco6]

371. Or encouraging child molestation by Gideons.

Jeebus. I thought we were more rational than that. Guess I was wrong.

[boobooday]

361. Free books for all school children!

But demand a better selection. :-)

[Beausoir]

377. Ain't that the truth! Imagine how much good the Gideons could do if they donated REAL books to kids

Imagine, if they saved the hundreds of thousands of dollars to recruit new believers and instead, donated that money to school literacy programs.

Just imagine how much good they could do.

[Raskolnik]

394. Or, imagine how many books we could buy those kids if we used the money spent on DU

Imagine, if we saved the thousands of dollars to recruit new believers and instead, donated that money to school literacy programs.

Just imagine how much good we could do.

Or was your suggestion only meant for those with whom you disagree?

[DFW]

369. This would have been stopped immediately here

My kids went to elementary school here in Germany.
This kind of thing is frowned upon here, and it would
have been the same no matter what religion was being sold.

Dave Barry wrote, in his 50th birthday column, that it took
him 50 years to realize many tings. One of them was that he
realized that those who were most eager to share their religious
views with you are often those least eager to have you share
your religious views with them. I have found this, too.

Although Christian traditions here go back a thousand years
before Europeans started bringing them uninvited to the American
Continent, they are not brandished about by the locals anywhere
nearly to the extent they seem to be in the USA. I wonder why this is?
Maybe because after everything from the Inquisition to the Third
Reich and its Vatican cohorts of the era, many Europeans (not all: see
Poland)have become more comfortable with the separation of church and
state than we have. In the high school my daughters went to, religion
was a required subject--the students learned ABOUT it, but were not
forced to practice it. The choice was theirs.

My views, aa well as my wife's (raised as a Catholic, now retired),which my
daughters seem to have adopted--for now--, are basically this: whatever faith
you follow, if any, is fine. Whatever you believe is fine. Pax tecum. Trying
to get someone else to believe what you believe is not fine. If you are so
insecure in your beliefs that you can only confirm them by indoctrinating
others, then you must not have a very great confidence in your beliefs.
Work it out for yourself, but don't stand on some corner and try to tell
my kids they should believe what you do. NO they shouldn't. They should
find for themselves what they believe, and I don't care if it's Jesus
or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Zoroaster or somewhere in between.

I'll tell you one problem I find, coming from the South as I do: if
someone believes something, it's called faith, and is their absolute
right. But if it becomes no longer what they believe, but what they KNOW,
then they KNOW that anyone who believes something different is wrong.
That's when the bullets and bombs start flying.

The people mentioned in the original post may have been completely within
their legal rights under Free Speech laws to push their Bibles. But would
they be OK with groups of Muslims next to them pushing Korans, or Hindus
pushing Shiva, or Jews pushing the Torah? I wouldn't want anyone pushing
ANYTHING outside my kid's school, be it religious literature, drugs, junk
food, booze or tobacco products. They can all be, in one way or another,
addictive, and I wouldn't want my child involved with any of them until
they were mature enough to make that decision for themselves.

I was once asked to contribute to a group of Christians to pay for them
to travel to India to convert the Indians to Christianity. I said I
would contribute if they would organize a group of Hindus to come to their
community to try to convert Christians to Hinduism. They were horrified at
my suggestion, but saw nothing wrong with their own intentions. As long as
that is the case, we will have problems--and we do have problems.

[donco6]

372. Then go pick them up.

"The people mentioned in the original post may have been completely within their legal rights under Free Speech laws to push their Bibles."

Yes, they were.

"But would they be OK with groups of Muslims next to them pushing Korans, or Hindus pushing Shiva, or Jews pushing the Torah?"

They would have to be, since it's guaranteed in the Constitution.


"I wouldn't want anyone pushing ANYTHING outside my kid's school, be it religious literature, drugs, junk food, booze or tobacco products. They can all be, in one way or another, addictive, and I wouldn't want my child involved with any of them until they were mature enough to make that decision for themselves."

You know, I don't either. But sometimes I don't get what I want. And that's why the letter went out, so parents would know that, if they didn't want their kids exposed to Christian literature being handed out on public property, they could come pick them up after school. That's the most they could do. The rest is up to you as a parent.

[Beausoir]

373. Outstanding post. MUST READ.

This post deserves its own thread.

[DFW]

378. Oh, I don't know about that.......

I'm sure to get an explanation as to why I'm dead wrong--point by point! LOL!!

[Beausoir]

379. Yes, you probably will.

And maybe you'll get lucky, as I did and even get a special prayer!

Enjoy your day.

[DFW]

381. Thanks!

Rest of the evening, actually. Central European Time here.
I won't be back Stateside until Thursday, and even then, I
won't even make it back to Texas. A quick run to northern
Virginia and DC and then right back on station over here
until July (there is no rest for the weary).

[DFW]

374. I didn't have to.

Things like that never happened at the German school my kids went to,
and although they are now in college in the States, they are old enough
to decide what, if any, religious propaganda to pick up on. So far, it's
none of the above, but if it changes, then they're old enough to decide.

I think, anyway (when I look at Tom Cruise, I begin to wonder.........).

[ejbr]

375. Did you have him spit in his face? Just askin' n/t

[Gruenemann]

396. We rolled joints with the pages

of the little Gideons they handed out at my university. Thanks, Gideons!