So, we have the option of investing in 401(k) plans, etc. with our employment. Are we wrong to?

[blondeatlast]

Knowing that some of the investment money might wll go to corporations that will more than likely screw us over in one way or another?

[phantom power]

1. There is usually a "money market" or bond option -- no equities.

[BeFree]

2. Real Estate!! The value never goes down!

Oil futures!
Gold!

Oysters!
Oysters? Yep, some people invested in Oysters. Fools!!

[pokerfan]

3. I want to say one word to you. Just one word.

Are you listening?

Plastics.

[customerserviceguy]

4. Yep, as was said above

There's always a money market fund. Right now, the returns suck, but as interest rates rise, the yields will improve.

The current savings account rates are just as unnatural as the 17-18% money market rates that we saw in 1981.

[blondeatlast]

6. Edit: misread your post. Thanks for the info. nt

[MadHound]

5. If you want to have more control over where your investments go,

Opt out of your employer's 401(k) and open up your own Roth IRA. Then you can invest in what you want, including what are known as "white hat" mutual funds, which are made up of companies that are socially and environmentally responsible. Don't poo-poo these either, their performance is comparable, if not better than more mainstream mutual funds. Also you can invest in individual corporations that you approve of.

I've been dealing with "white hats" for years now, and in this latest downturn they lost either little or no money. Of course a lot of the corporations are foreign based organizations, windmill companies, etc.

Check with a broker before investing however.

[whistler162]

8. Bad advice if the company does any type of matching

to the amount you invest in the 401k.

Put up to the maximum matched in the 401k and then add to a Roth.

[David Zephyr]

14. The Roth gives them more control, but no income tax deduction for the contribution.

The finanical return that the Roth earns is non-taxable, but the benefit to workers of the 401K is that they can write down their gross/taxable income. Your point about "control" is a very sound point which is why I wrote what I did below.

[Oregone]

7. Are you wrong to purchase the right to profit off other's labor?

Who knows....something to think about.


Another thing to think about....you don't have the right to profit off your own labor, as an employee. Will your own ownership of other companies mitigate your personal exploitation? Or is it merely a symbolic gesture to make you happy with a system that essentially keeps you down?

[customerserviceguy]

9. When you buy stock

you purchase the right to a business's income. Often, you are purchasing someone else's investment in that business. The employee gets wages whether or not the business makes a large profit or a small one, or maybe none at all.

If the initial investment wasn't there, perhaps the job might not be, either.

Now a lot of what goes on in the stock market, such as selling short, etc., is just pure gambling, without any relationship to capital formation, and I'm not defending it for a minute. But not all stock ownership is exploitation, the smart companies make stock available to their employees at reasonable terms. My company even has a free shares plan, available simultaneously to management, and both union and non-union labor. We all get an equal number of shares, without regard to salary, longevity, or full/part time status.

[Oregone]

10. You purchase the right to profit off another's labor

"The employee gets wages"

Which is the cost of production, much as machines and cubicles also have costs. They have no right to the profits generated from their labor, regardless of its quality.


"If the initial investment"

And if that initial investment was made a 100 years ago, or made with money generated off an investment made 100 years ago? You are then talking about infinite ROI on an investment. And if that initial investment was made in a time of mass exploitation, you are talking about infinite ROI on blood money.


"But not all stock ownership is exploitation"

No, but most is. What you are describing about your company sounds reasonable at face value, though that could be an exception to the general rule.

[customerserviceguy]

15. You purchase a return on your investment

or you buy out someone else's investment.

You assume a fractional ownership in the "stuff" that an employee uses to do a job, a place for them to sell their labor.

[Oregone]

17. And that return is from profits generated from other's labor

And that return is infinite as time becomes arbitrarily close to infinity.

Reasonable or alien? Depends if you are an owner or a laborer

[customerserviceguy]

19. That's the bargain that the employee makes with the employer

If you want to profit 100% from your own labor, then start your own business. If you don't have the money needed to start your own business, then sell shares in your business so that someone else can invest in it. But don't be surprised if they want a little something for the risk of investing in you.

[Cal Carpenter]

11. What can ya do?

Sure, there's a principle at play here, and for those who are somehow lucky enough to buck this particular aspect of the system, more power to them. Hold your principles and hold them firm, they may be all you got!

But the economic system is such that you have little choice about certain things if you want to be able to retire someday and not die sick, broke and hungry*** which, honestly, is the plight of a lot of people. It's frustrating to see people act like it is a personal moral failing to have a retirement fund, or to drive a car, or whatever we each do to feed into the system. Shit, paying taxes is feeding into the system of war and the military industry, for example, and very few regular people can manage to get away with avoiding that (except the rich who have a way of getting around it, but that's something else altogether..)

The reality is that the economic system is feeding off of *us*, and we all are tied into it to some degree, and there is little we can do about it insofar as consumer choice outside of symbolic measures. Like you said, the corporations will more than likely screw us over in one way or another.. So you risk your retirement and are still sucked into that system in a dozen different ways...Example - so you think Conagra's a bad company and you feel good about not owning their stock. You choose your food brands carefully...but even so, 3 or 4 ingredients in that 'natural organic' frozen lasagna could very well have been bought and sold by, or processed by, or trucked by, or distributed by Conagra or one of it's subsidiaries at some point in it's life cycle. The same scenario could be true of any product, any food, any mode of transportation or reusable shopping bag or whatever else we do to try to get out of this on a personal level..

It's high time we stop blaming ourselves and each other for our 'personal choices' (as if most people on this planet are lucky enough to even have substantial choice about much of anything) and start focusing on the forest rather than the trees. It's virtually impossible to get out of it as an individual, or to effect it in any tangible way. Collective action is a must. I don't know if or when collective action could happen, all I know is we won't get any closer if we shame people to think that their personal choices, given the way things are, are the problem..That mentality just perpetuates the hyper-individualism which is part of the problem. It's a divide and conquer thing.


(***Then there's the whole fear the the market is gonna go completely to shit and you'll lose it all anyway, but a) if that happens, unless you have millions and millions saved, it wouldn't have helped you anyway and b) that's a whole nother thread, lol...)

[liberal_at_heart]

16. I have a son with autism, a daughter who wants to be a veterinarian, and

three parents who have been irresponsible and have no retirement money what so ever that we have to help financially. So, I have no choice but to invest in the stock market.

[Seneca]

12. Do it yourself

Be your own investment counselor. 401(k)'s are attractive for 2 reasons - people like the feeling that they are handling their retirement, and the tax deferrals.

They are laden with fees which erode your savings and tax benefits. Forget them, and do it yourself.

[David Zephyr]

13. It's a great tax write off from your income each year, but....

How often does your plan allow you to make changes? If you can only make a change four or less times a year, then it's best to make the 401K investment, but at this time I'd just park it in an insured money market fund within the 401K (if they have one) because the stock and bond market is just too volatile and you won't be able to make changes quickly if you needed, too.

You may only get 2% on your money, but you are also benefitting from the lowering your income tax base, too.

[Statistical]

18. Couple questions....

1) Does your employer offer a match? If so and you opt out you are simply taking a voluntary pay cut. Pure and simple. If employer offers a 5% match and you don't take it your lifetime compensation will be 5% less.

2) Could you use a lower tax bill at end of year. Traditional 401K is tax deferred so if you put $5,000 in your income for tax purposes is $5,000 less.

3) Check the investment options likely there either a Treasury bond fund and/or corporate bond fund.

Treasuries = very low risk but very low return.
Bond fund = slightly more risk but still very low & higher return.

You don't need to put 100% of your money into high risk stocks.

Something like provides a max of asset classes and some protection from volatility.
30% treasuries and/or money market fund
30% corporate bonds
40% equities

[NNN0LHI]

20. Better to get a defined retirement plan if people can

That is what I would be striving for if entering the job market today.

Don

[William Z. Foster]

21. yes

There could not be a more clear moral choice than this.