Sorry, I haven't been following this BP thing too closely. How different is it from this?

[Cruzan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ixtoc_I_oil_spill

[Gman]

1. It happened before the world began for many here at DU

therefore it never happened.

The fact it that Ixtoc I is the worst spill ever. Nevermind that for years we here in Texas had to take a bottle of nail polish remover with us to the beach to wipe tar off our feet.

[Statistical]

4. The thing I don't understand is all the predictions of "world killer", wiping out all ocean life.

Why are there any fish in the Ocean post 1979?

If the world's oceans survived Ixtoc I why would DWH be different?

[Gman]

5. Don't look for reason here

there is none. Only out of control emotions.

[Fumesucker]

7. Do you include yourself in that description?

Or are you the only one able to control your emotions?

[Gman]

9. One of a relative few

on this issue... (on THIS issue, I say!)

[Fumesucker]

13. We are all the hero in our own story..

I've pretty much been staying out of the oil spill threads, I used to work in the oil field and seeing the workers attacked kind of upsets me. I have no problem castigating the decision makers but the low level grunts who actually do the hard and dirty work are not the ones making the decisions so they don't bear the responsibility.

[Gman]

14. I never worked in the oil fields

although I know a few guys that did and my brother did briefly. It's hard dirty work.

It's the spoiled brats here that do the attacking of the workers. Usually the ones that have probably never had a job, much less and heaven forbid doing hard dirty work.

[BeFree]

17. Have you?

Have you ever done hard dirty work? I doubt it.

No one is blaming the workers, we are blaming Tony Haywards of the world.

[Fumesucker]

19. Eh, I've seen a lot of posts gloating over the fact that the offshore oil industry is being closed..

And no recognition or sympathy at all that it's going to mean the loss of pretty decent paying jobs for tens of thousands who bear no responsibility..

There's sympathy for everyone else this is going to effect, fishermen, hotel workers and so on but not for the low level oil field workers.

Hopefully they'll be able to learn how to say "Do you want fries with that?" like the rest of us.

[BeFree]

20. Really?

I haven't seen that at all. This "no sympathy for low level oil field workers"

Do you think the boycott of BP and gas in general is directed at the workers?
Or is this just more bullshit?

[Fumesucker]

22. It's easier to see when you or someone you know is the target..

It's similar to the way people with a high melanin content in their skin are generally more sensitive to bigoted and racist statements than those who are melanin challenged.

It may not be directed exactly at the workers but there is zero recognition on DU that shutting down the offshore oil fields will hurt a great many people who bear no blame for what is happening.

I don't work there and haven't for many years now but it's clear to me that DU does not care one whit for the fate of those oil field workers who will end up getting jobs at Burger King or something similar if they are lucky.

[BeFree]

23. No blame?

Wait, we are all to blame for this, but not the oil workers? That doesn't compute.

Tell ya what, take your case to an out of work, self employed shrimper, and see if you can get them to feel sympathy for the oil industry.

This angle of yours sure is a weird one, bitching at DU for not taking up a collection for maybe one day laid off gulf oil workers, when the damage done to the gulf is not even tallied up yet.

[Fumesucker]

25. They are no more to blame than any of us..

Just people doing a hard, dirty and dangerous job that takes them away from their families for weeks at at time.

I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth, I said nothing about taking up a collection for anyone at all and that includes oil workers.

[BeFree]

28. Yeah sorry 'bout that

You are NOT taking up a collection for those poor widdle oil field workers.

[MyNameGoesHere]

15. Well if we haven't detroyed the ocean yet we need to do a better job.

I mean humans have wiped out quite a few species of animals, making great headway into eradication of the rain forest, and almost got the atmosphere to toxic levels. But that ocean is a bitch. Humans better get busy and dump more shit into it. With our track record I am POSITIVE we can destroy it in a decade or less.

[dipsydoodle]

8. Eucalyptus oil is easier

and clears your head at the same time. :)

[kestrel91316]

11. I never heard of Ixtoc before the BP leak, and I was born in 1957.

Of course, I was in vet school 1978-1982 and, other than Reagan being shot, I never paid any attention to the news. Didn't have the brain space. Never watched tv, just studied.

[AnArmyVeteran]

29. I've surfed Galveston every day at times and I hated those tar balls, even before 79.

Even way before 1979 tar balls would come ashore and litter the beach. Oil companies have been polluting our oceans since they began. I'm glad public awareness is at an all time high right now because maybe we can finally shove though tough regulations to stop this madness. And we need regulations that not just give corporations 'token fines'. We need to be able to imprison offenders. Oil companies think fines are just a way of doing business. It's chump change to them. The only way to hurt them is by putting them in jail.

btw: I love your tagline about what Jesse said about waterboarding Cheney. I liked how Ventura was a no nonsense guy who would speak his mind without all the filters a typical politician talks through. It was so damned refreshing.

[Statistical]

2. Very similar except much deeper water.

Ixtoc I ultimately was only sealed by relief wells .... 9 months later.
3 million barrels. That is an average daily flow rate of about 12,000 bpd.

This leak is larger 12K - 19K daily but "could" be sealed in <4 months.

[BeFree]

10. Except

Ixtoc had a lot of the 'loose ends' burned off. Y'know, the vapor stuff like benzene, toulene and many others. Just look at the burning flame above the Ixtoc flow.

Now, all those vapors are being mixed into the water creating the possibility of saturation, which is making the water deadly polluted.

This region is probably 10 times more biologically richer (Miss. River Delta)

The gulf sea life took a big hit from Ixtoc. Well, that's what the biologists who study such things say. Y'know, real experts.

This pollution has the potential to harm an unimaginable number of species.
This really is the worst environmental catastrophe ever.

But if it makes ya'll feel better by downplaying the problem... can't say I blame you.

[marions ghost]

16. +1

good points

Biologists were repressed during Reagan--I know, I'm related to 4 of them (in marine science)who struggled through those years, seeing funding cut in the middle of longterm studies, etc. One of them raises animals for toxicology research, as a direct result of Exxon Valdez. Monitoring, not consulting or predicting, is what biologists are relegated to now.

Murka is very suspicious of Biologists and Climatologists.

Kill The Messenger x(

[Gman]

26. Benzene, toluene and other organic compounds are not water soluable

and do not stay in the water. As soon as the pressure and temperature are right they will be released.

[BeFree]

27. so

Released at 5,000 feet deep, how long do the organic compounds stay in the water?

And what it the chemical reaction with the water at 2,300 psi?

What effect do the dispersants have?

Do the compounds break down any on the way to being released into the air?

These are the differences between Ixtoc and this. Can you see that?

[Gman]

30. 6 member carbon rings are relatively stable

and not prone to "break down" in water. (BTW, anything that ends with "ene" is a 6 member carbon ring). Maybe at 2300 psi of water or whatever it is there may or may not be some reactions with something but I would think it would be a relatively very insignificant amount. Dispersants have to do with breaking up the globs of oil. And don't actually react with the oil. The chemicals that make up the dispersant are more the threat than what they can produce when combined with crude oil.

Organic chemistry is completely different from the basic high school chemistry everyone learns. It does not follow the same "rules" as other forms of chemistry. Organic chemical reactions are generally very slow as opposed to basic chemistry. For example, you can have a fast and active reaction combining vinegar and baking soda. Organic chemistry reactions are not like that. They are slow and happen over time. This is not to say that there are not lethal organic chemicals being released because, of course, there are. I'm saying that whatever it is coming out of the sea floor is pretty much what it is when it reaches the surface and washes ashore.

[nebenaube]

18. Now those are new numbers...

I tend to think it's more on the order of 40k bpd - 65k bpd.

[mix]

3. Ixtoc I was in 160 feet of water...DWH in 5,000. feet, making

it more difficult to stop.

[Statistical]

6. The irony is the shallow water didn't help @ Ixtoc I or at Australian leak.

or Iranian leak.

In all 3 instances the only thing that stopped the well was a relief well(s) making the ocean depth rather irrelevant.

Some people (not you but in general) make it seem like DWH is the first time something like this has happened and are surpised at how BP can't just "stop the flow".

The Australians tried for 4 months and ultimately nothing on the ocean floor worked. A separate relief well shut the flow.
The Mexicans tried for 9 months and ultimately nothing on the ocean floor worked. A separate relief well shut the flow.
The Mexicans tried for 26 months and ultimately nothing on the ocean floor worked. A separate relief well shut the flow.

My prediction:
The Americans tried for 6-9 months and ultimately nothing on the ocean floor worked. A separate relief well shut the flow.

[highplainsdem]

12. There are several major differences, reasons why this BP disaster is worse.

1) If the 70,000-barrel-a-day estimate some scientists have made is correct, this leak is already worse than Ixtoc, and could end up much worse before a relief well stops this.

2) According to that Wikipedia article, which I've posted about elsewhere, "Pemex claimed that half of the released oil burned when it reached the surface, a third of it evaporated, and the rest was contained or dispersed." Much less of the oil from this BP spill is being burned or contained.

3) According to the Wikipedia article, the use of Corexit was limited after the Ixtoc spill. So far BP is refusing to limit its use of Corexit, which has been a major concern to scientists.

4) The flow rate of the Ixtoc spill was reduced greatly within weeks. We still have little assurance that BP will have any success in stemming the flow of oil till a relief well is successful.

5) We had months to prepare barriers along Texas beaches before the Ixtoc spill reached it.

6) The BP spill is affecting much more ecologically sensitive areas, including wetlands and reefs, currently the deep reefs in the Gulf, but with the reef along the Keys also at risk.

7) Because of its location, the BP spill is much more likely to spread pollution far beyond the Gulf.

8) Because of its location, the BP spill will have a much greater impact on fishing and tourism and the economy of Gulf states and ultimately the economy of our country and other countries. Don't underestimate the impact on real estate.

[BeFree]

21. Uh oh

You just blew the "Ixtoc was worse or just as bad" bullshit right out of the water.

All is I see is the 'expert' fish flopping around on their arses.

Otherwise they'd swim back in and defend themselves, eh?

:puke:

[Karenina]

24. Location, location, location... timing

AND Murphy's Law. The "perfect storm" manifesting as an extinction level event. So ist es...