Election 2000: was it a coup d'etat?

[Stinky The Clown]

The question was not intended to be hyperbolic. In your view, was the US election of 2000, with all the odd machinations, particularly in Bush-controlled Florida, a coup d'etat or simply electoral shenanigans?

[aquart]

1. It was a bloodless coup. Very slickly done.

Executed by members of the energy/oil industry and their henchmen, coincidentally. Enron was way up there, helping out.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

11. +1

[Enthusiast]

51. I agree with you.

It was well planned and executed. The SCOTUS was involved because their decision was ridiculous.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

118. MY STOMACH TURNS EVERY TIME I REMEMBER THIS

[dotymed]

151. A continuation of a long term plan.

Imo, it started before the JFK assassination. Poppy Bush later became the head of the CIA and got a lot of practice rigging elections (among other black-ops), then on to the Whitehouse. They patiently packed the SCOTUS, and got their "ducks in a row." It took a generation, but "they" did it. It was financed by MIC and corporate money. The "ruling class." JFK they feared, would become another FDR and help the masses, so they eliminated him. We currently, survive in their utopia. Slave wages, public financed solutions for their manufactured calamities. No risks to their growing wealth. Their future's so bright, they gotta wear shades. Really? A drunk, inarticulate, AWOL coward put in power by their paid for SCOTUS? No way to check our "votes?" We are a Fascist, belligerent nation with no compassion for our citizens and no way to "vote the scoundrels out." We are the change we have been waiting for. The slower we react, the further the thieves are entrenched.

[Radical Activist]

76. Yep.

[librechik]

83. without a doubt. Only difference is, no General Uncle Sam ruling over us

They didn't even have to really use the military. We just bent over and let them do it.

[Raster]

85. "This coup d'etat brought to you by the Petroleum Mafia and the Military Industrial Complex."

Peace and alternate energy, just not in your lifetime.

[Sebastian Doyle]

90. Not exactly bloodless.

Granted, the blood wasn't on 12/12/2000. That came about 10 months later. And really hasn't stopped since then. :evilfrown:

[Raster]

95. Thank you, Sebastian. Point made.

:kick:

[peace frog]

137. [phone]

Bloody November.

[WCGreen]

120. Yep. it was a coup that was "legitimized" by Big Tony....

[truebrit71]

167. +1000

nt

[burnsei sensei]

169. It was a coup for sure.

Slickly done, but not so slickly done as to escape notice and resentment.
Read Vincent Bugliosi concerning it.
Historians will have much to do on the 2000 usurpation.

[willing dwarf]

2. How can you even ask?

The answer was in plain sight for all to see. The election was stolen, and then "blessed" by the supreme court. It was indeed a bloodless coup.

The question now is have the people who seized control in 2000 given any of it up, or are we still dealing with the same nightmare just being run by fresher faces? I'm afraid we're learning the answer to that puzzle now.

[Dr Morbius]

3. "Electoral shenanigans" = stolen election.

The election of 2000 was stolen. And it was also lost by the Gore camp, who (in 20/20 retrospect) should have insisted all the votes in Florida be recounted, in accordance with Florida law at the time. This ruling could not have been overturned by SCOTUS, I believe.

There's no difference between (successful) electoral shenanigans and a coup. It's an unlawful assumption of power either way.

By the way, I heard recently that some six million Americans were denied the opportunity to vote in 2008. Makes me wonder how big Obama's margin would have been in a fairly run election! I think he would have broken 70 million, easy.

[Art_from_Ark]

16. The Florida State Supreme Court ruled that the votes should be counted

In other words, it ruled-- unanimously-- in Al Gore's favor.
That ruling is what prompted the US Supreme Court to stick its nose in the whole affair

[mod mom]

38. Since I don't recall the constitution stating the SCOTUS selects the president-YES!

Voters disenfranchised, shenanigans by Kathryn Harris et al, all gave way to * cronies on the SC :mad:

[Art_from_Ark]

45. And I kept thinking, with all those shenanigans going on,

someone was going to do some serious jail time for interfering with a Federal election. Silly me.

[mod mom]

46. I'm from Ohio & worked on the OH '04 investigation. I thought once in power the Dem Party

would see to it that those who stole 2 elections would see jail time and that major changes preventing future stolen elections would occur. Silly me.

:hi:

[Enthusiast]

53. Silly you and silly me.

:hi:

[Echo In Light]

80. Silence = Consent...besides, they ALL knew it was PNAC/Patriot Act/new phony war time

[dotymed]

155. Very disheartening

and it makes it obvious that America is not run by "elected" officials....

[Dr Morbius]

71. If you'll recall, the Gore camp wanted to recount in three counties, not the whole state.

And the Florida law at the time was to recount the whole state.

[Art_from_Ark]

127. Yes, I recall that, and there were several reason for that

Think of the logistics involved-- First is assembling a team to monitor the recount in each of the 67 counties In addition, as I recall, the person asking for the recount has to pay for it. So why ask for a recount in rural counties that normally go Republican anyway? And why ask for a recount in counties that voted for Gore? Under normal circumstances, that would be a waste of resources. So the Gore team decided to go after the largest counties which usually go Democratic but were showing the greatest irregularities. I don't think the Gore team understood the Republican fraud and corruption extended statewide at that time. And when the recount happened, you may recall that the Republicans threw every obstacle in the path of the Democrats-- legal, and otherwise. Remember the vote counting at Dade County that was shut down by a bunch of loudmouthed Republican agitators? Do you remember when Leon County Judge N. Sanders Saul ordered the Democrats to ship three truckloads of ballots in from south Florida, and when they finally arrived after great expense 3 days later, the SOB wouldn't even look at them? And that SOB accepted an invitation to a freeper event in Hilton Head, S.C. after that.

[Art_from_Ark]

129. By the way, Florida law stated a candidate could request a MANUAL recount

on a county basis. See (4)(a) in the link below:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010702160638/http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0102/SEC166.HTM&Title=-%3e2000-%3eCh0102-%3eSection+166

[Senator]

130. I recall that being part of the bogus RW propaganda

First, it's not my intent to single you out about this limited recollection, because I agree with the general notion of the Gore camp's failure being an essential part of it all. And, far too many people only remember the media circus (as is the intent).

It's just that then, as now, much of the DC-Euphemedia Analstocracy attention (including DC-Dems like Gore & Co.) was dominated by RW lies and delusions. (Like false-meme/irrelevancies such as "popular vote," "it was a close election," "safe harbor deadlines," and "didn't win his home state" -- all bunk.)

But as to this specific matter, there was no method to demand a "whole state" recount under FL law. Election contests were only allowed county by county and required some probable-cause-like suspicion of irregularity. The bush bullies were doing the same in different places. Also, as soon as the bush lie machine used that reality to attack Gore for simply following the lawful procedure, he did go on TV and proffered that he'd be happy to recount the whole state. The thieves refused his offer.

Gore's real failure to lead came after the High Court Treason when he capitulated instead of demanding the solution that Justice Breyer offered in his dissent -- that Congress disallow the unlawful FL electors.

His current rationalization for that historic failure involves a ridiculous claim of fear of "violent revolution" (as if he had the right to "save us" from that anyway).

---

[JHB]

135. If I recall correctly, a full statewide recount would have required Bush's consent...

...and that was something George "I won! I won! Gimmegimmegimme!" Bush was not going to give.

Therefore, the Gore team pick and chose which counties it would petition for recount.

[olegramps]

159. What is ironic is this was done by the "State's Rights" anti-federal Republicans.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

119. YES, THIS THE REAL QUESTION NOW

[Name removed]

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[willing dwarf]

5. Ten years = a generation of voters

If people don't know what happened, they can't see how it effects what is happening now.

[Name removed]

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[Just-plain-Kathy]

12. I would have a lot more respect of our party if they'd held the last administration accountable.

I find it very hard to move on. Our country has been stolen from us.

[Name removed]

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[Dr.Phool]

30. I was on the Florida Voting Machine Task Force.

We discovered more ways to steal an election than you'd care to know. And, they used different techniques in different parts of the state. Former Atty. General Janet Reno agreed with us. And when we gave Sen. Bob Graham our findings, he introduced legislation to correct it. But, it died in committee.

We study it so we can get definitive answers, and try to prevent it from happening again.

Trouble moving on? Think of how much better off we'd probably be with 8 years of Al Gore at the helm, instead of 8 years of Bush on vacation.

"Get over it"? Is that you Antonin?

[Enthusiast]

56. You are as wrong as can be.

And you are taking a position that one would take if they were the beneficiary of election malfeasance. Of course Republicans want us to go along and just forget it. Look at the irreparable damage that the Bush Administration did to the country as a result of this coup. Not only that, but if this is ignored the filthy Republicans will pull the same 'dirty tricks' again. It appears this is what the GOP is all about - smokescreens, dirty tricks, misinformation, election fraud and worse.

[Uncle Joe]

62. The present is the past and so is the future.

What did we get back as compared to what we lost?

Without knowing that, we can't know where we need to go.

2000 wasn't just a coup against Al Gore, the Democratic Party, the American People or even justice it was a coup against a direction or perceived progressive agenda, and that needs to be fought for.

[rhett o rick]

87. We got it back? We who? Not we the people, jack. We got nothin.

Havent you been paying attention? BP owns us. We got nothin back, jack.

[donheld]

103. You really think we're just suppose to "move on" from stolen elections?

Not if I can help it.

[Hubert Flottz]

157. Somebody who was stoned on the Kool-Aid got stoned...

RIP........NOT!

It's hard to move on from the quagmire the neocons left behind.

Move Out...smartly, dummy.

[JHB]

67. I've heard Republican conservatives grousing about the 1960 election...

...for as long as I've been alive. Despite the fact that they don't seem to have any evidence beyond invoking the reputation of Mayor Daley, and despite the fact that Kennedy would still have won even if Illinois had gone for Nixon.

They may have used it for their 2-Minute Hates, but they also used it to pretend they were victims of injustice and as an emblem to rally around.

Not to mention more recent history, namely the attempts to paint both Clinton's and Obama's elections as "not legitimate". (Clinton because of his '92 win with less than half the popular vote, thanks to Perot's campaign, and Obama the whole "birther" and "Acorn voter fraud" nonsense.)

So when the closest presidential election in US history is decided by a few hundred votes amid clear instances of vote suppression and vote-count tampering, by the Supreme Court making an unprecedented intervention in the electoral process, I don't feel any pressing need to "get over it".

[Dawson Leery]

70. I agree.

[Raster]

27. We should learn from the past. Bush* and Cheney* should be tried for war crimes.

As should EVERYONE from their illegal administration that lied us into two wars of vanity and greed. Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. There were NO weapons of mass destruction. It was all lies based on lies. And we should "...learn to let things go..."? I think not.

[Enthusiast]

58. But W Bush got to be

a 'War President' like his daddy promised.

[Raster]

28. We should learn from the past. Bush* and Cheney* should be tried for war crimes.

As should EVERYONE from their illegal administration that lied us into two wars of vanity and greed. Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. There were NO weapons of mass destruction. It was all lies based on lies. And we should "...learn to let things go..."? I think not.

[eridani]

133. In that case, let's just eliminate our entire legal system, which has no purpose other than to dwell

--on the past. We need to move on from rape, arson and murder, because trying and sentencing people for those things never undoes the crimes.

[Name removed]

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[Richard Steele]

9. M'kay.

nm

[Name removed]

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[conscious evolution]

20. Our goverment of We the People

has been overthrown in a coup and you want people to forget about it? To move on?

I don't think so.

Welcome to my buddy list.

[H2O Man]

34. Why ask that?

[Enthusiast]

54. It is essential that

this malfeasance is exposed for all to see.

[JackRiddler]

57. Indeed, why do people care about banking reform? 2008 is ancient history...

And we should all shut up about the Gulf six minutes after the leak is plugged. They'll do a cleanup, or whatever, but what happened, happened.

I think it's asking too much that Americans know anything about history, or last week, because it's just too burdensome and keeping track of it never changed anything.

Please bring your thinking to a logical conclusion, and forget that this website exists. Do us all a favor.

[TheKentuckian]

59. No, the far greater crime was committed against the American people

Gore was running to SERVE not to win a fucking prize. The issue is certainly not dead because nothing at all was corrected, no one paid for their crimes, and the lies go on relating to the matter. It's not in the past at all, the event has direct effects on the present day and since nothing was done it can happen again.

ZOMBIE!!!! It never died. What a myopic and stupid sentiment. WHAT HAS BEEN DONE ABOUT IT??????

This is about our people, our Constitution, and DEMOCRACY!!! Dumbest statement ever! What the fuck do you think we have a justice system for? Do you say why do we go on with murder and rape cases because "it's over, it happened, and nothing anybody says or does it going to change what happened. 'Let the dead past bury the past', eh? It's been ten years"?

[Name removed]

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[rhett o rick]

86. Wow you are sooo wrong. The hell wit Gore. The people of the US have a right to be bitter

Bush totally destroyed our country. We need to keep the light on this horrible treasonable act but the SCOTUS. Those responsible need to be prosecuted. I am disappointed that you would suggest that we let it go. Fuck that shit. Our democracy was abused to the max. jack.

[Sparkly]

88. And nothing the Cabal DID during their 8-year reign matters either, eh?

It's all part of the same thing.

The disasters we're seeing right now, and the ones we saw between 2001 and 2008, are ALL the result of THAT first BushCo so-called election.

It was no accident. It had deep roots and they're still around -- only now they're in the "reap the benefits" phase again, after leaving others to clean up their mess (and be blamed for it).

Read up-- the SAME damn interests (organizations, companies, and even many of the very same individuals) who were out to get Clinton from the start got BushCo into office, kept him in office, got every greedy thing they wanted, and now resurface every now and then to protect themselves and their profits.

And you can bet your ass Al Gore is "bitter" -- but there's nothing to gain in wearing it in public.

The whole country should be "BITTER" after what that election cost us.

[Sebastian Doyle]

91. "Why dig this zombie up?"

Oh, the irony. :rofl:

[bobbolink]

93. Yeah, let all of those unsolved murders go, too.

:crazy:

[alittlelark]

101. uh, yeah .................

:eyes:

[Rex]

138. Oh so many people would LOVE to believe America has 'moved on'

from 2000, but the nightmare never ended and still goes on today. The tragedy? The hapless idiots that think nothing bad happen in 2000 or 2004. Ignore crime at such high levels at your own peril.

[barbtries]

145. because it is still important.

is it in the history books? are children learning this in school? it's history, and it matters.

[droidamus2]

149. I think the saying goes

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. This is and should be brought up to make sure that this kind of electoral theft never happens again in this country. I don't know about you but I think a lot of the 'just get over it' people are people that had no problem with the outcome and if necessary would steal more elections in the future if they thought they could get away with it. Shine a light on the crimes and never let that light go out until we are guaranteed our right to open, above board elections where ever vote counts and is counted.

[fasttense]

154. Or as our current truly elected President likes to say:

We can't look back we have to look forward.

It's all bunk.

We have to revisit the past as often as it takes in order to understand why it happened and what you would do when/if it happens again. Not planning on a 2nd such disaster would leave you wide open for it. Not looking at it keeps us all blind and ignorant.

And.... If you look back often enough, eventually the majority of people will see the injustice of it and may try to correct it.

[dotymed]

158. Shortsighted, to say the least.

We are not discussing just that election. We are discussing the ramifications that it had on America, and eventually the world. "Cold case" crimes from 50 years ago are prosecuted when the evidence is discovered. A "case" that involves the stealing of a nation is not a "zombie." More Kool-aid? Sadly, that theft, IMO, is ongoing. At the very least, we must have a Federal (universal) system, that allows election transparency. Just like all other "civilized" nations. The greatest military power in the world, must catch up to the civilized world in all aspects. Instead, we are dragging those nations down to our level, so their populations can be serfs also. Why do you think that after nearly a century of universal healthcare and real human rights, those countries programs are now becoming insolvent, universally? More interference from our corporate owned government and their bankster overlords, all losses reimbursed by us serfs. All the while, wealth distribution is becoming more concentrated. Again, we are the people we have been waiting for.

[spanone]

161. i will never move on. people die daily because of this decision. you can bury your past, not me.

[burnsei sensei]

170. It's vital history,

and a potent weapon against the ambition of neoconservatives.
It shows their true colors in all their ugliness; a black eye from history never heals.

[ixion]

6. Yes, it was.

Without question, considering that the candidate who won the popular vote was not the candidate who took office, and that this transpired due to the inappropriate and unprecedented involvement of compliant SCOTUS.

And despite the changey-feely thing, the group that seized power then retains that power today.

[rurallib]

32. Not only popular vote, but rightly electoral vote also

add in Florida which Gore won.

[dotymed]

164. I remember

watching the election returns on tee vee. The bush family was out eating (knowing the "outcome"), when Florida was called for Gore, they went home immediately. bush said there was a "mistake", brother jeb had "promised" him Florida. Minutes later, Fla. was changed to bush. It was obvious at that moment, that our votes didn't count. Poppa had many years of vote rigging as head of the CIA, he had already promised his POS son the country. It was a part of the entrenched plan. Money and gangsters came through again. They sent "Brooks Brothers" crowds to Fl. to enforce their theft and mob anyone that stood in their way. Of course, their SCOTUS appointees fixed it for them. Now, we can see the worldwide theft of the civil rights of the other "civilized" nations. They do not want Americans to demand those basic rights that those citizens have enjoyed for so long. That would mean a more proportional wealth distribution...never...

[Enthusiast]

60. And it is pretty obvious.

"And despite the changey-feely thing, the group that seized power then retains that power today."

[Richard Steele]

10. Yes, that's exactly what it was. nm

[MrScorpio]

14. By the Neo-cons... Abso-fucking-lutely

Bush was simply their errand boy.

[harun]

36. But if Gore won, we had neo-con Lieberman in there anyway. So I think

the neo-con's would win either way.

[Echo In Light]

52. Think of US politics as one of those scripted, pre-determined "pro" wrestling tv shows

Nothing in politics happens by accident

[Enthusiast]

61. Yeah.

The PTB would have remained the PTB as they do today.

[Soylent Brice]

69. LIEberman = neocon sleeper cell.

goes to show you how well the deck gets stacked...

[madokie]

18. I've been saying this since day one here

it was a coup no doubt about it and it continues today inspite of our best efforts to stop it by electing a good man as our President. He is only one person amongst many.

[lonestarnot]

96. Without a damn doubt!

[ladjf]

19. Definitely! nt

[deutsey]

21. Smells like Coup Spirit

http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg66317.html

Something I wrote back in April 2001 in which I compare events in Florida with CIA-orchestrated coups in Chile and Guatemala.

Excerpt:

Where does mere coincidence end and meaningful patterns begin? Even if
the events in Florida listed here (along with the more detailed reports
being filed by investigative journalists) are removed from the context of
covert actions, it is easy to conclude that something profoundly
disturbing happened in the previous election.

Reviewing the increasing amount of evidence demonstrating just how dirty
the 2000 election was, however, is it so unreasonable to think that those
interests whose hands remain sullied from Florida would have sunk one
notch lower into the murky depths of covert operations? What are the
limits when the objective is to grab power at any cost?

And what will those who seized that power do next time in order to hold on
to it?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

22. Yes it was absolutely. And 2004 - Ohio

I always like how the Supreme Court practically renounced their own decision and said it couldn't be precedent.

SNL got it right when they had Al Gore summarize what his Presidency would have been like. I doubt there would have been a 9/11 since the Clinton Gore Administration was much more on top of Al Qaida. At the very least they wouldn't have declared a fake war on Iraq for oil interests.

John Kerry should have stuck around to answer what went on in Ohio.

Interesting to think that if Kerry won, he would probably be in his second term. John Edwards would probably still be Vice President with no current scandal and winning big the hearts of Americans as he stands by his ill wife since he probably would have never had the opportunity to meet his nemesis.

Maybe we would have taken on real health reform, maybe a lot of things.

[Raster]

23. Well-planned and positioned coup d'etat. President-elect Gore, though the rightful legal and lawful

winner would NEVER have been allowed to be inaugurated and assume his rightful position. Never. Selection 2000 was a high-level coup d'etat beyond a shadow of a doubt. And 2004 was much of the same.

[flyarm]

24. and millions of Primary votes stolen in 2008 was as well! eom

[Dr.Phool]

25. Yep.

"My brother told me I'd win Florida".

[yellerpup]

26. It would have been shenanigans if Gore had won in the Florida recount.

It became a coup when the Supreme Court delivered the country to GWB.

[patrice]

29. It was a coup and so was 2004 and we should never "move on".

[lunatica]

31. When the Supreme Court Five were already in place

I'd say it was a coup. Especially when their judicial rendition was that a continued count would hurt George W. Bush.

Yeah. A coup it was but at the time we could have reversed it. After that Bush hit the ground running and proceeded to destroy the Social programs. He confounded it perfectly when he went on his wars. He knew that it doesn't matter that you go to war for lies. He counted on it becoming a quagmire, which it has. It's not possible to extricate yourself from the quagmire. It will haunt you if nothing else. Vietnam has left a wound that won't heal. Memorial Day is overflowing with the dead from that war.

[Solly Mack]

33. You mean Selection 2000?

[mikita]

35. in a word, yes. n/t

[indepat]

37. A coup d'etat by any other name is still a coup d'etat

:D

[Raster]

39. Yes, and war criminals by any other name are still Bush*, Cheney*, Rumsfeld and Rice.

[RedCloud]

40. Not just Florida but over 2,000,000 votes nationwide were suppressed or scrubbed.

It was the only way the drunk could get in the White house.

[flyarm]

43. and in 2008 2 million primary votes were stolen in Fla and Michigans as well! eom

[tom_paine]

41. Unquestionably a bloodless coup, but ABSOLUTELY a coup d'etat

I'd say it was the beginning of the end of American Democracy and as a true republic, but I don;t think it was the beginning, more like the early middle stages.

We're much further along now in the Neocon New Totalitarianism American Project.

[Enthusiast]

63. No question about it.

"We're much further along now in the Neocon New Totalitarianism American Project."

[sinkingfeeling]

42. Without question.

[DefenseLawyer]

44. I'm convinced there was cheating in 2004

I'm not as sure about 2000. They clearly had a plan in place to take advantage of the scenario that played out. Bush v. Gore was the most poorly reasoned, least scholarly decision in the history of the Supreme Court, not necessarily in terms of impact (Dred Scott still wins) but in terms of being contemptuous of the law. Definitely a low point in the history of our country. If you want to call it a coup, I wouldn't take issue with that.

[dotymed]

165. The recent decision

by the SCOTUS to allow unlimited electoral "contributions" was the icing on the cake for an obviously Fascist government.

[truebrit71]

168. ..by Corporations no less...that decision was the final nail in the coffin...

..of the great democratic experiment known as "The United States of America"..

It will now be run by, for and of, the corporations..

"We, the people" get to suck it..

[yellowcanine]

47. I remember one moment when Katherine Harris announced that the counted vote total was exactly the

same as it had been the night before. That seemed really suspicious to me. This was during the first "recount" when the Bush lead was disappearing rapidly. I have always suspected that Gore actually surpassed Bush during the vote total that night and this is the reason that Katherine Harris did not release the updated vote totals that morning. The whole dynamic of subsequent events would have changed if the announced totals would have had Gore leading. I think that by withholding the vote totals Harris gave her minions the time they needed to steal some votes from Gore.

And then of course there is the very curious assertion by Rove election night that the projected win of Gore in Florida could not be correct - how could he possibly be so sure at that point? He certainly did not know about the butterfly ballot situation in Palm Beach at that point - or did he? I have always felt that the butterfly ballot fiasco was planned - it was not an accident. Gore easily lost more than enough votes right there to cost him Florida and the election.

[ensho]

48. yes

nt

[Romulox]

49. Yes, but as hard as it is to hear, Gore would've been a disaster in his own way...

The only reason Obama is getting the sort of push-back he is right now (little as it may be) is because of the horror of 8 years of W. Al Gore and Joe Lieberman, untempered by this comparison, would've had free hand to move the Democrat Party farther to the Right than even Clinton had dared. Lieberman is an avowed theocrat and militarist, and Al Gore is a "free trader" and hypocrite of Edwardian proportions. Neither seem to have learned a thing from the last 8 years, either. :shrug:

[Uncle Joe]

73. Al Gore would have been a far more progressive President and the nation

would have moved to the left from Clinton, not the other way around.

The corporate media knew it and that's why they waged a near eight year witch hunt against Clinton, an almost two year war of libel and slander against Gore prior to the selection of 2000 while giving Bush a free pass.

Al Gore exposed Perot on national television while breaking his free trade monopoly. NAFTA would have been vastly improved under a Gore Administration.

Al Gore was the preeminent political champion of the American People's voice of democracy via the Internet and of saving humanity from destruction via global warming climate change.

This is why the corporate media trashed Gore, both issues an empowered American People exercising their First Amendment Rights and the threat of weaning our society away from fossil fuels threatened either the corporate media or their commercial buying clients.

[Romulox]

78. "Al Gore exposed Perot"? Are you serious? Michigan has experienced PRECISELY the sound Mr. Perot

mentioned.

Al Gore was wrong about NAFTA. Al Gore is STILL wrong about NAFTA. All he's got on Clinton is his environmental scold schtick. Which falls flat the second you see a picture of his estate. :shrug:

[Uncle Joe]

79. Yes Perot thought "free trade" was good enough for him self, he had his own private NAFTA and

Al Gore exposed it on Larry King during their debate, the only sucking sound Perot was concerned about was how much money he would lose from the elimination of his own private free trade exclusionary zone.

Michigan was losing it's jobs long before NAFTA, Japan was taking them away and if Al Gore had been President environmental and labor protections would have been increased with Mexico.

Gore's estate has the second highest energy efficiency rating you can get, when the Gores bought it, this 100 year old home was an energy hog, so they took a strong negative and turned it neutral at worst and positive at best.

They also live a carbon neutral lifestyle, paying excess for their utilities just to fund green projects offsetting their usage of energy.

[Romulox]

176. The part about Al Gore being rich and therefore being ALLOWED to pollute is all that need be said.

If Al Gore believes conservation is crucial for the survival of our planet, maybe he should try it rather than buying environmental dispensations (inconvenient truth! :hi: )?

And your insensitivity (not to say ignorance) about Michigan's economic situation says all that need be said about your insight into Al Gore's neo-liberal economic policies. I guess Al Gore's present political irrelevance and the fact that his ambitions will never be fulfilled is some small consolation, though exceeding small in the wake of the neo-liberal economics Mr. Gore is famous for flogging.

[Uncle Joe]

178. It has nothing to do with your income level or social class and everything to do with your

carbon footprint, Al Gore's carbon footprint is neutral at worst while his leadership contributions have been great.

You might be confused about religion and science but the former is based on faith and the latter on reason.

Insensitive? I merely stated one major dynamic re: Detroit's plight prior to NAFTA, and it also had to do with a million decisions made by those in power to maintain an outdated status quo instead of adapting to an evolving world.

All sorts of irreversible dynamics were coming in to play during the 70s, 80s and early 90s the oil shock, the rebuilding of the developed world after it had been bombed to the Stone Age ending an era when the U.S. had virtually all the world's industrial might, the growing environmental movement, the aging of the baby boomers, and Detroit's own automotive management decisions.

The world was and is changing and there is no going back short of another World War leaving the U.S. relatively unscathed.

NAFTA was an attempt to broaden the North American market by helping to bring Mexico up as a means to compete with an ascending and uniting European Union along with China's rise to power.

If Gore had been in power after 2000 adjustments re: environmental and labor issues would have been addressed, Bush didn't give a rat's ass.

[Romulox]

179. Of course it does; Al Gore PAYS for the "right" to pollute. He hasn't given up his private jet rides

or SUVs.







"Do as I say, not as I do! (you're not rich enough!)"

[Uncle Joe]

180. Gore flies commercial, owns no private jet and he never told you or anyone else

they couldn't live well, so that's a lie.

As I mentioned before that home is nearly 100 years old and was an existing energy hog before the Gores bought and renovated it.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/gorehome.asp

[Echo In Light]

50. Against The People, yes, but NOT against the Dem party, who was/is involved & in-the-know

Silence = Consent

[JackRiddler]

55. According to its "About Us" statement, DU is based on the premise that it was.

[TheKentuckian]

64. As you can see above, I agree it was a coup but a pretty strong case could be made

that the country was already long stolen, if it was ever in "our" hands in the first place.

[Fly by night]

65. 2000, 2004 and races below President in 2008. Unverifiable DREs are the power base for Republicans.

Here in Tennessee, we worked hard over four years to get DREs banned and replaced by paper ballots read by optical scan machines and then randomly audited through hand-counts. However, our state's Rethugs fought hard to keep the bill from being implemented in 2008. Then, when to everyone's surprise, Rethugs took control of our legislature in 2008 for the first time since Reconstruction (!?!), they promptly announced that they would rescind our Voter Confidence Act, which they promptly did. Now we can find no serious candidates for Governor or for Congress among Democrats because everyone knows the fix is in and will remain in until we do away with DREs.

It is a very sad (and scary) time for democracy here in Tennessee and in too many other states. Our only salvation will be the Rethugs' temptation to run the most far-reich candidates they can find for these offices, which (so far) they are succumbing to. If we can defeat their hand-picked candidates in the Rethug primary in favor of traditionally moderate Rethugs, we may be able to regain our democracy sometime in the future.

But I am not counting on it.

[dotymed]

172. I am moving "back home" to Tn.

I was so disgusted and afraid when I saw the complete lack of medical coverage for most people. I saw people being turned away from the hospital and Dr.'s because they did not have insurance and cash "up-front." I guess they want the sick to die off. My brother has heart failure, a torn rotator cuff (for four years now) and is unable to lift his arm at 53 y.o. He has abscessed teeth (molars) and he cuts grass (now) for a "living." He goes to the county free clinic and is able (finally) to get his heart meds free. I saw a nephew,(30 y.o.), who was tricked into quitting his job of 12 years because he is sick and passed out at work (fell on machinery with his head), now the Dr. demands $900 up front to run tests to diagnose him. He paid his Cobra Ins. weeks ago, but it hasn't "kicked in yet." He too, now mows lawns. I am so afraid to move home because of my health, but I financially have to be with my family.
Universal health care is a right that could be paid for by a real (just like we used to have) progressive income tax on the wealthy earners. So many American civilians are suffering and dying so the wealthy can stay that way.
I was near Ft. Campbell, Ky. and I saw the terribly mangled kids returning home. I learned that they were being discharged (unable to ever lead a "normal" life) with no disability (SS). Seeing what America has come to, hurts me beyond description.
Our government has been seized by the elite (few in number), and it is getting worse. If we don't unite and demand real change, it will be too late.

[iamthebandfanman]

66. Corporate america finally got the man they wanted in 2000.

so yes.

[Echo In Light]

68. Which explains the iron-clad media/punditry 'profe$$ional' blackout re PNAC/election theft

[Romulox]

72. They had ZERO problem with the "inside man" they had from '92 on... nt

[Swamp Rat]

75. Of course, and it will be codified for all time in history books throughout the world.

[dkofos]

77. That's what I called it back in 2000.

And nothing I've seen or read since has changed my mind.

[tbyg52]

81. Ditto. nt

[Greybnk48]

82. A coup d'etat by Cheney and his corporate friends and minions.

* was just for show, similar to Reagan.

[political_Dem]

84. Yes. Definitely. What the Bush Crime Family Wants, They Get.

However, their need for power got blowback because W was the wrong son in office. W is a mental lightweight and a dry drunk. Even the people who manipulated him had problems because he couldn't even follow simple orders. Heck. He couldn't he deliver a speech correctly. Instead of this ship sailing smoothly, the Bushes' "reign" in office turned into a maritime disaster of largesse.

The only thing that was good about what happened is that W's buffoonery woke this country up enough to seek someone more qualified for the POTUS. I think people knew at the end of the Bush Presidency that as a country the citizens did not want to go down this path again.

Mr. Obama is infinitely smarter and more adept when trying to tackle the weight of the problems facing us. Sadly, he might be crushed by the overwhelming list of disasters made by the boy President and his handlers.

(And what is sickening is that W., his family, friends and handlers don't seem to care about the mess they made. After all, they took the money from their oil and defense projects and ran all the way to the bank.)

Now it is a struggle between the enlightened and the those influenced by the forked tongues of RW radio. Who wins determines the soul of the this country.

[Synicus Maximus]

89. No

[RobertPlant]

92. 2000 was not a coup d'etat

a coup d'etat involves an assassination, which the 2000 election did not involve.

[grantcart]

94. having lived through many coup d'etat's I can tell you very few involve assassination.

[Raster]

97. The most successful coups DON'T involve assasination.

The goal is to take over as cleanly and orderly as possible.

[blm]

104. who told you that, Mr....................

Plant

[Capitalocracy]

122. where did you get that idea?

:wtf:

[grantcart]

98. The answer is Yes. Now for some technical points.

Most people see this as hyperbole or histrionics.

Having lived through half a dozen coups I would make the argument that it fits a classical definition of a coup.

Point One: Gore won the election.

Clearly Bush did not win the election. This again is an uncontroversial fact. The election constitutes the popular vote and that was clearly won by Gore.


Point Two: Winning the election does not, in the American system, equal winning the Presidency which can only be won by the electoral college.

Now simply because you win the election and do not win the electoral college does not automatically mean that it is a coup. It also does not necessarily mean that it would be unpopular. For example let's say that candidate A won the election but before the electoral college met something horrific was discovered that would compromise his/her ability to hold the office.


Point Three: A coup is not necessarily 'illegal'. Most coups are shrouded in some 'legal' mechanism that connotate a legal reason for holding the office.


Point Four: While in most cases it is the military that takes power sometimes it is a court.



Having lived through half a dozen coups I can say that the main difference between this coup and the others is that radio and television transmission continued uninterupted. Usually during a coup most of the stations have their transmission interupted and the others play martial music waiting for the official announcment.

All that was missing was a daylong playing of John Phillip Souza music.

[Warren Stupidity]

99. Is the Bear pope-ish?

[madinmaryland]

100. Here is your answer Stinky...

Just saying.

[donheld]

102. Yes indeed

[Patchuli]

105. coup d'etat

and hard to believe dumbasses like the GOP could have pulled it off. Of course, putting Scalia on the bench helped a bunch.

I saw the sad news today that Al and Tipper were splitting. I still think she was/should have been/would have been a fine First Lady.

[lovuian]

106. Oh yes it was a CABAL

by a secret society

[Lilith Velkor]

107. Over 100 posts in this thread

No subject lines have the N word in them. :wow:

(Don't ask. I won't tell.) :hide:

[pundaint]

108. No it was election fraud, an over-reaching Supreme Court, a wimpy Democratic Party, but the person

in power was leaving on the 20th anyway, and the candidate the people elected had not yet been sworn in. And why hasn't Congress taken the ability to decide elections away from the supreme court with a constitutional amendment.

[spanone]

109. was george bu$h* president for 8 years?

[mahina]

110. Absolutely.

My aunt voted in Florida for every election for the past 20+ years at the same precinct location without incident. In 08, the first time she ever registered as a Democrat, they turned her away and would not let her vote, even on a provisional ballot.

She was a well off white lady.

There were ballot boxes in ditches all over the state. It was a corruption of our electoral process and a theft of unimaginable proportions. Those who say 'get over it' below would be advised to consider it's not a sport, this is our democracy that our fathers died for. It's not a 'side' issue, and unless you'd feel fine if it happened again, we should all be writing letters to the White House and to our elected officials urging a thorough investigation and prosecution if deemed appropriate.

Thousands of American lives and hundreds of thousands of lives from other countries have been lost. Lost opportunity for change in time, wars waged that would not have been, debt incurred that would not have been, economic disruption that would not have occurred, jobs lost on an epidemic scale that would not have been; there are just countless mortal wounds from this coup.

It was just exactly that, and I am so sorry to see no one in jail for it. That is a collossal mistake.

[proteus_lives]

111. It was Ocean's 9 with uglier actors.

[onenote]

112. not as the term is usually understood

[DemoTex]

113. Cartoonist Ben Sargent of the Austin-American Statesman thought so ..

Sargent drew a great cartoon depicting the coup d'etat. I had it in my pic file for years. Alas, the link has died.

[SILVER__FOX52]

114. Shenanigans are....

when dead people vote. A coup is when you close voting centers early, fraudulently remove eligible voters from registration rolls and do not allow for a recount because five assholes said no. History will show that the 2000 election was stolen. Look at the results.....very sad.

[deutsey]

152. Exactly. The interests that pulled this coup off were not about to, as Kissinger said about Chile,

watch America go Democratic "because of the irresponsibility of its own people."

[byronius]

115. Still. Angry.

[diane in sf]

116. yes, quite obviously it was a coup, Bush didn't win either election, 2000 was stolen by

a partisan supreme court, 2004 Ohio and elsewhere by hijacking the voting tabulation.

[crim son]

117. Quite possibly

and I find it interesting that Obama was allowed to win in 2008. Not inexplicable, but interesting.

[harmonicon]

121. Yes, it certainly was.

What would "simply electoral shenanigans" be anyway? Is there really a division here?

[earcandle]

123. Crashing into the future works here!

Crashing Into the Future

says it in a song... sometimes its easier to see our automatic imprinted behaviors when they stand out in song.

[Gore1FL]

124. I think my handle speaks for itself n/t

[earth mom]

125. Yes it was and anyone who can't see that both 2000 & 2004 were stolen isn't paying attention.

In '08 TPTB CHOSE Obama and put on a helluva advertising campaign so they didn't have to steal it again.

[totodeinhere]

126. Not only was it a stolen election, they will try to do it again. n/t

[autorank]

128. Premeditated Coup d'etat k*r

Bibliography: Election 2000 AND

Published on Wednesday, February 28, 2001 by Media Channel.org
Silence Of The Lambs:
The Election Story Never Told
by Greg Palast
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0228-09.htm

Here's how the president of the United States was elected: In the months leading up to the November balloting, Florida Governor Jeb Bush and his Secretary of State, Katherine Harris, ordered local elections supervisors to purge 64,000 voters from voter lists on the grounds that they were felons who were not entitled to vote in Florida. As it turns out, these voters weren't felons, or at least, only a very few were. However, the voters on this "scrub list" were, notably, African-American (about 54 percent), while most of the others wrongly barred from voting were white and Hispanic Democrats.

Beginning in November, this extraordinary news ran, as it should, on Page 1 of the country's leading paper. Unfortunately, it was in the wrong country: Britain. In the United States, it ran on page zero — that is, the story was not covered on the news pages. The theft of the presidential race in Florida also was given big television network coverage. But again, it was on the wrong continent: on BBC television, London.

Was this some off-the-wall story that the Brits misreported? A lawyer for the U.S. Civil Rights Commission called it the first hard evidence of a systematic attempt to disenfranchise black voters; the commission held dramatic hearings on the evidence. While the story was absent from America's news pages (except, I grant, a story in the Orlando Sentinel and another on C-Span), columnists for The New York Times, Boston Globe and Washington Post cited the story after seeing a U.S. version on the Internet magazine Salon.com. As the reporter on the story for Britain's Guardian newspaper (and its Sunday edition, The Observer) and for BBC television, I was interviewed on several American radio programs, generally "alternative" stations on the left side of the dial.

[Diane R]

131. It was a coup, years in the planning.

[Etranger]

132. Some would say the coup d'etat happened in...

Some would say the coup d'etat happened in 1963 others in 1913, there was always powerful people behind the scenes pulling the strings, the republicans could not have stolen 2000 election by themselves.

[Golden Raisin]

134. A true low point and horrendous

demarcation point in American History. When the Supreme Court openly selected the President I knew we were in ugly new territory and royally screwed.

[The Wizard]

136. Somewhere out there

scaffolds and ropes or blindfolds and cigarettes await the arch criminals who destroyed democracy. The entire Bush cartel along with the compliant majority on the Supreme Court come to mind. Their media handmaidens that refuse(ed) to report the truth and chose to act as propaganda tools belong in prison.

[secondwind]

139. I can still visualize the Bushes, all sitting around the hotel room, and the Idiot

smiling broadly, saying he "wasn't worried"......his parents also. They KNEW. I told my husband, THEY KNOW SOMETHING.

[Turbineguy]

140. The main problem is that they had

an idiot for front man.

[spicegal]

141. Good question, although a little late. Paranoid though it may sound,

I've come to believe there are very powerful people in the world who operate behind the scenes, in the shadows, whatever. These people pull a lot of strings and make a lot of things happen, things which certainly don't benefit the "little guy". The 2000 election being one of those things. To "he" who has the money goes the spoils, and that's pretty much wasn't happened to our country. That's why I worry about Obama. I'm not sure he, or any man, has the where with all to overcome these forces. Too many people in this country are blind and ignorant as to what's been happening.

[mfcorey1]

142. Yes it was due to Jeb bush and Katherine Harris. Now that they no longer need her...

after they gave her political office, they threw her under the bus, bridge, expressway and other unstable infrastructures in the State of Florida.

[Syntheto]

143. Geez, Louise...

Wasn't that like, uh, Ten Freaking Years ago? Was the fix in for Kennedy thanks to the Daly machine in Chicago in 1960? I mean, who cares?

[JHB]

147. We care because nothing of substance has changed...

The 1960 thing was always sour grapes. Kennedy won the electoral vote 303-219. Even if Illinois had gone for Nixon (27 votes) Kennedy still would have won. Since then conservatives have used it to feed their "persecuted martyr" complex, but there's no there there.

Even if you equate the vote tampering that happened in 2000 with what was alleged in 1960, The election was much closer, it all rode on the outcome in one state, and the (conservative-dominated) Supreme Court engaged in the most blatant case of "judicial activism" in this nation's history.

It was wrong ten years ago, and most of the things that made it wrong have not been corrected. Some have been made worse.

That's why we care.

[deutsey]

153. Thank you.

:thumbsup:

[burnsei sensei]

171. +1

nt

[racaulk]

177. Great post!

:thumbsup:

[spanone]

162. you should care.

[barbtries]

144. considering how busy the repubs were

following their theft of the presidency, considering the wars and the march of capitalism, considering the wide spread infection of bushies into all aspects of government and even life in this country, i'd have to say it could be considered a coup.

[BrklynLiberal]

146. It sure as hell was......all set up very nicely by Raygun and Poppa Bush's court appointees.

Aided and abetted by Sandra Day O'Connor - even tho she was also appted by Raygun..I did not include her in the inner circle of evil, as I should have.

[Helga Scow Stern]

148. Coup 2000 and 2004. n/t

[Clintonista2]

150. Yes, it was. And 10 years later, I'm still bitter

[tavalon]

156. It was a coup

We're all here on this website because of the bloodless coup by the Supreme Court. Of course, there were shenanigans that helped but in the end, it was a bloodless coup. I thought we took our country back in 2008. I find that, for a woman approaching 50 years of age, I can be so naive.

[spanone]

160. yes.

[CBGLuthier]

163. For almost 8 years I lived on DU under the name notmypresident

And would merely point out my name when these questions arose. Coup. Plain and simple and I would not call it bloodless.

The family Bush is a pestilence upon this land. The father was probably involved in the Reagan assassination and the grandfather for a fact aided in funding the fucking nazis. The real nazis. Not these wannabe nazis we have today.

[L. Coyote]

166. JUNTA DAY = 2000.12.12

D'oh!

[OnyxCollie]

173. Absolutely.

The five activist justices on the Court legislated from the bench against states' rights and installed Chimpy.

Cheney v U.S. District Court was decided after Darth picked up Fat Nino and his son on Airforce 2 for some "duck hunting." That decision allowed for the National Energy Policy Development Group to slip past congressional scrutiny. Not that it would have changed things, anyway.

Citizen's United and the RNC's push to get the Court to look at soft money in elections will be the final nail in the coffin. With the aid of ES&S counting 80% of the votes, of course. (They aren't going to break up, per the DOJ's order, by November. No way.)

[Wizard777]

174. Who knew the Y2K bugs name was George?

:shrug:

[Hempathy]

175. of course it was a coup.