These three paragraphs stood out to me. (gas prices)

[lildreamer316]

"The recent increases are due mostly to refinery problems, Lundberg said, noting there have been at least a dozen additional partial shutdowns in the U.S. and internationally that cut refining capacity.

One of the nation’s largest refineries, a BP PLC plant in Indiana that processes more than 400,000 barrels of oil per day, will not be operating at full capacity for several months due to unexpected repairs.

Other examples include a 170,000-barrel-per-day plant in McKee, Texas, that was shut down for a month, and a 470,000 barrels-per-day plant in Texas City operating at less than half capacity."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18522401/

"unexpected repairs"=BULLSHIT.

I wonder if we will ever be able to talk to ppl in those refineries who will probably say that NOTHING is wrong with them?
Probably not...but I wonder.

[politicat]

1. McKee had a fire

That much I do know.

But... you know, machinery breaks down. If you've ever been stuck in the middle of rush hour traffic, in the left-hand turn lane, and no cell signal, you know that.

[bigtree]

2. It's not like they haven't made the adjustments to keep up with demand before

there's definite, obvious foot-dragging, and the record profits tell us why

[Rosemary2205]

5. Good luck getting more refining capacity.

Environmental groups go all noodles any time any refinery starts talking about expanding capacity or any time someone starts talking about building another refinery anywhere.

[bigtree]

7. It looks like many of the problems involve repairing existing facilities in these cases

but, your point is well-taken. Still, you have to wonder why that environmental voice would supposedly be more influential than it is now.

What most want is some reigning in of industry standards like emissions limits and a host of new regulations which the industry is resisting. Also, the Bush administration wants to take (has taken) advantge of the 'crisis' to lower those standards.

[ThomCat]

The problem isn't that we need more refineries.

It's that refineries have been shut down, and many run at less than full capacity. It's a deliberate shortage of refining capacity because that shortage allows them to justify outrageous prices and profit margins.
x(

[lildreamer316]

10. Exactly.

This is what I mean.
Unfortunately, even if the environmental lobby could get some kind of restrictions into Congress; it would probably take forever to get it passed for myriad reasons; first of which is that Congress has so much on it's plate, and it would invite a veto anyway.

[Rosemary2205]

13. That's possible but it has yet to be proven.

Since our refineries tend to run at full capacity all the time then any repair requires cutting back on capacity. Something like a major fire or a hurrican can shut down the entire refinery. With little to no excess capacity in the system it cannot be made up elsewhere when there are repair issues.

I won't rule out deliberate manipulation of supply by lying about the need for refinery repairs, but I've yet to see proof of that.

[ThomCat]

14. "Memos show oil companies closed refineries to hike profits"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jamie-court/memos-show-oil-companies-_b_6980.html

Or, how about a senate report that concludes that refining capacity was deliberately limited.
http://wyden.senate.gov/leg_issues/reports/wyden_oil_report.pdf

And, how is it that so many refineries are only recently, suddenly, having so many unexplained outages? You would think the industry doesn't have a clue how to manage their preventive maintenance schedules.

Where the possible explanations are incompetence or profit motive, profit motive is usally the right answer. There is too much money at stake for any industry to keep incompetent people.

[Rosemary2205]

15. Thanks for the informative links

however, increasing refining capacity will take away their ability to do this I would think.

[bigtree]

20. that's not much different from what I said

the rub to increasing production is in the refineries

[BeFree]

16. Blaming environmentalists?

Gimme a break....

If there were real shortages, meaning that you went to the gas station and couldn't get gas, then the idea that there are shortages would make sense.

Being as that there is gas there are no shortages caused by environmentalists.

[bananas]

8. "These aren't "profit reports," they are confessions."

http://ucan.org/gasoline_autos/gas_prices/gas_prices_reflect_refinery_gouging

Gas prices reflect refinery gouging

By: CHARLES LANGLEY - for the North County Times

Big Oil's earnings statements read more like a confession than a profit report.

<snip>

What has happened is that the oil companies have shifted their profits centers from the "upstream" sector (oil and drilling) to the "downstream," which is refining. In the meantime, retailers are limited to an average profit of about a nickel a gallon.

<snip>

Bottom line: These aren't "profit reports," they are confessions.

<snip>

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. I got in an argument with somebody a year or so ago.

He was telling me that the high gas prices are do to increased prices of repairs, from Katrina and so on. I told them that doesn't pan out, because oil companies are making record profits. He said, yeah, but that's because they're paying so much for repairs. I said no, not record revenue, record profits. Revenue minus costs. Then his head exploded.

[spanone]

4. With record profits, what is their motivation to solve refinery problems???

NONE.

[AndyA]

6. Well, a Windfall Profits Tax against the big oil companies should kick start

their refinery repair program for one.

An investigation into gouging the public for another.

And for yet another, make the SOB's start paying for their oil leases that the Bush Administration has not collected. They are drilling for oil on our publicly owned land, but not paying for it.

[peacetheonlyway]

9. How about Chavez taking away the KEYS to all oil producers in Venezuela

and nationalizing (Taking control) of Venezuelan oil.

nobody seems to get that gas prices are result of Bush pissing off a key oil producing nation and now we the consumer have to pay for his lack of diplomacy, the dip wad.

that's my take on it.


*** I do love Chavez for showing gutz but the larger issue is how that affects consumer gas pricing in US and what democrat will repair that relationship if elected in 2008.

[lildreamer316]

11. Yes, but

we could at least attempt to be at full refining capacity here.
Oh, I don't know. All I know is that is it SO obvious that this is bullshit.

[dansolo]

21. Any Democrat could repair the relationship

Chavez isn't anti-America. He would very much like to continue his economic relationship with America. As long as we respect Venezuela's sovereignty, there shouldn't be any problems.

[On the Road]

12. Sounds Like Price Manipulation

[countryjake]

17. Ever live close to a refinery?

Talk to honest people who work at one, they will tell you it's like breathing off a lit cig lighter, continually. Griping about refineries not producing at full capacity ignores the science of the pollution these fire belchers emit.

We are engaged in an illegal and immoral occupation to solve the problem of "cheap" fuel for the indulgent, impossible lifestyle of so many in our nation. When will enough be enough? Nothing about the oil industry is "clean", from the flagrant stealing of resources right down to the sputtering puttering lawnmower we march around our yards every weekend. It's time to park the cars for good.

[dysfunctional press]

18. yep...refineries are motherfuckers, and it's easy for things to go wrong.

but that crap they always spew about no refineries being built due to govt. regs shouldn't hold much water anymore- seeing as they had 6 years with oil men in the white house and repuke yes-men controlling the house and senate to make the 'would-be' necessary changes. and didn't.

[Ezlivin]

19. New refineries are not worth the investment

As has been noted elsewhere, there's no point in spending the billions of dollars to build a refinery if it will not operate long enough to pay back the initial investment. As we are very near or at Peak Oil, it makes little sense to build refineries in the States. (Building them overseas is cheaper and allows the oil companies to avoid costly environmental regulations.)

If the actions - rather than the words - of the oil business's major players provide the best gauge of how they see the future, then ponder the following. Crude oil prices have doubled since 2001, but oil companies have increased their budgets for exploring new oil fields by only a small fraction. Likewise, U.S. refineries are working close to capacity, yet no new refinery has been constructed since 1976. And oil tankers are fully booked, but outdated ships are being decommissioned faster than new ones are being built. ( MIT: Technology Review)

Some people believe that no new refineries have been built due to the efforts of environmentalists. This belief is silly when one considers how much money and political influence the oil industry has compared to the environmental movement. You really think Ronald Reagan and George H. Bush were going to let a bunch of pesky environmentalists get in the way of oil refineries being built if the oil companies had wanted to build them?

The real reason no new refineries have been built for almost 30 years is simple: any oil company that wants to stay profitable isn't going to invest in new refineries when they know there is going to be less and less oil to refine. (LifeAfterTheOilCrash.net)