New DU Group: Socialist Progressives Group

[Skinner]

The mission of the DU Socialist Progressives Group is to link Socialist ideas and suggestions for political change to a Progressive framework, with the end result being positive and forward looking discussion and solidarity.

Click here to visit this group.

Click here to add this group to your My Forums list.

[mudesi]

1. I thought all of DU is supposed to be a socialist progressive group!

:evilgrin:

[bryant69]

13. Lord I hope not

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Catherine Vincent]

2. And all this time I thought the word "Socialist" was a bad name.

I listen to cspan too often. :)

[Cerridwen]

3. K & R and damn! I gotta get ready for work.

LOL

[xchrom]

4. very, very cool.

[femrap]

5. I have regarded Socialism as the moderate

economic system in between two radical ones....capitalism and communism.

Socialism = Sharing....you'd think the Christians would be on board with this. But as Ghandi said...I know your Christ and admire him, but why are there so few Christians like Christ? Something like that.

[Wiregrass Willie]

82. Let's go retail capitalist and wholesale socialist

I would like to see an economic system that is socialist in the areas of raw material production, transportation and health care -- while capitalist on the retail and manufacture end. Those old Populist of the 1880s were not all that far off.

[endarkenment]

6. Is there an equivalent Capitalist Retreads Group?

I don't want our friends on the other side here to feel left out.

[newyawker99]

7. Cool!

:thumbsup:

[Vilis Veritas]

8. There is nothing free...

and democratic about Socialism.

It has failed to live up to its ideals EVERY TIME. Why?

1. Socialism allows some people to steal from others and give their gains to the LESS FORTUNATE (read that as their friends).

2. Socialism is driven by ENVY.

3. Socialism says that the state rewards lazy people the same as those who are not lazy. Thereby removing incentive to work and create new things resulting in STAGNATION.

4. Socialism is a substitute for religion and always fails to live up to the Utopian ideal.

I have experienced it first hand. Lived it. Loved it and discarded it. Travel to China and see how the UTOPIAN IDEAL ALWAYS GETS CORRUPTED and then realize that China is now involved in the GREAT EXPERIMENT, mixing Capitalism and Socialism, WHY? Because SOCIALISM DOES NOT WORK. Unfortunately, innocent people are still dying and people are still being treated as a commodity.

This is my informed opinion. I welcome anyone who can point me to a single Socialist country that works...I am always looking to raise myself out of ignorance.

Begin Edit: Of course this is a newer better version, Socialist Progressivism, right? Interesting to see how it work out. End Edit:

Regards...

[bonito]

9. What we have is runaway unchecked capitalism

via corporate greed leaving a wide gap between most, A forum like this can shed some light on what might be done in fairness to help narrow the gap.
A problem now is globalization where corporate profit doesn't necessarily stay in this country.

[Vilis Veritas]

25. And we also have...

Great advances in modern science happening at the same time. Two edged sword.

Trick is to make Capitalism and socialism work together. China is trying that right now, however, I can tell you it is causing a lot of terrible things to happen in the name of progress.

To your points though:

1. The only way to check runaway growth is to kill it, trimming only works so long as the shears are sharp. Once you kill growth, lots of people on this planet will die. Of course an 85% reduction in population might do the world some good, eh?
2. Corporate Greed is a juggernaut that will not go quietly. Only the ignorant and ill informed will think otherwise.
3. The ignorant and ill-informed will always be used to further the agenda of the next group that wants to take power from the current group in power.
4. Corporate profit has NEVER stayed in the country of origin. The wealth of the TRULY RICH is vast and hidden.
5. Globalization is going to happen whether you like it or not. Actually, it already has happened, the ignorant and ill-informed are just blind to it.

We currently live in a time when even a common man like me can enjoy things that for the last 3 thousand years were only enjoyed by KINGS. Now a few american progressive socialist want to change that? Excuse me whilest I crack another beer and laugh.

Socialism doesn't work.

Of course, since I am not donating cash to DU, I will not be able to post in that group. Ah, capitalism.

[Tyler Durden]

35. Lots of unsupported stuff here kiddo.

1. Who says? Besides, growth can occur where the social order is altruistic: look at Greenpeace, the Sierra Club. Why can't you do that in industry without mega million dollar CEOs who do NOTHING?
2. It's HERE, it's EVIL, it's BIG so it should STAY??? You sound like someone who thought there was no difference between Bush and Gore.
3. Easy way to fix that in one generation: GOOD EDUCATION, the first tenant of ANY socialist philosphy.
4. See #2.
5. Globalization is the eventual GOAL of Socialist Theory. READ.

I think you need to remember something as you crack your beer: if you behave like a ROMANOV long enough, SOMEONE will do what neither of us wants. They will invent BOLSHEVICS, shoot you (and likely me, too) and throw our bodies down a well.

When you are "king of the hill," there really are two ways to go: DOWN while someone else becomes king, or FLATTEN THE MOUNTAINTOP so you can share the heights.

[Vilis Veritas]

41. I will take your advice.

and read. I can read that new group all I want for free.

Perhaps, I can cure my ignorance. Then donate and post a non-offensive post.

FYI: Never liked playing that game as a kid. It always seemed to me that once the game started nobody wanted to flatten the mountaintop, they all just wanted to be kings. I lost faith in humanity a long time ago <--that was the hardest thing to type without edit...

l8r

[Tyler Durden]

44. S'alright. I get awfully pessimistic myself.

Personally, I have my doubts that we will progress to the point of a caring, nurtuing society with world-wide implications and influences; but once in a while I have hope.

Socialist DO NOT want to be Communists, the goal is for ALL to excel, not for everyone to scratch in the dirt. Sort of like the Boston Marathon: everyone should FINISH; it's a PERSONAL GOAL. Winning is not the point: to FINISH is to WIN.

[Vilis Veritas]

48. That sounds good.

I will read more about socialist theory.

Any book rec's would be appreciated.

Thanks for taking time to 'raise me from my ignorance'.

[Tyler Durden]

51. "Igorance" and not cognisant of a subject are two different animals.

Pre-Marx: A New View of Society, Or, Essays on the Principle of the
Formation of the Human Character, and the Application of the
Principle to Practice
by Robert Owen
1813-16
http://socserv2.socsci.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/owen/newview.txt

John Stuart Mill: Liberalism Evaluated, 1873
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1873jsmill.html

E. Belfort Bax
Modern Socialism
(August 1879)
http://www.marxists.org/archive/bax/1879/08/socialism.htm

Start there. Fordham U has a great archive of viewable Socialist essay.

[Vilis Veritas]

53. Thank you. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. Why don't you post it in the group.

You might "raise yourself out of ignorance."

[bonito]

14. Just saying that would be my goal n/t

Ops thought you were responding to me and I might be in for an eyeopener, lol

[Vilis Veritas]

26. Since I do not

Donate to DU, I could not post. I tried.

Thanks.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. Why don't you donate to DU?

I'd think somebody who so quickly calls other people "envious" wouldn't be to concerned about a little bit of money.

[Vilis Veritas]

30. Why should I donate?

Just wondering?

It is not the money. And if my post offended you, I apologize.

Those thoughts were just my opinion on what drives the call for Socialism. They were not meant to offend. My apologies if I did.

Regards.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Because you said you wanted to be lifted from ignorance.

How bad do you want it?

[Vilis Veritas]

33. I will consider it.

And then I will lock my keyboard and not post until the ignorance has been lifted.

Thanks.

[Occulus]

87. FYI, I have that particular poster on ignore

No idea who it is unless I log out. But, it looks like someone was trying to bait you, and thus it's (to me at least) likely one of the Usual Suspects.

Don't let 'em get to ya; that's what the 'ignore' feature is for. Avail thyself of such, and thy DU experience shall remain white and pure as a child's prayer (unless, of course, thy child is Satantic, in which case its prayers are a sort of black that light seems to fall into)...

Ahem.

Go ahead and donte, even $5. I let my donor status lapse some time ago (:blush:) but just the search function is well worth that little drip of pennies.

[endarkenment]

57. Ha -hmmmm - something ironic about that.

Not quite sure why somebody staunchly advoacting free market puritanism freeloading on DU is ironic, but it sure strikes me that way.

[Iris]

15. I suppose you could insert the word "capitalism" into all 4 points as well.

n/t

[mainegreen]

17. Yes. Scandinavia *is* a complete failure.

You seem to think that socialism and capitalism mixing is a result of socialisms failure. Perhaps it is better to recognize that neither capitalism nor socialism will function as well as the two mixed. It does appear that a socialist system that takes pressure off of businesses to care for the workforce actually allows business to thrive.

[stimbox]

23. There is nothing free...

and democratic about Capitalism.

It has failed to live up to its ideals EVERY TIME. Why?

1. Capitalism allows some people to steal from others and give their gains to the MORE FORTUNATE (read that as their friends).

2. Capitalism is driven by GREED.

3. Capitalism says that the state rewards lazy people the same as those who are not lazy. Thereby removing incentive to work and create new things resulting in STAGNATION.

4. Capitalism is a substitute for religion and always fails to live up to the Utopian ideal.

[Exiled in America]

40. hehe I didn't see someone else did this. See mine... I did the whole thing. :)

[Left Hook]

73. Uhhhhhh

I get all but #3

[LostinVA]

86. SNAP

[rhiannon55]

24. Welcome to DU

ahem...enjoy your visit...;-)

[Vilis Veritas]

28. Thanks.

It was just my opinion, unpopular as it will be...

[Tyler Durden]

29. Oh great. Use corrupted Chinese Communism for an example of socialism: VERY logical.

If you truly knew something about classical socialist theory, you would know that it is BASED on Democratic principles, and without them (like in China and the Soviet Union) it always fails.

As you have decided to post a series of "Talking Points" and MEME's combined with logical falacies, there really is no point in de-bunking your post. I would say, however, that the best example of a Socialist institution would be the best Universal Healthcare System in the world; that is, the one in Japan.

[Exiled in America]

37. There is nothing free...

and democratic about Capitalism.

It has failed to live up to its ideals EVERY TIME. Why?

1. Capitalism allows some people to steal from others and give their gains to the powerful (read that as their friends).

2. Capitalism is driven by GREED.

3. Capitalism says that the state provides welfare to corporations and punishes those who are not lazy. Thereby removing the incentive of the worker to work and the hope of an ordinary person resulting in STAGNATION.

4. Capitalism is a substitute for religion and always fails to live up to the Utopian ideal.

I have experienced it first hand. Lived it. Love it and discarded it. Travel to the United States and see how the UTOPIAN IDEAL (because Capitalism is just as much an ideal as any other system) ALWAYS GETS CORRUPTED and then realize that the USA is now involved in the GREAT EXPERIMENT: mixing capitalism with corporatocracy, which is the definition of fascism. Why? Because CAPITALISM DOES NOT WORK. Unfortunately, innocent people are still dying and people are still being treated as a commodity.

This is my informed opinion. I welcome anyone who can point me to a single Capitalism country that works.... I am always looking to raise myself out of ignorance.

Begin Edit: of course this is a newer better version, American Capitalism, right? Interesting to see how it is working out (as our country continues to decline and destroy itself under the weight of its own greed). End Edit:

Regards...

[Vilis Veritas]

50. Very Funny. No really.

Thank you for helping me, for I am obviously one of the truly ignorant.

US was never a Democracy. US was founded as a Republic. I think...

The US is currently a Republic that is led by a Representative Democracy who periodically puts in power a new leader using the Electoral College after allowing the people to cast their votes via TV all with the purse-strings managed by Corporations.

Currently, I think that the US is a Corporate Oligarchy. I could be wrong. Oh wait, I probably am wrong. ;-)

[Exiled in America]

60. It is relevant to analyze the US as a democracy for several reasons:

First of all, the United States was founded as a democracy. Yup, its true. I know, I know we've all heard people say "its not a democracy, its a republic" - but that is semantics. The Republic is a representative democracy: the notion is that representatives do the will of the people, and if they don't the people replace the representatives through the election process.

However, there is a more important reason why it is necessarily to analyze the united states as a "democracy" even if it is technically many other things. That reason is, because our leaders, media and power-holders in this country all constantly use the rhetoric of two words - freedom and democracy - as propaganda pieces to exert power over the masses. "Democracy" is an American ideology. It doesn't even matter if the system isn't technically setup as a direct democracy, which of course it isn't.

I agree with you that the US is currently an oligarchy. But it is an oligarchy that uses the propaganda of "freedom" to create the necessary illusions required to control the masses and keep them in line -- in line means, consuming and shutting the fuck up.

And, none of this changes the fact that capitalism as a system and ideology is horribly, horribly beset with problems, and what's worse - unlike socialism in which most incarnations have failed to live up to its ideal - Capitalism is actually fundamentally built the the need for inequality. Capitalism doesn't work at all without and exploited class at its foundation. At least it never has.

I'd like to throw out a different opinion, if I may. In my opinion, the reason that no governmental system works very well (at least none so far) for very long is because it is always being set up to govern too many people. People don't work well in large systems. You can look at almost ever type of thing and see that the bigger it gets the more it starts to have real troubles, especially when it comes to equality among other things.

Until people figure out that the nation-state concept is a failure, and until we being to rebuilt local communities... no, not communities.... tribes where in people in small groups work together, share responsibilities and have a direct voice in the affairs of their tribe, we will continue to have miserable experiences, savage injustice, awful violence and we will get to keep sitting around pontificating about how and why all of the large governmental systems theory we try never seems to work that well.

It's really funny... if we just would have learned from native Americans instead of slaughtering them, we might have learned a thing or two about approaches that actually work.

[scarletwoman]

69. Oh! Excellent, excellent post! (wish we could "recommend" individual posts in a thread)

Decentralization is where it's at! We MUST get down to local community-based enterprises; control of local resources, food production, trade agreements, and energy generation.

sw

[Vilis Veritas]

74. Would Madison agree with you?

James Madison in the Federalist #9 and #10 specifically calls this great country a Republic and he sets about explaining why.

Madison signed the document founding this country. He wrote the many papers defining the requirements for setting up this country and the kinds of things that needed to be in the document that defined the limits to the powers of the government. He called it a Republic. In Federalist 9, he actualy tries to explain how we will endeavor to raise the Republic to a new standard, by implementing a Constitution. I kind of gathered that both Democracies and Republics were not thought of well at the time of his writing...

Hence, The United States is a Constitutional Republic, with a document that limits the powers of government and the use of democratic principle. The Constitution provides the means by which checks and balances are spelled out and used to effectively limit the effects of the democratic principle which, according to Madison in Federalist #10:

"Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."

He closes the paper with, "In the extent and proper structure of the Union, therefore, we behold a republican remedy for the diseases most incident to republican government. And according to the degree of pleasure and pride we feel in being republicans, ought to be our zeal in cherishing the spirit and supporting the character of Federalists."

I think we can all agree that the current administration is trying to tear apart the very fabric of the ONE document that gives us all the rights we currently enjoy.

My apologies for my previous ignorance. I am sure that you think it continues unabated. Again, I apologize for thinking the way I do, I sincerely mean no offense.

l8r

The federalist papers are very good reading for anyone interested.
Links:
The first page has the term Constitutional Republican Government.
http://www.constitution.org/
The Federalist Papers
http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa00.htm

[Exiled in America]

75. Yes, Madison would agree with me.

First of all, if we're going to continue this discussion, you should knock off all the sarcasm. In every post you've made, you've made these clearly exaggerated statements of apology that obviously have nothing to do with being humble, and everything to do with how right and/or smart you think you are.

That's fine that you think you're right and smart. I think you are smart at the very least. But I'm smart too, so please stop insulting my intelligence with your "I apologize for my ignorance" baloney.

Secondly, your response basically ignores my entire post. Since after the opening I go on to point out that the debate over the semantics of whether or not America should be considered some kind of democratic state since its inception is totally irrelevant. What relevant is that for centuries leaders of this country have thrown around the word "democracy" when referring to America as one piece of an indoctrinating ideology that pacifies the people and keeps them in check.

Having said that however, Madison is talking about a direct democracy. A representative democracy, which is what we have still has the word "democracy" in it, doesn't it? There's a reason for that: because that's what it is.

Do you really know what Madison is saying here? Because I'm not sure you do. He, and most of the rest of the rich, white, property owning "founding fathers" had no desire to share power with the unprivileged masses. The wanted a system where their "class" of people could rule over the mass of everyone else without incident.

Direct Democracy is a huge problem to that because typically what is in the interests of the masses is not necessarily in the interests of the elite. You can't have a bunch of poor non-land owners (and certainly not non-white people or women!) with that much power! And yet, you're about to set up a government over a bunch of people who had come to the new world with the vision of freedom and choice. So what do you do?

You construct a system that allows you to still use all the rhetoric of liberty and freedom while keeping the general population as abstracted from the actual decision making and "governing" as possible. A republic provides a "buffer" between the ruling class and the masses, and helps make revolution and social upheaval more uncommon and ineffective (but not impossible as history has repeatedly shown.)

Which leads me back to my previous point in my previous post on how it doesn't matter if America is not technically a democracy in the strictest sense of the term (i.e. its not a direct democracy, its still a democracy.)

That reason why thinking about the word Democracy in relationship to this country matters is because our leaders, media and power-holders in this country all constantly use the rhetoric of two words - freedom and democracy - as propaganda pieces to exert power over the masses. "Democracy" is an American ideology. It doesn't even matter if the system isn't technically setup as a direct democracy, which of course it isn't.

[Vilis Veritas]

76. You are right.

I ignored your post about the semantics and then debated you on semantics rather then the meat of your post.

I do understand what Madison was saying. I understand that the government was created by landowners for landowners. I was battling constitutional semantics.

I also agree that the tribal form of government is a good model. However, I am uncertain that unless we have a devastating catastrophic event that we will ever slip back to the Tribal form of government willingly...of course with Global Warming and a plethora of other earthly ills, the Hopi just might get their wish...

Regards,

[stimbox]

55. Great minds think alike.

I like your post more.
Nice expansion of the ideas.
:yourock:

[mudesi]

47. Wow. I could have read that post on freerepublic.com

I see you haven't missed a single right wing talking point in that post. By the way, China is not socialist, China is a communist authoritative dictatorship.

I live in a socialist country. We call it Canada. Our richer provinces pay taxes to the federal government which then redistributes much of those taxes (called "transfer payments") to the poorer provinces. The poorer provinces can thus pay for the universal health care, education, and other social safety nets that they otherwise wouldn't be able to afford.

It works.

[Vilis Veritas]

49. Jeesh...now I know I am ignorant.

The freeper site sucks.

At least ignorance can be cured. I will work on it.

[Tyler Durden]

52. Now be nice.

Socialist are supposed to be humanists. It's the "COMMIES" that are the Meanies.

[IronLionZion]

56. actually, corruption ruins any system

I'm pretty sure the problem is corruption, not the system.

Northern Europe seems to be doing well with their public education and health care systems.

Now read about the Kerala phenomenon in India. My family is from Kerala, one of the most left-wing places in the world. Life is surprisingly good there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala_model

[WritingIsMyReligion]

62. That's called totalitarianism and communism en-route.

China was headed for communism; Mao himself wanted nothing more than to have the entire fucking countryside in communes of thousands of people in deference to Mao-Thought. It never got there, largely because of Mao and his power trips and highly unpragmatic manner. I mean, 30 million people died in the Great Leap Forward because of Mao, not because of socialism or communism, but because of the way Mao handled (didn't handle?) the situation. Some socialists can handle just plain-out socialism without the power trip and need for cults and communism. Do not confuse socialism with communism; they are not the same.

[iverglas]

70. and if ever the need for the group needed explication

... why, it's all laid out right there in that post.

And no, please, no one suggest taking this noise to the group. As I understand it, groups are for people who share values/goals/interests to discuss them, not to fend off vitriolic nonsense.

[LostinVA]

85. yada yada yada

Democratic Socialism is the way to go.

on edit: Socialism is driven by compassion.

[Matsubara]

10. As an avowed socialist who merely votes dem for lack of other options, great!

NT

[Matsubara]

11. Ooops, gotta be a donor to post there...

Well, maybe sometime when I'm a little more flush...

[supernova]

20. Donations --

Just FYI - you can donate $5 bucks and get a star.

Alternatively, during the next fund drive, there will be people who want to give away stars to other DUers. So you might want to look for that. That's how I got my first star.

So, don't worry. :D

[Critters2]

64. Same here. nt

[Skidmore]

16. I just never have understood how someone who is democratic

cannot, by definition, be socialistic.

[supernova]

19. Agree with you totally

Skidmore.

I don't really understand why more Dems don't support more socialist principles. And I realize it's partly the war on Socialism, as in the other thread.

But I think it's really that we haven't had an economy, for any length of time that *wasn't* growing.

[supernova]

18. Heartily support!

:thumbsup: :D

[proud patriot]

21. Great

:hi: Thanks for the heads up

[rug]

22. Thank you, comrade.

[mdmc]

32. nice

:kick:

[Solon]

34. My only problem is the name, what the hell is a "Socialist Progressive"?

I know what a Democratic Socialist is, I know what a Social Democrat is, I even know what an Libertarian-Socialist is, but I never heard of a Socialist Progressive.

[Tyler Durden]

36. I invented the title with Skinner to define the group.

We toyed with several, and decided the goup was for PROGRESSIVES who believed in SOCIALIST concepts more or less...ergo: Socialist who are PROGRESSIVES.

Keeps the wolves away.

[IChing]

38. Thanks for starting the group n/t

[Tyler Durden]

42. Wasn't looking for credit...but thanks anyway.

We desperately needed a space to skull some principles without being flamed.

[Solon]

43. OK, I guess I can buy that....

Though there are only two groups I can think of that are "socialists" but aren't progressive, the Labour Party of Britain and the Communists, for different reasons, of course.

[Tyler Durden]

45. Never felt the Communists were Socialist m'self.

Sort of like comparing a pig to a duck. Both warm-blooded but that's about it.

[IronLionZion]

54. Yeah, I really hate those socialist REGRESSIVES

let's keep those backward bastards away! :silly:

[endarkenment]

58. e.g. Joe Stalin

[Exiled in America]

39. Too bad you have to be a donor to post there. I lost my job and working on losing the house

..I have internet until they decide to shut it off for not paying my bill.

I can't really "donate" to anyone.

[Tyler Durden]

46. Will there be a way for you to stay on the 'net if you get a star?

$5 is a small ticket to contribute, but it's pointless if won't be online.

[Exiled in America]

61. Yeah I don't know yet... I need to get back on my feet first.

Working on employment... so I don't really know quite yet.

[Forkboy]

59. I was in the same boat (still am)

Maybe a kind soul will be your benefactor like they were with me.

[IChing]

63. Someone gave you a star........forkboy!!!!

[Rainscents]

65. Thanks Skinner!

[Critters2]

66. Thank you, Skinner, for creating this group!! nt

[Rex]

67. Good idea.

I'm sure Adam Smith would like this new group.

[nam78_two]

68. Very cool.nt

[ChazII]

71. Spent my college years attending SWP meetings

a bit too left for me.

[Tyler Durden]

81. A bit too left for most of us.

SWP would be a bit too left for SWEDEN.

[Bentcorner]

72. Great. Way to make it seem Democrats are a bunch of socialists.

[BeerIsClear]

77. Isn't that the point?

It's about time the Democrats took a stand for socialism.

Socialism is the only way we're going to get any justice, and if the Democrats would stop being such pussies and stop letting the rightists keep demonizing the term socialist, we just might get somewhere.

[endarkenment]

78. A bunch of democrats are socialists.

We have all sorts of democrats here. Some of us support stalinsit socialist programs like social security, public education, environmental regulation, universal single payer healthcare, unions, fair trade instead of rampant free market globalization, equal rights for all people, you know that kind of socialist nonsense. But with more folks like you around, we probably won't get noticed.

[Blue_Tires]

79. ttt one time nt

[Tyler Durden]

80. Calling all Commies...NOT.

Hey, where you at? C'mon Comrades and git some!

It's awfully quiet over there.

[Tyler Durden]

83. A KICK for the COMMIES.

I have to stop calling us that.

[LostinVA]

84. Yay!!!

[Tyler Durden]

88. Kicking again.

C'mon you Socialists and other fellow travelers: check in!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=395x1

[Tyler Durden]

89. one more time.

[Tyler Durden]

90. Kickeroony

[Tyler Durden]

91. Uno mas kick

[rug]

92. Can you take care of this? Some Mensheviks are hogging all the chairs.

[Tyler Durden]

93. ?