Women are dominating in higher education and will continue to do so, experts say.

[AngryAmish]

...For last year's graduating class, women dominated at every level of higher education. Here's the national breakdown: for every 100 men, 142 women graduated with a bachelors, 159 women completed a master's and 107 women got a doctoral degree. University of Michigan Economics Professor Dr. Mark Perry says similar numbers are in tow this year."


good or bad?

[Echo In Light]

1. They'll RULE the WORLD!!! ....

:P ...and I haven't a problem w/that

[seabeyond]

4. so you put a picture up of a woman with legs spread.... lol

geeez echo.

[Echo In Light]

14. That's a bit of a reach. It's a bad movie about women who want to take over the world.

... used as a template of sorts for Austin Powers

[seabeyond]

26. a bet tongue in cheek

echo.... thought funny.

[Echo In Light]

34. .

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ULh4GZRtGaw/S6j_ZkjIxeI/AAAAAAAAAQk/TquSK6J-r6g/s320/austin+powers.jpg

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

39. She just has a wide stance

Republican, no doubt.

:hi:

[Echo In Light]

43. Who/what are you referring to?

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

44. Referring to your advertisement picture in post 1

More accurately, I guess she's SITTING with a wide stance. sort of.

Never mind. Just me making one more dumb wisecrack, not worth pursuing.

:hi:

[Starry Messenger]

19. Ironically:

Dr. Mark J. Perry is a professor of economics and finance in the School of Management at the Flint campus of the University of Michigan. Perry holds two graduate degrees in economics (M.A. and Ph.D.) from George Mason University near Washington, D.C. In addition, he holds an MBA degree in finance from the Curtis L. Carlson School of Management at the University of Minnesota. Perry is currently on sabbatical from the University of Michigan and is a visitor at The American Enterprise Institute in Washington, D.C.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/06/great-man-cession-of-2008-2009.html

This is the "expert" cited in the OP's article. I thought it was funny anyway. :D

[Dappleganger]

2. Who the HELL is unrecc'ing this thread??

COWARDS.

[mzteris]

3. tiny little men with tiny little

brains!

What? You thought I was gonna say something else?? :evilgrin:


They're just afraid. Poor little things.

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. So, inequality is .... good?

I need a playbook.

[Brickbat]

5. "Dominating"? Does that just mean that there are more women than men graduating?

Just like there are more women than men in the general population?

And why "good or bad"? It just is.

[seabeyond]

6. agreed to both points. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. Women are 50% more likely to go to college than men.

Women are 80% of teachers and administrators.

Women run education for the benefit of girls.

It's only bad if you're male.

[Hello_Kitty]

56. Not our fault that male culture promotes the idea that education is for "sissies"

The more women enter into something the more it becomes "feminized" and the more men disdain it.

We're not taking the blame for this, dude, sorry.

[lumberjack_jeff]

61. Education isn't a male culture.

Given the demographics of college students (and their teachers) explain to me the purpose of this program;

http://www2.ed.gov/programs/equity/index.html

This program promotes education equity for women and girls through competitive grants. The program designates most of its funding for local implementation of gender-equity policies and practices. Research, development, and dissemination activities also may be funded. Projects may be funded for up to four years.

The Women's education equity program, if implemented in the way that its name implies, would recruit 50% more men into college.

Humans "disdain" clubs from which they are institutionally excluded.

[Hello_Kitty]

63. So start your own grant program. Seriously.

Do women have to do EVERYTHING for you?

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. Good point.

I wish there were less confusion in general society about the purpose of the women's movement. It's about advocacy, not equality.

You're absolutely right. It's time for a progressive men's movement to correct such institutional inequities. I'd suggest it start with a men's forum on DU.

[Romulox]

78. If this came down the other way, you'd easily identify institutionalized sexism.

Making feminism a one way street is ultimately self-defeating.

[Hello_Kitty]

96. It's not feminism's responsibility to solve men's problems.

Sorry.

[Romulox]

97. It would be helpful if feminism could be internally consistent, though.

Feminism is supposed to be about equality, not revenge fantasy. :hi:

[Hello_Kitty]

99. Consistent with what? Your idea of what it should be?

"revenge fantasy"? :wtf:

Oh, wait, I get it now. It's that Scary Strawfeminism rearing its head again. The frightening specter that paranoid men terrified of losing their privilege have concocted to represent feminism. Have fun burning the Strawfeminist! :hi:

[Romulox]

100. No--advocacy for "equality". My statement wasn't ambiguous in any way. nt

[Kalyke]

126. I'm a feminist and I don't give a fuck all about revenge.

I just want to be respected and paid at the same level males are.

FWIW, I finally am - and my direct boss is a female. It's a small family-owned company and, as a result of her influence, her husband, who is C-level, asks me for advice.

The only way women get ahead is to have a woman or a feminist male as their direct supervisor.

[Hello_Kitty]

108. I identify a generation of young men on Xbox all day instead of being made to study.

If that's institutionalized sexism it's not the fault of feminists.

[Kalyke]

58. Women run education for the benefit of girls?

Since when?

They didn't when I was in school and, now that I'm the mother of a pre-teen boy, I can attest that they don't now.

Granted, there are now more female educators in top positions, such as principals and administrators, than there were when I was in school, but the tests to which they teach are absolutely gender-biased in favor of the male.

http://www.fairtest.org/gender-bias-college-admissions-tests

Approximately 1.3 million high school students annually take the Educational Testing Service's SAT I, America's oldest and most widely used college entrance exam. It is composed of two sections, Verbal and Math, each scored on a 200-800 point scale. Test questions are almost exclusively multiple-choice; a few "student-produced response" questions require the student to "grid in" the answer.

The SAT I is designed solely to predict students' first year college grades. Yet, despite the fact that females earn higher grades throughout both high school and college, they consistently receive lower scores on the exam than do their male counterparts. In 2001, females averaged 35 points lower than males on the Math section of the test, and 3 points lower on the Verbal section.

A gender gap favoring males persists across all other demographic characteristics, including family income, parental education, grade point average, course work, rank in class, size of high school, size of city, etc.

Contrary to the test-maker's assertions, the gender gap does not merely reflect differences in academic preparation. ETS researchers Howard Wainer and Linda Steinberg found that on average, males score 33 points higher on the SAT-Math than females who earn the same grades in the same college math courses. The authors state that the "consistent under prediction of women's performance in college mathematics courses provides evidence that the SAT-M, used alone, is mismeasuring the profile of proficiencies that contribute to success in college."

So maybe the reason women go to college in higher numbers has more to do with self-discipline than with some mythical idea that a female educators cater to girls.

Edited to add a shared sentiment with the poster just above me: We're not taking the blame for this one, dude.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. So... males perform 33% better than girls on the math SAT...

yet are 50% less likely than girls to graduate from college, with worse grades?

This is a poor example to use to argue that the the fact that those 4 out of 5 of the teachers those students encounter are women, doesn't introduce bias.

Of course, it must be the test. Math has a huge gender bias. :eyes:

[Hello_Kitty]

105. So what are the teachers doing that is making boys perform at a lower level?

So far you are drawing a correlation from the mere presence of more women in teaching and administrative positions to declining college graduation rates of males. You have yet to explain what exactly those female teachers and administrators are doing to boys to discourage them from learning.

[lumberjack_jeff]

112. Yet you have no difficulty contemplating a patriarchal system.

e.g. a male-run system which effectively precludes female contribution and success.

But you asked, and I answered, this question already downthread.

[Yupster]

128. Teachers are

using instructional techniques that they know they learn best with assuming their students learn best that way too. Of course boys and girls learn differently, so if all your teachers are women, that's tough on a boy.

Teachers are calling students in to complete their written work during recess for the students who don't do their written work fastest in class. That causes mostly boys to miss recess, the class they may need the very most. Same for PE.

Teachers are enforcing discipline rules in ways that cause buckets of boys being sent to the office for every girl. No tolerance rules are a disaster to boys, but it isn't the only one. My own family had this just come up. My kid had a pool party at my house for his birthday. My wife set out by the pool and told the boys, not to dunk each other, push each other, jump or dive near each other, race each other. So what could they do? Stand and talk to each other. Which is what my wife remembers as a pool party. That's not what I remember as a pool party. We dunked, pushed, raced, cannonballed, etc. Just differences between girls and boys, and in this case the girl made the rules for the boys. Same is happening in recess and hallways and gym classes all across the nation.

This whole issue is worst in inner city neighborhoods where there are few men in the homes of the students. The kids are needing male role models so they go to school and have all women teachers and a woman asistant principla and a woman principal. Aren't there any men at all in the school? Yes -- usually there are male custodians.

IT's a real and growing problem. So far it looks like putting the boys on behavior altering drugs seems to be the answer of choice.

[Hello_Kitty]

133. Maybe your wife was thinking that if one of those kids got hurt at the party you all would be liable

Really, not everything is a gender war.

As far as differences between genders go, while there are differences in general between boys and girls, they aren't as stark as you're making them out to be. Believe it or not, when I was a kid we girls used to do cannon balls and dive and dunk each other. When you internalize rigid dualistic frames about gender it becomes harder see the individuals and it can become more about prescribing behavior rather than just observing it. The rambunctious girl is viewed as "wrong" and gets shoehorned into more "appropriate" behavior for her gender. Same with the quiet boy who likes to study and eschews roughhousing and sports.

[Scout]

134. +10,000

girl stuff was BORING! got so fucking sick of being told to act like a young lady, blah fucking blah

i was told to "not go around beating boys at sports" and all that bullshit, "hide your light under a bushel basket," and other crap, to try to make me suck up to the fragile egos of boys. piss on that.

[Romulox]

80. Upwards of 90% of my teachers at all level have been women. nt

[Hello_Kitty]

106. And? What does that prove?

BTW, want to see more men in the teaching profession? Pay teachers more.

[KamaAina]

76. "Women run education for the benefit of girls"?

Seriesly?

Studies show, for instance, that even female teachers are more likely to call on boys in their class.

[Hello_Kitty]

104. What are some specific ways that women run education for the benefit of girls, as you allege?

What specific things are the women doing that are detrimental to the education of boys?

[lumberjack_jeff]

109. It's hard to quantify when no one cares.

Where is the "AAUM"?
Where is the men's education equity program?
The prevailing educational stereotype is that education shortchanges girls, when the reverse is demonstrably true.
http://www.uaf.edu/northern/schools/myth.html That stereotype affects educational policy and behavior throughout the system.

As a father of three sons, I have lots of anecdotal experience. The female principal who suspended my second-grader for "pre-gang activity". 8 years later, the police were called by a pearl-clutching school counselor because he was passing a note to another student about toy guns. 10 years later, the same principal was going to write up my youngest for "fondling another student". It turns out he was attempting to grab a playground ball away from his friend who was sitting on it.

My student experience didn't prepare me for a parent experience, because schools have fundamentally changed. What once was normal play is now considered dangerous pathology.

The main fundamental failing of schools is the indoctrination of the idea that normal male childhood behavior is a sickness by an educational system run by people with no experience being boys. Who the hell wants to be a part of that?

http://www.amazon.com/Minds-Boys-Saving-Falling-Behind/dp/0787977616

[Hello_Kitty]

117. Zero tolerance policies are stupid as hell but plenty of girls get punished by them too.

Girls get arrested for giving a Midol to a friend. Your anecdotes do not persuade me that there's some jihad against boys going on in the school system. Seems to me there's an increasing climate of repressiveness in schools in general and cutting PE and recess because you have to "teach to the test" doesn't help boys or girls.

It's been a long time since I've been in school but in volunteer and mentoring work I've done with young people it doesn't appear that there's been this radical transformation in the schools where they are dungeons for boys but days at the beach for girls.

Oh, and speaking of fondling - When I was in junior high there were boys who would run around grabbing girls breasts or butts. When we complained to the male principal about it we were told basically that "boys will be boys". I surely hope you are not advocating for a return of those days.

[MellowDem]

45. "It just is"

Just like blacks are disproportionally living in poverty. It's not good or bad. It just is.

Women are graduating at rates disproportionate to their share of the population.

[Bill McBlueState]

116. aren't there important differences

between "living in poverty" and "not graduating from college"?

[MellowDem]

132. Yes, but I would think they're both problems...

when certain groups in the population have disproportionate numbers for either, not something to just be shrugged off.

[mainer]

8. Women just learn to focus at an earlier age.

Men take a few years to grow used to their hormones and then they get serious about things. I know a number of men who were total slackers in high school and college, and later suddenly transformed into high achievers in their late twenties. They just needed time to catch up.

[Viking12]

29. IMHO there are borader cultural factors at work

There is strong peer-pressure on boys/men not to be "smart"

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

35. Maybe males have better paying jobs out of high-school

A lot of skilled labor pays as well as generic 4-year degree jobs and men are likelier to be carpenters, plumbers, etc.

Higher education may be more economically essential for women.

[lumberjack_jeff]

40. The only reason that jobs requiring equal skill are paid differently

is because of the suck / nice ratio.

Coal mining pays well. High suck factor. Walking dogs, not. Low suck factor.

Higher education is essential for women, because we don't want them doing dangerous or otherwise shitty jobs.

[KittyWampus]

41. Coal Mining pays well? We don't women doing dangerous or "shitty" jobs?

:wtf:

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. Aside from a missing verb, that's what I said.

Explain why you disagree.

[wickerwoman]

62. Go teach preschool for four hours....

wipe noses and asses, clean up pools of pee, listen to constant screaming (most early childhood carers lose their hearing), be kicked, punched, spit at *and* have to stand there and take it because *god forbid* a parent sees you talking sternly to Junior and damaging his fragile self-esteem. Have your heart leap out of your chest because you can't find a kid or you see him about to break his skull open. Do it for $10/hr despite needing a 4-year tertiary degree because ECE is a "calling" and not just a job.

Then we'll talk.

[lumberjack_jeff]

74. Why is the worst job in the world, "a calling"?

Were you drafted?

I've never heard a teacher say "I hate these little fuckers, but I only have 2 years on my sentence." or "Yeah, the probability of getting black lung from the glitter and glue sticks is very high, but what else can I do in which I can earn this much money?"

[wickerwoman]

77. Calling it a "calling" is an excuse to pay you shit for it.

At least if you're a miner, you're allowed to say it's a shit job. But if you work with kids you *have* to love it, or at least pretend you do because what parent is going to leave their kid with a teacher who doesn't love their job? And administrators exploit the fact that you "love" your job or at least can't admit that you don't, to pay you essentially minimum wage despite your needing a college degree.

You don't hear teachers complain because they can lose their jobs if they do. Most quit after two to five years with huge student debt and a useless degree for a job they hate. Why do you think that is? And can you name a similar profession with a comparable rate of attrition? Why don't all those miners get ECE degrees and teach pre-school since it's such a cushy gig?

[Romulox]

81. Wages are set by supply and demand. Not by "desert". nt

[wickerwoman]

85. Not in child care.

Nobody is going to pay a carer more than they can earn themselves. That's why good child care is almost impossible to find. The wages are depressed because they have to be affordable to the main market (lower and middle class households, single mothers). But you still need a college degree (and usually college debt) to do it.

There's desperate demand for childcare in most areas but the wages never go up. And because of regulations you can't take more kids per carer to meet the demand. It's not an economy of scale.

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. The pay is what it is because LOTS of people go to school to become teachers.

And if 133% of the national median salary is "shit" I think we need to rethink our definitions.

(The median elementary teacher makes $40,000. The national median pay is 31,410)

The way to raise the salaries of teachers is to train daughters to be plumbers, linemen and long haul truckdrivers instead.

[wickerwoman]

86. See post 85.

I'm not talking about elementary school. I'm talking about ECE. The toilet training years. They make $10/hr. And even in the darkest hours of the last depression, there were 20x as many job postings for early childhood than any other kind of teaching. You can immigrate to almost any country in the world with 3 years experience in ECE. They step ahead of software engineers in many places the demand is so desperate.

And traditionally, when women enter "male" professions the wages go down. That's what happened to teaching anyway.

[Romulox]

101. They make as much as people are willing to pay them. And as much as they're willing to accept.

Nothing you've posted changes any of this.

"And even in the darkest hours of the last depression, there were 20x as many job postings for early childhood than any other kind of teaching."

People aren't willing to do it for the wage offered; the offerors are not willing (or able) to offer any more. So the jobs go unfilled. That's basic economics for you.

"You can immigrate to almost any country in the world with 3 years experience in ECE. "

Right. But an economist would say that those ECE workers who remain in the US at the wage offered do so because they value the entire package of living and working in the US more than they do working for a higher wage outside the US ("utility"). We're still not out of supply + demand.

"And traditionally, when women enter "male" professions the wages go down."

It has to do with a new source of wage competition. An increased supply of labor leads to lower wages. Always will, given a constant demand.

[Hello_Kitty]

115. But if men leave a profession in droves once women start entering it

Then it should return to equilibrium or a shortage of labor, thus causing wages to rise again. That hasn't happened in any profession that has been "feminized".

[lumberjack_jeff]

107. Your second point

"Why don't all those miners get ECE degrees and teach preschool since it's such a cushy gig?"

The work schedule is comparatively cushy, summers "off" is one of the things that attracts so many students to the field.

... there's nothing preventing teachers from going to work in the coal mines, on a power pole, on fishing boats, or in the woods.

Lack of education prevents the reverse, which brings us full circle. Education is administered by women for the benefit of girls, because "boys have lots of alternatives".

[Hello_Kitty]

114. Yeah, like playing Xbox all day while their sisters do homework and help around the house.

It wasn't too long ago when the vast majority of college grads were male and no one was calling it a "crisis" for girls. The problem IMHO is idiot permissive parents who can't bear the thought of tearing Widdle Pookums away from his Xbox and making him study. And listening to others idiots who tell them that making a boy sit at a desk and behave for a few hours a day is a horrible repression of his masculine spirit. (Even though that same boy can sit in front of Xbox for 9 hours straight.)

[lumberjack_jeff]

121. You've pushed that bigoted stereotype ad-nauseum.

Boys are lazy, ignorant sucky people. We get it.

40 years ago, they absolutely WERE calling it a crisis for girls, and that's exactly why so many more women go to college now.

[Hello_Kitty]

124. Nope, there's nothing wrong with the boys.

The problem is the parents who are buying into bullcrap stereotypes about boys and shortchanging their sons. Like another smart DUer said on this thread, unplug the PS3 or the Xbox and hand him a schoolbook. You're the parent. You're in charge. You either prioritize education and responsible behavior for your kids or you don't.

[lumberjack_jeff]

127. Sure there is, but it's nothing that your stereotyping is going to cure.

[wickerwoman]

118. Preschools don't close in the summer.

Does everyone get the summer off work so they don't need childcare anymore? No? The schedule is the same as every other job... just a bit earlier 7-4 Monday to Friday. And god help you if you get sick... *no sympathy*- your ass if fired if you don't show up despite the fact that you're wiping the noses of half a dozen little petri dishes all day.

And you still haven't answered the question: why do 20% of ECE workers quit their jobs *every 3 months*? Do mining and plumbing have 45% turnover rates? And they don't have an investment of four years education and $40,000+ in student debt motivating them to stay in it.

"In 2003, the average hourly wage for a childcare worker in Washington was $8.56 while the average hourly wage for a parking lot attendant was $9.71. The median wage for all non-agricultural workers in Washington was $15.71."

http://www.eoionline.org/early_learning/reports/ECELadderModelImprovingQuality-Jul04.pdf

But yes, people are queuing up because of the cushy work schedule. Except they're not.

Find me a teacher anywhere who doesn't teach boys because they don't really need it. Sorry, but that's bullshit.

You want to know why boys are falling behind? Look no further than what's plugged into the back of their TVs. Every guy I know is glued to the boob tube 90% of their waking hours.

It's not some vast feminine conspiracy to hold back the boys. It's a vast corporate conspiracy to create addicts of passive entertainment. If boys *need* more kinetic teaching why are they able to sit in front of WoW for 38 straight hours on nothing but hot pockets and mountain dew long after all the girls have gotten bored and moved on to something more productive?

[lumberjack_jeff]

122. You can poll the teachers here, if you still doubt it.

When told that boys are underrepresented in college the consensus answer among DU's teachers is:
a) good, because girls are more in need of the career opportunities college brings, and
b) it's the boys fault because they're a bunch of maladapted, psychopathic, lazy, directionless, undisciplined louts.

... but it's not the fault of education... and stereotyping girls is bad.

[Yupster]

129. It's interesting because when I taught public school for 10 years, we were shown statistics

of one group or another lagging educationally and then an expert was brought in to inservice us.

The answer was always the same.

The students of Group X are not stupid, lazy, uncooperative, etc.

It is our fault they are doing poorly because we as a system are not varying our instructional techniques in ways that will reach these kids who have different experiences, cultural upbringing than we have.

It is our job as education professionals to tailor our classrooms and instructional styles to best reach these kids in the ways the experts advised. Special staff and programs were set up to help us and monitor the group's progress.

Now all the sudden boys are the lagging group, and all the stuff I was told so many times is out the window.

Now all of the sudden it isn't the system's fault afterall. Now the boys are stupid and lazy and uncooperative so let's get another grant for the girls in engineering program.

[wickerwoman]

138. Not sure who you're arguing with.

For starters, nobody said anything remotely like this: "Now the boys are stupid and lazy and uncooperative so let's get another grant for the girls in engineering program."

I don't think boys are stupid and lazy. I think many of them are addicted to video games that exploit them and I think that society and peer pressure steer them away from interests with academic applications so they won't look like pussies.

My grandfather could recite poetry for hours. How do you think his peers would take it if I taught my (theoretical) son to do the same?

We should teach each child in the way that that child learns best. Nobody is arguing any differently.

But at the same time, teachers can't solve all the problems. If society tells boys that its effeminate to study and that the only things it's acceptable to like are sports, pop music, beer, porn stars and video games, then what are teachers supposed to do to combat that message effectively?

[PassingFair]

59. The most dangerous job is convenience or liquor store clerk.

The "shittiest" job is day care or nursing home staff.

Which of these jobs DON'T women do?

[snooper2]

66. we have a different concept of dangerous

[Scout]

70. maybe those men do those jobs because they are too stupid to know how

dangerous they are?

maybe those men do those jobs because they can't make it through college to earn a lot of money in some other career?

why don't you ask them?

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PassingFair]

73. Yes we do.

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. 93% of workplace fatalities are men

The total fatalities in retail is one third that of construction.

and only someone who has led a really sheltered life can truly believe that day care is the worst job.

[PassingFair]

75. You said "shitty".

Try working in a nursing home for a week, and
let me know what a rewarding job it is to take
care of incontinent adults.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. Try cleaning out a sewage digester. n/t

[PassingFair]

87. There are many, many, many more butt wipers than sewage cleaners.

Many, many, many, many more.

[wickerwoman]

83. Right back at you.

I've worked on farms. I've worked in factories. Subbing in a kindergarten was worse than shoveling pig shit by an order of magnitude.

Having you worked in day care or a nursing home?

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. What do you mean, "Right back at me"?

You haven't addressed the point at all. All of the dangerous professions are dominated by men... and the stat upthread is just workplace deaths. Men also dominate the industries in which their day-in-day-out exposure to stress and toxins shortens their lives.

If you want to have a pissing match about who had the worst jobs, you'll have to have it with someone else (despite the fact that I'd win). Talk to me when you've had to wear waders, a harness, ear protection and a gas mask (not a respirator, an actual gas mask) to do your job.

People go into education because they want the nonmonetary reward that they perceive from being teachers. If that weren't the case, salaries for teachers would increase, colleges would have to draw people out of the more glamorous lineman's school, and governments wouldn't be able to keep raising the educational bar required to be a teacher.

[wickerwoman]

89. I'm also not interested in pitting working class jobs against each other.

But you equally need to admit that people take dangerous jobs because they are willing to accept the risk. I'd honestly actually think about taking a dangerous job if I made $40/hr and then clocked out at 60. But I don't have the choice since I'd be laughed out of most mines. Whereas if you really wanted to be a preschool teacher, you have that choice.

People go into all of these jobs because they have limited options. But I would argue that women's choices are more limited, the jobs they can choose from pay worse and have higher standards for education and "thought control".

[Romulox]

95. "people take dangerous jobs because they are willing to accept the risk."

And people take low wage jobs because they are willing to accept the pay. :hi:

Neither your statement nor mine begins to tell the whole story.

[wickerwoman]

111. People take low wage jobs because the alternative is starvation.

Given that you have to do something to live, un- or semi-skilled people are then faced with an array of shitty options. But men in that position have a wider array of options (trades, manual labor) which still largely pay living wages while women have a smaller range of options which on average pay less when you account for how much education is also required for those jobs.

And men can take women's shitty jobs (hospice care, childcare) much more easily than women can take men's shitty jobs (mining, construction, etc.) And to suggest otherwise... that a 33 year old woman burned out on teaching preschool can retrain as an arc welder and expect to a.) find a job b.) make the same as a man in that job and c.) not be subject to constant harassment is disingenuous.

The question is why are women doing better in university and my answer remains, because they have to. Or do you agree that it's a conspiracy of castrating she-hyenas teaching elementary school that accounts for high numbers of female graduates?

[AngryAmish]

131. Your theory that women have to do better- any data to support that?

[wickerwoman]

135. Sure thing.

Median earnings in the last census by gender and level of education:

Males:
21 to 64 years $37,912
Not a high school graduate $23,915
High school graduate $31,628
Some college $37,681
Bachelor degree $51,176
Advanced degree $66,328

Females:

21 to 64 years $27,959
Not a high school graduate $16,954
High school graduate $22,363
Some college $27,199
Bachelor degree $36,267
Advanced degree $45,577

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/earnings/call1usfemale.html

Stay in school girls because as much as it sucks living on $24,000 a year, it *really* sucks living on $17,000 especially when you have kids.



http://www.incontext.indiana.edu/2009/mar-apr/article1.asp

And yes, some of this is accounted for by men choosing higher paying majors and more women choosing to stay home and raise kids, but the fact is that an 18 year old can't depend on getting and staying married. Shit happens. And when it does, it drives women into poverty if they haven't educated themselves. That's what mean when I say women *have* to succeed in school. They're staring down a career a McDonalds much more seriously than their male 18 year old counterpart.

Wages go down and stay down in "feminized" fields.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:gO0zutrqbasJ:www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2003/03/art2full.pdf+pay+gender+education&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjGeEDWmrGWpbcHmL35m8W3qqndxt2iWhC6u7bYKSCVEg1ajn45n06PjI5SmT22JkO6plBdNTMLJCKzaStC5eVG2PJ-Bi1URdDv8EIgJjngllpfFbKZ9hlxTK4xoOcBaX7ebumk&sig=AHIEtbQurvu383Sql5lGzoV_GozcHNe7Yg

Percent of female doctors: (most in lower paying specialties like obstetrics and pediatrics)
33%

Percent of women in science and engineering careers:
25%

Percent of tenured female university professors:
25%

Percent of female federal judges:
24%

Percent of women on Supreme Court:
22%

Percent of Fortune 500 companies with female CEOs:
2%

Percent of female presidents in US history:
0%

It's *45 YEARS* after second wave feminism and the sexual revolution. I don't think we should let the progress we have made (many of these stats were under 10% in the 60s) blind us to the fact that it's really fucking awful that women still represent a quarter or less of the most powerful and responsible jobs in our society. And I'm sorry, I can't look at those stats and see a "crisis" in the fact that more women are graduating from college these days. When women are 75% of scientists, engineers, professors and judges, 98% of CEOs of the largest companies and have held the presidency for 43 consecutive terms, then I think I can take claims of women taking over the world a little more seriously. Until then, some perspective anyone?

[Hello_Kitty]

60. Girls aren't allowed to be slackers.

I personally know several teenage and young adult males, the sons of friends of mine, who are allowed to sit around playing computer games all day. No job, no chores, no responsibilities of any kind. Not the case with most of the daughters.

And now that these pampered princes aren't keeping up with their sisters academically we are treated to cries that they are being treated unfairly.

[wickerwoman]

69. Nail on the head.

I'm 33. 95% of the guys I went to school with played 8-10 hours of video games a day even on school days. I recently helped my brother move along with six or seven of his friends and in their early thirties these guys still couldn't talk about *anything* except video games.

I played 1-2 hours + 1-2 hours of TV, but then I got bored and read a bit. I didn't study, but I had various interests (travel, languages, painting, reading) which had academic applications.

Any guy who expresses an interest in anything besides sports, listening to music, drinking or video games is called a pussy.

Don't blame women because society has defined everything outside of very narrow non-academic interests as effeminate.

If you want your son to succeed unplug the goddamn PS3 and put a book in his hands. And beat the shit out of all of his peers who give him a hard time.

[Hello_Kitty]

94. "unplug the goddamn PS3 and put a book in his hands" Bingo!

But, oh no, they can't do that! Precious Little Prince Snowflake has ADD dontchaknow! Poor widdle pookums just can't focus in school all day!

[Starry Messenger]

10. Mark Perry="experts"?

Mancession, cute term. Looks like his job is safe, why is he worried?

[Romulox]

11. How many of those degrees are from "Ross Medical College" and similar strip-mall type affairs?

I'd like to see numbers that exclude vocational "colleges" and U of Phoenix, e.g.

I truly wonder if women are dominating real education, or if most of this "dominance" is via registration from a late night commercial? :shrug:

[Viking12]

28. Anecdotal, but my 13 years of experience in "real" higher ed is consistent with the report

[Romulox]

30. OK. But if "Dental Assistant College" is being counted, why isn't "Heating and Cooling College"?

Same calibre of training involved. I wonder if some of this isn't simply an intersection of class bias and old-fashioned thinking?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

33. Ross Medical School is a...medical school that trains doctors to be licensed in the U.S.

Oh the horror!

Comparing it to University of Phoenix is pretty disingenuous.

[Romulox]

36. The one on late nite (sic) TV trains "medical assistants" in under a year...

http://www.rossmedicaleducation.com/

[SemiCharmedQuark]

37. Ah, my mistake. Different Ross.

I apologize.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

119. They do, its clear on any campus

[CBR]

12. In my graduate program there are about 25 of us, 4 are men.

It might be because of the field -- public policy -- but it does seem to be a trend across campus. There are large discipline disparities though -- more women in the humanities, education and social sciences. More men in engineering and natural science.

[ensho]

13. good

men have made a mess of the world

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. So let's make them stupider.

Yay.

[depakid]

32. The allusion was to a Michael Moore book

that apparently no one here remembers....

[Romulox]

17. Edit: post was moderated, point has been made.

:puke:

edit to make clear that I am being SARCASTIC!

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MellowDem]

46. So have women....

but don't let that stop you from getting off on your sexist spew and hatred.

[Ex Lurker]

110. with women in charge, it would still be a mess

perhaps a different kind of mess, but still a mess. The problem is with the human race. Let's not limit it to one gender or the other.

[Maru Kitteh]

18. Awesome. Now they can set about the task of ensuring we are paid less for it

and all will be well in the universe again.

[snot]

20. But GET THIS:

Re- a professional school I attended, per the school's own statistics, as of ca. 1993,

For the prior 10 years, some 40% of the entering class had been female;
For the prior 10 years, some 45% of the top 10% of graduating classes had been female;
BUT then AND NOW, only a TINY fraction of the partners at major firms in that profession are female.

In school, the grading was blind (papers are assigned a number, so profs don't know the gender, ethnicity etc. of the students they're grading).

Once they're out of school, nothing's blind.

Plus, the worst surrounding burdens/obstacles faced by most men are the BEST most women face: i.e.,

The BEST a woman can hope for is that either she is single and childless or is married to a spouse who carries his 50% of the load, so that the woman and has no burdens beyond her fair share and that the clients and others she deals with do not discriminate against women.

The WORST a man faces is that either he is single and childless or is married to a spouse who carries only 50% of the load, so that the man actually has to carry his fair share, and that the clients and others he deals with do not discriminate against women.

[Romulox]

21. Maybe being a partner in a big traditional law firm simply isn't worth it?

I think women would be more successful if they started more of their own firms. Just imo.

[ensho]

24. kick

nt

[AngryAmish]

27. To be honest, big law is unfair to most people entering it

I was too dim to get into a big law school...and too lazy to work crazy hours for more than a few years..so I started my own firm. I make more than a lot of these big law partners...and have plenty of time to drink beer.

Most people don't make partner and so feel adrift.

Starting a firm is a big risk - you essentially are betting your lifetime savings. On the whole, women are more risk averse (or see things more realistically then men).

But I agree with you.

[Romulox]

38. I think "big law" is stupid goal. Who needs it?

Not only is money not everything, it's not even close. One of the things that is so disillusioning about the law is the lack of integrity all the way around. The winks and the nudges. What the ethics boards say, and what they do. The ironclad principles of the law that miraculously give way in an election year. The unread briefs containing arguments honed to a razor's edge.

Makes more sense to file a bunch of No Fault cases and go home. :shrug:

[snot]

92. Again,

who said "law"?

In any case, sure, women could start their own firms, and so could men, and many of both did and do.

The point is, there's a glass ceiling, and in my opinion, that hurts everyone.

[Romulox]

93. It was fairly clear to what you referred. What's gained by playing coy?

"The point is, there's a glass ceiling, and in my opinion, that hurts everyone."

I haven't seen any evidence that bears this out. Not as to law. Women who put 80 + hours arguably have more opportunities in the legal field at this moment in time than do men (the President didn't seriously consider a non-woman candidate for the past two SCOTUS nominations, for example.)

I am not sympathetic to the "but I shouldn't have to work 80 hours to make partner!" argument.

[CBR]

22. I used to do filing in my undergrad's administrative offices.

One thing I filed was the professor contracts. The disparity between first year professor pay between men and women (with similar experience and fresh out of their doctoral programs) was shocking. Around $12,000 per nine month contract. One case I specifically remember was a female professor in the social sciences with a PhD from UVA vs. a male professor in the social sciences with a PhD from American U. had these disparities in their contracts. Both were great professors.

[snot]

91. I'd be interested to know the time-frame?

[Marr]

50. Just because they don't perform as well as you might expect in the professional

environment doesn't necessarily mean it's a matter of sexism. Maybe there's simply a wide gap between the skills one needs to *earn* a law degree and to *use* it. For instance, maybe a dogged eye for detail is a huge boon in the classroom, but on the actual job, an aggressive personality is more useful.

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm sure the environments must vary broadly from one firm to another, but still. I know in my own field, the personality traits needed to be a good student aren't necessarily the same traits needed to excel in the actual profession. The vocational skills, sure, but there are many other factors.

[snot]

90. Wait a sec --

who said "law"?

I agree with your point; but I do not believe it accounts for the vast discrepancy in this case. I.m.h.o., the drop-out rate among women had nothing to do with their being less aggressive or otherwise less qualified on the job, and everything to do with discrimination and burn-out from fighting it, on top of carrying bigger burdens at home and otherwise.

[kestrel91316]

23. Veterinary school classes are now 78% women. Until the Class of 1980,

the percentage of women was about 1%.

Unfortunately, pay for veterinarians lags behind the rate of inflation so badly, it's a wonder ANYONE wants to join the profession.

[Liberal_in_LA]

65. I hear that men are concentrated in the large animal care (horses and such). Had no

idea women were 78% of the vet schools. wow.

[bullwinkle428]

31. Rut-roh...bad news for Freepers!

"DAM WIMMINS AND THERE FANCY DEGREEZ!!"

:rofl:

[WCGreen]

47. You know the main reason...

The smart girls stopped helping the dumb guys...

For the most part, guys are slackers. But we work good under pressure. You never see images of women cramming for a test but there are always guys running around at the last minute wondering how the Midterm could be tomorrow...

I know, I know, stereotypes, but this post begs for it.

Really, I think the reason for this gender gap is simply that more women are heading to college than ever before.

[Marr]

48. It's hard to really appraise this without more data.

I'd want to know what fields these degrees are in, and why they're being pursued.

For instance, most of the people I know with high level degrees are educators. They went after the degrees to make more money in their incredibly underpaid field. If this were the standard, then the educational disparity isn't a sign of females having achieved some dominant position-- just the opposite, in fact.

[greencharlie]

49. judging by my son's own academic performance... I believe it. nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

67. One academic suggest eliminating boys 10th grade grades... boy's gpas

drop that year - eliminating the 10th grade from the calculation of high school GPA would help more qualify for college.

[CTyankee]

102. Yeah, if you don't like the rules, change the rules!

Of course, the PERFECT solution!

[UndertheOcean]

51. Well , whatever is Happening is not reaching Engineering ...

Never saw more than 10% in all the EE classes I attended. Then in Grad school it was ten times less.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

52. This happens roughly at the same time the RW starts pushing the "being educated is bad" meme.

I don't think that's a coincidence.

[lumberjack_jeff]

54. I think you're confusing cause and effect.

Boys grow up indoctrinated with the idea that education isn't meant for boys... unless you can throw a football.

Why would they change their views when they become voters?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. You'll notice I didn't imply which is the cause of which. Or if both have a common cause. -nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

57. Then I agree. n/t

[Matariki]

53. No wonder educating women has been such an issue thoughout history

and in Afghanistan.

[Scout]

71. when the playing field is level, we outplay them. they don't like that. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. Our culture, especially our pop culture, tells boys that reading, studying, and

learning are "gay," so they adopt an attitude of disdainful indifference to learning.

The girls look at the slacker boys in their class and think, "Oh-oh, I'd better get an education, because I sure won't be able to depend on those losers."

[CTyankee]

103. How many of us have learned THAT lesson!

Depressing, but true...

[rox63]

113. Despite this, women still earn less than men doing the same jobs n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

120. Actually that is not nearly as true as some people think

Most of the stats on pay differential take all women vice all men and do not account for career and personal choices.

[ecstatic]

123. when I was growing up, I felt like the important message that was pushed on me from all corners was:

Get a good education and go to college so that you can take care of yourself and not have to depend on a man. I'm not sure what message my male counterparts were getting. Maybe everyone just forgot to tell the boys the same thing.

[eridani]

125. This is why we should all be in favor of affirmative action

Moving toward a more equal gender balance is certainly a worthwhile AA goal.

[Yupster]

130. Agree in theory, but

just not for boys.

Because they're stupid and lazy.

[eridani]

137. Not really. But they do tend to have double standards

Affirmative action for a more balanced collegiate sex ratio = good.
Affirmative action for women and minorities in other areas = bad.

[WinkyDink]

136. Because males are taking the Technical college route, to go straight to computer $$, skip the LArts