Seriously, is softball a sport that attracts mostly lesbians?

[TheDebbieDee]

This is something they have mentioned on Mornin' Joe with regard to photos of Justice Candidate Elena Kagan holding a batter's stance.

They were laughing when it was said, but now I wonder, are they serious? It reminds me of the time that I found out that there were signals that men used in public bathrooms to make sexual advances.

ETA: I only ask because I always seem to be one, or several, steps behind everybody else when it comes to social knowledge.

[Dorian Gray]

1. No....

I don't think so. I played throughout high school and I didn't know any lesbians on the team. Not that people didn't come out later, but that's a ridiculous stereotype.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

5. thought it was tennis!

[Rebubula]

6. No...

...Field Hockey.

[Ohio Metal]

27. No...

...Ice Hockey

[FreeJG]

141. Yes it is, my friend is gay and she plays softball and says all the gays at hospital play

[The Straight Story]

2. Women in sports instead of the kitchen/bedroom = lesbian to some

:)

[malaise]

10. Ding ding

We have a winner.

[a la izquierda]

40. Yup...

I was always accused of being a "dyke" in high school because I was a swimmer and a runner.
Idiots.

[BolivarianHero]

114. That's funny...

In Canada, women who play competitive sports tend to be held in high esteem by both men and women. Sad when that bothers the average American centre-right commentator more than it would bother our nutters like Stephen Harper and Stockwell Day.

[a la izquierda]

139. I think it bothers men...

because it threatens their antiquated notions of women.
It bothered the boys in my school because I was faster than most of them and could kick the living crap out of a lot of them, too.

Incidentally, my mom is gay, so the "dyke" slur really, really aggravated me. She was also a tremendous athlete, but the two don't go hand in hand in my book.

[BlueJazz]

142. It bothers non-thinking Men. Most of the guys I know are fairly liberal in their thinking.

:)

[a la izquierda]

144. That's what I meant...

not all men.
I mountain bike several times a week with a bunch of guys and they think it's great.

[Dappleganger]

50. Definitely

It's a good thing my husband preferred jocks, LOL!

[WeDidIt]

58. Hammer. Nail. Head. n/t

[depakid]

3. "something they have mentioned on Mornin' Joe"

Corporate media once again spreading lies- pretty soon you'll have "conservative" parents keeping their kids from playing so that teh gay won't get them.

[Skidmore]

4. Actually, Buchanan informed us that two men sunbathing on a beach together is gay.

He's "known that for a long time."

[Wizard777]

7. Nah, you're just saying that because both teams usually look like Rosie O'Donnell clones.

:shrug: WHAT?

[EFerrari]

8. Bluebear called it last night.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8316640

[KharmaTrain]

17. Some Of Us Have Been Expecting This Since Her Name Was Announced

The dogwhsitles of hate radio were out on this early and often...they can't go after Kagan's background (even though they're giving it a lame attempt) and this is their "kitchen sink"...label her as "teh gay" and let the corporate media run wild with it...and looks like that's starting to happen.

Sadly this administration is trying to rush out the "I went out on a date with her" types...try to "beat down" this meme rather than either ignore it or, if Ms. Kagan is either gay or bi, so "so what". It's playing into the hands of those who want a distraction...hoping to press the GOOP homophobic wedge button to try to make this the issue about her qualifications. Shameful.

[DevonRex]

106. Honestly, that was my first thought - wondering when the softball

picture would show up. And it didn't take long, did it? What I'd like to know is why ANY DUer would take what the WSJ said at face value when they denied their wink and nod to the RWers.

[EFerrari]

132. It's disgusting but what isn't in our politics any more.

The sense I get is that she will be confirmed because no one really has an appetite for a big fight right now. This nomination might be a lot easier than Sonia's was.

[quaker bill]

9. I know two who play

who also do triathalons, and mountain biking. But I also know many more who don't.

[MichellesBFF]

11. I thought it was golf?

[pintobean]

12. Beer leagues = male lesbians n/t

[Nye Bevan]

13. I find it amazing, but there are quite a few DUers

who cannot look at a picture of a woman playing softball without thinking of lesbianism.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8316640

Not only that, they are absolutely incredulous that the rest of us cannot make this association.

The most charitable explanation is that these folks are from an older generation who grew up when women playing sports was uncommon, and they still make the "women's sports" = "mannish" = "lesbian" association.

[EFerrari]

14. LOL. You're having a really hard time with this, aren't you?

[Nye Bevan]

15. I'm genuinely fascinated by the "sports = lesbian" brigade here.

I thought Title IX was supposed to put an end to that kind of thing.

[Gormy Cuss]

131. Title IX had nothing to do with debunking "sports=lesbian."

Really.
The "sports=lesbian" brigade as you dubbed it is still far too common with right wingers.

[EFerrari]

133. Once you recognize bigoted code, you can't not see or hear it.

And you seem to be confusing recognizing a stereotype with endorsing it.

[Demit]

16. I don't know how old you think is old, but I'm 57 and women playing sports was not uncommon

when I was a pre-teen thru to my teens (in the sixties). I started playing softball when I was 8. I started playing basketball when I was 11, and played through high school. Two of my teammates got basketball scholarships in 1969. Nobody made lesbian associations, not our dads or our moms or our boyfriends. We were called tomboys maybe, but nobody automatically associated being athletic with being gay. Just how old are you?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Demit]

45. The poster who posted that remark also says that playing softball is a secret lesbian pastime.

She has a very skewed perspective, if she's being serious. She doesn't seem to be able to grasp the concept that there are women who enjoy playing sports into adulthood. When you spend your youth honing your skills in a team sport, why abandon playing something you became good at? She seems to think only gay women have that desire. She seems, from her comments, to be embracing the stereotype. She's hopelessly, and very stupidly, solipsistic. In her own little world.

Maybe the ppl who claim that sports-to-lesbianism is a long-time association grew up in small-town environments? I grew up in a big city, where we all gravitated to playgrounds and 'the Rec'(Recreation Center) for youth activities.


The times I got called a 'lesbo' was by a guy trying to pick me up but getting shot down. It had nothing to do with sports, just his wounded ego. But that's a whole other topic :)

[hobbit709]

19. Back in the 70's our crisis center had a coed softball team.

The Horny Wombats" Some members of the team were gay/lesbian, some were not. Didn't make any difference to the rest of us.

[mediaman007]

20. College intramural softball team (1968): Fruits of the Loom!

Just a bunch of guys that needed a unique name for the league.

[eShirl]

22. There's a difference between calling WSJ on playing to a stereotype, and saying the stereotype is

true.

[QC]

29. Thank you. That very simple distinction seems to be too much

for some people here to wrap their minds around.

This is what dog whistle politics looks like.

[fishwax]

81. no kidding!

why is that so difficult for some to wrap their minds around?

[eShirl]

88. They do seem intelligent enough to know exactly what they are doing.

[myrna minx]

99. Thank you. n/t

[seabeyond]

25. i was in highly competitve swimming for two decades in 60's and 70's

girls were all over in sports

never pegged as lesbian. didnt know any lesbian.

wasnt/not even a concept for me sports = lesbian

[Goblinmonger]

102. I bet you knew some lesbians.

You just didn't know they were lesbians.

[seabeyond]

117. ya know. lol. never really paid attention to that shit, still dont.

people are what they are

[Bunny]

26. I find it amazing that you haven't heard of this association, and that when people tell

you that it exists, you remain incredulous. It's like you've never heard of it, so it can't possibly be true.

I'm 52, around the same age as Kagan. I played softball all through high school, both on the school team and in the local women's league. Back in those days, there were always people who snickered at the women's softball team because they believed that most of them were lesbians. In fact, many of them actually were lesbians. But this suspicion and amusement were confined to the ladies playing softball - women who swam, played tennis or volleyball, ran track and etc. weren't assumed to be lesbians. So there was something specific to softball that drew out this assumption. I don't know what that was, but it was definitely there.

To add to your incredulity, around these parts it's also an assumption that lesbians drive Subarus. I have no idea if that's common anywhere else, but it is here. And for the record, I think that one's absolutely ludicrous. But if the WSJ ran a picture of Kagan getting into a Subaru, to me that could possibly be a coded signal: hey look, she's a lesbian! The softball picture, whether you want to accept this or not, is a coded signal, too.

[hobbit709]

28. Most of the lesbians I know drive toyotas.

One friend drives a Ford pickup. Never heard that Subaru one.

[Bunny]

30. It's a pretty stupid one, isn't it?

I know a lot of women who drive Subarus who are not lesbians, and the lesbians that I do know drive other vehicles. People get some pretty weird ideas, alright.

[seabeyond]

32. damn, i almost bought a subaru too. lol. settle for a volvo at 16. is that

about the same.

i am lmao now. lol

[cemaphonic]

136. The lesbian couple that I know best do in fact drive a Subaru

But they are new parents, and here in Seattle, you aren't allowed to bring a baby back from the hospital until you buy an Outback or Forester.

OTOH, my old neighbors drove Hondas.

[Rhythm]

43. Often, it's specified to Subaru Outbacks...

Dunno why... :shrug:

[hobbit709]

44. The only people I know that drive Outbacks are straight males.

[Rhythm]

59. It doesn't work here in WV either...

Every third car on the road is a Subaru.

The other two are some variety of pick-up truck.

[seabeyond]

61. uh oh.... better not tell the guys, lol lol lol. nt

[krispos42]

107. My mom's a lesbian?

That'll be a big surprise to her and my father. :-)

[seabeyond]

31. i guess i was too busy working out and competing to knwo i was gay....

ah well.

but i gotta tell you, all those guys in speedos and weekend meets with few adults didnt lead to gay.

[Nye Bevan]

35. Oh, the Lesbians-Subarus thing. That's completely different. *Everyone* has heard of *that* one.

:eyes:

[Bunny]

39. Okay, eye roll or whatever. But if you're truly not interested in learning,

you should put that in your sig line or something. It would keep us from wasting time trying to help you to understand the issue.

[Demit]

46. Around my way, if you wore red on Thursdays that meant you were a whore.

This was in my circle of 11 year olds.

Edited to add: I think it was the 12-year-old boys who started that one.

[QC]

51. And the average consumer of Murdoch media has a mental age of 11.

So while you might look at the picture and think, "Gee, how nice that she likes to play softball with her friends," they will look at the same picture and think, "That proves it! She's a lez-bean, just like Rush said!"

It's classic dog whistle politics.

[Demit]

71. I played in company softball games when I worked in advertising.

I even had a picture taken of me at bat that I still have. I was 30. (Terrible stance, too wide.) I was smiling too. Laughing, in fact, b/c one, I knew I stank at softball (no hit, no field, no speed), and two, IT WAS A FRIENDLY GAME WITH PEOPLE AT WORK. One rule was you had to take your beer out to your position on the field. The games always officially ended in a tie.

Does anybody know what kind of game this was that Kagan was playing in that is being played up as so fraught with meaning? Jesus, I'm glad I didn't run for anything when I look at that picture of me. I mean, I was wearing a non-girly TEE SHIRT & JEANS. I think I even had SNEAKERS on instead of stylish pumps. This country truly is crazy.

[Bunny]

52. When I was that age, the big thing was "Rachel's".

This was the name of the local bordello, allegedly. If you were a girl named Rachel, you were in for a world of teasing and rude comments.

[eeyore]

135. Subarus - very common in Portland, OR.

From a Portland perspective, if she were driving a Subaru Outback filled with dogs to a softball game, I know that most people would assume and not care that she were a lesbian. Cracks me up!

That said, who the hell cares if she is or isn't? Certainly none of my business, and I don't see how it's the business of anyone else at all. Hell, I've see situations where a woman dated men for decades until they met a woman who the fell madly in love with, having never been attracted to a woman before.

I think it's hard for some to conceive how a middle-aged, single, female, east coast, Ivy League, liberal-ish law professor could not be a lesbian. Well of course she is, just look at all of the other "evidence"!

Whatever...

[muffin1]

41. OMG

It's not 'us DUers' who believe sports = lesbian. We are pointing out the dog-whistle used by the right-wing. There are enough of us on this thread explaining it to you and others.

Take you head out of the sand, and travel over to FR if you don't believe us.

[QC]

42. A lot of people around here are very heavily invested in the idea

that there is no such thing as homophobia and that the LGBT people here who try to discuss that issue are therefore just whiners who did not get their, well, you know, it's an impractical present with four legs and a mane that petulant little girls are believed to demand all the time, and no, there's nothing homophobic about comparing gay people to spoiled little girls and well some things are supposed to be private anyway and why does it matter and why do you people talk about this stuff all the time anyway.

[seabeyond]

62. sexism and homophobia... hand in hand. =. really fucked up men in their own

sexual identity, lol

you are right. and the niftiest i have seen on the sexist threads is a gay guy will be the one to unequivocally decry sexism.... even faster than a lot of women.

a valuable realization for me.

[muffin1]

63. Are you series?

Are you saying Duers are homophobic? It couldn't be true!!11!! We are all liberals here. They've told you over and over to JUST BE PATIENT!1! Right after both wars are over, and everyone has access to health care, and everyone has a job, and the climate problem is fixed, and Wall Street is fixed, and when there are no pending elections, and when the lion lays down with the lamb.

PATIENCE, Prudence!

[fishwax]

94. .

:thumbsup:

[DevonRex]

105. Exactly. And it wouldn't have been used if she were married and

extremely pretty for her age and if she hadn't taken a pro-GLBT stance at Harvard regarding military recruitment.

As it is, she's single, she looks like an average 50ish woman, and DID take that pro-GLBT stance. Therefore, the softball picture. Thankfully most of us here understand the intent.

[Tailormyst]

80. You either completely misunderstood that thread or you are purposely playing ignorant.

[fishwax]

84. that's an absolutely ridiculous way to read that thread

A few things:

Just because a person is aware of a stereotype, and points out the fact that a right-wing newspaper appears to be playing into such a stereotype to discredit a democratic nominee to the supreme court, doesn't mean that said person believes that stereotype themselves.

Just because you haven't heard of a certain stereotype, that doesn't mean that the people who have are simply making it up (or old).

The fact that there are plenty of straight softball players doesn't negate the fact that there is a stereotype about softball players and lesbians. It just means it's a stupid stereotype.

The fact that a stereotype is stupid doesn't mean that the stereotype doesn't exist or can't be used as a dog whistle.

"Not only that, they are absolutely incredulous that the rest of us cannot make this association."

"cannot make this association" and "refuse to acknowledge the possibility that such a stereotype exists just because they (claim to) have never heard it before" are two different things.

[DevonRex]

100. Nye, homophobes are the ones who use it as an allusion to being gay.

Just because we understand what they're doing does not mean that WE share their sentiments. The softball picture would NOT have been used if Kagan were pretty, married, and had not tried to prevent military recruitment at Harvard based on the fact that the military discriminates against GLBTs.

The reality is that she is a 50-year-old single woman who DID take the stance that the military discriminates against GLBTs. Since her nomination Focus on the Family and the American Family Association have come out against her, saying that homosexuals are not qualified to be on the Supreme Court.

[Goblinmonger]

101. Most of the people aren't saying that THEY think that

but saying that there is that stereotype in our culture and it is not limited to a couple people. It is fairly widespread.

Don't shoot the messenger and all.

[Renew Deal]

110. My best guess is it's a generational thing

I'm younger than most people here and I never heard of the association until yesterday. Most softball players are girls as far as I know, especially at the highest levels (college & Olympics). The only male softball players I can think of are beer leaguers. Like I said, I think it's generational.

[SwampG8r]

120. and quite a few of us who watch the college softball on the TV and

go ummm mmmmm mmmm
they have some great uniforms
my personal favorite is vollyball
best shorts eveh

[JTFrog]

21. Ignorance is really no excuse for posting this shit.

Playing softball bears no resemblance to secret foot tapping codes in a public restroom.

It's a fucking sport. There is no social knowledge or special codes involved in deciphering the sexual orientation of the athletes involved.

And why would one even want to or care?

[WhiteTara]

23. my parents had 5 girl children and they

called us my dad's soft ball team.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. She is a lesbian because she plays softball?

That was said on a national broadcast 'noise' show? Are you f'ing kidding me? Is that where we are as a society? And you wonder if they are serious? Seriously? You are seriously entertaining the thought that 'All women who play softball are lesbians'?

But I digress. Suppose Kagan is a lesbian. So the fuck what?

[Iggo]

33. Sports attracts jocks.

That's it.

[Dappleganger]

55. Yep.

[lunatica]

34. Why does it matter what any athlete's sexual orientation is?

Or any judge, or teacher, or lawyer or friend or relative? I think one's sexual orientation has nothing to do with that person's character or interests or education or abilities to do their job. Nothing. Judging people by what sex or sexual preference they have as long as it isn't pedophilia is like trying to judge people based on the color of their eyes. It's stupid and a waste of time.

Consider yourself lucky that you don't pick up on those social 'values' of judging people's sexual preferences by what sport they like.

[QC]

38. It most assuredly matters to the kind of right wing asshole who reads the Wall Street Journal

and watches Fox "News."

That's the point here.

Has no one on this site ever heard the phrase "whispering campaign"?

[lunatica]

48. I was asking about why the OP thinks it might matter

I know the idiocracy care. The OP is asking as if the OP were somehow missing something. In my opinion if you don't instantly conjure up every stereotype in the book I think you're a damned decent person.

[QC]

57. Oh, I agree. It would be a better world if we took people as they are.

It's just hard to believe that so many political junkies on a site like this one don't know how dog whistling works.

Do they honestly think that right wing politicians who talk about "crime in the inner city" are expressing a genuine concern over violence?

[old mark]

36. I used to watch women's fast pitch softball - unbelievable game, great competition,

super pitching...no money involved - they played for free in local city park lots, with corporate sponsors...(One team was the "Ray-Bestos Brake-ettes" - they were incredible!)
If you really like baseball, catch some of these games and you will be hooked. Much better than the "big leagues" and none of the bullshit.

Lesbians or not I have no idea and don't give a shit - GREAT athletes and ballplayers, absolutely. Baseball lovers baseball.

mark

[Dappleganger]

56. When fastpitch became popular...

most of us who were very serious about softball were pretty damn happy. Still enjoy playing regular softball, locally. It's hard to get out of your system!

[old mark]

95. I was lucky to live near the park where several area teams played

and I watched for several years. I lost most of my interest in "pro" baseball because I saw how the game was INTENDED to be played, and I saw the love of the game in those players.

I recommend that any baseball fan who has not seen these games make it a point to attend one - BUT...if you see one, you may want MORE.....

mark

[tammywammy]

37. I never thought softball = lesbian either

:shrug:

[Jennicut]

47. Total stereotype, don't you think?

[QC]

53. And the right wing loves to play to stereotypes, don't they,

especially the ones based on hate and fear?

[Jennicut]

68. Exactly. I mean, she liked to play softball. I see that as she liked sports.

I love sports too. I watch more baseball then my husband does. This has nothing to do with someone's orientation. It is simply a stereotype the right throws out to make assumptions and to make it a "bad" thing. If a woman likes sports, she may be gay or may not be gay.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

66. Yes, though not an entirely untrue stereotype

I am reminded of Wanda Sykes saying that Obama's election allows here to eat watermelon in public.

There is nothing wrong with eating watermelon.

And there is nothing wrong with lesbians being over-represented in sports.

They are. There is nothing sinister in that.

Hetero women outnumber lesbians by a VAST margin so of course most female athletes are straight. But one would have to be clueless to think that lesbians are not numerically "over-represented" in women's athletics.

There is nothing liberal or progressive or tolerant or evolved in saying that everyone is equally represented everywhere.

The implication that orientation is irrelevant is a slur. It is a polite slur, a slur with the best intentions, but it is a slur.

It is not progressive to pretend that men's figure skating is not a disproportionately gay sport. Overlooking the obvious is implies that one is being delicate or polite, like over-looking a disability.

Softball is not a "lesbian sport" but a lesbian is more likely to play softball. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Denying it implies that there is something wrong with it.

Many replies in this thread are ostentatiously "orientation-blind" as if it would be wrong to be otherwise.

But it isn't wrong. It would be wrong to meet a married female couple and say, "I guess you two play a lot of softball." But to remain studiously agnostic is not a benefit. Gay should not be something to overlook, with the implication that one is bending over backward to not see gay people as they are.

When I was growing up you could trip up self-satisfied white liberals easily on questions like, "Do black people like Motown more than white people do?" The "right" liberal answer at the time was that black people had no culture or history... that they were white people who had, through some misfortune, turned brown. And it would be indelicate to note that.

So, to the cluelessly color-blind 1960s liberal, it would be borderline racist to acknowledge even the most obvious and pedestrian observations about such things. Motown was very popular with white people, of course, but it was even more popular among black people. Duh.

Acceptance is not a philosophical stance of blindness. It is acceptance.

Yes, there are a lot of gay women in women's sports. And there really are a lot of gay choreographers and fashion designers.

And it is okay to acknowledge that.

[Jennicut]

72. I do agree with your point but they were mocking Kagan about it

and looking at it as a negative stereotype rather then acknowledging differences or what people naturally gravitated toward. That bothered me.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

104. I agree. The WSJ thought they were being evil

They doubtless had a big laugh about it.

It was intended to be a slur.

I agree with all of that.

[DevonRex]

109. It's absolutely a stereotype. It was used because she's single

at 50-something years old, she's an average looking woman, and she took a pro-GLBT stance at Harvard over the military being discriminatory towards gays. Not only that, but it's a wink and a nod to the fundie groups who just said she's not qualified to sit on the court because they believe she's a lesbian.

[Dappleganger]

49. I played softball from 4th through 12th grade.

Competitive, private school fastpitch softball. My positions were catcher and shortstop (mostly catcher, have the dents in my shins to show for it still, LOL).

Honestly, probably 1 out of 8 women who were either on my team or we played against were lesbian. Of course in my day most weren't 'out' as often, but in our league the same girls played against each other in most sports over the years and we knew. Some of my friends on other teams were 'out', most weren't. After graduation when girls would come 'out' it never surprised me. Also, I was hit on quite often because of being such a tomboy, but laughed it off. These girls were my friends, we played together as little kids and went to sports camps together in the city so we KNEW each other.

Softball and basketball girls who excelled did tend to have similar, athletic body types so that's probably why so many people assumed we were gay unless someone looked overtly feminine or was boy-crazy (and I was neither). None of us cared about anything but having fun and beating the pants off the other team.

If the photo had been of Kagan playing basketball it would've been just as stereotypically...volleyball, not so much.

[Odin2005]

54. I never would have even fathomed the association before this WSJ pic came up.

My youth must obviously be showing .

[WeDidIt]

60. Stereotype. Some similar stereotypes are women in the following professions

Fire fighter
Police officer
Soldier
Sailor
Truck Driver

It's the same ole same ole. If a woman is good at something that was considered a "macho" profession, she must be lesbian.

Quite frankly, it's offensive and Scarborough should be fired for his bigotry.

[Nye Bevan]

65. When DUers jump up in purple-faced outrage and scream "LESBIAN STEREOTYPE"

the second they see a picture of a woman playing softball, I don't think that really contributes to the cause of equal rights for women and girls who want to play sports.

[seabeyond]

67. or you can be clever enough to recognize the homophobia and sexism that groups face

instead of pretending it doesnt exist.

head in the ground doesnt contribute to the cause either. it just perpetuates.

but then to hyperbole it with purple faces, you agenda is pretty clear

[muffin1]

74. Well,

purple outrage matches pink pony poutrage so well! Everyone knows that. :eyes:

[QC]

77. Not everyone can be clever. n/t

[Jennicut]

69. It is a stereotype though. Some women who play or enjoy

watching sports are lesbians and some are not. Just like with every single thing in life. One does not necessarily equal the other. That makes it a stereotype. My family is very Italian. Were my relatives all associated with the mob? Same thing.

[muffin1]

73. And what is your reaction

when Hannity calls Obama a 'thug'? Or says 'Chicago-style politics'? Or Obama isn't 'one of us'? We all know what the fuck the RW is doing. We start threads about it all the time, and bemoan what racists they are - and rightly so. But as usual on DU, gays are just to0 whiny and loud. And perceive homophobia, WHEN IT DOESN'T EXIST. What the fuck ever.

Do you really not think the WSJ is trying to appeal to homophobes with that picture?

[Nye Bevan]

76. So should we get outraged when anyone prints a picture of a woman playing sports?

Or is it only certain sports? Soccer? Basketball? Tennis?

Or should we only get outraged when a RW publication prints a picture of a woman playing sports?

Or does this only apply to women with short hair?

I'm just trying to get up to speed with all of these new rules.

[seabeyond]

78. we should speak out when an obvious ploy to feed homophobia is committed by our media

we should NOT keep our mouth shut and pretend it isnt what it is.

your use of descriptive words is exactly the bullshit i am talking. and without "outrage" i think it is important to continually call you on your use of these words to paint a "hysterical" falsety in what people are saying about the media and the picture.

one can actually discuss it without the hyperbole.

[Nye Bevan]

82. But how "obvious" a ploy was it, really? DUers seem to be divided roughly 50-50

on whether it was (1) a great picture of a woman enjoying playing softball, or (2) a disgusting homophobic slur. So if it is really so "obvious" how come so many DUers did not pick up on it? I guess your outrage antennae are more sensitive than mine.

[seabeyond]

89. your are clueless to the number that think and dont think. what an absurd post

yet still you expect a response

[Nye Bevan]

90. Based on their responses in the threads the divide is roughly 50-50

I'm talking about the many responses from DUers other than me along the lines of:


"It clearly is an allusion to her being gay.

I clearly don't get it?????


People equate softball to lesbians? Really??

Who knew?

Yeah, too much...I thought it was rather a nice picture in fact

The financial press often employs a degree of whimsy in such things, on the assumption that their readers already know perfectly well who she is and expect something more interesting than the standard wire-service biography.


The gay folks are not perpetuating the stereotype, the people like you who think softball playing is a stereotype are.


Is playing softball some secret lesbian past-time?

I'm not up on my pop culture.


and there are many, many more like this. So if the "obvious homophobic slur" was really that "obvious", how come so many DUers didn't pick up on it?

[fishwax]

98. the question isn't how come so many DUers didn't pick up on it

the question is why do some DUers insist that just because they haven't heard the stereotype before it must not really exist, and so the WSJ couldn't possibly have been playing into it.

[eShirl]

85. So we should be willfully obtuse when they play their cute little games?

After all, they never SAID she was ______ (fill in the blank with whatever the insinuation du jour is)

[fishwax]

86. yes, that's exactly what people are saying. We should get outrage at any picture of sporting women

Because this was the same as *any* picture at *any* time in *any* context by *any* right-wing newspaper. :eyes:

[muffin1]

91. You can get outraged at whatever you like.

I am outraged that the WSJ has to go back 17 years to find a picture suitable to print. Gay people and their supporters know exactly what they are trying to achieve.

Believe what you want. I'm done.

[Nye Bevan]

96. Another poster in the other thread put it well

The WSJ has already used several 'standard' portraits of her in previous coverage. It's a fair bet that anyone who reads it already knows what she looks like. What would be your suggestion for a distinctive photo?

She's widely photographed now, as one of the people in that story observes, but pretty much everyone seems to be taking the same picture...boring. Perhaps they wanted some angle other than 'former Harvard Dean', and cameras aren't allowed into the Supreme Court. So please, go nuts with your photo selection and show me one of the many pictures they could have printed instead.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8316640&mesg_id=8317302

[WeDidIt]

93. No

We should get outraged when Joe Scarborough shows a picture of a woman playing sports and says the shit he said on his show.

[DevonRex]

111. This has been explained to you over and over again. You don't WANT to understand.

That much is clear.

[seabeyond]

116. exactly. birther mentality. nt

[QC]

140. It's called "willfully obtuse."

That's the only possible explanation.

[eShirl]

87. Odd that pointing out what is obvious to many of is, you perceive as "jump(ing) up in purple-faced

outrage and scream(ing)." What's the deal?

[Bluebear]

97. Some dumbass said THAT?

Thank goodness for the ignore list lol!

[DevonRex]

115. It IS odd, isn't it? I just checked the mirror and my face isn't purple

but I am outraged - even though I expected this kind of dogwhistle.

[WeDidIt]

92. What DUer did that, pray tell?

Joe Scarborough did that, but I haven't really seen a DUer do that.

[DevonRex]

112. You damn well better believe we're outraged. The fact that you're

NOT outraged (after it's been explained to you over and over again) says much about you.

[Orsino]

64. They are deadly serious.

They don't have to "accuse" Kagan of being lesbian to enjoy stirring up homophobia as a means to oppose the Obama Administration. Innuendo works quite well on American TV viewers.

[mstinamotorcity]

70. No

its just the one that they can use against the Supreme Court Justice candidate. If we question her sexuality then somehow the homophobia that is still ever present in some will rise up and say she is unqualified for the position.Just some more bulls--t for us to sift through.

[CBR]

75. I do think that photo was a dog whistle.

Even though the stereotype is a lie (as are many stereotypes). I was the proud starting second baseman for my high school softball team. Not one of my teammates is a lesbian today. Although a good friend of mine who played softball (and volleyball) at the rival high school is a lesbian.

Despite this, that photo was printed for the purpose of riling up that stereotype as it is one in the discourse and completely inappropriate.

[ShortnFiery]

79. Seriously, why is this BUNK still a viable thread?

:shrug:

[cwydro]

83. I'm a gay woman

and I totally suck at softball.

[tinymontgomery]

103. So their calling all those high school girls lesbians?

I guess the rightwing parents don't care that their leaders call their kids names and label them with a name they hate.

[Marr]

108. Huh?

I've honestly never heard anything like that.

[Nye Bevan]

121. I hadn't either. But the reaction from DUers when I said that has ben quite vehement.

I've been told that it is "amazing" that I have never heard of this association. That I "damn well" should be OUTRAGED.

Oh, and that if my softball-playing daughters are still playing after age 20, I am supposed to ask them if they are lesbians:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8316640&mesg_id=8318240

[Marr]

124. lol...

Who knew softball was such a loaded topic?

[tammywammy]

138. Chalk it up to Olive Garden and cornflake chicken. n/t

[Scout]

113. No. n/t

[liberal_at_heart]

118. It amazes me how deep the undertone of disrespect towards women in this country goes

[geardaddy]

119. No, it attracts beer-bellied athelete wannabes

:hide:

[truebrit71]

122. Hey!!! I resemble that remark...and I have NO problem whatsoever with lesbians...

....:evilgrin:

[geardaddy]

125. lol

Are you in a softball beer league?

[bridgit]

123. Well, it isn't just softball right? Isn't it basketball too?

Buh'sides, Morn'n Mika Joe is just pissed cause they wouldn't let Ann Coulter QB for Pop Warner even if she does act like the bitchiest little boy from CT


edit: d

[The Damned]

126. News to me!

[liberal_at_heart]

127. Something else that bothers me is the fact that all sports that are dominated by men

have half naked women selling beer or holding up signs to tell us what round it is. I don't take my son or daughter to any sporting events because I know they will be exposed to the sexist attitude that is all too pervasive in our sporting community. We keep moving backwards in this country. It's really sad.

[SwampG8r]

128. wow ...i mean...wow

my wife played softball in high school and for her hospital after nursing school
she was a catcher too
pretty good
who woulda thunk it after 33 years i find out shes a lesbian

luuuuuuuucy !!! you got a lot o splainin to do

[guitar man]

129. No

But it does attract Sunday morning "news" program hosts :silly:

[MrScorpio]

130. I used to have a girlfriend who could whack a softball like it was nobody's business

Trust me, she was no lesbian.

[niceypoo]

134. Ironically, the last game of softball I played....

...was against a team of lesbians. It was in a park somewhere in Hollywood back in the early 80s. They challenged myself and some friends, all males, to a friendly game and they kicked our ass good. It was great fun.

[MellowDem]

137. I understand the steryotype...

I had a lesbian co-worker who would usually assume a woman was a lesbian if they were playing college or professional athletics. Anything before that age group was a mixed bag of girls, considering many play at a younger age because their parents encourage them to, rather than from personal choice.. A step-sister of mine played on a college soccer team, and she did say that she was in fact the only straight girl on the whole squad, which I'm not sure I still believe, but I guess "bisexual" is thrown in as well.

All four of the girls I knew from my college's girl rugby team were either lesbians or bisexual. Of course, this is how steryotypes begin and are reinforced. I can understand why lesbians might be drawn to such activities to be with the like-minded. A lot of people, conciously or unconciously, act in ways that they try to fit into certain steryotypes set by society, because it is an easy identity to have, and a lot of people's anxiety about life is not having a strong sense of identity. Also, people like to join groups that they think they will fit into, and they usually determine which "groups" fit them by the steryotypes associated with such groups.

I will also say that, especially in the college years, there does exist a significant population of LUGs (Lesbian Until Graduation). The fact is that society, especially college male society, encourages and is attracted to rather fantastical ideas of lesbian sexual activity. Hence so many girls saying they are bisexual in college. Not that there aren't real bisexuals, but some equate experimentation with an actual attraction to both men and women. Girls are encouraged to "experiment" and generally celebrated by male peers for doing so. If women viewed male on male action the same way, and society encouraged it, I guarantee there would be a lot more GUGs and straight guys "experimenting".

Of course, unless there are solid statistics to back it up, it is all just speculation. But I do believe that lesbians may be drawn to sports as a sort of "safe place" to be, an accepted environment that may well have many other lesbians around as well. And there's nothing wrong with that. Until the speculation can be proven, it's all just steryotypes. But if the steryotype turns out to be true, it would be understandable.

[AnArmyVeteran]

143. I played a lot of coed softball leagues and dated 4 teammates, NOT ONE was a lesbian...

Because they played ball they were in good shape, and I can tell you without reservation, that they were definitely NOT lesbians. They loved men, at least me that is :)