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Rachel taking on Glenn Greenwald! She's calling him on some great points!

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 08:09 PM
Original message
Rachel taking on Glenn Greenwald! She's calling him on some great points!
Edited on Mon May-10-10 08:14 PM by berni_mccoy
This is must see t.v.

Just countered his main point that there is not enough info to judge her "liberalness" by putting forward a paper she had written criticizing Bush's expansion of Presidential Power.

His response was, "well, ok, there's ONE point of goodness".

:rofl:
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh yah? Okay, I'm heading for the tv now. Thx! nt
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. K & R You go Rachel!
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. K&R
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Rachel is now presenting the case FOR Kagan.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Prof. Lawrence Lessig is now taking Glenn Greenwald APART
Edited on Mon May-10-10 08:23 PM by berni_mccoy
Says he loves Glenn, but says Greenwald is just completely inaccurate and dishonest in his assessment of Kagan.

destroyed the blank slate argument
showed how Greenwald took shit out of context
and now is destroying the whole terrorist / battlefield bullshit.

"Glenn has flatly misstated the case"
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Greenwald has had a lot to criticize since the Democratic takeover in Nov 2006
He seemed shrill to me, but since Obama took over, he has written a lot of good columns that I appreciated much.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. That was excellent
Great program tonight.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
8. Lessig did a fine job introducing facts about Kagan.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Yes, he did very well.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. Glenn Greenwald is very smart. He's also usually wrong.

He's the left's version of George Will. Wrong about most things, but very articulate in writing his wrong opinions.



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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. that is a very good comparison.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. Good comparison
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. Rachel is a circuit-breaker.
Greenwald is good but he ain't as good as Rachel.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
12. Did they address Kagan's hiring record?
Would liberals/progressives excuse a Republican nominee with a similar record? I don't think we would, but I've been wrong before. Did that point get called? I'm also quite interested to hear from Nominee Kagan how she regards entities such as Goldman Sachs: Can she take their money, and then turn around and screw 'em (as former speaker of the California Assembly Willie Brown so famously delineated)?

These are real, live, actual issues that I would like to see addressed before saying yea or nay to a seat on the Supreme Court for Ms. Kagan. And it doesn't matter much to me who else thinks so.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. No, but this has been well debunked. She was one member of a 5-person committee
She did not have a "final" decision on hiring.

And the other 4 people were WHITE MEN on the committee.

You may want to read this before you keep spouting RW-fed talking points: http://open.salon.com/blog/saturn_smith/2010/05/07/the_case_against_kagans_hiring_practices_is_wrong

Furthermore, the hiring was in-line with the distribution of the APPLICANTS:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/05/on-kagans-minority-hiring-record.html
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I'll go back to my first question
Would liberals/progressives excuse a Republican nominee with a similar record? As Dean of the law school, is it up to Kagan to chart her own course, or is it to continue the practices of the past "because we've always done it that way"? Was it more important to her to get along with her hiring committee, or to provide leadership? I'm also more that a little chary of her association with Goldman Sachs, which associations (Kagan's and others) don't appear to bother this administration the way it does me.

Sorry if these questions are uncomfortable to the point of accusing me of "spouting RW-fed talking points." But I think they're important, and should be answered. You're apparently all right with the responses other people have made up for Ms. Kagan that let her off the hook; I'm not.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. Lol! My wife and Greenwald are fighting on twitter! n/t
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. And now Lessig told my wife, "Yeah, that's what I was trying to say on the show.." n/t
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
17. On the Supreme Court, not a lot of respect for Elena Kagan
* I like Rachel too, perhaps she will speak to these concerns, if she finds them valid.

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010

The solicitor general's appearances before the high court have been marked by unusually brusque treatment

By James Doty

In the extensive speculation about Elena Kagan’s potential nomination to the Supreme Court, left-leaning commentators have mainly debated whether Kagan’s ideological instincts are sufficiently liberal.

Largely overlooked, though, is an issue that is ultimately more far-reaching: whether Kagan would be an effective liberal on the court -- that is, whether she has the skills to win over Anthony Kennedy, who casts the decisive vote in nearly all of the court’s most closely divided cases, and whether she could match wits with Antonin Scalia and John Roberts, the court’s conservative fire-breathers.

Based on a review of the transcripts of Kagan’s appearances before the court as President Obama's solicitor general, there is little reason to believe that she possesses particular deftness on either front. Even more surprisingly, Kagan has not infrequently raised the ire of the court’s more liberal members, her supposed ideological allies. The data points are few (she has argued only six cases before the court), but they give little reason to believe that her transition to the court would be made with anything approaching seamlessness.

Kagan’s very first oral argument -- in the landmark Citizens United case -- is emblematic. The first interruption came about three sentences into the argument: "Wait, wait, wait, wait." That was Justice Scalia, convinced that Kagan had gone awry on her very first point. Kagan’s attempted explanation went nowhere. Scalia, again: "I don't understand what you are saying."

When John Paul Stevens tried to suggest a potential answer to Kagan, she missed the cue, prompting the normally patient Stevens to remark, "I don’t think you really caught what I suggested."

Things got no better during the rest of Kagan’s half-hour at the podium. At about the 29-minute mark, Ruth Bader Ginsburg asked about the government’s apparent switch in position over the course of the case. Here, according to the transcript, is how Kagan's reply went: "'The government’s answer has changed, Justice Ginsburg.' (Laughter.)"

To a certain extent, Kagan’s troubles were not of her own making. Through various procedural maneuvers, the court had suggested long before her argument that it would hold against the government, so Kagan cannot fairly be called the author of the government’s Citizens United loss.

But she certainly didn’t do herself or the United States any favors. When the case was argued in September 2009, a modest defeat was still well within the realm of possibility, provided that Kagan could secure Kennedy’s vote. But she seemed oddly unconcerned with addressing his qualms. At one point, Kennedy asked Kagan to address a particular issue, which she had labeled "point two" in her opening remarks:


Kennedy: In the course of this argument, have you covered point two? ... I would like to know what it is.

Kagan: I very much appreciate that, Justice Kennedy. I think I did cover point two.


She quickly moved on. Four months later, Kennedy wrote a 5-4 opinion that handed Kagan and the U.S. government a sweeping defeat.

In subsequent arguments, Kagan has proven no more adept at assuaging Kennedy’s anxieties. In a recent case, Kennedy’s question about a particular piece of legal precedent was met with, "I -- I am not familiar with that case." In another argument, Kennedy suggested that Kagan was dodging the crux of his hypothetical: "No, no, no. That makes ... my hypo too easy for you." And in yet another case, Kagan was unable to muster a coherent response to Kennedy’s request for case law supporting the government’s position.

Kagan’s attempts at pacifying the court’s conservatives have similarly faltered. It’s hardly surprising that justices like Scalia and Roberts would disagree with the positions taken by a representative of the Obama administration. What is noteworthy, though, is the curtness with which they’ve done so.

For example, in a case challenging the constitutionality of a key provision of Sarbanes-Oxley, the 2002 law that in part established a new government agency to supervise auditing firms, various assertions by Kagan were brusquely dismissed: "No, but that’s not true" (Scalia); "Oh, no, no" (Roberts); and "No" (Roberts again).

Kagan’s most recent argument, Robertson v. United States, played out much the same way. There, Roberts called one of Kagan’s assertions "absolutely startling." And when she supported one legal point with the claim that "he United States Government is a complicated place," Roberts remarked sardonically, "I take your word for it." Later, when Kagan returned one of Scalia’s questions with a query of her own, Roberts offered a subtle but unmistakable rebuke: "Usually we have questions the other way."

Notably, the rough treatment has not just come at the hands of Roberts and Scalia. Their left-leaning colleagues have occasionally been equally exasperated by Kagan: "hat’s not what I’m talking about" (Stephen Breyer); "I don’t understand that point at all" (Sonia Sotomayor); "That is not my question" (Stevens).

These mild reprimands might seem like unexceptional bits of standard judicial give-and-take, but there are several reasons to think they might signify something more meaningful. For one, the Supreme Court is a place of exceeding decorousness. In the unfailingly civil world of court proceedings, even minor impoliteness can indicate severe misgivings.

This is all the more true given Kagan's role as solicitor general, a position often referred to as the "tenth justice," because of the frequency with which the court consults his or her views. A relationship of respect and trust typically develops between the justices and the solicitor general. Thus, any signs that the bond between the two is fraying -- or nonexistent -- is noteworthy.

It is worth remembering, too, that well before Kagan’s first Supreme Court argument, she was rumored to be on Obama’s short list for any future court opening. When the justices interrogate Kagan, they know they’re speaking with someone who may well be a future colleague. Telling, then, are the occasional slips in the court’s typical mask of politeness.

remainder: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/04/15/kagan_as_solictor_general
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
20. And what about being in favor of putting Siegelman in jail for another 20 years? n/t
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I'm not sure about that one, she supported that? Here is Greenwald
and his response to the claims made about him by Lessig, a friend of Kagan. Worth reading imo.


Although I would have preferred an opportunity to address the accusations Lessig was making about me through an interactive exchange, I was glad Rachel presented both sides of the debate. But there is one serious accusation that Lessig spouted that is so blatantly and inexcusably false that I feel compelled to highlight it, particularly since I was unable to respond last night. This is what Lessig said when referencing "this work had written when she wrote this piece for the Harvard Law Review" in 2001:


This is another area where Glenn has just flatly misstated the case. In his piece on Democracy Now on April 13, he said that in that article, she talked about the power of the President to indefinitely detain anyone around the world.

Now, that article was written before George Bush, before 9/11, and before George Bush articulated anything about this power. It has nothing to do with the power of the President to detain anybody. The power of the unitary executive that George Bush articulated -- this kind of uber power of unitary executive -- was nowhere even hinted at in Elena's article. Yet Glenn has repeatedly asserted that she is George Bush, and that is just flatly wrong.


If I were listening to that and had no familiarity with what I had written, I'd have thought: Wow, that Glenn Greenwald is either completely dishonest or a total idiot; how can he go around claiming that Kagan's 2001 law review article defended Bush detention policies when it was written before those policies were even implemented and had nothing to do with those policies? People questioning the Kagan pick obviously have no credibility. And that, of course, is exactly the impression Lessig's accusation was intended to create.

Except it's totally false. I've never said, believed or even hinted at any such thing -- let alone "repeatedly asserted" it. Lessig just made that up out of thin air and, knowing nobody was there to dispute it, unleashed it on national television. Kagan's comments embracing indefinite detention powers came in her 2008 Solicitor General confirmation hearing when answering Lindsey Graham: please see Law Professor Jonathan Turley's superb analysis on that exchange. Her position on detention was expressed there, not in her 2001 Law Review article, and -- contrary to Lessig' inexcusably false accusations -- I never, ever claimed otherwise. In fact, here is what I wrote about her 2001 law review article in "The Case Against Elena Kagan":


The only other real glimpse into Kagan's judicial philosophy and views of executive power came in a June, 2001 Harvard Law Review article (.pdf), in which she defended Bill Clinton's then-unprecedented attempt to control administrative agencies by expanding a variety of tools of presidential power that were originally created by the Reagan administration (some of which Kagan helped build while working in the Clinton White House), all as a means of overcoming a GOP-controlled Congress. This view that it is the President rather than Congress with primary control over administrative agencies became known, before it was distorted by the Bush era, as the theory of the "unitary executive." I don't want to over-simplify this issue or draw too much importance from it; what Kagan was defending back then was many universes away from what Bush/Cheney ended up doing, and her defense of Clinton's theories of administrative power was nuanced, complex and explicitly cognizant of the Constitutional questions they might raise.


How can Larry Lessig possibly say on television that I claimed the 2001 Kagan law review article defended Bush's detention powers when I explicitly wrote that the article was about Clinton's domestic policies; that she was discussing the unitary executive theory "before it was distorted by the Bush era"; and that "what Kagan was defending back then was many universes away from what Bush/Cheney ended up doing"? Let's repeat that: "what Kagan was defending was many universes away fromwhat Bush/Cheney ended up doing." I know full well that Kagan's 2001 law review article was about domestic policy and not Bush detention policy -- that's as obvious as 2+2=4 and I've never believed or stated anything close to what Lessig said. In fact, I explicitly said the opposite. One has to be completely disconnected from any concerns about factual accuracy to say something like that in light of what I actually wrote.

Worse, compare what I actually said in that April 13 Democracy Now appearance that he cited to what Lessig claimed I said there:


LESSIG, last night: "In his piece on Democracy Now on April 13, said that in that article, talked about the power of the President to indefinitely detain anyone around the world."

ME, Democracy Now, April 13: "And what little there is to see comes from her confirmation hearing as Solicitor General and a law review article she wrote in 2001, in which she expressed very robust defenses of executive power, including the power of the president to indefinitely detain anybody around the world as an enemy combatant, based on the Bush-Cheney theory that the entire world is a battlefield and the US is waging a worldwide war."


When describing her views on executive authority and detention power, I explicity cited two sources of information to know Kagan's views: (1) her 2001 law review article (which did indeed advocacte robust executive authority) and (2) "her confirmation hearing as Solicitor General" (which is where she described her views on detention powers, advocating exactly the view I attributed to her). To claim, as Lessig did, that I "said that in that article, talked about the power of the President to indefinitely detain anyone around the world" is blatantly false. She did that at her confirmation hearing, not in her 2001 article. If Lessig misread what I said in that one interview, that'd be one thing, but he claimed last night that I've "repeatedly asserted" it.

This isn't the most significant falsehood in the world, but when someone like Larry Lessig launches such an obvious, concerted falsehood about you on television and you have no opportunity then to correct it, you feel compelled to respond. That's what I'm doing here. I've had very constructive exchanges with Lessig in the past, still respect him (despite his defense of Obama's violation of his vow to filibuster telecom immunity), and believe his statements last night were the by-product not of malice but of the fact that he's defending a long-time friend of his. Still, these are the kind of falsehoods that so regularly get spouted in our political discussions. And what's really going on here, more generally, is clear.

The White House has created a "war room" to attack Kagan critics. As Politico noted yesterday, the Kagan announcement -- understandably and revealingly so -- prompted "a stronger opposition from the left than the right." Think about that. Miguel Estrada, whom Democrats blocked from an appellate court position on the ground that he was a right-wing radical, endorsed Kagan for the Court today. A separate article details how numerous progressive legal scholars (who have nothing to do with me) have raised very serious concerns about Kagan's glaring lack of a record and what appears to be her support for at least some core right-wing views of executive power (including ones the Obama White House has adopted).

The White House, for obvious reasons, wants to discredit those raising such concerns. Now that Kagan is Obama's choice, she's the Democratic cause. The entire Democratic Party machinery -- the ossified DC progressive establishment, the Obama army, her friends from Harvard -- will be devoted to aggressively defending her and attacking her critics. This whole debate over Kagan has already broken down along clear tribal lines, and any progressive opposing or even questioning Kagan will be seen as a Traitor to the Cause. And Kagan, having spent the last two decades in academia and as a Democratic official in Washington, has a lot of influential friends. As Marc Ambinder put it: "Kagan is part of the club." She certainly is.

That's all well and good. Aggressively attacking critics is a normal and inevitable part of the process. But if the Democratic Party wants to put someone on the Supreme Court for the next 30 to 40 years about whom so little is known -- even ultimate Court sycophant Tom Goldstein said of Kagan: "The last nominee about whose views we knew so little was David Souter. . . . I don’t know anyone who has had a conversation with her in which she expressed a personal conviction on a question of constitutional law in the past decade" -- then others have not just the right, but the duty, to raise concerns and demand more information. Trying to discredit those who do that is how party appartchiks function, and that's fine. But making things up and spouting clear falsehoods definitely isn't.


remainder: http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/05/11/lessig/index.html
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I agree how can this even be an issue when 95 BIPARTISAN former Attorneys Generals
have raised the issue of a political prosecution?
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
23. K & R
:thumbsup:
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
24. Oh noes! Now Rachel is a corporatist stooge, too!
:rofl:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Maybe she doesn't know that Kagan wants to jail Siegelman for twenty years
How about contacting her and telling her?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
25. Greenwald: "How people spew total falsehoods on TV"
I appeared on The Rachel Maddow Show last night to articulate the case against Elena Kagan, and was then followed by Kagan friend and defender Larry Lessig of Harvard Law School, who spent five minutes (in my absence) trying to discredit me and what I said (video of the two segments is below). Although I would have preferred an opportunity to address the accusations Lessig was making about me through an interactive exchange, I was glad Rachel presented both sides of the debate. But there is one serious accusation that Lessig spouted that is so blatantly and inexcusably false that I feel compelled to highlight it, particularly since I was unable to respond last night. This is what Lessig said when referencing "this work had written when she wrote this piece for the Harvard Law Review" in 2001:

This is another area where Glenn has just flatly misstated the case. In his piece on Democracy Now on April 13, he said that in that article, she talked about the power of the President to indefinitely detain anyone around the world.

Now, that article was written before George Bush, before 9/11, and before George Bush articulated anything about this power. It has nothing to do with the power of the President to detain anybody. The power of the unitary executive that George Bush articulated -- this kind of uber power of unitary executive -- was nowhere even hinted at in Elena's article. Yet Glenn has repeatedly asserted that she is George Bush, and that is just flatly wrong.

If I were listening to that and had no familiarity with what I had written, I'd have thought: Wow, that Glenn Greenwald is either completely dishonest or a total idiot; how can he go around claiming that Kagan's 2001 law review article defended Bush detention policies when it was written before those policies were even implemented and had nothing to do with those policies? People questioning the Kagan pick obviously have no credibility. And that, of course, is exactly the impression Lessig's accusation was intended to create.

Except it's totally false. I've never said, believed or even hinted at any such thing -- let alone "repeatedly asserted" it. Lessig just made that up out of thin air and, knowing nobody was there to dispute it, unleashed it on national television. Kagan's comments embracing indefinite detention powers came in her 2008 Solicitor General confirmation hearing when answering Lindsey Graham: please see Law Professor Jonathan Turley's superb analysis on that exchange. Her position on detention was expressed there, not in her 2001 Law Review article, and -- contrary to Lessig' inexcusably false accusations -- I never, ever claimed otherwise. In fact, here is what I wrote about her 2001 law review article in "The Case Against Elena Kagan":

The only other real glimpse into Kagan's judicial philosophy and views of executive power came in a June, 2001 Harvard Law Review article (.pdf), in which she defended Bill Clinton's then-unprecedented attempt to control administrative agencies by expanding a variety of tools of presidential power that were originally created by the Reagan administration (some of which Kagan helped build while working in the Clinton White House), all as a means of overcoming a GOP-controlled Congress. This view that it is the President rather than Congress with primary control over administrative agencies became known, before it was distorted by the Bush era, as the theory of the "unitary executive." I don't want to over-simplify this issue or draw too much importance from it; what Kagan was defending back then was many universes away from what Bush/Cheney ended up doing, and her defense of Clinton's theories of administrative power was nuanced, complex and explicitly cognizant of the Constitutional questions they might raise.

...

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/05/11/lessig/index.html
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Yeah, he's getting desperate now that Rachel exposed him. And the funny thing was
he did most of the talking.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Did you read his response, it had noting to do with
Rachel, but with Lessig.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. His response was desperate.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Hardly, but there is an update if you're interested:
UPDATE: Lessig and I have spent the day emailing with one another in order to resolve these disputes (even as the melodramatic FIGHT!! pieces proliferated). We both essentially agree that the rhetoric and accusations escalated more quickly than either anticipated (or was really warranted), and that this is really just a good faith dispute over an issue (the Kagan nomination) that desperately needs to be aired and debated (and both said so on Twitter). Lessig has appended a similar note to the response he wrote at TheHuffington Post today, and we're going to do a Bloggingheads session this week to examine these and other issues.


http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/05/11/lessig/index.html
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