Is authority an illusion?

[ZombieHorde]

[opihimoimoi]

1. We only wish it is twue....but in our modern Society....someone gatta be a cop to enforce rules

[ZombieHorde]

15. What is the ultimate source, or origin, of a police officer's authority.

Some in this thread seem to suggest a police officer's authority comes from the threat of violence. Would you agree.

[opihimoimoi]

29. Law enforcement is the system set up by the top administraitors to keep order

authority comes with the job...and whatever violence emerges is co incidental....

[ZombieHorde]

31. Where do the top administrators get the authority to bestow authority? nt

[howard112211]

2. It's a complex question.

IMO it can be somewhat of an illusion, in the sense of the "prisoner's dilemma" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma .

But it is also very real, when someone is pointing a gun at your face.

At the end of the day it boils down to the concept of "might makes right" IMO.

[Greyhound]

3. Yes it is. n/t

[Dr Morbius]

4. Authority is real, and it has an arrow pointing up.

Which is to say, authority is empowered by those over whom authority is wielded. The policeman's power over me is based on my willingness to cooperate with him and tolerate his authority over me. I allow government at all levels to hold a similar authority over me, with some limits. I cede limitless authority to no one.

Authority isn't an illusion; I voted no. The power that comes with authority IS an illusion, though, because the arrow of power points down, and the arrow of authority points up. In other words, if you misuse the power your authority brings you, expect that empowerment to disappear.

[ZombieHorde]

21. Other people's authority over you is something you must give to those people?

I think Gandhi would agree with that.

[salguine]

5. What are you asking? Are you asking "why do we put up with this shit when there are

300 million of 'us'"?

[scheming daemons]

6. "I have as much authority as the pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it"

--George Carlin.

It's my tagline below.

[ZombieHorde]

16. I completely agree with George Carlin on that. nt

[Quantess]

7. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

[B Calm]

8. Not if you can secretly tape the assholes! Then you could be on even ground!

[Douglas Carpenter]

9. I suppose it is...but I don't see any way to conduct a social order without it

The great Russian Anarchist-Philosopher Peter Kropotkin once said, "Wherever there is authority - there is no freedom."

That is probably true, but in a violently hostile biosphere where living organism struggle for survival, dominance and control of resources and the will to power seems to be intrinsic to the earth-life system and perhaps a major reason why some survive and others don't - I doubt that sustaining a livable order is possible without authority. I wish it was, but I don't think so.

One only needs to look at what happens when all meaningful authority does collapse such as during disasters or the chaos created when vacuums or authority arise such as during war zones or the immediate aftermath of armed conflict to conclude that there is probably no alternative to having authority.

I wish this wasn't so. I find the anarchist ideal most appealing. The Great Russian Philosopher was absolutely right when he said that wherever there is authority - there is no freedom. Unfortunately, wherever there is no authority - the darkest side of the human condition seems to always emerge its violent head. As an old Middle Eastern proverb goes, "One day of chaos is worse than a thousand years of tyranny."

The best we can hope for is responsive, somewhat civilized and humane and above all - an accountable authority.

[Echo In Light]

10. Illusion keeps brainwashed americans running on their hamster wheels; "we're FREE! we're FREE!"

[Solly Mack]

11. Yes

[ThomWV]

12. If you had ever been hit with a Billy-club or a 4-cell flashlight you wouldn't ask the question.

[ZombieHorde]

17. Are you saying authority is violence?

Does the authority shift if you hit back? What if you incapacitate the person who hits you?

[Zix]

46. Typically he calls for back up.

The rest of us don't really have any.

[G_j]

20. my thought exactly nt

[RadiationTherapy]

13. There is no authority anywhere and everyone is absolutely free.

Robert Anton Wilson has an answer for everything!

[ZombieHorde]

18. I agree completely. RIP RAW. nt

[ipaint]

14. Yes. nt

[RadicalTexan]

19. Yes and no

Yes in that you can pretend there is no authority, or refuse to recognize any authority, but that authority will, as a result, come down on you, take your shit, and kick your ass.

No in that you are still, ultimately, always free to choose your own actions, every second of every day, for as long as you are alive.

$0.02

[ZombieHorde]

22. Does authority = violence or threat of violence? nt

[ismnotwasm]

23. Only way to find out

It to consistently challenge any perceived authority and see what happens.

(I like the Carlin quote as well)

[ZombieHorde]

24. What would be a "positive"? nt

[ismnotwasm]

33. Eww-- hard question

I don't have an answer.

There is a series of books by Octavia Butler (Sci-fi)based around the principle that humankind it doomed because we have "two incompatible characteristics" We are both intelligent and hierarchical. Partially 'saved' by aliens in the book after destroying ourselves comes only by being genetically combined with them--which is what these particular aliens do. The aliens revere life and won't restore human kind as it was, partly out of biological imperative and partly because they know we'd destroy ourselves again.

Good story and a disturbing one.

But let me use it as the base for a 'what if' answer; If intelligence and hierarchical behavior--hierarchical behavior seeming to be the base of authority-- are incompatible in the long run, and, as in the story it's genetically driven, authority isn't an illusion, and there ultimately isn't a 'positive'. If the two characteristics are part of our social evolution and we're simply on our way to a higher and better socialization (don't I wish)the perception of and need for authority would hopefully be replaced by something less destructive and far more beneficial.

[ZombieHorde]

37. What is the name of the series? nt

[ismnotwasm]

38. It's in an Omnibus called "Lilith's Brood" n/t

[johnlucas]

25. Always was an illusion

Somewhere long long ago a clever man hoodwinked his fellow members of the tribe into following his lead.
That clever man then surrounded himself with tough but similarly hoodwinked men to make sure that the others would CONTINUE following his lead.

I theorize that the uncertainly of the natural world & its dangerous beasts, violent weather, and drought-filled landscapes gave the others incentive to follow that clever guy's lead.

And it's been a human tradition ever since.

I like that person who quoted George Carlin saying that he has as much authority as the Pope only less people who believed that he did.

A man is a man. A woman is a woman. A human being is a human being.
They all bleed, breed, breathe, eat, sleep, "pee", and "poo".
They all have boogers coming out their noses & wax bunched up in their ears.
They all have that gunk in their eye & that slobber on their cheek when they wake up in the morning.
All are mortal. All are ultimately fragile both in body & in mind.

Authority is only held together by its arsenal. By its potential of violence & oppression towards the subjects of that "authority".

The only question is when do the masses of people recognize the illusion of authority for what it is?
How does a few rule many & continue to rule many without regard for that many?

When the majority of the world ponder upon this & come to the natural conclusion then we will enter the next stage of human development: the end of "leaders", the beginning of the self-led.
John Lucas

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

26. No. It's an allusion.

[proteus_lives]

27. Not when it hits you over the head.

[ZombieHorde]

28. Does rain have authority, or do you mean authority is another word for violence? nt

[proteus_lives]

30. Doesn't begin with violence.

But it could end there.

You could think that authority is an illusion but that won't stop the majority of society from thinking it's real. Which means it impacts and affects you whither you believe in it or not.

[ZombieHorde]

34. I agree, we also have to deal with the impact of global warming deniers, evolutions deniers,

believers in trickle down economics, believers in a vengeful Allah, etc., etc.

Real results from illusions.

[AnArmyVeteran]

32. The 'illusion' only works because of absolute conformity by the masses...

People conform constantly in their lives. They are taught to conform by parents and by society. Without conformity titles, positions and ranks would have no meaning. One person would be as equal as another. Power structures are built and sustained using conformity. Fear drives a lot of conformity.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

35. Yes, just like money, music, and computer software.

[bemildred]

36. Well, a collective delusion, and the result of collusion, yeah, but illusion, no.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. It's an illusion that, under most circumstances, people have little choice but to take seriously.

I mean, define "illusion"- the matter in the chair you're sitting on is mostly empty space, and the little bits that aren't are more accurately described by probability waves and functions than by little billiard balls whizzing around.

Certain kinds of authority are, IMHO, more illusory than others- the Pope is alleged to have some sort of "authority", but to me he's at best a creepy guy in a funny hat, at worst a fugitive from international law.

[ZombieHorde]

40. "Something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality."

The above definition of illusion is from dictionary.com

"the matter in the chair you're sitting on is mostly empty space, and the little bits that aren't are more accurately described by probability waves and functions than by little billiard balls whizzing around"

This is why people should never be offended by the label, "air head."

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Using that definition, I suppose the answer to your question is "Yes and No"

Some forms of authority are clearly more illusory than others. The cop who says he'll shoot you if you don't drop what you're holding has authority in a fashion that is clearly in line with the reality you will most likely face if you don't do as he says.

The 'authority' of the Pope, or, say, Fashion magazines? I would call that authority wholly illusory, although I suppose that is subjective and depends on your personal definition of 'reality'.

[ZombieHorde]

42. I wish I would have stated in my OP I was not using authority to mean expert.

Fortunately, most posters somehow realized what I meant.

The cop who says he'll shoot you if you don't drop what you're holding has authority in a fashion that is clearly in line with the reality you will most likely face if you don't do as he says.

Does this mean authority = threat of violence? Many posters seem to suggest this, but won't explicitly say it.

Perhaps I should make a new poll, "Is 'authority' synonymous with 'duress'?"

[Warren DeMontague]

43. The Pope's authority isn't that of "expert", so much as it is that of "ruler".

And yeah, I think it's illusory.

The "authority" you speak of -generally, that of governments- is backed up by the threat of violence. That's how their illusion becomes your reality.

[ZombieHorde]

44. The expert comment was based off of your fashion magazine reference.

I thought you meant fashion magazines could be viewed as an authority (expert) on the subject of fashion.

[Warren DeMontague]

47. I was trying to think of the most ridiculous examples I could think of, of entities people take

directions from.

(Listening to, I dunno- these aren't the magazines I read-- Vogue? People? :shrug: about what clothes to wear or what kind of haircut to get is silly, maybe not as silly as listening to the crusty old fart in the Vatican about what to do with one's johnson, but silly nonetheless IMHO)

Like, the 'fashion police'. Although it's interesting that authority (someone who tells you what to do) is also the same word as authority (someone who tells you how things are) ... maybe there's some overlap there.

[AnArmyVeteran]

45. "Nothing is real, nothing to get hung about, Strawberry Fields Forever"

[cherokeeprogressive]

48. Only until you get tased, Bro.

[ZombieHorde]

50. Do you believe "authority" is synonymous with "duress"?

Is the POTUS' authority duress?

[Laughing Mirror]

49. Everything is an illusion

Including this post.

[ZombieHorde]

51. Why do you believe everything is an illusion? nt

[Laughing Mirror]

53. a belief is an illusion

all beliefs

[ZombieHorde]

54. You're just being silly. nt

[Orsino]

52. Not unless every goddamned history book is also an illusion.

Authority is usually how things get done.