Now, now you Greeks....'The Markets' want you to settle down....Revolutionary stuff makes them antsy

[marmar]

Greek Protests ‘Scaring Off’ Markets, Nobel Winner Phelps Says
May 05, 2010, 6:24 AM EDT

By Jennifer Ryan and Rishaad Salamat


May 5 (Bloomberg) -- Nobel prize-winning economist Edmund Phelps said public protests in Greece are turning investors against the nation, and their “uneasiness” is spreading to other European countries.

“The demonstrations in Athens are another factor that must be scaring off, turning the mood of credit markets even more against Athens,” he said in an interview on Bloomberg Television today. “Interest rates are sky-high in Greece. It’s going to have further business contraction, it’s just in a desperate condition.”

Greek air traffic controllers, teachers and shopkeepers are walking off their jobs today to challenge cuts imposed on wages and pensions. European Central Bank council member Axel Weber said that Greece’s fiscal crisis is threatening “grave contagion effects” in the euro area, justifying Germany’s contribution to a 110 billion-euro ($142 billion) aid package.

“There’s an uneasiness that’s undoubtedly spreading to Spain and Portugal and who knows where next,” Phelps said. “Each potential lender is afraid to lend if he thinks other lenders are not going to be lending too, because he may be out in the cold.” ................(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-05-05/greek-protests-scaring-off-markets-nobel-winner-phelps-says.html

[ShortnFiery]

1. Wow, the Greeks know how to host a protest.

:wow: Amazing coverage on EuroNews and France24.

[MellowDem]

118. Yeah, they just killed 3 people. nt

[ananda]

2. Ooohh

All this unrest might lead.. gasp.. to real economic
change.

[NJmaverick]

3. Well when people refuse to own up to their problems

No one wants to give them yet more money. Life's funny like that

[socialist_n_TN]

4. Read "The Shock Doctrine....................

The Rise of Disaster Capitalism" by Naomi Klein (I believe I got all that right). What the capitalists did to South America in the 70s, they're trying to do to Europe today starting with Greece. Next Spain. Fuck 'em. It's time for the billionaires to pay some. The average Joe has paid enough. Nationalize it ALL, world wide!

[girl gone mad]

15. It's like S. America in the 80s.

Greeks now say "no thanks" to a lost decade.

Pay attention, Washington. This is what you get when you bail out failed fatcat bankers, who in turn give themselves record bonuses and resume running roughshod over the "free" markets, then you tell the little guy he must pay the price for a calamity which he had no part in.

[villager]

6. Unless you're a banker or a Wall Street Baron! Then you can not own up to your problems..,

...and still get tons of money!

Ours!

But let's not trouble our overlords with any pesky protests!

[laughingliberal]

7. +1000 nt

[freddie mertz]

27. How dare you, unruly citizens! To demand accountability from their government!

You speak treason to the international capitalist mega-state.

You have been deemed expendable.

Now sit back and shut up while we cut your healthcare, pensions, wages, and anything else we want to.

Sheesh.

[laughingliberal]

33. +1 nt

[Echo In Light]

105. The more the unruly rise up, the more it forces Greedheads to show their true police state colors

K/R

[Ardent15]

127. You must be the most useless poster here.

And that's saying something.

[freddie mertz]

133. There is another....

[Odin2005]

139. Not suprised to see you spewing pro-Corporatist garbage.

[OHdem10]

5. Instability in any form frightens Markets. This is why Populism in

this country is discouraged.

[blindpig]

8. Solidarity with the Greek People.

We are all in this together, what they are trying to do to the Greek people they will be extending to us real soon. Get ready.

k&r

[laughingliberal]

10. Yes, our bright, shiny 'deficit commission' is preparing our austerity program now

and will be rolling it out just after the midterm elections.

[Kitty Herder]

11. Yes.

And we don't have the courage or a the solidarity to bring the country to a halt the way the Greeks are doing.

[Nye Bevan]

13. So you approve of the Greeks "bringing their country to a halt"?

You think that this will solve their problems?

[laughingliberal]

17. I think it's a good thing when the ruling class sees the country can not run without

the cooperation of the proletariat. It does tend to be a disincentive for screwing the masses at every turn. Sadly, American peasants have no such leverage. We just put up with declining wages while all the money transfers up and our social safety net is raided to keep fueling those projects and tax cuts which favor the wealthy.

[Nye Bevan]

23. "Screwing the masses"?

The "masses" who don't pay their taxes and get to retire at age 54?

[laughingliberal]

25. Looks to me like it's, once again, the rich who aren't paying their taxes and

their social programs seemed to be doing fine til their former RW government bailed out their banks to the tune of $100 billion. Plenty of money for those at the top. When it all comes apart, make the proles work 20 more years for shit wages and raise 'consumer taxes.'

[Kitty Herder]

29. Yep.

[Statistical]

34. Their social programs weren't "doing fine"

They simply were able to borrow money cheaply (because of their inclusion in cheap money).

If you had a $100K credit card and stopped working tomorrow everything would seem "fine" for a couple years until you maxed it out.
Greece has maxed out its credit card and now the interest rates are going up.

Even with NO DEBT (poof all vanishes tomorrow) Greece still has an 8.5% deficit.

Without the ability to borrow they would need to cut spending by 8.5% or raise revenue by 8.5%.

[laughingliberal]

36. So glad you like this neo liberal austerity approach

You're gonna love it when they institute ours.

And I still think that the $100 billion they gave their banksters would have gone a long way towards keeping the social programs afloat.

[Statistical]

37. Maybe it would for a couple years but then they would be in the same boat 2-3 years down the road.

Pretty simple concept

Erase all of Greece debt. Gone. Now you have to imagine if all that debt is erased Greece isn't going to be able to borrow more.

Right now EXPENSES are 8.5% higher than REVENUE.

Thus even with NO DEBT either expenses need to decline 8.5% or revenue needs to rise 8.5%. Greeks don't want either to happen. They happily avoid paying taxes while demanding more and more benefits.

I mean it is pretty common sense that the house of cards would collapse. If Greece wasn't part of the EU it would have happened a long time ago. Rate of Greek debt have remained low because of the security that Greece being part of the EU brings.

[laughingliberal]

50. Still comes down to who pays

And this program puts it squarely on the workers and the poor as do all the World Bank and IMF austerity programs. Protect the rich at all costs.

[Statistical]

51. No it doesn't.

It simply requires that budget deficit be cut to 3% within 3 years.

The Greeks simply don't want to pay anything.

They are use to decade of paying 10% of less of income taxes.
They are use to an entire shadow economy being 1/3 of the entire country that is VAT free.

They want all the benefits of a highly socialized state with none of the taxes.
They have more in common with teabaggers than progressives.

[Hannah Bell]

80. thanks, but i can get that spin on fox if i want it.

the people who "aren't paying taxes" are the people with money, get it?

the people being hit by the imf = the working classes & the poor.

[fascisthunter]

102. we are tired of Fox News, that's why we come here

thanks but no thanks for the info

[Greyhound]

99. What you and your "fair" market friends never mention are the reasons behind the deficit.

Read up on Greece's admission into the EU, and then read up on the WTO-IMF-Bechtel-Halliburton-corporate Merry-Go-Round.

[Statistical]

108. Read up on Greece 100 years of financial insolvency and then tell me it was the EU fault.

Greece was running unsustainable deficits prior to joining the EU.

They made agreement to cut deficits to 3% of GDP as condition for joining.

Only problem is they didn't deficit grew even faster.
Taxes slumped despite GDP and wages rising and the govt began to promise more and more and more.

Blaming the EU is silly.
The strength of the Euro and the backstop of the EU is what kept Greece afloat.
Had Greece not been part of the EU they would have ran into a crisis years ago.

Greece WILL cut spending and raise taxes. The only question is it before or after bankruptcy?

[girl gone mad]

107. That isn't quite the reality of the sitution in Greece..

you are choosing to parrot shallow neo-lib IMF nonsense.

[Statistical]

110. So you claim. Greece direct (non debt) deficit is 8.5% this is as report from Greek govt.

That means today even excluding all past debts they are spending 8.5% more than they have in revenue.

Like having a $60K job but spending $65 a year. Eventually people will stop lending you money and then even if you default either you need more revenue or less spending.

A nonstop spending of other people's money is Greece bigger problem. Crazy that those people would expect Greece to pay it back.

[girl gone mad]

126. Maybe learn a bit more about how monetary policy actually works in the real world..

before lecturing us with the IMF babble. The IMF has no record of success.

For those interested in fact, not neo-lib fiction, http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=9533">read on. Delusional deficit hawks, fly away.

[Greyhound]

132. When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail. n/t

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nye Bevan]

121. Ooooh. Clever post.

:thumbsup:

[704wipes]

129. +1

what he said

[Kitty Herder]

28. I don't approve of the violence.

But yes, I definitely approve of the general strike.

[Nye Bevan]

39. The general strike makes the same amount of sense

as striking against an employer who is in severe financial difficulties and on the verge of bankruptcy. Even if that employer wants to keep paying you generous wages and benefits, he just doesn't have the money. Going on strike is not going to magically produce extra money from nowhere.

[JCMach1]

41. Yeah because we all know going on strike never did any good!

extreme :sarcasm: intended

[Nye Bevan]

42. Thanks for the strawman.

Of course going on strike can do good. When an employer is making huge profits and has plenty of money but is still underpaying its workers, for example. But when an employer is essentially bust, like Greece is, of course going on strike does not do any good. It will simply be the final nail in the employer's coffin.

[JCMach1]

44. You are dead wrong... just from the recent past- Republic Windows

http://theunapologeticmexican.org/elmachete/2008/12/07/chicago-workers-demonstrate-power-of-the-takeover-strike/

[William Z. Foster]

140. say what?

Please tell me you are not arguing against general strikes. Tell me that you are not saying that "going on strike is not going to magically produce extra money." Please tell me you are not expressing sympathy for the owners because of their "financial difficulties." Please tell me that you are not arguing against the workers.

Shaking my head here.

[Cali_Democrat]

9. CNBC is looping the same riot videos over and over again. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

12. Government workers in Greece earn 14 months of pay for every year they work

and they get to retire at age 54.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/02/24/greece.protests.analysis/index.html

And while this system might be OK if Greeks paid their taxes, they pretty much don't:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html

Obviously something has to give. I guess the party was nice while it lasted but now some reality needs to set in.

[JCMach1]

14. All this is true, but it is also true that the former right-wing governments bailed out the banks

to the tune of around 100billion and financed it through bonds and now they want to fund this on the back of common people through 'austerity'...

Not to mention the IMF/GERMAN/EU bailout includes MORE MONEY for Greek banks.

People get austerity... banks get cash...


Your market forces at work! It pisses me off and I'm not Greek.

[Nye Bevan]

16. Speaking as someone who actually pays my taxes

and only earns 12 months of salary each year I work, I find it hard to work up a huge amount of sympathy for the Greeks.


ATHENS — In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.

So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.

That kind of wholesale lying about assets, and other eye-popping cases that are surfacing in the news media here, points to the staggering breadth of tax dodging that has long been a way of life here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html

[laughingliberal]

20. That would suggest, as it is here, that it is the wealthy who are skating on taxes

and, of course, it will be the workers and the poor who get to bail the country out.

[Nye Bevan]

24. Not just the wealthy.

Some of the most aggressive tax evaders, experts say, are the self-employed, a huge pool of people in this country of small businesses. It includes not just taxi drivers, restaurant owners and electricians, but engineers, architects, lawyers and doctors.

The cheating is often quite bold. When tax authorities recently surveyed the returns of 150 doctors with offices in the trendy Athens neighborhood of Kolonaki, where Prada and Chanel stores can be found, more than half had claimed an income of less than $40,000. Thirty-four of them claimed less than $13,300, a figure that exempted them from paying any taxes at all.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html?pagewanted=1

And it is obviously not the poor who will "bail out" Greece. How could they? They don't have the money.

[laughingliberal]

32. How will the poor bail out Greece? Consumer taxes, wage cuts, cuts to the social safety net.

I'm glad you approve cause they'll be announcing our nice neo-liberal austerity program via the 'deficit commission' just after the midterm elections.

[Hannah Bell]

72. and they'll crank out the same propaganda to justify it. "no one is paying taxes!"

[JCMach1]

21. But you buy the MSM propaganda solely? It was the banks and the former RW Gov

that got the country into the current mess and you want to blame the workers?!?

Keep in mind it was those same RW governments that kept their hands out of tax enforcement...

Sorry, but the biggest share of the blame goes to the Greek Gov., the banks, and their enablers such as Goldman Sachs and Standard&Poors

[Statistical]

26. Hardly even with NO DEBT Greece has an 8.5% deficit.

Very high tax evasion rate.

The income tax is stated income. So you state on income tax form what your income is and then make payments based on that.
Can anyone imagine someone making $50,000 a year "might" say they make $40,000 a year or $20,000 a year.

Tax enforcement has been historically lax.

As such the govt has simply made promises is can't afford.

Even if Greece had no debt they would need to either raise revenue 8.5% or cut spending 8.5%.

The Austerity measures are simply common sense.

[Hannah Bell]

56. "simply common sense." BULLSHIT.

[Statistical]

57. Expenses (excluding interest) 8.5% > Revenue = Insolvency.

The austerity package is merely short term bridge loans (because 80 billion in Greek notes comes due in next 2 years) bundled with a commitment to get deficits down to 3% in 3 years.

Unless you know a magic way to spend 8.5% of your budget from money you don't have forever and without consequence no matter what happens the Greek will need to close the deficit.

If they don't do it this way then they face bankruptcy and expulsion from EU and will STILL HAVE to cut spending & raise taxes.

[Hannah Bell]

81. gee, somehow the us has managed for over a hundred years.

[Statistical]

93. Not at an 8.5% direct deficit.

Direct deficit excludes interest & principle cost.
Total deficit for Greece is 13%+.

Direct spending 8.5% more than you have in revenue is simply unsustainable.

If US continues to have a high income vs expense imbalance (deficit) it will be an issue too however under like the deficit hawks I think getting the economy moving is more critical in short term however longer term 3-5 years the US will be facing the same situation.

We likely need to cut spending AND raise taxes to get our house in order. The "nice thing" is US will never face direct crisis that Greece does we will simply inflate our way out however inflation crushes wealth equally. Poor and Rich are ground under by having same amount of goods costing more and more and more.

[socialist_n_TN]

135. But the rich will ALWAYS be able to afford....................

inflation better than the poor and working class. So they buy one yacht rather than two or eat Alaskan caviar rather than Russian. That's a HELL of a lot less painful than having to live out of your car and eat catfood.

Geez, this pity for the rich just makes me SICK. Fuck 'em. Nationalize it ALL and TAKE their assets for the common good.

[girl gone mad]

128. You keep repeating these bogus talking poinds ad infinitum.

Pay attention.



Government spending is not the issue, the government has been cutting back spending for years. This has only worsened their economic conditions. Tax revenue shortage just one part of the equation (a small factor, at that). Greece's real problems lie in the collapse of private spending and exports. Due to the extreme restraints of being a member of the EMU, Greece lacks the ability to address this crisis as a sovereign nation could.

Austerity measures will only exacerbate the disastrous collapse in the private sector revenue which lies at the root of this crisis, just as they have in every other nation that's had such measures imposed upon them.

You are promoting fiscally insane policies. I would expect these vapid neo-lib ideas on a site like Free Republic, not on a progressive forum.

[Nye Bevan]

31. Of course I blame the Government

for not enforcing tax collection and giving the workers sweet deals like retirement at age 54.

I can't blame the workers for accepting the sweet deals that were offered to them. I would take that deal myself. The problem is, they never should have been offered in the first place.

[JCMach1]

35. So, if you divorced and your SO left you with huge debts that didn't belong to you

i.e. they maxxed your credit cards before leaving, you would pay that debt?

That would be the rough equivalent...

[Nye Bevan]

38. If my only alternative was bankruptcy and destitution then yes, I would.

And if I could repay the debts by only earning 12 months of pay for each year that I worked, and not retiring at 54, then I guess I would have to suck it up and live with it.

Taking to the streets and yelling and screaming might feel good for a short time but wouldn't help me in the long run.

[JCMach1]

40. Sorry, but I trust the people over the markets here...

Same as with the citizen uprising in Iceland, let the people decide... and if at the end of the day they want to tell IMF to FRAK off so be it.


If they choose austerity, let it be the choices they directly make.

[Nye Bevan]

43. The people *have* decided.

They have decided not to pay their taxes.

16,000 people in Athens have decided to lie about having a swimming pool.

And now they don't like the consequences of their decisions.

[JCMach1]

45. So the Gov. had nothing to do with that policy as well?

Last time I checked they were the collectors...

Not to mention the EU were also enablers by turning a blind eye to the problems at the time of Greece's membership in the EU...

[Statistical]

46. Yeah and now Greece govt and the EU are accepting reality.

Even excluding all debt Greece revenue is 8.5% less than it's expenses.

Debt or no debt taxes need to rise and benefits need to go down. Pure and simple.

The citizens have been getting use to getting something for nothing for a decade and are unwilling to actually pay the taxes to support that level of govt services.

Pretty simple concept. Long term revenue must be greater than expenses. The Greeks simply want expenses to be more than taxes forever.

[JCMach1]

47. I think most Greeks realize that... what they don't want is to be introduced to

disaster capitalism by the likes of the IMF.

However, we are in full disaster capitalism mode as many banks sit of piles of dollars they are loving the Euro drop and will make a killing betting against it on the way down. Then, they will start snatching-up european assets.

[Statistical]

49. Well they "accepted" disaster capitalism (if you want to call it that) for a decade.

Running up debts year after year after year.
Revenue < Expenses and put the rest on the giant EU credit card. No biggie right? Free money forever.

"I think most Greeks realize that."
No most don't that is the problem.

Most people would realize that 100% of the country can't lie about income taxes and stuff still get paid but they do that too.

Over 30% of the country economy is shadow economy to avoid paying VAT tax.

Yeah it is very obvious you can't "have stuff" and not pay taxes but that is EXACTLY what the Greeks have been doing for a decade and show no interest in changing.

They rioted when the govt said they would begin more strict enforcement of tax collection. Not actual strict enforcement just saying they will was enough to cause riots.

[JCMach1]

52. I hope you don't have the same attitude when the IMF comes for the good old USA

Substitute tax collection for tax cuts


and not paying VAT for excessive military spending... and you are not far off the U.S. situation.

Sorry, but the working people of the world deserve more than to be dictated to by the capitalist uberbankers from the ECB.

I would roll-over for that in our country... nor, would I expect the Greeks to...

[Statistical]

53. IMF coming to the USA.

IMF has never forced a single govt to "take" low interest loans.

Also it wouldn't make much sense for US to borrow from IMF since the US is largest funding source OF the IMF.

Conspiracy theorists are funny.

If Greece takes IMF funding (well below market rates) they will need to cut spending and raise taxes.
If Greece doesn't take IMF funding and resolves its debts (at much higher interest rates) they will STILL need to cut spending and raise taxes.
If Greece simply defaults they STILL will need to cut spending and raise taxes.

[JCMach1]

83. Doesn't matter who the banker is...

and there are many reasons the US won't find ourselves in that shape...

But fiscal responsibility is not one of them...

[Statistical]

89. Oh I agree US has NO fiscal responsibility (pretty much went out the window after Carter) n/t

[Hannah Bell]

84. of course they have.

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20100326/lead/lead8.html

http://www.chowk.com/ilogs/75846/48173


"amnesia theorists" are funny.


btw, what's the point of raising taxes, when according to you, no one pays them anyway?

according to you, raising taxes gets you bigger piles of zero.

not that i expect consistency in propaganda rollouts.

[Statistical]

91. Well that is why they are raising sales tax and increasing tax enforcement

Sales tax compliance is much higher (although horribly poor) and tax enforcement will ensure higher % of taxes collected.

Of course there are riots on both those measures too.

Want all the goodies but the bill will magically pay itself.

[Hannah Bell]

92. of course sales tax compliance is higher, because the lower classes pay the freight.

of course there are riots when the lower classes pay & the rich walk free.

the "tax evaders" ARE BENEFITING FROM THIS SHIT.

[Statistical]

97. Tax Evaders = entire country.

From the poorest of the poor to richest of the rich.
You are right they ALL did benefit from it.

When I said sales tax compliance was higher I didn't mean it was good. Noncompliance is roughly 30% compared to about 2%-3% in US (mostly illegal trades prostitution, gambling, drugs, etc).

Greece wants Freeper style taxation and socialist style benefits.
"Best of both worlds" until the party ended. Ultra low interest rates and the strength of Euro and backing of EU allowed the party to go on for quite a while (left to its own merits Greece would have been bankrupt years ago). Well the party just ended.

Greece can have low taxes or strong social benefits. The country can't enjoy both and blaming EU, banks, or IMF is just stupid.

You can't have both.

So either taxes rise or benefits come down.'
If it doesn't happen now it will happen after financial collapse, bankruptcy, and expulsion from EU.
Either way it IS happening.

[Hannah Bell]

111. since the majority of the income is in the hands of the few, you're full of it, even if

"everybody" is cheating to the max.

but good to know which side *you're* on.

[Statistical]

112. Honesly I am shorting the Euro the longer all this nonesense goes on the better it is for me.

However realistically taxes will need to go up and expenses will need to go down or Greece will go bankrupt.
hich would utterly tank the Euro (once again great news for me but horrible news for the Greeks).

[Hannah Bell]

61. if people aren't paying their taxes, maybe the government should go after *those* people,

instead of hiking sales taxes & removing services.

but what do you want to bet, they still *won't*.

1/3 of greeks are at or below poverty level.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=40033

[Nye Bevan]

63. Of course the surveys would say that many Greeks are poor

Most of them hugely under-report their income to minimize their taxes.

[Hannah Bell]

68. 11% unemployment.

Poverty threatens 21% of Greek population

Poverty is one of the most basic problems Greece faces today. According to European Commission data, 21% of our fellow-citizens (2.2 million people) survive on an income below the threshold of 60% of national median income.

Greece and Ireland have the highest poverty rate in the 15-member EU, while Sweden has the lowest at 9%. It is estimated that there are over 70 million people at risk of poverty in Europe.

In Greece, the percentage of the population at risk of poverty is 20% with EU funding, rising to 23% without it.

33% of poor people in Greece are over 65, as pensioners are one of the social groups (along with single-parent families, the unemployed, immigrants and young people) which suffer most from low income and high cost of living.

In Greece, a single-member household is considered to be at risk of poverty when annual income does not exceed € 4,264 (an unacceptably low amount considering realistic estimates of the cost of living in Greece), asagainst € 9,455 in Germany and 13,863 in Luxemburg. The average in the 15-member EU is € 8.319. For a household of four, the amount rises to € 8.955 as against € 19,855 in Germany and € 17,469 in the 15-member EU.

At first place in the social inequality stakes are the regions of Epirus, with 37% of the population living below the poverty threshold, Central Greece with 32%, and the Peloponnese and Western Greece with 31%.

Although there has been significant economic development in Greece in the past 30 years, groups at risk of poverty have not kept up, as only “20.4% of increased consumption benefited the poor, while 79.6% went to the privileged”. One in three citizens often cannot pay the rent or loan instalments on time, eat meat or fish every other day or afford sufficient heating at home.

http://www.cretegazette.com/2007-11/greece-poverty.php

[Nye Bevan]

71. Again, so many Greeks lie about their incomes to avoid tax

So why should we believe any unemployment or poverty figures? Many of those 16,000 Athens residents who lied about owning a swimming pool to save on taxes probably also claim to be poor or unemployed, when they are simply working for cash.

[blindpig]

79. Why should we believe the bankers?

Also, yer average Joe Blow does not generally own an in-ground pool, that is a petit bourgeoisie affectation.

Fuck the banks, expropriate them.

[Nye Bevan]

82. When did I mention the "bankers"? (nt)

[blindpig]

113. Who is demanding the austerity measures? n/t

[Statistical]

69. NOBODY IS PAYING TAXES.

Nobody. At least not full amount.

Income tax is based on declared income. No payroll deductions.
End of year you declare your income and pay a % of that. Well crazy thing nobody declares true income. Make $50,000 a year just declare $40,000 or $20,000 or hell $12,000. $12,000 in "income" pays a lot less taxes than $50,000.
Now who could imagine such a system would fail?

So you have a govt offering massive increases to benefit programs and at the same time citizens paying 1/2, 1/3, 1/10th the proper level of taxes. When govt threatened to increase "tax compliance" guess what...... riots. The Greeks simply are socialist teparty members. Even more insane than your normal teparty member. They want all the benefits of a complex social safety net with none of the cost. It will magically pay for itself somehow.

Without austerity package (which isn't popular in German - German taxpayers having to pay for non tax paying Greeks) then Greece defaults, gets kicked out of the EU and ...... DRUMROLL ......

STILL HAS TO MAKE MASSIVE CUTS IN SPENDING AND RAISE TAXES!

[Hannah Bell]

70. BULLSHIT PROPAGANDA.

[Nye Bevan]

73. Then you should contact the New York Times Public Editor

and complain about their story.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html

I assume you have been to Greece and done your own research whose results contradict those of the Times?

[Hannah Bell]

86. yes, i've been to greece, & know someone who's lived there for 10 years, married to a greek.

as for contacting the nyt, lol, the propaganda arm of finance capital.

[Statistical]

74. Wow what a rebuttal.

Personally I am strongly short the Euro (since January).
So the longer this nonesense keeps up the more it helps my retirement.

The worst thing that could happen for those shorting the Euro would be for the violent protests to die down and budget cuts made.

If that happened I could cover that day. Simply not worth the risk.

The reality is we could see Euro at parity before we see it reach all time high again.

In the end Greece will cut expenses and raise taxes.
If the default on their debt and are expelled from EU nobody will lend them money.
When nobody will lend you money you have a defacto balance budget.

The only question is how Greece gets there and it doesn't look like they are taking the easy road.

[girl gone mad]

130. How would collecting more taxes solve the problem?

The government would simply be siphoning more money out of the private sector, which means less spending, less debt purchases, less private investment and capital creation - all things which would only strengthen the imbalance at the heart of the matter.

Japan has much deeper deficits, yet they avoid insolvency issues.

Blaming weak tax revenue collections or fat government pensions, etc. is an extremely superficial means of interpreting the situation. At fault are much deeper issues having to do with structural weaknesses in the EMU monetary system.

Even Germans blaming the Greeks for taking on too much debt would be about as foolish as the Chinese attacking us for our debt. These are mutually beneficial relationships. China is as desperate for our paper as we are for their cheap plastic doo-dads. Greece played it's role well and most of Europe derived benefit.

[blindpig]

48. Well, why should the owners be able to live like that ...

and not the workers? What makes them so fucking special?

[Hannah Bell]

55. oh, god, the old "those fat cats! they have it toooo good" routine.

speaking as someone who doesn't make 10 gazillion dollars or get bailed out by taxpayers every time he cuts his finger or filches from the public purse, i find it hard to work up any sympathy FOR THE FUCKING BANKSTERS.

your routine is stale.

[Nye Bevan]

66. Did you reply to the wrong post? I never mentioned the "fucking banksters". (nt)

[Hannah Bell]

95. you don't have to when their script flows from your lips.

[killbotfactory]

58. The 14 months pay a year is a raise called by a different name.

One that makes it look like greek workers are getting something for nothing.

[Statistical]

60. Yeah a 16% pay raise when country is in economic crisis.

Even worse the citizens receiving the pay raise lie about income to avoid paying taxes the very same taxes which are needed to fund the 16% pay raise.

It is utterly crazy to think that might not be sustainable. Tax revenue declining + expenses rising. Yup we can keep doing that forever.

[Hannah Bell]

64. “Prices are not far from those in the UK, but here people earn less than 1,000 euros a month”

http://observers.france24.com/en/content/20091210-we-pay-uk-prices-but-were-paid-Greek-wages

[killbotfactory]

76. I'm pretty sure they got those raises long before the crisis erupted

It's a repeat of the "Unions are driving wages up! They are making 70,000 dollars a year for doing nothing! And then they drive home in their limo and eat lobster every night!" that we hear about a company is run into the ground by incompetent or malicious upper management.

But it's nice to see people begrudge every penny a worker makes.

Solidarity seems to be non-existent in the US.

[Hannah Bell]

87. exactly. the propagandists only have one story: those workers have it too good! it's all their

fault! they're stealing from you lower-paid, worse-off workers! they're stealing from you better-paid, more diligent workers!

[girl gone mad]

136. No American should be lecturing Greece about their government spending.

Unlike the USA, Greece has actually practiced some restraint in recent years.

This crisis is a direct result of being chained to a fixed currency and suffering under draconian neo-liberal fiscal rules.

[Greyhound]

101. So, because you are a sucker, everybody should be required to allow their

product to be stolen by parasites?

[malaise]

18. 100% correct

The market is about to learn that the world's people refuse to pay for the madness of the market, the plutocrats and the politicians. Fair play or no play.

[laughingliberal]

22. +1 nt

[Statistical]

19. Not even close.

Even if all Greece debt (since beginning of the country) were to vanish tomorrow with no penalty their primary deficit is 8.5%.
Primary deficit is spending (minus interest & principle) minus revenue.

So the "austerity measures" are simply common sense.

If Greece goes bankrupt they WILL STILL HAVE TO CUT SPENDING & RAISE TAXES.

You can't keep running 8.5% primary deficits forever.

[JCMach1]

30. the IMF is rarely related to anything involving 'common sense'

when I hear that acronym I am more apt to think 'common criminal'.

Can you even tell me which countries in Europe ARE balancing their budgets at the moment?

You are right in one sense... this crisis has exposed the Achilles heel of the EU. The Union part is only good as long as things are going well.

That, and no matter what happens now... even a declaration of bankruptcy (i.e. default) would lead to recession and poverty likely for a generation...

Well, at least the rest of the EU will have a cheap vacation spot whatever the outcome.

[muriel_volestrangler]

123. Where's that figure come from?

DU is the first place I've seen it, but it's been quoted twice in this thread.

[TheKentuckian]

54. Corporate raiders or the Greek people??? What side to be on????

I'm down with a Big Fat Greek Protest and may it spread to all free people around the globe.

THROW OFF THE PREDATOR CLASS AND THEIR CORPORATE GLOBALIST WORLD ORDER!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Statistical]

59. Even with no debt Greece STILL have a 8.5% deficit.

Thus spending must be cut and revenue (taxes) must be raised. Pretty simple concept.

Expenses > Revenue = Insolvency.
Decades of insolvency lead to bankruptcy.

[Silent3]

65. Numbers don't matter.

Rage is what matters, and cartoon-clear distinctions between who the Good Guys are and who the Bad Guys are.

[Hannah Bell]

90. those numbers *don't* matter. there's nothing inherently problematic about an "8.5% deficit".

but there *is* something inherently problematic about turning the screws on ordinary people to pay off financiers.

[Statistical]

96. Correction. Greece has a 13% deficit.

The 8.5% is excluding all principle repayment & interest.

If all of Greece debt disapeared (forgiven by the debt fairy) they would STILL have an 8.5% deficit.

Total deficit is 13%. Utterly unsustainable.
Spending must come down. Taxation must go up.

It will happen one way or the other. Bankruptcy, violence, explusion from EU, political instability. Even then they will be facing massive reduction in expenses and need to massively increase revenue.

[Hannah Bell]

114. blah, blah, blah.

http://www.odiousdebts.org/odiousdebts/index.cfm?DSP=subcontent&AreaID=3

[Statistical]

115. So even if we pretend that 100% of Greece debt is odious and it is gone tomorrow ...

Poof forgiven and with no consequences (which is a pipe dream) but for the sake of argument lets say that happens.

Greece non-debt deficit is 8.5% So that means either an 8.5% reduction in expenses or an 8.5% increase in taxation or some combination.
So taxes are still going up and spending is still going down. To pretend otherwise (like Greek mob) is silly.

[Hannah Bell]

117. you're supporting putting the screws to the powerless to pay off the powerful.

dress it up however you like.

[Statistical]

120. No it is called reality.

If 100% of Greece debt was forgiven then it is unlikely they would be able to borrow a wooden nickle from anyone.

Thus even if 100% of debt is erased Greece still has an 8.5% deficit and would need to cut spending and raise taxes.
That is the reality of the situation. A reality you just want to brush aside as inconvenient.

Greece WILL cut spending and raise taxes eventually.

The only question is when they do it will they still be part of the EU with a growing economy or expelled and in financial crisis and political coup?

Either way if you can't borrow any more and your expenses are 8.5% greater than your revenue one of them has to give.

Greece doesn't even have the method of last resort among desperate regimes: inflation. They can't inflate their way out of the problem because they have no control over the value of Euro. Well maybe that isn't ecactly true the turmoil has sank the Euro a good 10% this year.

[Hannah Bell]

134. "reality" = bow down to your bankster masters

[Silent3]

98. Even if you were to show those evil financiers what's what...

...by nullify all debt, how would you sustain the ongoing budget imbalance going forward? Get mad at it?

[Statistical]

104. Magic.

It is a point I brought up a couple times but gets ignored because it doesn't fit the meme.

Say Greece completely defaults on its debts (doesn't pay a single penny going forward).
Also say it could do that with no consequence to its economy other than nobody would be stupid enough to loan them a nickle.

At the end of the day Greece STILL has an 8.5% budget shortfall and no ability to borrow future money.
So what happens..... TAXES GO UP and SPENDING GOES DOWN. Exactly what the Austerity package requires.

Actually the Austerity package requires a deficit reduction to only 3% of GDP. Currently Greece is running a deficit that is 13% of GDP so going cold turkey (default on all debt) would require an even larger reduction in spending.

Deficit that is 13% of GDP is utterly unsustainable.

[William Z. Foster]

141. the MEME?????

You dare to call expressions of working class solidarity a MEME?

[Nye Bevan]

103. Let's say your take-home pay is $4000 per month.

And each month you spend $4340. Every month, year after year. Do see why this might be problematic? Perhaps you would be OK for a few months, max out your credit cards, borrow from relatives, etc., but do you see how eventually you would have a real problem?

[girl gone mad]

138. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Countries do not operate their budgets same way a family does.

I'm honestly surprised by the lack of knowledge of monetary theory on display in this thread.

[William Z. Foster]

142. we get that from the right wingers all the time

Can't believe I am reading it here.

That analogy is a lie.

Here is that analogy from a point of view other than the right wing point of view:

Let's say you produce the equivalent in goods or services of $4,000 a year and your expenses are $2,000 a year. But between you and your pay is an investor or banker, and you only get $1800 for your work. So you are short $200, and that same investor or banker now demands that you go on an austerity program, and blames you and calls you irresponsible. Meanwhile you can't help noticing that it is the same investors and bankers profiting from the things you need to survive.

That revised analogy is consistent with any and all political positions other than the extreme right wing pro-ruling class position.

[Nye Bevan]

75. What do "corporate raiders" have to do with this issue? (nt)

[TheKentuckian]

85. Who do you think is behind these specifically demanded measures?

It's not balance your budget but rather balance your budget this way.

If you think their is an issue anywhere that corporate raiders aren't at least neck deep in then you are deluded. Follow the money, see who profited, and and you'll find those responsible. The same hacks who are running us into the ground for their own enrichment.

[MellowDem]

119. The problem is the Greek government....

and who elects them? The Greek people. So the problem is the Greek people.

[JVS]

62. Wait! Aren't these investors the same ones who have been shorting investment in Greece...

and making the circumstances worse?

[killbotfactory]

77. Nevermind all that corrupt capitalism nonsense

Did you know that greeks get paid 14 months a year and don't pay taxes?!?! Man, that really pisses me off to no end. Doesn't that piss you off?

I don't know how much that actually amounts to, or if it's out of line with what everyone else on earth gets paid, but it certainly makes me think less of the people protesting and inclined to completely disregard their grievances!!!!111one!!

Put the screws to 'em!

[Nye Bevan]

78. Hey, please leave the Greek people alone.

My boss just agreed to pay me *16* months salary for every year I work, and says I can retire at 50 with full pension and benefits. And I have cut a special deal with the IRS to exempt me from taxation for life.

So those poor Greeks with 14 months of salary per year who don't pay their income taxes and get to retire at 54 don't have such a great deal after all.

[killbotfactory]

88. My father in law is part of union and is set to retire at 55!

And he gets bonuses and a perdium! What a slacker!

Everyone should work until they keel over and die or are crippled, it's the only way to be fair.

[Nye Bevan]

94. Good for him.

My guess is that he played by the rules and paid his taxes, and that because of his and his co-workers' hard work his company can afford to be so generous.

I hope he enjoys his well-deserved retirement.

[killbotfactory]

100. It's because he's part of a union

If he wasn't, he would have been dead or crippled long before retirement.

Either way, he and people like him will be the example held up to take the blame if the management ever runs the company into the ground. Just like they've done recently with the GM workers, the coal miners, and now the greek public workers.

[Statistical]

106. Did he also massively cheat on his taxes for last decade and get a 16% pay raise in a recession.

Did he riot when people told him that he has to start paying union dues to support that good job.

If so then the analogy with Greece might be correct.

[killbotfactory]

124. As these strikes show, the public at large has little actual power

If people weren't paying taxes they were either ridiculously high, or not enforced, or both. I can guarantee it was in the interests of the rich and powerful to let tax evasion slide while they cooked the books for the public.

If the government was misrepresenting it's revenue, which it was for years, it is not unreasonable that people would get and demand raises. They were under a false impression created by the people who have the actual power.

[Nye Bevan]

109. That's how it's supposed to work.

Sounds like a good union. They negotiated bonuses and benefits which while generous would not drive the company into bankruptcy. People playing by the rules, treating each other fairly, and everyone living within their means. Not like Greece in other words.

[Blue_Tires]

116. ttt

[gravity]

122. The markets are antsy over a second global financial crisis

They could care less about revolutions, as long as they can pay their off their debts.

If investors start losing confidence in other European countries to pay off their debts, it could trigger other nations to go under creating an even bigger crisis, similar to what happened in the US.

[TK421]

125. Where is Zeus when you need him?

[Imajika]

131. There is no revolution...

...there is only a minority of the Greek people acting out like spoiled children throwing a temper tantrum.

The Greeks over spent, don't pay their taxes, have more services than they can afford, etc, etc.

When you go pleading for help from others, you may not get the terms you like. Beggars can't be choosers.

It is either this IMF/EU bailout or Greece goes belly up. The tax increases and service cuts are going to happen either way.

After seeing some of the rioting today, I can see why the Germans were so reluctant to offer aid.

[Odin2005]

137. I SUPPORT THE GREEKS! Crush the Corporatists!

And all the corporatist apologists in this thread can go to Hell!!!