Facebook argument about Obama - help me prove her wrong..

[Hawkeye-X]

The Supreme Court never heard the case. They threw it out. It was never put before congress. It was never challenged, because if it was proven that he was not a natural born citizen, the whole congress (Republicans and Democrats) would look like a bunch of idiots. Our election system has a major hole in it. A person does not have prove they are a natural born citizen until AFTER they have won the election by handing over their passport to the current Vice President. By that point it is too late. Does either side have any desire to tell the 51% of the Americans that voted for Obama that he can't be the President, and oops, sorry, we should have caught this before his name was put on any ballots. Of course not.

The law as it currently stands says that each individual state is required to look into the legitimacy of any candidate that wants to be put on a ballot. All 50 states don't do that. They take the word of the individual political parties. Basically, everybody thinks that everybody else is checking to the legality of the candidates, but in reality nobody is.

But the reality of the situation is going to be that that "bug" in our election system is not going to be "fixed" until after Obama is out of office, so there will be no chance of any law changes having any impact on Obama. In other words, the regular citizens are not going to know the real truth until 50 years into the future when the records can be made public. Even then we may not learn the truth until Obama dies, in which case, a majority of us will also be dead.... See More

The bottom line is that Obama's status is irrelevant at this point. The issue is preventing this "doubt" from ever happening again. There should be no doubt. The fact that I have doubt is what the problem is.

And Obama's stutus is not why I have a problem with Obama. My problem has to do with the fact that I don't believe in socialism. Universal healthcare, student loans, car company takeovers, finance system takeovers ... Too much government is areas that the government does not belong in.

---

My first response:

Melissa: Do you even know what socialism means? If you don't like socialism, then you shouldn't be outside walking on social sidewalks, driving on social roads, eating from socialism-approved meats. If you're on Medicare, rip it up, because that's socialist health care, or walking around the socialist park. Obama did not take over the car companies... See More - they loaned the socialist money, and got repaid very rapidly (look at GM - it recently paid off its loan a few days ago). Obama ACTUALLY lowered taxes for 95% of the middle class Americans - check your tax bill for this year.

Did you know, under Bush, that federal government grew exponentially (Think Homeland Security), ignored the August 26th PDB regarding the 9/11 attacks, started a very illegal war and gave away money to the uberwealthy by raising taxes on the back of the middle class and the poor? I'm very sorry for you, Melissa, but you're in the wrong end of the argument. A little Google research easily disproves your theories. Did you even know that Bush took out the surplus that Clinton left the US Government and made a very huge deficit when Bush left office? Did you know that Bush made NO net job creations in his entire 8 years in the office?

Back to Obama's status - are you referring to the nutcase Orly Taitz's cases against Obama? If so, then understand that Orly lost all of her cases, because it's all been dismissed with prejudice, and she was also sanctioned $20,000 for frivolous cases. It's all public information.

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I'd like to continue to prove her dead wrong.

[Stevenmarc]

1. Just tell her that she's the Cognitive Dissonance poster child.

It's better she knows her problem before you waste anymore time dealing with someone that does not live in a fact based reality.

[yodoobo]

2. Just a note.

The government DID take over GM.

In fact the government still owns a majority share of GM.

GM did pay back a loan to the government, but the majority shareholder is still the US government. (i.e. the government paid itself back).

as for all the birth certificate non-sense. There is no sense in arguing. Those people won't listen to sense.

Obama's birth certificate has been seen by everyone in government that needs to see it.

[WeDidIt]

3. Point her to factcheck.org

The birth certificate is real. It was presented. It is prima facie evidence to the fact of birth in any court in the land. anybody who dismisses the birth certificate is a nut case.

[Solomon]

4. Jeee Zuz Christ! Why bother going through all that.

Didn't Obama produce a birth certificate? And didn't Hawaii certify that it's valid?

Why argue anything else? You'd "like to continue to prove her wrong?"

You've already lost because you're playing on her ground.

[pipi_k]

10. That's about the size of it, really...

the whole thing is so friggen stupid that it doesn't even deserve discussion.

I don't know why people continue to validate idiotic issues by arguing about them with idiots.

:shrug:


PS to add...

whenever I'm faced with someone who wants to discuss or believe something that's just totally stupid, my reply is usually, "Yep, OK...whatever you say..." and then walk away. Because argument isn't going to change their minds.

[WeDidIt]

5. One more note, eligibility for the office of president is up to the Congress

The Congress is solely responsible for the results of a presidential election. No state in the union has the power to question any candidate''s eligibility. The Constitution explicitly delegates that responsibility to the Congress.

If your friend does not like that fact, inform her she must amend the constitution to alter the fact that the only governmental body within the United States that has constitutional authority to question the eligibility of any candidate for president is the Congress. Explain that this is an important part of the checks and balances within our government.

[zipplewrath]

6. Hopeless cause.

She doesn't know how to "make an argument" so she isn't going to understand you refuting her points. She's made her decisions, and it wasn't based upon anything "refutable". That basically puts it within the realm of "faith" and you can no sooner talk her out of this than you can talk someone out of believing in God.

Even worse, she probably barely knows what she is saying. She's parroting the words of someone else. Just ask her for some depth on any one of those "...areas that that the government does not belong in.". She probably doesn't understand the history of them at all, much less whether the government has constitutional authority to "be in them". Here's one simple question you can ask that she assuredly doesn't know how to answer.

How does one determine if there is "too much government" and in what areas governments should be involved?

She won't be able to give you any answer that is consistent with her views on a wide variety of issues.

[atreides1]

7. Or

If she still doesn't get it, find another friend. I had the same problem, she kept throwing "socialism" in my face.

I finally told her that if that's the case she should stop using the mass transit system, home school her children, and admit the fact that she was about as Christian as an atheist. Needless to say that last one wasn't well received, and by that time I really didn't give a shit.

I told her there was no way we could remain friends because I don't like hypocrites. I disconnected and haven't looked back since.

You might have to do the same thing. Good luck, whatever you decide.

[WeDidIt]

8. Why NO Court in the United States has jurisdiction over presidential eligibility

Amendment XII

The electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;--The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;--the person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.* The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

* Date for this section changed to January 20 via Amendment XX.

Only the Congress can determine the eligibility of the candidates. The states only determine the electors. The Congress validates the ballots of the electors and certifies the election.

So the only power the states have is to question the eligibility of the electors.

[Dr Morbius]

9. There are newspaper reports of Obama's birth in Hawaii in 1961.

The state of Hawaii has certified Obama's birth in Hawaii. There's absolutely no doubt Obama was born there to an objective observer.

This woman has "doubts" because she wants to have doubts. She clings to them, and she needs to ask herself why.

[AnArmyVeteran]

17. The truth is to a right winger, as oil is to water. They don't mix and never will...

Right wingers are consumed by hatred, racism, fear and rage. They love conflict. No amount of truthful information will ever be accepted by them. They listen to the dishonest opinion on talk radio and Fox News and believe it is 'news' and the 'truth'. They are too lazy to do fact checks, and if they do make an 'effort' they only go to right wing sites to validate their already false views. And they have a built in barrier to the truth by going along with that ridiculous notion that the media is liberal. The media is mostly corporate owned and all they care about is their bottom lines. And because all they care about is making money they couldn't care less about truth or facts.

Right wingers have whined about the media being liberal for thirty years. They seem to like playing the victimization role. But if what they say is true then why haven't they been proactive and changed the system they condemn? When I hear a right winger make that claim I tell them that by saying the media is liberal they are admitting conservatives aren't bright enough to get journalism degrees, jobs in the media or university professors teaching media related courses. Either they are too stupid to become a writer or too lazy. But their entire thought process depends on there being a big bad 'liberal media' so they can tune out everything but right wing sources guaranteeing they will remain ignorant.

[ixion]

11. You're wasting your time arguing with birthers

facts have no bearing on their opinion.

[sarge43]

12. Hawkeye, it's not up to you to prove her wrong.

The burden of proof is in her court. Don't fall for that trick. When she presents valid evidence, then you can counter. Don't hold your breath.

By the way, Barrack Obama's mother was a US citizen. By law, he is a natural born US citizen. Where he was born wouldn't matter anymore than it matters with John McCain. For the record, the USC does not read "native" born citizen; it's natural born, ie from moment of birth. USC Article II, Sec 1(4).

[Frustratedlady]

13. While you have her ear, ask her a couple questions for me.

Why do they expound their fear of government takeover of the financial segment of our society with the full knowledge that the banks/Wall Street are robbing us blind? She must not have any money in the game.

Why are they content to allow insurance and pharmaceutical companies the freedom to assess huge prices for their products while denying those most in need the coverage they paid for? She must not have an existing condition, other than ignorance.

I can not, for the life of me, understand why these people are screaming at Obama when they are being taken by the robber barons. Don't they have a mind of their own?

[jillan]

14. I would just ask her if she really wanted to see the US stop producing cars and let Europe and Japan

be the world leaders in the car manufacturing industry? Does she realize how many more US jobs would have been lost? The car industry affects steel workers, rubber industry, parts manufactures, the Auto Zone that's in every city...and more. And to top it off - look at how profitable US Car manufactures have become. I saw a poll yesterday on some Sunday show that showed for the first time in decades people view AMERICAN made cars as the safest over the other countries. We are going to be back on top again. By Obama bailing out the car industry - he saved and created countless number of jobs.

The supreme court never heard the case because they laughed at it.

I have a right-winger in my life, and whenever he starts up with me I ask him to move out of the country, because Obama won fair and square, and then I ask him where he wants to go. So fun. Canada? But they have socialized medicine, there are walk in clinics all over that country that their taxpayers pay for. There isn't a developed country that doesn't have socialism in one form or another...they can't answer.

Somewhere on the internet is a pledge form for right wing nutjobs, created by a duer, that they can sign that totally takes them out of all social programs - fire, police, medicare, soc security, and everything under the sun. I don't have time to find it, but it would be the perfect thing to send to her to shut her up!

Good luck - I feel for you...I know what it's like.

[southernyankeebelle]

15. These birthers don't believe anything you say. Hawaii could get

the governor to bring the original birth certificate out of the vault in front of the national media and you will still have people saying its a lie. Plus you could bring the doctor and nursing staff who delivered Obama and they still wouldn't believe it. Nothing you say will change their minds. These people are nothing but racists. Nothing will change that.

[AnArmyVeteran]

19. Even if his birth was videoed on the steps of Hawaii's capital building rightwingers would reject it

[sinkingfeeling]

16. First demand she post her birth certificate and then find something on it that's 'fishy'.

[Arkana]

18. That absolutely is not true.

To get on the ballot nationally Obama would have been background-checked by the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, and pretty much every other organization that does these kinds of things--because if he's going to be President they want to make sure he ISN'T a Kenyan usurper terrorist sympathizer or whatever.

Your friend's a moron if she honestly believes Obama just hoodwinked all those intelligence agencies at once.

[mopinko]

20. say what?

none of those agencies has any authority to have anything to do with our electoral process. no such investigation happened.

which is not to say that i agree with the birther lunatics.

[Arkana]

21. You honestly don't think all the intelligence agencies opened files on Obama the minute he rose

to national prominence?

[mopinko]

26. by what mechanism would the cia disqualify a candidate for any office?

and with what probable cause would the fbi spy on a sitting senator? to do what with the information?

[progressoid]

22. She's a lost cause. Just un-friend her and save some of your sanity.

[Juneboarder]

24. +1000

I've had to de-friend some folks from my FB account for pure sanity purposes myself. It's unbelievable what lies float around, and how quick people are to believe.

Sad, sad, sad...

[unblock]

23. DEMOCRATS lack the power and immorality to get an illegitimate person into the oval office.

who does she think we are, REPUBLICANS???

[Loki]

25. Ask her for her so called "long form birth certificate"

I have requested copies for my daughter and grandson recently from the state of Missouri and they both look just like the copy of Obama's from Hawaii. I have no fucking clue where mine is, all I have is some small, what appears to be mimeographed copy of my certificate with an official seal. What I received from Missouri is all they give. If I would request one, it would be that same thing. I don't have any idea what these idiots are talking about. The hospital my husband was born in no longer exists in Kansas City, so where would he get a copy of his birth certificate.........obviously from the same place the office that deals with public records. According to the "birthers" none of my family could prove that we were born in Missouri. They are just fucking nuts.

[donquijoterocket]

27. same objection here

I've noticed that so many of these folks objecting to "socialism" seem to have no idea of what actually constitutes socialism. You could provide a mountain of evidence up to, and including, the "long form" birth certificate these birfers are always yammering about and you'd not change this mind in the slightest. I applaud and appreciate your persistence in trying to demonstrate the errors in her thinking and wish you luck.

[Evasporque]

28. De-friend works awesome on right wing wackos on facebook.

I am just saying...