Timothy McVeigh's IQ was..........

[Stanchetalarooni]

126

[lame54]

1. was that metric or british?

[southpaw]

2. So

I'm sure Osama Bin Laden has a pretty high IQ as well. Doesn't make him any less a terrorist.

[Cronus Protagonist]

3. Yeah, and what was his shoe size?

We need to know for the TSA screenings at airports. We must make sure his type of terrorism never happens again.

[Oregone]

27. Do you want the measurement to include the fuse or not?

[Cronus Protagonist]

62. lol n/t

[ShortnFiery]

4. I wish we were not in such an hurry to execute him. We could have learned more about

what made him tick. Insight into what set him toward the dark side. :(

[southpaw]

5. +1

[Wapsie B]

6. But more importantly I wonder if he's not been made a martyr for the rwing loonies.

[Puregonzo1188]

7. +1

[kestrel91316]

9. HE was the one in a hurry to be executed. Remember how he refused to file any appeals?

He hoped to be seen as a martyr, lol.

[lame54]

10. it seems to be working

[Jim Sagle]

17. Even here.

:wtf:

[Oregone]

32. Huh, how so?

You think anyone on DU sees him as anything close to a martyr?

Im going out on a limb and calling that a ridiculous claim until you present any proof (though, there were a few that thought IRS plane bomber dude was something special, but then again, he didn't kill any kids)

[Jim Sagle]

52. If not, why this pointless thread?

[Oregone]

58. Thats a fail

This thread isn't about vieing him as a martyr as far as any sane person can tell.

An IQ factoid isn't relevant to someone's martry status. Its just a factoid to be discussed as people see fit

[Jim Sagle]

60. A factoid without a point unless the point is to whitewash McVeigh.

[Oregone]

61. The same type of odd factoids exist about Hitler

Now that was an odd dude. Knowing details about him doesn't make him a martyr, but rather, an ecentric psychopath

[Jim Sagle]

63. It's still a factoid without a point, especially when it offers nothing FOR General Discussion.

[Oregone]

64. Yes, without a point. Far from evidence of any perception he is a martyr

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Jim Sagle]

69. Or, in this case, a piece of shit.

[Brickbat]

12. Agreed.

[cali]

13. I wish we hadn't executed him period, but they had 4 years to study him.

[superduperfarleft]

18. His execution was what actually turned me against the death penalty.

Not because I didn't think he was a scumbag that should've been buried under the jail, but because of the bloodthirsty reaction of the crowd.

[Oregone]

34. Crowds are just groups of stupid fallible humans

Of course they are bloodthirsty. It should not shock anyone anymore.

But governments...well, they are supposed to be so much more. It is man's bloodthirsty nature that stands for why governments and justice exist (The Oresteia by Aeschylus explores this).


I can imagine hundreds of scenarios in my personal life where I would bring hell down upon someone, and in each case, I would never agree with the government systematically doing so.

[seabeyond]

8. above average, but not a big deal. he sounded smart enough... but i have a brother at 186

and you couldnt meet a person with a more fucked up life than him.

[Oregone]

26. Yep, and many people with above average intelligence have "issues"

Social, mental, etc, you name it. Many are like fitting squar pegs into round holes, which causes perpetual internal friction & frustration.

Some can assimilate into the right environment.

Some just smoke weed and pretend they are stupid to get by.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

57. Generalize much?

People with above average IQs have no more problems than anyone else, except of course for generalizations like this.

[Oregone]

59. As much as I can

[pinboy3niner]

11. Just proves that The Stupid . . .

does not discriminate . . .

[MilesColtrane]

14. But, he was only following the orders of Osama vos Savant.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. How much did he weigh?

[blogslut]

16. What is the relevance of his IQ?

I really don't see why it matters. If his IQ was low to the point where he was unable to discern right from wrong then I can see where it would matter. If he were insane to the point where he was unable to discern right from wrong, then that would matter. The fact that he had an above-average intelligence quotient means he knew what he was doing and nothing more.

I would like to know where you got that figure though.

[Dogtown]

20. It's certainly relevant.

As in all "Us vs Them" confrontations, we tend to dehumanize the other side. Part of that is to laugh at their more uneducated (and most vocal) members.

We must realize, however, that these people are *not* stupid, and can do us very serious harm when we underestimate them.

[blogslut]

23. I'm not convinced

I'm not convinced that knowing McVeigh's level of intelligence humanizes him. Clever people do harm. Stupid people do harm. The question shouldn't be about intelligence. It should be more about what leads someone to do terrible things. Why is it that one person can grow up in conditions of horrible abuse and turn out to be a kind and thoughtful adult, while another can come from a loving home and become a monster?

[Dogtown]

48. I don't wish to "humanize" McVeigh.

He was a monster.

I don't think I was entirely clear. Our mistake is not in 'dehumanizing' the opposition, that is human nature. Our mistake is in considering them "less" than us.

McVeigh was smart. Smart enough to hurt us, smart enough to make his plan work.

Many on the other side are smart, and very dangerous. If we underestimate them as "lesser" rather than, say, "crazier" we open ourselves to further attacks.


I can't answer your last question. I've fought my own demons and won. Others don't or can't.

[Johonny]

30. But if IQ is not a particularly meaningful number then

why is it relevant? IQ is a measure of the correlation of a persons ability to answer certain test questions, not something inside their head. Now reifying IQ scores IS stupid.

[Dogtown]

45. A moot point.

"IQ" is an only indicator, but it *is* an indicator. My post stands: McVeigh was *not* a stupid person. Clearly deranged, but smarter than average, and, undoubtedly, smarter than some of our contributors.

He was, in fact, smart enough to organize (albeit, with the aid of parties named and un-named) a nefarious but workable plan to gain attention to his cause.

Had there been more than minimal popular support for his goals, his act could have been as much a trigger as was Gavrilo Princeps'.


My concern is that "popular" support for that cause is growing, and more acts of domestic terrorism from the Extreme Right *must* be expected.

[Johonny]

65. I know he's not stupid based on who he is and did not some test

The IQ score is pointless to anything. It tells you almost nothing about a person. To quote it as proof someone is not stupid is pointless. So not a moot point. That IQ can be used to determine someones intelligence is though.

[Dogtown]

68. Johonny?

I'm not getting you. IQ tests are an *indicator* of intelligence level. It's not a perfect test, of course. As an indicator, though, it is quite useful.

The relevance of testing procedure is a side issue, though. In this instance a moderately high IQ score indicates McVeigh was somewhat above average intelligence. That indicator is verified by his ability to ensure his "immortality" in history.

The moral of the story: Don't sell the nutters short.

[eShirl]

19. he wasn't a genius, then

like the Unabomber

[havocmom]

56. Recent history has sorta proved the Unibomber had some insights into corporate posioning of USA

While I don't approve the methods, he did seem to grasp where the real threats to America were coming from. ;)

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. Which simply proves that among the crazy right there are those who

are intelligent enough to actually be dangerous.

There are many kinds of intelligence, and IQ only measures one of them. When you combine a high IQ with a low moral intelligence and low social intelligence you can get successful gangsters and terrorists. A great many of our politicians have a high IQ combined with low moral intelligence and high social intelligence - though many more have only middling IQ combined with the others. A few, like Dennis Kucinich, have high IQ and high moral intelligence combined with barely middling social intelligence - he doesn't get re-elected on the strength of his schmoozing but because people like his ideas.

McVeigh's IQ does not surprise me. If he was just average or below he'd have been caught before carrying out his attack. A low social IQ was a benefit to him, as it kept his acquaintances low in numbers, reducing the chance of exposure. Low moral IQ allowed him to justify the murder of hundreds of innocents, even children for his cause.

[Wapsie B]

24. That is so right.

We tend to stereotype all those in the rwing movements as being stupid and incapable of independent thought. All too often someone with a higher degree of academic achievement has a higher value placed on them by others. There's something of a halo effect going on amongst high performers in the classroom, athletic, music, etc... However there are many ways of measuring intelligence in an individual. Formal IQ tests and performance in school are not the end all and be all with regards to measuring skill and abilities.
McVeigh and others in that movement are anything but dumb; far from it in fact.


http://www.thomasarmstrong.com/multiple_intelligences.htm

[Dark]

25. Hell, IIRC, the only reason he got caught was cause he was speeding or some small infraction.

High IQ is rather useful, whether you use it for good or ill.

However, even though intelligence is generally a good thing, without knowledge or wisdom it can be dangerous.

[Marr]

41. Moral, social intelligence? I don't think there's any such thing.

People differ in their personalities, values, ideals, etc. It doesn't mean they're less 'morally intelligent'-- it just means they have a different outlook.

I'd agree that intelligence can vary in terms of spatial ability, or mathematical ability, speech, etc., but morality? I don't think so.

[MilesColtrane]

22. Maybe the Pentagon will make the next Mensa meeting?

[WI_DEM]

28. Which goes to show that being intelligent doesn't always mean making the right decisions.

[LeftinOH]

29. (holds breath)...That's my IQ - after two or three tests, it's always 126;

McVeigh's level of intelligence didn't have anything to do with his actions. Upbringing & environment -and/or a serious chemical imbalance could have had some play in it.

[Oregone]

31. "McVeigh's level of intelligence didn't have anything to do with his actions"

You don't know that.

It could have altered the way he saw the political/social situation. It could have altered how he formed his morality system. It could have enabled him to plan and develop bombs.

Yes, environment has a major impact, but many people are probably exposed to the same conditions he was. His brain did something different with what it is given. In many ways this is a nature vs nuture response, but its undeniable that nature (which determines very much his IQ), has a strong hand in processing and reacting to what nurturing was thrown at him.

More likely, its a unique combination which most certainly included his intelligence (or rather, the way his brain thought).

[dems_rightnow]

33. 1. Who cares?

2. Is there a credible link to such an assertion?

Not that it matters in the slightest.

[Ichingcarpenter]

35. Much lower than mine but

My is lower than the mad Unibomber Ted's but not by much

who cares

I don't

[edbermac]

36. And Hitler was a good dancer.

[slackmaster]

37. And he was a meth head

Fuck him.

[Oregone]

43. Really? I never heard that before

[slackmaster]

54. There was testimony in his trial that Michael and Lori Fortier were meth DEALERS and daily users

It wasn't ever proved that McVeigh was a user, but I think his behavior points strongly toward that possibility.

[ismnotwasm]

38. Well and good

I suppose you'd have to be at least literate to blow up an entire building and murder hundreds of innocents.

[mitchum]

39. He has 30 points on Palin

[Marr]

40. 126 isn't all that unusual.

It's on the high end of normal, but still very normal. Were people here saying McVeigh was an idiot or something?

[devilgrrl]

42. He was so smart that he got caught! WTF is the point to this thread?

:eyes:

[Dogtown]

50. His handlers were smarter.

The timing was all wrong for an incident inciting the popular uprising McVeigh hoped for. His handlers knew that but triggered him anyway, in *exactly* the same way Jihadist suicide bombers wre triggered.

His handlers also planned for him to be caught. They knew he was martyrdom-enthralled and would not disclose any information about them.

The timing was *perfect* for seeding a martyr mythos.

[UndertheOcean]

44. That is quite low.

[dflprincess]

47. No, it's not.

100 is the average IQ.

[UndertheOcean]

51. WOW , the peak is at 100 only .... that explains a lot about society.

Never paid attention to the statistical distribution . I consistently scored in the 140's as a kid .... but having a sister and brother in the 180's gave me the impression that 140 is average.

Explains a lot about why society reacts in an inexplicable way most of the time , indeed.

[Demstud]

66. Not really - nt

[DeschutesRiver]

46. IIRC, the Unibomber had a high IQ score as well. nt

[Vickers]

49. Not high enough to keep the needle away. n/t

[jotsy]

53. The unibomber was leaps and bounds ahead of the proverbial crowd as an intellectual.

Intelligence or lack of it is not the issue, IMO.

The value of life in and of itself can only be measured in how we treat one another, right now that bar keeps getting lowered. In recent weeks, I saw a studio audience react to the idea of themselves as McVeigh wannabes with an enthusiasm that frightened me. Dot they forget what we call people who willingly kill the innocent to make a political point? Does it dawn on them that they are glorifying a terrorist?

[havocmom]

55. Hit and run post that proves nothing

and suggests more about poster than subject....

nice profile too. Enjoy your day.

[Enrique]

67. you win the Tim McVeigh trivia contest

:toast:

[rasputin1952]

70. That puts him in the 80th percentile...

better than average for sure, (average being 100), but he was far from an intellectual giant.

Not that IQ means all that much in certain circumstances. For instance, there is nothing of psychology in the IQ matrix, one can be a socio or psychopath and have a high IQ, fact is, most of those who fit the socio/psychopath criteria are over the average in IQ. Nor is there any measure for social, or "people" skills in the matrix. An IQ "shows" what one is capable of intellectually, and is based on knowledge garnered previously, and how one can apply that knowledge. Someone who has excellent verbal skills, can easily tilt the matrix in their favor, if their math skills are lacking a little, as it is a composite not specific.

I had an uncle who was brilliant mathematically, a chemist by trade, his mind was filled with various formulas and knowledge about how chemicals interacted and what benefits could come from such applications, could he carry on a conversation with the "man on the street, no; he sounded like a fool if he tried to discuss anything but chemistry, physics or other highly technical areas. Talk about the weather for the day, he could tell you how the weather got to what it was for the day, but would bore you to tears while he explained it...and never simply say, "yeah, it's hot and muggy".

McVeigh used what intellect he had to destroy other human beings. Manson, Hitler and a host of others did the same thing, with about the same IQ. It is never about the intelligence of an individual, it is about the how they use what they have, and to what ends. The Unabomber was in the 99th percentile...another highly intelligent individual who used his intellect to kill and maim others.

For the record, I am in the 98th percentile, I cannot fathom harming people without a direct threat to me, my family or friends. I have spent a lifetime on a different track, believing that marshaling my, and others skills to move the nation forward is far more important that seeking nefarious ways to destroy lives. It is all about where you are psychologically...and there is never perfection in that area.

In a nutshell, McVeigh may have more intelligent than the mean, but he was still an idiot...his actions proved that.