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What's Really Going On In Space?

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 10:13 AM
Original message
What's Really Going On In Space?
MUCH of our country's space exploration, for most Americans who chip in with their contributions to our government's budget, is a hobby and a fascination; much more than it's essential or even relevant to the needs and concerns that are their own personal priority for government. It's entertainment at shuttle launch time, and it has been a propagandized race with the Soviets, and China that politicians seem to believe still has merit and should fill us with patriotic pride at our insistence on Cold War-like competition in space over more pragmatic and peaceable cooperation between nations. In many ways, it still is.

That fascination with space exploration and our politicians' exploitation of Americans' willingness to let them spend the money needed to fuel that ambition led the President yesterday to give the go-ahead for the industry's own dream of developing and manufacturing an infrastructure to Mars.

As many like to point out in defense of the tax dollars that fuel the space chase, the percentage of that budget which goes into space exploration is relatively small compared to where the rest of the money is spent. That little blip in the trillion-plus national budget make space exploration a negligible expense in their eyes - save for the trillions of dollars in escalating debt (ironically, much of it to the China), and the miserly way money for our basic needs is apportioned out by Congress.

It was clear in Barack Obama's selection of his NASA chief early in his term that he was giving the nod to those in the aerospace and defense industry who were deeply invested in funding the pursuit of manned space flight. It was a thumbs-up to legislators of both parties with firms and companies in their states connected in some fashion or another to the billions appropriated for missile defense systems, military satellites, propulsion systems, robotics, and every little facet of starry-eyed and enterprising space enthusiasts' wish list that they can manage to convince the American public to fund.

General Charles Bolden, NASA administrator, was a Marine aviator, flew more than 100 combat missions in the Vietnam War, was an astronaut who flew into orbit four times, twice as a shuttle commander. He's also a former aerospace consultant and was director of Aerojet, a NASA contractor supplying propulsion systems and has a contract to build engines for a new astronaut capsule. For several months in 2005, he was a registered lobbyist for the aerospace firm ATK, a company that makes engines for the first stage of a new space rocket under development.

The association of Bolden with the military and his industry ties call into question his ability to objectively determine the course of space exploration. He's doesn't have a scientific-based background, so he's reliant on other 'experts' and technicians with more experience when debating and determining issues of direction and investment. His defense background calls into question his ability to be objective about matters where his office and activity are compromised by defense priorities.

In remarks at the National Space Symposium conference in Colorado Springs this week, Bolden told the audience that the administration's new strategy would "create new research products, businesses, industries and a host of technology and space oriented jobs across our nation and the world." The way funds are allocated to NASA, money is dispersed and mostly hidden throughout the Defense, Energy, and Interior appropriations. The Defense Dept., through their Air Force budget, shoulders a great deal of responsibility for delivering the feed to the industry trough.

Bush's Chief Administrator of NASA for a time, Sean O’Keefe, who just happened to serve as Navy secretary, as well as comptroller and chief financial officer at the Defense Dept., was quoted declaring that NASA and the Pentagon were practically inseparable.

Bruce K. Gagnon, Coordinator of the Global Network against Weapons and Nuclear Power in Space, quotes O’Keefe, who was on a paid advisory board of Northrop Grumman and Raytheon, that it is “imperative that we have a more direct association between the Defense Department and NASA.”

O’Keefe, continues, “Technology has taken us to a point where you really can’t differentiate between that which is purely military in application and whose capabilities are civil and commercial in nature.”

NASA's mission to Mars claims to place a high priority on the search for life beyond Earth. NASA touts recent discoveries on Mars and the moons around Jupiter, which they say indicates that there may be or have been habitable environments on these worlds that supported the development of life.That's the official story.

What I believe is behind the hawking of this space mission (among other considerations like keeping these defense industries on the public dole) is the industries' desire to promote and legitimize new nuclear propulsion technology needed to support such missions. These would be added to a long list of moneymaking boondoggles for the aerospace industry.

NASA, the Department of Defense and the Department of Energy are currently working together to develop the technology base for what they term, Space Nuclear Reactor Power. This program will develop and demonstrate in ground tests the technology required for space reactor power systems from tens of kilowatts to hundreds of kilowatts. The SP-100 nuclear reactor system is to be launched ‘radioactively cold.' When the mission is done, the reactor is intended to be stored in space for hundreds of years. The reactor would would utilize new blends of "recycled" uranium fuel.

The Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a division of the California Institute of Technology, manages the Mars Odyssey mission for NASA's Office of Space Science. Additional science partners are located at the Russian Aviation and Space Agency and at Los Alamos National Laboratory. Lockheed Martin Astronautics, Denver, is the prime contractor for the project to develop and build the orbiter. Mission operations are conducted jointly from Lockheed Martin and JPL.

Included in NASA plans for the nuclear rocket to Mars; a new generation of Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators (RTGs) for interplanetary missions; nuclear-powered robotic Mars rovers to be launched in 2003 and 2009. 136 NASA touts future mining colonies on the Moon, Mars, and asteroids that would be powered by nuclear reactors.

To develop and demonstrate these new nuclear power and propulsion technologies, President Bush's budget proposed $279 million; ($3 billion over five years) for Project Prometheus, which builds on the Nuclear Systems Initiative. Project Prometheus includes the development of the first nuclear-electric space mission, called the Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter. The mission would conduct extensive, in-depth studies of the moons of Jupiter that might harbor subsurface oceans. Most experts believe that only advanced nuclear reactors could provide the hundreds of kilowatts of power the craft would need to get a manned crew there in the time needed to protect them from the degrading effects of space radiation.

Bruce Gagnon writes about an interview on MSNBC's Hardball with Chris Matthews where he heard Sen. Bill Nelson of Florida talking about the plasma rocket that they hope can get astronauts to Mars in just 39 days: (http://space4peace.blogspot.com/2010/04/obama-proposes-mars-missions-of-nuclear.html)

Sen. Nelson mentions former astronaut Franklin Chang-Diaz who is working to develop the plasma rocket. In an interview published in 2009 Chang-Diaz talks about the absolute need for nuclear power in space in order to make the trip to Mars. Here are some excerpts: (http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/a_rocket_for_the_21st_century/)

Seed: We’ve been sending people and machines into space for more than half a century, but we’re still mostly using chemical rockets.

FCD: Well, part of the problem with electric propulsion back then, and to a lesser degree today, is that it’s hard to get enough electricity to power the rocket. Typically, electricity in space comes from sunlight, solar power. That works okay in Earth orbit and other places close to the Sun. But people have to realize sooner or later that, if we’re ever going to explore Mars and beyond, we have to make a commitment to developing high-power electricity sources for space. What we really need is nuclear power to generate electricity in space. If we don’t develop it, we might as well quit, because we’re not going to go very far. Nuclear power is central to any robust and realistic human exploration of space. People don’t really talk about this at NASA. Everybody is still avoiding facing this because of widespread anti-nuclear sentiment (the legacy of the 1997 Cassini crash).


The Prometheus Project is based on an archaic notion that began in the '50's with a space project named Orion. Project Orion was a propulsion system that depended on exploding atomic bombs roughly two hundred feet behind the space vehicle. Orion was developed at the old General Dynamics Corporation, under the guidance of several former Manhattan Project scientists.

In the late 1950's, Freeman Dyson, physicist, educator, and author, joined the Orion Project research team. The project's participants proposed exploding atomic bombs at regular intervals at very short distances behind a specially designed space ship in order to propel it to the Moon and other planets in the Solar System far more quickly and cheaply than with chemical-fuel rockets.

The motto for Orion was, 'Mars by 1965, Saturn by 1970'; hauntingly reminiscent of the administration's line about Project Prometheus exploring Mars and Europa's moons. Orion ran out of money and needed the government's help. The military agreed to take up the project, but only on the condition that it adapt itself to a military purpose. The project was later abandoned because of uncertainty about the safety and efficacy of nuclear energy, and the high cost of the speculative program. Also, because the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty of 1963 outlawed it. (will the new nuclear technology need new testing agreements between nations?)

"Technology must be guided and driven by ethics if it is to do more than provide new toys for the rich," Dyson, 76, said, as he received the Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion 2000. Dyson once commented that, "Project Orion is a monument to those who once believed, or still believe, in turning the power of these weapons into something else."

The Prometheus project was a cynical attempt to commit the nation to Rumsfeld's Star War's nonsense. Bush and Europa's moons; right. The Bush White House wanted you to know that their nuclear space project to Mars would prove new technologies for future NASA missions. Like space-based weaponry. The decision by Bush to withdraw from the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty allowed research beneficial to orbiting space-based lasers as part of a global missile defense shield to resume; orbiting space lasers on permanent space platforms.

Despite that administration and NASA's talk of Europa's moons, the Prometheus Project was intended to pave the way for the original Pentagon plan to mount nuclear reactors on space-based platforms to power their nuclear lasers. And of course, as the Space Command also asserts, ". . . the United States must also have the capability to deny America's adversaries the use of commercial space platforms, for military purposes."

At the military industry conference hosted by the American Enterprise Institute, then-defense policy adviser Richard Perle mused that, "It would be better if we simply handed the money to the defense industry and let them invest it themselves, . . . but Congress likes to control that . . . , but it gives the impression that the merchants of death are unduly licensed."

Perle then made a weak plea for less regulation of arms exports ($140 + billion since 1992), and suggested that export licensing be consolidated into one agency. I wonder who the administration executives will suggest to head that office. Industry lawyers; resumes at the ready! You can hear the regret in his statement. If we would only just give the industry the money they want, no strings attached; they would provide for the nation's defense needs. The industry wants us to believe that they are the best judges of what the next generation's needs are in terms of weaponry. But the existence of these corporations and their new hi-tech boondoggles will not make us anymore secure than the existence of these same executives in our government have kept our sons and daughters from dying in senseless wars.

Is this administration doing enough to separate the ambitions of industry and the Pentagon's military industrial warriors still in place in government and the military leadership from their future space exploration plans? I don't see any evidence of that at all. What I see is the same hard sell of the same sop to the fascinated public about a trip to Mars; paid for by the expansion of the nuclear and aerospace industry at the expense of the more pressing and important needs that our politicians aren't willing to provide funding for out of concerns about the effects of deficit-spending. What's really going on here?
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. Accordig to some here, NOTHING is going on in space.
The Van Allen Belts cause your face to shit Twinkies if you even THINK about getting in a spaceship and exiting Earth's orbit.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I've heard there's cheese enough on the Moon
. . . to end world hunger. Sparkling water, too .. .
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
2. Unrec...
money spent on the research and technology necessary for space exploration is money well spent.

Sid
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meeshrox Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Unrec for same reason...nt
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. To a great degree that's true...BUT...it is also true that the weaponization of space is real
Edited on Fri Apr-16-10 11:24 AM by blm
VERY real. Kerry has warned about it a number of times in the past.

K&R
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. No matter how it's spent or who gets the money?
Public parks are a good thing, but if your city announced that it was going to pay Lockheed Martin a billion dollars a year to build swingsets would you be down with that? Would it really be an argument about the value of parks at that point?
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Why would any city manager pay Lockheed Martin a billion dollars for swingsets?...
You can buy them at the Home Depot for a few hundred dollars.

Decisions about how and where money is spent still have to be made by sensible people.

Sid
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. And you think that's been done in the space program?
The "aerospace industry" consists of military defense contractors. The space program has been used to pour money into their coffers. Do you really think that taking an "any money spent on space is good" approach has ever or will ever lead to sensible spending by defense contractors?
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. NASA has done remarkable things with their relatively tiny budget...
You seem to be conflating defense budgets with NASA budgets.

Sid
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. "Pour money into their coffers".
Really. Space Exploration is rougly 0.5% of federal budget but even that is a misleading stat.

Economic power of a country is GDP. Space exploration is 0.1% of US GDP.

"Pouring money" would be better described as a "tiny sprinkle of money".

Defense spending is roughly 60x NASA budget.
Civilian Aerospace spending (passenger jets, transportation, etc) is roughly 37x NASA budget.
Between those two NASA contribution to Aerospace companies would be best described as a rounding error.

BTW. Obama 2011 budget increases defense spending by 5%. The INCREASE is $33 BILLION. That isn't the spending that is just how much defense spending will INCREASE. NASA budget is $16.8 billion.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. money which goes to support projects at NASA are diffused throughout several budgets
. . . including Defense, Energy, Interior

Most relevant to this Mars project will be the billions needed to develop the nuclear components most scientists believe will be essential to a manned mission. That money is certainly going to be found outside of NASA's operating budget that you seem to believe comprises the totality of the expense for their ambitions.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Prove it. Untiil then it simply is a bogus claim.
NASA has done research on nuclear reactors for decades.
Technically they aren't fission reactor they are RTG. They have always been on budget.

The next rover to Mars has an RTG. It is funded 100% from NASA budget.

Prove NASA expenditures are larger than their budget. Quantify it.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. research money for nukes is also located in the Energy Dept. and Interior appropriations
Edited on Fri Apr-16-10 01:24 PM by bigtree
what about NASA's involvement in defense projects like in the 2009 budget:

Missile Defense $9.4 billion
http://wapedia.mobi/en/National_missile_defense

Space-Based Infrared System $2.3 billion
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Space-Based_Infrared_System

Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle $1.2 billion
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Evolved_Expendable_Launch_Vehicl...

Trident II Ballistic Missile
$1.1 billion

NASA, satellites $3.4-$8.5 billion Between 20% and 50% of NASA's total budget

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Military_budget_of_the_United_States


there's the Air Force Space Command and the Space Warfare Center . . .

AFSPC is the major command providing space forces for the U.S. Space Command and trained ICBM forces for U.S. Strategic Command. AFSPC also supports NORAD with ballistic missile warning information, operates the Space Warfare Center to develop space applications for direct warfighter support, and is responsible for the Department of Defense's ICBM follow-on operational test and evaluation program.

Spacelift operations at the East and West Coast launch bases provide services, facilities and range safety control for the conduct of DOD, National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) and commercial launches. Through the command and control of all DOD satellites, satellite operators provide force-multiplying effects -- continuous global coverage, low vulnerability and autonomous operations. Satellites provide essential in-theater secure communications, weather and navigational data for ground, air and fleet operations, and threat warning. Ground-based radar and Defense Support Program satellites monitor ballistic missile launches around the world to guard against a surprise attack on North America. Space surveillance radars provide information on the location of satellites and space debris for the nation and the world.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/agency/afspc.htm


All of these Defense dept. ambitions in space contain some element of funding for NASA operations to facilitate the missile and weapons support systems.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Everything is small compared to the defense budget
So I guess as long as we spend less on something than we do on defense it's silly to demand accountability. If we take $100 billion and chop it into tiny pieces it's still less than the defense budget, so stop your whining. You make a bright line distinction between money paid to defense contractors for defense spending and money paid to those same companies for "space". The problem is it's all part of the same overall business, with the same companies getting those contracts, with plenty of overlap. I think the concern is that people don't trust the military industrial complex to spend our money wisely and calling it science doesn't make those who are getting the money any more trustworthy. If we were really talking about funding government scientists I would be fine with that. That's never really been what NASA has been about.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. NASA budget isn't 100% spent on contractors.
Even if it was DOUBLING the budget and cutting defense spending by a mere 10% would result in a net reduction in revenue for defense contractors and the added bonus of actually doing something productive with the money.

You could cut NASA budget to $0.00 it doesn't matter. Obama FY2011 budget has an increase of $45.2 billion in defense spending. That is after an increase of $96.3 billion.

Just the INCREASE in defense spending over the first two Obama budgets (ignore the baseline expenditures and just focus on the INCREASED spending) is $141 billion.

That would be enough money to fully fund NASA (with 20% budget increase) for next 6 years. Just the increase in defense spending over 2 years under a Democratic administration is more than funding for science for the next half a decade.
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nyc 4 Biden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. K&R
whether or not i agree with obama's decision to fund further space exploration, this is still a well written piece with valid points.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. So... conspiracy theories and anti-nuke fears.
Great basis for decision making.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I really don't think you've read anything I wrote with any seriousness at all
. . . just checking in for the snide insult, I think. That's par for folks defending this issue.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. I don't think anything you wrote has any seriousness at all.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. more insults
illuminating
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. If you're going to dish it out...
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. heh
. . . as if you needed any prompting from me to be rude.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Oh, I haven't got a problem with you being rude.
Just be intellectually consistent.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. There's really no way for me to fathom such a vacuous attack on my op
Other than to brush you off.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Yes, I'm brushing it off.
Edited on Fri Apr-16-10 11:35 AM by HiFructosePronSyrup
Your OP is vacuous, and it looks like pretty much everybody else agrees, and I'm brushing it off.

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
8. Unrec. Wow anti-science, conspiracy nonesense and dubious link to nukes.
Kinda find it hard to believe that so much anti-science could be crammed into one rant.

"Jim the anti-science readings are off the charts. It registers 28,000 Mega-Creationists"
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. love the fact-filled rebuttal
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. About as fact filled as your OP. n/t
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. zing
()
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. I heard a science fiction author back in the fifties once rebutted something with facts.
That science fiction author? Isaac Asimov.

See where I'm going with this? Isaac Asimov wrote about a dystopian future where there are robots and they stand trial for murder. And there was something about a shoe corporation selling their "antique" shoes.

Obama is a shill for big sneaker/murdering robot corporations.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
23. I don't worry about space based weapons much.
Everything up there is incredibly fragile. The kinetic energies are such that any complex weapon system could be taken out with a handful of sand or a wad of crumpled up newspaper.

Any existing satellite that's still maneuverable can be turned into a missile of incredible force. And a small satellite designed as a weapon, maybe posing as something innocuous, could easily destroy someone's "Death Star."

Star wars is stupid. Nobody is going to attack your battle cruiser up close and slow. Your enemies are going to hit you with something very small, very cheap, going very very fast. You won't even see it coming.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Yeah Kinetic Energy (KE = 1/2mv^2) is a bitch.
Lack of friction in space means a small amount of energy can propel something to extreme velocities. Since Kinetic energy is groes by a factor of the square of velocity that numbers gets real big real quick.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. It's the unchecked, multi-tasking industry that I'm most concerned about
. . . the same folks who bring us our weapons and bombs and their military ambitions are advantaged by these seemingly benign missions. I see these sops to the public as fronts for the billions siphoned off for defense and aerospace industry welfare. Most of the appropriations for systems are just lures for Wall Street investors attracted to their backlog. It's the incestuous industry which is the issue here.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. I agree with you there, the "Military-Industrial Complex" is rotten to the core.
A significant fraction of the industry is a money laundering machine that turns tax dollars into campaign funding for dirty politicians and lobbying for more of the same.
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
24. Here's a bunch of stuff going on in space
And a good example of what we get by funding NASA. This an infrared image of the Orion Nebula, the most active star forming region within 2000 light years. It was obtained with the Spitzer Space Telescope, a NASA mission.

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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
25. Pay for human needs first before funding grand schemes in the name of science
Of course that opinion makes me anti-intellectual and worthy of mocking by some. They are spending a great deal of our money on these ambitious projects while we are expected to live on crumbs here on earth. If they can't meet basic needs for the residents of the country, they can't afford such luxuries as space exploration and an ever-money hungry military.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
44. Here is a direct application to human needs
developing a way to grow plants in space in a more efficient manner will translate directly into improve hydroponics back on Earth.

Oh wait, that is FOOD production, who cares?
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-10 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #44
53. So why not just
spend our money developing a way to grow plants hydroponically on earth in a more efficient manner and leave space, (with all of its enormous added expenses) out of the equation completely?
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
31. Recommended, because these are important issues
I am very much in favor of space exploration and against "Star Wars".
Conservatives during Reagan and neocons during Bush did want to deploy Star Wars, this is something we have to guard against in the future, because they'll try again (and not just in this country).

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
37. Well, we can't let China, Russia, or Nicaragua capture Mars. They'd be after Jupiter next. K&R
Falling dominoes you know.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
39. Solar power can get us to Mars better than nuclear
Edited on Fri Apr-16-10 02:04 PM by bananas
Solar energy at Mars is about half what it is at Earth.
By 2025, Stretched Lens Arrays will be about 1000 W/kg,
at Mars it would be about half that or 500 W/kg,
the proposed MMRTG reactor is 2.8 W/kg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMRTG

http://www.stretchedlensarray.com/TheProject.htm


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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. It's about energy density
The solar panels needed to gather the same energy we can derive from a small reactor would be huge.

Probably for later missions, once the infrastructure is there in place. But for initial missions, nuclear gets the job done.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. Nope, it's about power per unit mass
Size doesn't matter, there's no atmospheric drag in space.
Mass is what's important, and solar provides more power per unit mass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-weight_ratio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
40. What a load of bullcrap!
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. duly noted
Edited on Fri Apr-16-10 04:24 PM by bigtree
Odin2005 thinks this post is a load of bullcrap! Nice. It's as if I was attacking or criticizing you personally. Is there no room in all of the cheerleading of the space announcement on this board for you to tolerate this one dissent without just being rude?? Guess not.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
42. The irony of you posting this on the INTERNET is doupleplusgood delicious
Anyone who does not even know that Europa is itself a moon (circling around Jupiter to be more exact), and has no moons of its own... should learn some basic science first, before trying to tackle far more complex subjects in such a condescending manner.

Good grief... it seems that DU as of late is a refuge for libertarians who got lost, on their way to their meetup, when they took the wrong turn.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. condescending? This original post?
Edited on Fri Apr-16-10 04:45 PM by bigtree
Brother. I reread the post and I don't find a thing 'condescending in it which you should take any offense in at all. I think you just want some reason to justify your own lack of an argument against what I bothered to write and share. Typical of many of the defenses. It's as if I personally insulted folks or something. I just don;t see it.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Huh? All you can do is to appeal to victim status... should give you a hint about the precariousness
of the intellectual grounds of your argument.

You can not expect for these sorts of opinions to be taken seriously regarding space exploration, when they display a clear lack of grasp regarding the most basic facts of cosmology.


People are entitled to their own opinions, not their own facts. Which is what makes science such a cruel bitch to a large portion of Americans.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. the Europa's moons was tounge in cheek, at least when I first wrote it in 2003
And I didn't attack you at all by writing this thread. But, you seemed to think it was open-season for insults. Brilliant.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. I find the collusion of military industrial interest with space exploration appalling
I disagree that the notion of space exploration being a luxury.

I just found your OP as intellectually dishonest and the people you were chastising in it. That is all...

In any case, since you can't fathom being wrong... and go as far as brushing off glaring mistakes as simple "tongue in cheek" (again trying to project your equivocations onto other people, because as I said you just can't even entertain the notion of you being wrong so it must be stupid people not getting your brilliant brand of particular humor). There is no point in even pretending to have a debate.

Have a nice day, cheers.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
49. If we can make it that far, local space will be ruled by warships and
missiles. Someone will 'control' space, they just can't let 'people' get all hunky dory with eachother...we might end up like Star Trek or something.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
51. In as much as I am successful in making my self look foolish in areas I know
a lot about I am reluctant to adding to that perception by commenting on areas that I know very little.

It does seem logical that if a Republican General-President like Eisenhower was motivated to express his concern about the military industrial complex before the space program that it would be logical to continue that concern now and include the space program as well.

Civilian scientific control of NASA has always been in tension with other demands of NASA and we would do well to continue to back the interests of science against the other competing interests.

rec
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
52. In space, no one can hear you scream.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-10 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
54. While I'd love to see a manned mission to Mars
from a purely scientific standpoint, it's hard to see a push for it by Washington as anything but a huge giveaway for the aerospace industry. This country is more than 10 trillion dollars in debt, and getting further in the hole every day. Every serious and sensible person knows deep down that this simply can't continue forever, so everyone with their hooks in Washington politicians want to loot the Treasury for their share while the United States can still actually borrow money they don't have. The financial industry did their part to rob the American taxpayers of trillions of dollars, and now the aerospace industry wants their pile.
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