Do Americans hate teachers?

[annabanana]

Or is it just the corporate media in the service of the "drown it in a bathtub" crowd?

The gratuitous hits I'm seeing against teachers and teacher's unions on every channel I turn to today is making me wonder why there's so little push-back.

[Anakin Skywalker]

1. Sure! Why Not?

The Sarah Palin crowd certainly do. They don't want your kids to be able to think. Hey, just BELIEVE, OK?! Besides, every conservative knows teachers are all a bunch of filthy godless liberals anyway!

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. Also a significant number right here on DU

And it seems to be growing.

[seabeyond]

74. yup. nt

[LWolf]

204. Based on this thread, I'd say it's definitely a DU trend. nt

[Crystal Clarity]

2. It sure seems that way

Although I don't understand why. IMO teaching ranks high in undervalued jobs...right up there with nursing, childcare, ect.

[old mark]

3. Back in the late 1990's when the anti-Clinton RW crowd was out screaming that

they wanted their country back, I nearly got into a fight with a redneck who was talking about the Columbine shootings and saying that more teachers should be shot...I went after him, till he got into his truck and drove off.
My sister, brother in law, and mother in law were then teachers, my brother works in a university computer department, and my mom was s school librarian.

But many on the "religious" right hate education because they see it as a threat to their control - teachers are seen as enemies....


mark

[Jade Fox]

4. more and more......

it seems like teachers have turned into some sort of scapegoat.

[Smarmie Doofus]

5. They hate UNIONS.

The $$$ media does, anyway. My guess is they're ok with low-paid, non-union teachers. The media-consuming public believes what it sees.

Bring back Miss Crabtree and Sister John Aloysius!

[Fla Dem]

72. Business Hates Unions....Republicans hate Unions

So they become a convenient punching bag. Unions are for the rights of working men and women. Democrats work for the rights of working men and women. Break up the unions, you lose a big Democratic voting block and the Republicans keep the corporation money flowing into their coffers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. No only the ones who belong to a union.

:evilgrin:

[GoCubsGo]

38. No, they hate the ones that teach in public schools, PERIOD.

That is what this is really all about. It's mostly public school-bashing. Most of the teachers here in South Carolina are not union teachers. They're getting bashed right along with those in the union. Granted, a bunch of these morons seem to think the unions have more power than they do here. You never hear them bashing private school teachers.

[Dappleganger]

59. After the hell we went through fighting SB 6 here in FL the past few weeks...

it's quite obvious that there a vocal segment who hate not just those in teachers' unions but pretty much any public school teachers.

It's sickening and makes me so ashamed to be in the same state as those morons.

[NNN0LHI]

7. If you think back to last year it was the union auto workers who were in this same barrel

Remember even the NYT was pushing the $70 an hour myth? Back then I was starting to wonder if Americans hated union auto workers.

Do you remember?

Don

[Romulox]

112. Funny you should mention autoworkers!

Um, solidarity? :rofl:

[Skidmore]

8. These arguments that belonging to a group means you are

automatically excluded from being held accountable for your work and actions are absolutely stupid. NO group is without members who are not up to standards and no member should be protected when they are unable to discharge their duties with competence. The positively knee-jerk assumption that any questioning to the contrary is somehow getting the hate on is equally stupid. Teachers and other professionals must be individually evaluated for competency and released when they cannot perform their jobs competently. Unions need to understand that standards in any profession must be met and recognize that, at some point, there is a greater responsibility to make certain that the profession is populated by quality people. It has nothing to do with getting the hate on. I extend the same comments to cover any profession, whether protected by a union or a professional organization. The problems in our society alway seem to be someone else's fault when scrutiny is brought to bear.

[Hissyspit]

10. There is plenty of getting the hate on for workers, and little accountability for management.

[azurnoir]

33. there are school officials being called in to question

all over the country you just have to pay attention, it is not teachers that America is tired of it is the failing public schools

[azurnoir]

30. +1 very true

got bitten yesterday for suggesting that some of 600 teachers in New York that are on suspension are there for a reason. not every one of them can be completely innocent

[MattBaggins]

44. Everyone knows and accepts what you wrote.

That is not the problem and yes there is an anti-union teacher hating bias going on right now.

It is because certain powerful forces want to take over schools. It is also there because no one will point their fingers at the real culprits in failing students; that is the parents.

[Skidmore]

69. There is plenty of blame go go around, from

poorly funded school districts to poor curriculums to poorly educated teachers to equally ill-educated and disinterested parents to kids who don't care if they live up to the minimal standards present. It is a large problem and all sides need to be participating in finding solutions. My children attended public school and I was happy to have them do so, but I supplemented the curriculum they received because there were missing elements which were important to their success later. Both have done exceedingly well as adults and I have seen how much putting that extra effort into them early on has paid off. Rather than broadly focusing on the union v. administration spitfight, it seems to me that we could use very large national effort at identifying problems and goals for the future. I believe we need a minimum national curriculum and standards to go with it, starting with the three Rs and adding science and arts. Any locally preferred additions to that corrections need to be paid for by the community/state which desires it. I also believe that funding of schools should be taken out of income tax rather than property taxes because people need to be invested in the education their children receive and providing education benefits all. These are good starting points for me because the educationals system does not serve well right now in spite of the fact that there are many good teachers in it. It is an outdated system sorely in need of systemic change.

[laughingliberal]

183. It may, indeed, be in need of systemic change but the current propaganda

is designed to whip up support for privatizing our school system in order to allow some to profit off it. It will work out just as well as converting our hospitals to a mostly for profit industry in the 80's did. You know. Remember how all that competition brought down the cost of hospital care and improved the quality? :sarcasm:

I can't think of a single government service which was privatized where costs did not go up and quality went down. Not one.

[wolfgangmo]

106. I had a union job.

When I was called to the carpet one time for something I screwed up the first question the union rep had for was, "did you do anything wrong? Did you do this or that or this (examples of career killer actions)." When I answered no, he asked a few more details and then instructed me to listen, keep my mouth shut, answer questions truthfully and briefly, and then accept any punishment / fines.

I was fined, suspended for a few days without pay, and then put on "parole" for 6 months during which time I could be fired at will. Unions being able to allow you to screw up anything at any time and have no consequences is a MYTH. If it ever existed, it sure doens't anymore.

[laughingliberal]

184. Myth is correct. And it is, specifically, an RW created myth. nt

[LWolf]

157. Let's enlilghten you.

Teachers are individually evaluated for competency. There are protocols in place to "release" the incompetent. Unions protect due process. They don't prevent teachers from "release" when that process is followed faithfully to an appropriate firing.

It has everything to do with getting hate on. Hating teachers, and hating unions, serves several political purposes. All of them right-wing. It is not to the Democratic Party's credit that in 2010 many have joined the Republicans and the right-wing on this issue.

[laughingliberal]

185. +1000 nt

[Mojeoux]

200. "perform their jobs competently" By who's criteria? Unions=Working Americans n/t

[LARED]

9. I think it's a symptom of the economic times

In New Jersey at least, most people have little sympathy for teachers when local government are asking them to fork over a few percentage points to offset the cost of benefits, while most private sector employees are forking over 30 to 50 percent or more for heath benefits. Listening to the Teachers union you would think teachers will be on the street begging for food if this happens.

[ixion]

11. Our culture treats intelligence like a disease

and as such treat teachers akin to midwives. It's a sad statement on our culture, and our species.

As evidence I offer the fact the Failin' Palin was rewarded with millions for being a shallow, tongue-speakin' moron.

[notesdev]

12. The performance is indefensible

The fact is that people are graduating from our schools as illiterates (functional or complete).

In a single generation we have gone from producing adequately-learned graduates to producing economic and emotional cripples - people with high expectations and no skills.

What people experience in college is even more insidious.

This is a problem that must be fixed, and teachers should be at the head of the line demanding it be fixed.

[teach1st]

13. We are

This is a problem that must be fixed, and teachers should be at the head of the line demanding it be fixed.

Nobody listens to us. We demand that the testing madness that leads to shallow, very narrow learning be eased. We demand that societal conditions that lead to poverty, parents working two jobs and being unable to spend time with their kids, drug abuse, child abuse, and increased violence be addressed. Teachers have gotten better at what we do, but we have to contend with a hell of a lot more adversity than ever before. We are speaking out. Not many people are listening.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. +1

:applause:

[GreenPartyVoter]

18. And another +1

[Klukie]

201. and one more +1

[athenasatanjesus]

219. +1 again

[notesdev]

23. Need better leadership then

Maybe it's time that students got a genuine union of their own, since nobody else among the powers that be appears to share their priorities.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Such bullshit!

The #1 priority of teachers is students. Always has been.

[notesdev]

29. Is that so?

You'd better go take that argument to your union leadership then, because their website certainly doesn't reflect that assertion.

Looking through it at this moment, I see the top concerns of the AFT are:

#1 - more money
#2 - oppose attempts at reform
#3 - health care

Now when you finally get to the parts that would actually matter to a student, the one solution for everything seems to be "throw more money at it". Well, there's no more money since we're in a depression, and everyone is going to have to figure out how to best deal with that.

For example, what's the #1 problem in higher education today? Soaring tuition costs, I think any student would agree, no? Well, the last time the AFT bothered to even mention tuition costs - according to their own website - appears to have been 2 years ago. It's not mentioned at all in anything that is featured among policy priorities. Apparently fanning the flames of the the fake H1N1 scare was (and still is!) more important.

Anybody can access their website and see that if student performance is a priority for the AFT, it's a pretty damn low one.

Let's be honest here, shall we? The only real priority of the AFT is to get more money for teachers, full stop - and again, one only needs their own website to confirm this. Everything else is an afterthought.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. I have a far better understanding of AFT's goals than you do

But then, when your objective is focused on bashing teachers, it must be hard to deviate from that and see the good things our unions do for our kids.

My union just this year has:

1. Implemented a school safety task force, surveyed teachers, students and parents, contacted the media and met with administration to improve school safety. The result is children in safer learning environments due to increased attention on safety. This had absolutely nothing to do with salaries or money. In fact, the union members who did this work received no pay for the multiple hours they put in.

2. Provided input and guidance on curriculum decisions. Again, no money involved and the focus is on kids, not teachers.

3. Researched and provided resources for administration on merit pay and pay for performance. This one is about salaries but the union's proposals are less costly than the administration's. That leaves more money for the students and their needs.

4. Studied in detail the state and district budgets in order to assure our limited resources are spent wisely and are focused on what's best for our kids.

Perhaps you should move beyond the Internet to find what a teachers union actually does.

[notesdev]

66. Do I take your word, or the official AFT word?

Since you know better than the people who run the union website what the union is actually doing, maybe you should be running the union.

But quite frankly, I don't believe a bit of it. This is exactly the kind of accountability-free mumbo-jumbo I used to see from useless bureaucrats when I worked with the government - it justifies a paycheck from the bureaucracy, but does no actual good for anyone. There is not one of these things that you have listed that can be independently evaluated and verified.

And I am absolutely positive that there has been no good faith examination of budgets by the AFT. If there were, they wouldn't be selling out their junior members to preserve the unfulfillable promises made to the senior ones. I have actually examined these budgets in some detail (since I am very interested in economics in general), and if you have as I have then you know that the #1 item blowing out budgets is pension and benefit costs of public employees such as teachers. Had the AFT really examined these topics with any honesty and good faith, they would not at this time be agitating for yet more pay and more benefits. They would concede that promises made in the past can't be met and try to find some middle ground, which they presently oppose with fervor.

[proud2BlibKansan]

142. So you are calling me a liar

Or maybe I'm delusional and I just imagined AFT sending an analyst to look at our budget.

Uh oh. I'm spending my days with children. :scared:

[notesdev]

150. I'm saying you can't back up those claims

If you can, let's see it. My observation of budget numbers (and the budget crises hitting cities and states across the country), combined with the lack of any substantive proposal on the part of the AFT, say you can't do it.

How long do you think that analyst would keep his job if he recommended a sane solution (which requires the AFT scaling back its compensation demands dramatically)?

But hey, don't take my word for it. Take Randi Weingarten's word - or lack thereof - for it:

http://aft.org/newspubs/press/

Notice how little there is in terms of being realistic about the budget, and how student performance is hardly even mentioned? Notice how many of those press releases have nothing do to with education at all?

[haele]

217. Is it possible that this position is a matter of perception?

Most teachers I know and am related to have little to no power over their classrooms, and that's a function of the school board and district administrators - all of whom have voted themselves the pay and benefits worth at least that of any three teachers - and are usually politically protected from their own excesses.
Asking for better pay - especially since most are plunking down up to 10% of their salary paying for their own classroom supplies and are not being paid overtime for all the after-school work and required extra-curricular training they need to go through yearly - is not unreasonable. How much should you pay someone who averages 60 hours of work a week? That's why upper management and CEO's claim to get away with their exorbitant salaries - they spend all that extra time making money for the companies doing political work after hours. Seems to me a cocktail party is not as hard as spending the 4 - 6 additional hours after school grading papers and re-analyzing one's syllabus that had been developed 3 months earlier to match to the current capabilities of the class one is teaching so that the majority of the children might have some concept of the subject matter - that is, if the children want to learn.
Asking for more power in the classrooms - to untie their hands, so they can re-write their lesson plans to the class, so they actually have more control of the responsibility they were given to teach. So if they're really bad teachers, it's more directed to the quality of their ability to teach rather than some objective requirement of the school board or district to stick to a book or useless "one-size-fits-all-McClassroom" package sold to the district by a corporate entity that obviously understands the children of the community more than a teacher who lives there does.

Every single point from the AFT object statement mentioned can be used in any union or employee-benefit organization's charter. I've seen similar for the local federal government workers union site, as well as for the local marine electrician's and shipfitters's unions - all to empower the worker and to allow the worker to be compensated fairly for the work they do.

Too many people think that to give the worker more responsibility for their work and to compensate fairly for the education required, the environment of the workplace, and the additional hours of work outside the workplace needed for the worker to do his or her job properly is a scam against employers, customers, and taxpayers.

Of course, many people still think indentured servitude and workhouse/prison labor is a perfectly reasonable way to keep the poor and desperate productive, and that people should be valued by the amount of property owned, employees and in their portfolios. These people tend to think of employees as tools that are pretty much disposable.

Haele

[wolfgangmo]

114. Correct me if I'm wrong but...

Does a the AFT represent anyone in college? I ask because we all have to pick our fights and while college level tuition is a fucking crime in the US (I checked into tuition her and in Canada for an advanced degree I am interested in and I found that tuition in Canada is much less in schools which have faculty with much better reputations internationally. So my choice is to accept huge debt going to school here or move to Canada and accept less debt there but totally interupt my life. WTF?) they don't have a dog in the college fight. Or at least they don't directly.

Are you suggesting that unions are to blame for things they have no control over or fiducial interest in?

[notesdev]

131. Apparently it does

There is a college section and a separate website (aftface.org).

So the AFT does in fact have a financial interest in keeping tuition high.

[proud2BlibKansan]

144. Yes AFT represents some higher Ed groups

And no they have no control over what that poster is complaining about.

Surprise!

[MattBaggins]

47. Nope it's all your fault

You all need to be taken out to the public square and whipped.

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. Can we sell tickets?

:evilgrin:

[annabanana]

14. They have been I think. The problem is that our totally compromised

media isn't letting the word get out.

[MadHound]

16. The fact is there have always been a certain percentage that have graduated as functional illiterate

There has always been a certain percentage of the population that simply cannot be effectively educated unless you give them complete, one on one attention for their entire educational career.

Yes, their are problems with education, but what makes you think that teachers aren't in the forefront demanding change? That is, after all, part of why we belong to unions, to speak with a collective voice about matters that concern us. Unions are just in place to protect the teacher's interests, but also to give voice to our concerns.

And concerns we do have, ranging from NCLB to Duncan to teaching to the test, to merit pay, to privatization of our schools, on and on. Yet sadly, given teachers low status in our society, nobody seems to want to listen to these experts. Teachers were screaming about NCLB, yet did anybody listen, no. You see everyday teachers voicing their alarm over RTTT and other Obama policies, but are they heeded, no, instead they are scorned because they dare to criticize the mighty Obama.

In one of the most perverse role reversals in history, the education experts, teachers, have been disregarded and dismissed in favor of listening to yahoos ranging from Nixon to Bush, Clinton to Obama, Carter to Duncan. We allow the public to not just have the ultimate vote on funding issues, but also allow any RW fundy run for schoolboard, which means that local education policies have become twisted for the last thirty years.

But does anybody listen to the teacher? No, despite our education and experience we are disregarded and discounted.

Perhaps it's time that people started listening, eh?

[seabeyond]

20. yes. here is the example of the american people, not knowing what he is talking about, yet

blindly going after the teachers without any sort of honesty in your statement

[notesdev]

21. Yours is a great example of wagon circling behavior

I'm not going after teachers, I'm going after a broken system.

It seems that there are many who reflexively oppose even the mention of the real problems in the system, as evidenced by your reaction.

[annabanana]

22. you have not delineated the "real problems". .

except to imply that you think the declining educational results have nothing to do with cut budgets, rote learning, economic hardship or public devaluation of critical thinking...

[notesdev]

27. I have in fact identified the real problems

If you think that cut budgets are the problem, you haven't looked at the numbers. There is almost no relationship at all between money put into the system and the performance of that system (just look at Detroit).

Rote learning is not ideal, but in the past it was sufficient to produce reasonably educated graduates. Whatever is going on today, it is not producing reasonably educated graduates.

Economic hardship? There has always been economic hardship, always will be. This is effectively a constant and not part of the equation.

Now, public devaluation of critical thinking, that I can agree with. If you were in charge of solving that problem, where would you start?

[Klukie]

78. I would start with the parents!!!!

[wolfgangmo]

119. Start with the administration.

I used to be a teacher, but I grew up in a family of entrepreneurs and I now run and operate a medical clinic. As a citizen and former teacher I have seen many schools grab grant money and ask for building money to build new schools. While many districts are judicious with thier money, I see WAY TOO many administrators waste money on building expensive and unneeded edifaces to their egos (one new school near me has marble floors). I know many of the teachers in that district and all of them voiced oposition to taxpayer money being spend on this ediface as opposed to learning spaces, science labs, library resources, etc. But a large chunk of that money went to pay for the floors that were recommended by the repub connected construction firm that "won" the contract.

Back when I was a teacher I saw so many administrative blunders that it was impossible to tell where one fuck up ended and the next started. Veteran teachers I worked with just shrugged and told me to ignore the administration and serve the kids. It is easier to apologies than ask permission.

If we are to hold someone accountable, how about the so called leadership. Fah. This leaders of this country used to say "the buck stops here," and now they say "if mistakes were made..."

[seabeyond]

28. yes, i have issue with people going after a broken system that isn't broken, for whatever agenda

your one example is of kids not graduating, and walking out of the school illiterate. do tell, how you propose to make the students learn and make the kids graduate.

give me a way

you are going to exclaim it a broken system, and putting onus on teachers.

ONE solution to keeping the kids in school to graduate.

[notesdev]

36. I am not putting any onus on teachers

Unlike the AFT, I think our teachers are in general quite good and are not the problem. The problem is a system that doesn't give two squats about the performance of students and whether or not they actually learn anything. The problem is a system that says, if you live in a district with a failing school, tough cookies - and gives the parents of those students no option other than to move to another district. The problem is a system that allows one emotionally disturbed child to disrupt an entire class' educations. The problem is a system which in reality is more a long-extended daycare system than a system intended to educate. And I could go on and on here... anybody in this country not vested in the current system can see that the current system is a complete and total failure.

I don't have a magical bullet solution, but common sense tells me we have to try new things. Seeing that there are people out there who do want to try new things, what is stopping them? Answer: entrenched interests, such as the AFT or the conglomeration of banks which profit obscenely off of college loans, which are perfectly content to see students fail as long as they get theirs.

[seabeyond]

46. i dont have a vested interest but that my children are in the system. and

it is a matter of agreeing, yet disagreeing with all that you are saying.

over the last more than decade, i have seen various "new things" given a go trying to figure out how to satisfied the critics and about all i am finding is they are blocks put in front of both the student and the admn/teachers.

here in texas because of the hype that our kids are not learning, we have 4 X 4. four years of english, history, science and math. both my kids will have to do it. both kids are in the AP courses and get top grades. both kids have academics beyond what we did in our day. and neither kid needs to go thru a 4X4 that we insist of all students which in many ways i see as simply wrong.

they will do it though. as they continue to jump thru the loops of all the people demanding "new experiments" on them to resolve the issue of the number of students that refuse to learn and refuse to graduate from high school. the number of students that no matter what schools, adm, teachers, govt do will continue to refuse to learn or complete their education. at the expense of the children that will perform all these tricks so they can take the advantages in education and their future for the dissatisfaction of the naysayers pointing the finger where it does not belong.

if we continue to look at a made up problem, we will NEVER find a solution regardless of what we implement. not only is it a waste of time and money, but the hurt it does is amazing, which again, the blame will shift to the teachers i am sure.

[notesdev]

60. Re: 4x4

I'm looking at the description of the program here:

http://www.fortbend.k12.tx.us/cmf/var/tidbits/Tidbits_parentlinks_20070206_0952.pdf

Says your kids can test out of it ("Yes, students may attend night school or summer school, or they may obtain credit through credit by examination, dual enrollment or correspondence courses.")

From what I can tell, the net effect of the program is to add another year of math and science, which I can't fault.


Here's the central problem, though. Although students are being graduated, they are not learning the coursework. I know this because I have interviewed plenty of them. There is no way in hell that they know math at the levels required to graduate. Likewise for history, which any survey will confirm. There is no way they have four years of actually learning English - fewer than one in four could write a simple business letter (which a 5th-grader should be able to do). In contrast, people in their 30s and above seem to have no problem doing these things - if it were life experience which was the difference, that would be one things, but these are very academic topics and exactly the kinds of things students should be learning in school in order to be functional as adults.

Our schools are churning out graduates who are wholly unfit for employment. This is the problem that must be solved - we are in big trouble already for dawdling and diddling while the problem goes unsolved. It must be terrible to be a young person today, looking at a future of no jobs and no hope for them, and not even being given the tools to understand why this is their fate.

[seabeyond]

70. that is so easy to say, but that isn't a reality. and it isn't thinking it thru. and reality?

betcha ten to one it will only create a larger drop out rate.

thinking thru

not all kids are math oriented. their brain does not work that way. in our day, two years of math was required. algebra and geometry. if a student went beyond it was cause his/her skill was in math. took the cream off the top for serious math work. now

my kid has to do

algebra
geometry
algebra 2
calculus

why?

every test he takes puts him in 98/99% across the u.s. in reading comprehension and lower than average in math. but he will struggle his way thru four years of math to be able to be educated in the area he excels and enjoys. other kids though, will say fuck it. can barely make it thru the two years, no way, no how gonna do four years of math.

so, texas and you set these kids up for failure.

[notesdev]

73. Kids in Europe can do it

Our kids are not less than their kids.

When we test our kids at young ages they do just as well as the Europeans do.

Yet after years of schooling, the Europeans blow us out of the water.

What explanation can there possibly be other than that the schools are not properly serving our students? Who is responsible to fix this problem?

[seabeyond]

75. you dont have the facts and information correct. you do have the propaganda and rhetoric down pat

look at the different systems all over the world. they weed out the kids that do this and that. ones that perform get the upper education, those that dont test out, go a different direction.

there are all kinds of facts you are not being given.

but

regardless.

are you telling me what i say, that makes perfect sense, that is an absolute with our brains, the way the brain works since our kids are so often tested, we know how their brains work, are you saying...

that there is not consideration at all to the damage this will cause in our school system

no further thought?

this is what the problem is. people yell to have the changes. point the finger where it doesnt belong.

demand and insist for changes not needed, changes that will escalate a problem

and that is where we sit today.

you say kids today are not given an education... and how much better it was in the past. i tell you and fact proves out kids are doing more today. what happened to all the good of yesterday. that was your argument at the beginning.

[notesdev]

83. A failed system does not deserve preservation

The system ONLY exists for the purpose of educating students.

It has failed to educate students, on a massive scale.

Therefore what benefits the system itself is a non-issue to those whose concern is the actual education of students.

The reality is that where the people who make controlling decisions concerning our education system are concerned, preserving their own privileges is the only real priority they have, even to the point where they are willing to see legions of younger teachers fired in order that the senior teachers should enjoy excessive benefits.

The ONLY people who benefit from the current system are the entrenched interests. Not the students, not parents, not the businesses that will have to hire employees only to find that they need to be trained in even basic literacy, and not the country as a whole.

This state of denial, which insists that this current (defunct) system can work if only there was more money, more teachers, more buildings, more tests, more regulations, and so on, is a key barrier to us building a new system for the modern era which actually does serve students and the country.

[seabeyond]

85. ok. so none of your argument works or makes sense or is factual so adjust... start over

with bullshit

the education is there. many many kids jump in and receive their education BEYOND what you and i receive, kicking our ass. which you refuse to acknowledge even though the facts are there.

who is not the educated one? to ignore the facts for argument sake?

society fails

but the schools are not

when we address a problem that does not exist, and ignore the problem that is in our face, no solution will ever be had

but it certainly makes us foolish

now

continue on you attack of teachers like american across the nation for agenda purpose, truly ignoring the needs of kids.

[notesdev]

91. A good summary of the problem

We are so far gone that now people with no real education are having kids and don't even realize that those kids aren't getting an education, either.

This conversation is not so complex that any person of average intelligence could not follow along and constructively participate. Yet now three times you have defaulted to the brainwash argument ("Don't blame the teachers!") which does not address a single issue I have raised, nor does it even provide proof that you possess the basic reading skills necessary to see that I have in fact denied a number of times that teachers are a problem at all.

You cannot even write complete sentences with proper punctuation and capitalization, no wonder you don't see a problem here!

[seabeyond]

93. and every time you ignore that fact that the education is there. the child could receive

that education. academics are beyond what they were in the past. it is the parent and the student that is not taking advantage of the opportunity. the system is in place. it is doing its job. it is providing the education. and the parent and the student are refusing it.

now

what do we do.

[notesdev]

97. I don't agree with that statement at all

It is statistically nigh-impossible for that to be true. (This is one of the reasons why math is so fundamental to understanding reality.) It would mean that across the entire country, parents and students together just decided that education wasn't important. This flies in the face of the mounting debts they have taken on to finance educations.

The far simpler explanation, and the one backed up by mountains of facts and statements made by the parties involved, is that educating students is no longer a priority for the system itself. That is the only reasonable explanation for why such a thing would happen on a nationwide scale.

[seabeyond]

99. so you are not seeing what is actually happening in the academics of school

you are making assumptions. and then you bring in your math, (not), ignoring all kinds of facts for the equation, draw you conclusion and ignore factual information given to you.

then you insist that people would not be so stupid, or think so little about education, as you do just that

funny

[notesdev]

102. I'm not making assumptions

I'm dealing with the hard fact that school graduates today are completely unprepared for adult life. I see the results of a lot more than just one set of kids, and the results are abominable. Moreover, I see distinct differences unrelated to life experience in the older individuals that I interview and assess, in terms of literacy and math skills. It is absolutely unmistakable that not only is the level of education of a student today generally insufficient for employment, but that it is continuing to get worse over time. For example, it appears that the ability of a student graduate to write a simple business letter disappeared about 10 years ago; people in their late 20s write me these letters just fine, older people do as well, but younger than 28 or so and these people are practically useless, other than the handful who would be exceptional under any conditions.

You do your kids and others no favors at all to deny the problem. When they graduate and can't find work, I hope you enjoy their company, as it will be a very long time (if ever) before they are able to establish an independent existence in a rough economy with no job skills and deficient in basic literacy.

[seabeyond]

103. you do the kids no favor in ignoring the issues. you might want to look at societal trends

on why our kids are so apathetic with work and adult responsibilities and maybe a little curiosity at how the teacher is suppose to instill all these things that parents did in the past to help the child along the road of success.

to be honest, i want my schools to be putting the time in the academics. and that is what my kids are receiving. beyond what we did in our day (but keep ignoring that). and i will teach my kids work ethic, discipline, responsibility, pride in their work and over all positive character. they will be successful in life.

and as people like you continue to blame the school system for not giving all that to kids, and not pointing the finger at parents, then you will continue to meet the kids that are more and more apathetic to their environment.

but my kids, and kids who parents take parenting seriously, will have successful kids.

[notesdev]

108. It's called "enabling"

The school system enables parents to not care for the education of kids, since those kids graduate anyway no matter how little they learn.

The proper role of the school in such a case is to send up the warning flags and to hold the kid back. If the parent has a problem with that, then that will get them involved. By advancing students who know little to nothing they are saying that it's just fine and dandy that kids aren't being educated.

I hesitate to assign too much blame to the parents for the simple reason that they have no choice as to which school their kids go to, unless they have the financial wherewithal to move to a better school district. The power of parents to affect the situation has been deliberately limited by an establishment that likes things to be just as they are.

[seabeyond]

110. OM fuckin G. now you want the teachers to be parents to the fuckin parents

well, i will tell you,.... i told my kids at the beginning of putting them into the system, i am the parent, not the teachers, principal, police, or govt. i am your parent and i make the rules and you follow my rules.

talk about fukin enabling. i am flabbergasted by your post. dont treat parents as adults but kids. dont expect them to buck up to their job, put it on teachers shoulders to make the parent do.

no one has taken away my power to create the environment of academic expectation of my children, critical thinking from my children, a social responsibility from my children.

you are exactly being an enabler to parents and kids and it is disgusting, ... to say the very least. teach them how to make excuses for their failures and inadequacies.

done. you are beyond being reasonable or reasoned with.

[notesdev]

113. Not at all

I want schools to be schools, not daycare centers. Schools should graduate those who learn the coursework, and not graduate those who don't. What the parents do or do not do should not impact schools' policies in this matter. Someone with good parents who doesn't learn should be held back, and someone with bad parents who does learn should be graduated.

Schools should not graduate a student who does not learn the coursework. This has absolutely nothing to do with parents, this is something that can be administered with complete objectivity regardless of parental involvement or lack thereof. This is entirely within the power of the school system to do, and indeed it is their responsibility if they have any claim to legitimacy in their mission.

[seabeyond]

116. oh. well. yea! you found a little, itsy bitsy piece of the issue to grab onto ignoring the elephant

in the room

bully for you

glad you are SO concerned for the kids

[notesdev]

126. That's not itsy bitsy

That's absolutely fundamental to schools doing their job properly. It is absolutely necessary to distinguish them from glorified day care centers.

Students are getting diplomas they do not deserve, and it is schools giving those diplomas to them (not parents).

They must stop evading responsibility for this problem and start taking responsibility to fix it.

[laughingliberal]

191. Enabling, my ass! If a parent is interested in whether their child is learning they will spend the

time on it. If they're not interested, it doesn't matter a damn what the school or teacher does. If we have a bunch of parents who only care if the kid graduates, well, that's on them. The less they have to do, the better, right? How is that on the school? And your fantasies about people over 30 knowing how to do these simple things kid today don't learn how to do is overblown. I've worked with people in all age groups over the course of a 30 year career in nursing and found them in every age group who don't know proper grammar, can't spell, don't understand a simple ratio. And these are people with college educations in a lot of cases. I'm sorry to say it was often RN's I was involved in training. Yes, it's astounding but it's not new or unique to people under 30.


edited punctuation

[seabeyond]

100. ex; my niece where academics is not a priority, girls are stupid, but sexy

at 16 her and her friend are at our house. my sons 7 and 9. the girls giggle, i dont know the difference between mexico adn new mexico. it is so confusing.

my little boys eyes are huge. they have already been taught geography

i tell the girls..... YOU LIVE IN FUCKIN TEXAS

are you really suggesting that these girls 13 years of academics, they never touched on difference between new mexico and mexico.

or do you think their priority was elsewhere.

who gets the blame for that.

[notesdev]

105. "who gets the blame for that"

I'll tell you who gets the blame for that, the people who decided to advance these girls a grade time and time again even though they did not learn what they are required to learn in those previous grades. Hold them back once, I bet those girls will make absolutely sure it will never happen again, and there may even be a chance they'd work hard enough to get themselves back up to the grade that matches their age level. The benefits to them learning that lesson early, rather than as an adult when they can really get screwed by not having learned it, are immense.

I'd assign some blame to the parent too, if the reality were not that the parent has no choice over where the child goes to school and what they learn there. Perhaps there is some genuine blame to be assigned in that direction, but it is not conclusive with the facts as given.

Isn't this proof of a broken system, that children can reach the age of 16 and not know the difference between a neighboring state and a foreign nation, yet still be advanced to grade after grade (and eventually be graduated) while persisting in this ignorance?

[seabeyond]

107. i guess you and i see it differently. i see it as a society that allows, accepts, encourages

both our males and females to pretend stupid.

do you think i really believe, that at 16, having made it to their levels, living in the state of texas, that they do not know that new mexico is on the left of them, a state, and mexico below them, a country.

and i put all the blame on the parenting that allow the girls to put all their worth in their sexuality and not respect or worth or pride in their intelligence.

[Klukie]

125. Math does allow for the human element....

If busy parents are not instilling the discipline required to do the work then maybe that is why the students are not learning. Society as a whole has a lot on its plate to be able to maintain our standard of living and I think the value of education was lost in the process.

[wolfgangmo]

127. I'm afraid I have to give your opponent points on this one.

Yes, EU school kids outperform ours, and while you are correct in pointing out that they "weed" out kids an further explanation is needed. In most EU countries they have systems of apprenticeship for those who are not matriculating (college bound) so that they get appropriate levels of education and work experiences in the fields of their choice (it's like voc ed on steroids).

So yes, their kids who test against us do better because they don't test all of their kids. But that is a good thing. Unless you are saying that you think that NCLB was a great idea, no? And even in these different educational tracks in the EU (and Canada BTW) those student are required to take 4 years of sciences, math, english, foriegn language, arts, etc. Your argument that requiring 4 years is a bad thing is specious in that your only example is the stupid way Texas is doing it. In other countries students are still required to take all 4 years of classes but the classes are more tracked to their level and interests.

I attended school in Canada many moons ago and there were 3 different classes offered at each grade level; matriculation, business and vocational. Each had the same materials but it was presented differently moving from the theoretical to the practical.

The system in the US is not necessarily broken, but it isn't exactly moving around the track like Richard Petty anymore either. It needs an oil change, tune up, and to have the 70 or 80 trailers hitched to it's bumper n the form of testing and extra duties (social services - schools started to take those on after Nixon and then Reagan took an ax to those programs in the communities). If we were to move from education being all things to all people and to refocus on the core mission of educating it would correct most problems. Education, to me, is akin to general motors in the 1980's, clueless and meandering aimlessly with the exception of a few pockets of true innovation.

[seabeyond]

137. one of the first things i addressed are the students that are not academically inclined

and will not graduate regardless of what is done and the importance of having something set up for them to allow success. something that is easily recognizable yet ignore. instead we demand 100% graduation when it just is not going to happen. that to me is a waste of time, money and ignoring the real issues, ergo, not going ot find a solution. our numbers would look differently with only the serious students in the mix.

there are other areas that are different from europe that we wont even discuss on du, that are huge elements of the equation. our bad we cant talk about it.

isnt your whole system set up differently? you dont have the same structure of elementary, middle school adn high school, do you?

[laughingliberal]

192. Thank you. I think you identified a central problem in the way we attempt to educate our children

This cookie cutter, one size fits all model does not work. Of course, our problem is money and always has been. It costs a little more to tailor the system to meet the needs of a student body with different abilities and needs.

[seabeyond]

71. btw... science, history, english, no concern with my boys. all easy for them

if they dont already know the stuff, because we are all interested in this in home, they learn it easily. that is how their brains work.

take the mathematical brain. the child that excels at math. they struggle in the englishes, history, and some of the science where there isn't equations. now that child will be struggling to make it thru with three subjects.

how does this help us as a society, or our kids, when we purposely and with enthusiasm throw the road blocks in front of them.

[notesdev]

76. That's life

Life is full of things we must overcome and are not naturally skilled at doing. Kids must learn this lesson or they will be totally unprepared for the realities of life.

There are all sorts of things that I was once terrible at, hated, couldn't learn to do well - but I needed to learn these things in order to live and climbed uphill against my weaknesses to overcome them.

Math skills in particular are crucial to being able to understand the world we live in. It does nobody any benefit to say "this is too hard therefore I won't do it."

[seabeyond]

80. YOU didnt have to do it. it wasnt required of YOU. YOU did not receive that education

yet you so easily dismiss it for the kids today with that is life. and then the kids that will not buck up, and the parents that will not do their job, and the kids that will fail, will only cause you to point the finger at the teacher adn blame the teacher

yes

my kids will do it. and i will tell them, that is life. and it is indicative of the journey they will continue on. and my kids will be successful cause i as a parent will be there, demanding, expecting, pushing and helping.

but fuck the kids that dont have parent to do all that

now

tell me how this is the teachers problem.

or YOUR issue because you are demanding an unrealistic solution

[notesdev]

87. Try listening to what I have said

I have not once blamed any teacher. Not once. Why the reflexive defensiveness about it, not just from you but from others here as well?

The best teachers cannot perform well in a system which doesn't permit them to perform well. Likewise the same can be said for the students. The system is designed to preserve the benefits of those who control it, not to educate students, and that is the key problem that we need to solve.

What really appalls me here is that there is no one speaking up for the well being of the students, nobody! I talk and talk about the well-being of students and all I get back is "don't blame the teachers!"

Well, I'm not blaming the teachers, I'm blaming a broken system. Is anyone else here on board with trying to do the right thing for the students first and foremost?

[seabeyond]

94. except those of us that have our kids in the system, and are parenting our kids

demanding that they perform in the school, KNOW that it is all in palce to provide for the student. so when you blame the system as a failure, and not allowing the student an education, when we watch our own children learn beyond what we ever do, we know your post is bullshit.

what part of that do you not get.

what part of, .... seeing the 'solution" causing more problems for our kids when the real issues are ignored, do you not get.

you talk about wanting for the kids

well hey, i want for the kids. and i am saying you are doing damage to the kids. you are not helping, you are hurting. you are not addressing the issues of these kids, you are creating false issues.

i ask you, why are you not listening.

[NotThisTime]

162. And what about those of us who send our kids as you indicate and they sit there learning NOTHING or

worse yet teaching parts of their class as teachers helpers? That's great for my student to do, however my student should be learning too... not sitting there bored out of their mind with material that is years below them.... It's a problem on both ends of the spectrum. I am downing teachers, I don't like the process, there are some teachers who shouldn't be teaching, there are a lot of administrator's who should be in another line of work and by god we should recognize every kid learns differently and at a different rate, meaning that at any given age or grade they could be doing very different things than what one might consider to be normal. At no point in our Educational system is this allowed for, except at the very final end when they can take AP courses perhaps they should have taken years before.

[seabeyond]

165. now you want to tailor make school for each individual child? what are you doing

about your childs boredom at school?

i dont know your system. i dont know where you are at. i dont know what you have done to address this.

every kid is bored in school. have you ever, in a lifetime, heard a child that is not bored in school. regardless, i hear this often. the kid is bored. needs more challenging work. he is misbehaving, doing poorly simply cause he is bored.

i was bored when i went to school too.

that will never change. oh the grandness of having the child that is the exemplary student. anal retentive. front row. remembers everything, has a list and checks it twice. loves school. love being taught to

i am not finding that student we keep wanting our children to be

i have made sure my kids are in the most challenging AP courses. that is up to the parent. the parent (if child is not recommended) then has to go to the school and tell them, they want the child in that class. then the child has to perform. pre AP? you dont have any of those programs. elementary had gifted program. middle school has pre AP courses. high school pre and AP courses.

i do know, whatever does come our way, that i do not give my kids an out trashing the teacher, school, system or the kids boredom. it does not help the kid at all

[laughingliberal]

187. I'm old but not so old I don't remember my school days and I can't recall believing it was my

teacher's job to make sure I learned anything. Looking back on it, I recall being pretty aware that I was expected to learn. I think it involved knowing I needed to listen in class and ask questions, do my reading assignments and my math homework. Especially math was a little hazy for me. I would go home, work on my homework. If I got stuck, I would ask my parents about it. If it was still not clear, I took the problem back to class with me and asked the teacher to explain it.

What a strange concept that I should just have been able to show up there and have a teacher pour the knowledge into my head and the world would start demanding she be fired if the knowledge was not found there.

[seabeyond]

188. and be entertained to assure absolutely no boredom touch us.... nt

[Dappleganger]

61. It's not the teacher's fault.

It's the parents/family units who refuse to take responsibility to prepare their children to learn and follow up at home.

[notesdev]

67. It's a lot of peoples' fault

and until people step up to TAKE responsibility for solving the problem, instead of spending their efforts to avoid responsibility, students will continue to be diploma-wielding ignoramuses who cannot function in a modern society.

[wolfgangmo]

111. RE: fixing it

"This is a problem that must be fixed, and teachers should be at the head of the line demanding it be fixed."

I was once a union rep back in the late 90's and early 00's and I can tell you that every contract negotiation I attended had demands for better services, learning, etc for the students.

We have been banging the drum until our fingers bleed and no one has listened. Tell you don't assume that just because it doesn't get coverage by corporate media it isn't happening, do you?

[notesdev]

129. Given their own platform

The AFT on its website (aft.org) clearly does not put students first (or second, or third). The three feature stories in the sidebar actually have nothing to do with education at all! On its campaigns page likewise, students do not get any priority.

So no media is there to filter the information selectively, we see it from the horse's mouth. And the horse's mouth is not saying that students need a better education.

[Klukie]

155. If you think that those items that are in the sidebar don't have anything to do with education...

then you may lack the critical thinking skills required to see the big picture.

[madfloridian]

134. Did you know that schools are scripted to the test now?

For over a decade now what is taught is dictated to by the test makers and test scorers, both of which operate as free market with no regulation.

Teachers get fired for demanding too much.

I am sick of the lack of respect shown to teachers.

[seabeyond]

139. on the one hand they have to demand the child passes, on the other they work hard not to over stress

the child

yes

that is a lovely consequence of it all.

i have one child i demand a 100 so he helps balance the whole number, and another child i tell, dont stress, go in and do best you can. not that he doesnt pull the 100's in reading, math just pass it, .... but he stresses and makes himself sick

that is from the "public" demanding.

[Jakes Progress]

145. Ah. Another victory notch for the neocons.

Another victim of the hype and lies.

Instead of Faux and rush as sources, try "Manufactured Crisies" by Berliner and Biddle. Get a little real background and then come back.

[seabeyond]

147. exactly. how easy it is with luntz's repeat repeat repeat adn it becomes a truth

regardless of facts adn reality, the nontruth will be believed. very hard to fight against the invisible

[notesdev]

151. Here's the real background

The real background is that I am in a position to hire employees and CANNOT hire any recent graduate other than the most exceptional individuals because they do not possess the basic literacy and mathematical skills for even junior/learning positions.

Nobody here arguing with me is in a position to hire anyone; of this I am certain, because if they were they would have the same complaints about the awful quality of candidates that I have. I have to reject over 50% of applicants on grammar alone, as a person who cannot write proper sentences cannot be put into a position to communicate with customers. And that's just grammar, before I get to anything which I would consider an actual job qualification.

[seabeyond]

158. your conclusions are from apps. you arent in the system. you dont know the system. you refuse

any factual information on the system and what the kids are required to do.

yet

you challenge the kids intelligence.

[Jakes Progress]

161. Oh so uninformed.

I see your point about the school systems. They obviously failed you in the field of analysis and reasoning.

First lesson: If you have only Illiterates applying, you might look at the job and pay schedule you are offering. Contrary to your high opinion of your position as the only one arguing with hiring authority, I am also. I hire people for a range of positions from college level requirements to entry level jobs that don't require a hs diploma. I never have trouble finding qualified applicants. Mostly the problems I have is with self-satisfied smarties who think they are the only ones who know anything.

Second lesson: A number of the applicants don't exhibit a command of higher language skills. For the most part those come from schools where the current test mania is restricting the curriculum to test items. I don't really want to take the time to educate you about testing and what it is doing to the education system. You can read about that in a number of places if you care to become informed. But the irony is that the very things you are arguing for will only exacerbate the problems you say you are finding.

That's why your posts are such a victory for the neocons. You are complaining about problems that you want to make more wide spread. gomer norquist is so happy.

[laughingliberal]

193. I may not have had to hire but I've had to train the new hires at many jobs

and I can tell you the problems with those who don't know a lot of the basics are not limited to people under 30. I've been responsible for helping with the orientation of countless new hires over the years (RN's and LPN's, mind you) and the lack of proper grammar, spelling, and (to my horror) some fairly simple math skills has astounded me. And it didn't start with people under 30. In fact, I don't think I know anyone under 30.

[SmileyRose]

15. Thank RushHannityInc and the boys who brought us 30 yrs of Bushes

Talking America into selling our souls to China so the few could feed the greed required setting up various scapegoats.

[lostnfound]

19. Nonteachers who want to run the show from a central location have used think tanks

and white papers published in the media to turn public sentiment against teachers for decades.
America's schools in the 19th century were teacher-run. When some fat cats wanted worker-widgets to be mass produced who would be less likely to oppose their authority, they organized certain small boards and committees to sweep the country almost overnight with change. Every time they want change, they stir up crises and blame the teachers. It's what they did back in 1910, and again and again every twenty years since. Teachers have been disempowered through these processes so that they will end up forced into the role of pedagogue and out of the role of educator.

"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled.” Plutarch

[aikoaiko]

24. They hate the " government schools"

We don't hear that language much anymore, but some of the "accountability" rhetoric is cover.

[GoCubsGo]

39. Exactly right.

Funny how they leave the private school instructors out of it all, eh?

[MattBaggins]

49. Accountability is only for the teachers though

None for the students, parents, administrators and of course; not even a hint of it for the vulture capitalists that want to take over local school districts.

[seabeyond]

50. this is EXACTLY what it is and so clear, obvious, patterned, adn we on the left fell for it

hook, line and sinker

[marmar]

26. The Corporate Mindf**k of Americans has unfortunately been very successful.....

[seabeyond]

31. what amazes me is the total ineptness of the people that insist the teachers are at fault with kids

not graduating or refusing to learn.

the education is there. the opportunity is there. the academics are beyond what we did in my days. the rules much more strident in keeping kids in school. expectations are higher than our day. and still

there are the adults that come on these threads insisting, demanding the teacher makes the kid graduate.

yet

there is nothing, of course, they can helpfully give anyone on exactly how to do this. because it isnt about the teachers.

[azurnoir]

34. What is about then? n/t

[seabeyond]

48. parents, kids, society as a whole. the knowledge that not all kids are meant

to go thru academics so better damn well have alternatives for them. a society where lower income has parents out of home and not focused on kid and education. one parent family, grandma raising the kids, desperate to survive adn education has no part in their lives. an embracing of stupid. a culture that continually attacks the education system and teacher... repeat, repeat, repeat.... creating problems that do nto even exist.

[Klukie]

53. You nailed it !!!!

Society has placed unrealistic expectations on our teachers and it is going to destroy our educational system if we don't get it right.

[SocialistLez]

58. I'm fine with HIGH expectations

provided we actually put our money where our mouth is and give public schools the support they need.
I realize money doesn't solve everything but if people want change in schools, they need to get involved.

I realize you said unrealistic expectations and I'm talking about HIGH expectations.

There just needs to be a culture shift in this country.

[seabeyond]

63. the thing about it is, those of us, teachers and parents, that have HIGH expectation

of out students/kids are generally satisfied with academic performance. i remember when kids were in lower grades, i would tell teacher expect/demand out of my kids. our expectations are high in this house and i wanted it reinforced in the schools.

another problem is today, there is like something wrong with demanding/insisting of our kids. as if it is an abuse or something. well, if you dont have any expectations, that is exactly what you will get from people/kids

[SocialistLez]

81. It was pretty much understood

my parents wanted a lot out of me.
My dad was very involved during my elementary school years. All of my teachers knew his name and he knew them.
He'd bring donuts for the class about once a month and he came to a lot of the parent-teacher conferences.

He taught me how to read before I entered Kindergarten and helped me a lot with my homework.

Nowadays you have kids in pre-school who have hardly been read to and don't know their ABCs and don't know how to count to 20.
I used to work with little pre-school kids as a volunteer and I was amazed at how much these kids DIDN'T know at this age that I knew.
I know everyone learns at a different rate but kids should at least be read to.

I work in a library and many times the parents won't check out books for their kids. They'll be surfing Facebook and they'll make their child sit right there beside them. If it were my kid, I'd read to them for a little bit, pick out a few coloring sheets for them and THEN hop on Facebook. The kids get restless and then the parents are yelling at them because they want something to do. :banghead:

[seabeyond]

92. i send my kids off to find their books. all the library employees know them.

kids will ask for a new author that could interest them. we have shelves and shelves and shelves of books in kids room. books have always been presents. one year son wanted five books as his santa present. books are the only thing i will readily, without issue, repeatedly, buy for the kids, for years.

we have four magazine subscriptions that come to our house. time, smithsonian, national geograhic and boy life.

i have literally had friends and family members tell me how abusive i am to kids because of the adult books they read and the expectations in this house. that kids should be allowed to be kids.

my kids dont feel like they havent been allowed to be kids.

i actually have adults brag.... i dont read no books.

and their kids fail. the parent blames the teacher. regardless of how many time the kid is called on something, i watch these parents make excuses or put the blame on the teacher, letting their kid off the hook. and then the kid fails. and the parent blames the school

i shale my head, and say, you set kid up for failure, my will be successful. even a bad teacher, i put onus on my sons to figure out how to succeed.

i am truly amazed, and sad, seeing the attack on school system. i was hoping my kids would get out before damage was really done. i dont know that the youngest will make it though.

[SocialistLez]

180. If they're old enough to find their own books

I don't care.

There is just one little girl who likes her mom to help her find books and read to her (she's about 4 or 5) and her mom is always more interested in Facebook.

[AngryAmish]

57. I wonder what the less educated are going to do in the future.

All the labor intensive jobs that less educated or less intelligent people did in the past are getting automated. (Heck, even higher level skills like airplane pilots are being automated). Truck driver? In 40 years robots will do that. UPS person? Robot. Receptionist? About half gone today, replaced by robots (voice mail). Soon a better AI will completely replace them. Postal carriers? Replaced by robots (email, texting). Soon enough the physical work of delivering the mail will completely be replaced by robots. Sorting was replaced by robots about 20 years ago.

Even in creative fields (advertising) a lot of the work that used to be done by people is done by machines.

So what is someone who struggles to finish high school with an 85 IQ gonna do in the future? 16% of people have 85 IQs or lower.

[seabeyond]

65. this is my huge concern. this is where the attention should be focused.

this is the problem that needs to be solved.

and to me, not only a waste of time to keep batting head up against the wall to get all children educated and in the academic world, i wonder why we dont start addressing the real issue that people like you and i can recognize so easily and clearly, here on the old net.

[AngryAmish]

143. A lot of parents will freak when they are told their kid should not go to college

That is what you run into. Plus shop and skilled trade training is very expensive.

[seabeyond]

148. one of the problems today is a lot of parents refuse to face reality.

not to mention other part of society.

i have a high iq. school was easy for me. i was not meant to go to college. i could not sit in the class, motivate myself to follow the rules.

didnt/doesnt mean i am not smart. i am trainable. i have a strong work ethic and was always a valued employee and a successful employer.

maybe this ought to be something we honestly discuss too.

[Michigan-Arizona]

140. seabeyond, thank you for putting it into word's that I wanted to say! n/t

[azurnoir]

159. thanks just what I expected all the PC mouthings

that indeed hide but not very well IMO an astounding amount of covert class-ism and racism, do I blame teachers 100% no but in many cases particularly in inner-city schools they do hold some of responsibility but due to well meaning stereo-types have a very convenient out.
Before you jump I have 4 kids who have attended schools in either Minneapolis or St Paul and have experienced exactly what I stated my daughters I have 3 are tri-racial their Dad is 1/2 Black and 1/2 American Indian, all 3 were placed into remedial classes in reading at first grade as a matter of course, this was even though they could read very well, the teachers did not even check or test, when I called them on this what was stated to me was that a child of their obvious background ie "single mother on welfare living in projects could not do any better oh so sorry", yes these things were stated to me as FACT more than once, problem was my kids were from a 2 parent home, not on welfare and did not live in "the projects". Were my daughters removed from remedial classes once this was established NO even though the tutors teaching these classes recognized they did not belong there, I must hand to a couple of them who went outside of their curriculum and allowed to them to materials that were at their actual level which BTW was above whatever grade level they were at, mind you this was prior to NCLB. My 3rd daughter we decided to send to a tribal funded American Indian school and guess what NO such problem she regularly won academic honors
when I read how minority kids just don't do as well because x,y, and z I always must think is that truly the case or is it so much an ingrained stereotype that these kids do not do as well because they are simply not expected to do as well? And I do recognize that what I stated as my experience is not across the board but I do believe some of the problem, IMO the entire system is sick and there is no one thing or one category of things that can be changed in short there is no easy fix

[seabeyond]

167. didn't you have an agenda all prepared to put my answer in a box.

how many years ago was this... firstly. because truly, i do not want to assume, before i give you an answer. and when this happened to you matters.

secondly, my kids have gone to private, low income public and high income public. i have seen it all and i am not seeing a lot of difference in any of those schools, regardless of the income. one of the most surprising things for me was the desperate teacher when i focused my attention and time on my child and his performance and supported her as a teacher. when i stated we were a team of three looking for the win win win. even in a private school, the teachers are so conditioned to believe they will not have the support of the parent or the participation of the parent.

now listen closely, ... i am talking a private school. a low income public school (which was probably the best run with parental participation). and a high income public.

so your assumptions to my post is incorrect.

it is not just the low income family or school environment dealing with this. it is all income, all family lifestyles and nothing about PC

and lastly, though i have never had a situation that has not been workable with an adm in any of the schools my kids have gone to, and i have never seen a child stuck into remedial reading without testing, seeing how the kids are immediately tested for reading levels in lower grades cause they are so diverse and reading so important, i can not really address your experience, not having been there.

[azurnoir]

172. well it may help to know that at the Native American school

when I was speaking with a teacher I mentioned that I had not encountered the same types of problems that I had at the schools attended by my older daughters and she inquired further about the schools and teachers involved and one of them she said in her own words was known to be a "racist B#tch" I was quite stunned at that to say the least
you are most likely right though the problem is widespread I truly believe that the system is lacking and actually needs to go back to basics so to speak and IMO NCLB has exacerbated those problems ten fold

what really disturbs here is that it seems teachers at least the posting here seem unusually resistant to any accountability

[seabeyond]

178. because the solution is corporatizing the schools. there are teachers here and there

that are not doing their job. as there was teachers not doing their job in our days and our parents days. reality. i heard the horrors of the public school and started my kids out in private. i realized by the time son was in fourth grade, he was not getting the academic diversity and stimulation and advancement of the public schools. since putting kids in public schools, i have not seen the issue that a group in the nation is so vocal about. i have worked within the schools. i have talked to the teachers, their goals with students, the challenges of the teachers and adm. uppermost, they have the best interest of the child. not perfection, but to know that they see their challenge as educating the children (not perfectly) then that goes a long way for me.

BUT

i will also say, that over the years i have watched my children start all the subjects at a younger age. hit subject deeper than we did in our time. have a more well rounded education, and intensive education than we had

so i really resent the hell out of the people that have no concept of what the kids are learning, telling me they are not learning the same as what we did in our time. the kids are learning and doing MORE.

[MattBaggins]

51. The parents and vultures that see dollar signs from education

My daughter is struggling a little bit in school but I don't blame the teachers. Her failings are my fault.

[seabeyond]

54. or your challenge..... my kids have struggle and will struggle and address it and move on

or, not be a parent and the child will sink and drop out. school is merely the first lessons into the real world. we work with them, gently putting onus on them until they get to the point they recognize the struggle, acknowledge, address, find a solution.

life

i hear ya matt

[azurnoir]

160. so according to you teaching is the parents job the onus is on parents

as you stated wow why then do we have teachers at what point does onus cross over from parents supplementing what is being taught in schools and parents doing the actual job?

[seabeyond]

177. in the 11 yrs and 8 yrs kids have gone to school, i have seen 3 poor teachers.

and even at that i am not going to say that they are teachers that should be fired, but their teaching style and/or personality so conflicted with oldest son they were poor teachers. but then he has a learning handicap and has not been allowed to use that as an excuse, though it helps when i have the schools and teachers at the least, working with him. it does not always happen. and when that happens, he has to ensure his own education. i cannot expect every individual child to be individually taught to. we (parent adn son) have had to recognize and find tools that will address his issues to allow success.

2nd grade the teacher so disorganized and free flowing she fit with many kids in the classroom. with oldest sons issue, he was lost and confused and a total mess in that class. when i realized the issue (way into the year) and we had only started working on his learning issues, then yes, ..... the teaching came home. he is a different child and didnt fit in that class. the teacher was useless in my opinion, but then it was a private school. after that year i talked with superintendent what kind of teacher son needed to be in. a hard ass, rule following, organized, structured, routine environment. and he was accommodated.

7th he had a math teacher that he had personality conflict and the math a challenge. and this year he has a spanish teacher that i actually think is a bad teacher. both those situation i as a parent do not have the ONUS. he is old enough, it is on HIS shoulder to ensure he gets a B or above. tutoring, after school, whatever it takes. that is the reality of the real world. he will have co workers and employers he doesnt get along with or are lousy at their job. HE has to figure out how to make it work for him.

i have yet to find a poor teacher with any of youngest son.

[laughingliberal]

194. As I recall from my long ago school days the onus was on me and my parents were the ones who made

sure I knew that. I had books. I had classes. My parents were available to help with homework if I got stuck. I don't recall that the deal was I just had to show up and the teachers would pour the knowledge into my head. And I don't remember my parents being mad at teachers if I was struggling with a subject. I do remember them meeting with teachers to find out what could be done and them helping me with it.

No, I recall the onus was clearly on me and I don't remember a time when I ever thought it was on anyone else.

[Iggo]

32. Mobs hate teachers.

[stray cat]

35. Many Americans have to perform competently to keep their job

and if they are incompetent or laid off they don't get paid their salaries for doing nothing. Just like Americans feel about politicians who have health care but claim they deserve it along with their pensions and still claim they are underpaid.

Like any job - there are many awesome hard working teachers - but the label teacher by itself doesn't make you hard working and competent. Just like the term dem doesn't mean you think they are good dems you want to elect every year.

[MattBaggins]

52. Now here you have the classic mindset of Americans

We have this drilled into our heads. Hate anyone who you perceive to have a better job then yourself. If they are getting a better deal it is at your expense.

I hate to say it but you can really sum up our country as a bunch of kids that cry and stomp their feet if they think some one else got a bigger piece of cake.

[azurnoir]

163. The poster said nothing of the sort

and now after reading this I suspect YOU are a teacher, your reply to my earlier post had me a bit boggled but this one nailed it, as another poster pointed out the priorities of AFT do not really put the students all too high on agenda
as to your "summing up" of our country that kind of mindset really speaks for it self and does not speak well for the mind holding such beliefs

[newportdadde]

37. Propoganda - corporations want the union destroyed and the pensions in their pockets.

I'm in my 30s.. not that old but 'in my day' teachers were respected by our community, the same level in many ways as a firefighter or a police officer. Something has changed since I was in school, I saw it first hand when my wife taught several years ago. Now the relationship between parent and teacher seems to not be one of respect but one of an employer and a worker. Many parents see teachers as nothing more then a daycare provider and if their kid is having trouble then its obviously something wrong with the teacher. It is the 'just fix it!' attitude.

At the heart of all of this is propoganda and greed. Teachers are now under fire and it will not stop until you drop your kid off at GE elementary academy ran by an ever chaning tide of low paid teachers with high turnover. Any group which can operate as a large voting block.. ie unions is a target, teachers are the current target. There is a lot of money in teaching, not in doing the teaching but in the 'industry' and private corporations want it. Teachers also have really nice pension/retirement sitting out there, also very sexy, but this time to the government and Wall street.

Parents who send their kids to private school salivate at the idea of a voucher of say 5k to offset their 10k bill. Too bad they are so fucking stupid they can't realize that if everyone has that 5k voucher the private school will just bump to 15k.

The sad thing is they will get it eventually, they hold all the cards. The american public.. well they are angry, they are angry about the lack of jobs or if employed the crap pay and benefits and they will glady follow along. It is easier to destroy so they will walk along those corporations and glady help tear it down, it makes them feel better.

[erinlough]

77. wonderful summary right on the mark. Follow the money. nt

[wolfgangmo]

149. +1

Right on the money. My brother in law is exactly like this. He's a rampant teabagger and unemployed. He blames the government.

Oh, and he's for vouchers and his kids are in catholic school. He's salivating at the thought of getting "his money" back from the government. Of course if he's ever paid 5K in taxes in ANY year I'll eat my hat.

[Dr Morbius]

40. Well, there's one thing that the right is very good at, and that is...

...giving people someone to blame for their troubles. Generically, this scapegoat is the liberal or the Democrat. In terms of education, the scapegoat is the teacher. Almost never do we hear anyone suggest the responsibility for the child's education should be borne by the parents, and even rarer still is the idea that the kids themselves should be held responsible.

Education is difficult. It takes a series of good teachers with textbooks and materials, and the teachers need to be held accountable. It also takes parental involvement, which has gotten less prevalent since our corporate masters decreed both parents need to work (by driving down wages). And it takes a committed student. If any of these three fail, the whole process fails. This is mere common sense; it's self-evident. But all you need to do is give people someone to blame, and then they don't have to feel guilty. Both parents can keep working and whatever they say, the powers-that-be fully know productivity is where wealth comes from.

Do Americans hate teachers? No, Americans scapegoat teachers. Slightly different.

[philly_bob]

41. Some Americans hate educated people in general. (nt)

[hobbit709]

42. Idiocracy is rapidly becoming a documentary.

[frustrated_lefty]

43. I think there's a general disgust with the American educational system

Our educational system is based almost entirely on rote memorization. That's how success or failure is measured, for the teacher and the student. Little, if any, effort is devoted towards teaching how to analyze, interpret or even make the most basic sense out of a given set of statements. Even at the supposed highest levels of academia, you find the same thing. Medical school focuses on memorization rather than diagnostics. Look at the Graduate Record Exam, which is sort of like the SAT for entry to graduate school...it has three sections in the basic exam: verbal, math and logic. BUT, if you look at graduate school entrance requirements, the logic section is invariably ignored. Verbal analogies are the closest thing to real thought found on any of the standardized tests.

The system rewards those things which are quantifiable and easily categorized, and it's not surprising that some instructors perform the minimum basic functions required to earn their paycheck.

It's hard to have respect for teachers who simply regurgitate facts which you are, in turn, expected to regurgitate back. That's a sad facsimile of education, it creates a static environment. Education should excite the mind and promote discovery.

There's a lot about our educational system which could be improved. We should start by valuing education, treating those who instruct our youth as a national resource and pay accordingly. Make teaching positions competitive. Many, if not all, of us have had a favorite teacher at some point, someone who took delight in helping us discover knowledge, achieve understanding. Those teachers with a genuine interest in teaching our children do exist. We don't value them nearly enough.

[SocialistLez]

84. +1

I'm with you on regurgitation.

As I went through school (and I'm fairly young-19) I noticed the change.

I don't blame the teachers for following the rules. The rules of public education are that you're supposed to learn x, x, x, and x in a matter of x amount of days to take x standardized test and make a score of x or above in order to be "proficient" or "advanced."

I also think teachers should be paid more and we should make education more exciting for kids.
I can't say I blame some kids who hate going to school. Sometimes I felt I was better off going to the library and teaching myself. Of course the textbooks in American schools are heavily censored. There's a lot students aren't learning.

::sigh::

[Klukie]

45. I see an element of blame among parents...

They like to blame teachers for their lack of parenting which could contribute to the vibe your feeling! I love my child's public school and her teachers are just great!!!!!

[hayu_lol]

55. Some points to ponder...

I remember when my kid was in public school(been 11 years now that he has been out). Lots of parent-teacher meetings, parent-administration meetings. Every meeting had the same people showing up...a fairly small group of parents who cared...so much the same that we all knew each other by the time our kids graduated.

Teachers were enthusiastic in the earlier years. We who cared literally told them we had their backs. That helped some. Never did see the 'failing' student's parents at those meetings.

Administration and School District 'rulers' were the people that created the problems for the teachers we backed. Teachers could do with some support behind letting them teach and the collateral jobs be given to staff, other than teachers, to allow the teachers the ability to teach.

Example is that school shooting recently where a teacher, holding a Ph. D and doing parking lot patrol(a teacher being a security guard?)stopped the action. Seems to me, if collateral jobs are necessary, that a math teacher with a doctorate ought to be able to coach students needing math help(or any other subject for that matter)instead of watching parking lots.

If today's teachers were allowed to concentrate on just teaching, smaller class size would help, more money to keep teachers teaching--why should just bankers and CEOs be making all the big money(salaries for school supers have gone through the roof--and they tend to hide in their offices).

Get behind your student's teachers...show them that they have parental support. Watch the classrooms blossom again. Kids that will not do the work...maybe just do the rest of the kids a favor and remove this bunch from the classrooms.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. +1,000,000

[Klukie]

79. I couldn't agree with you more...on all points!!

[SocialistLez]

82. +1

While I wouldn't advocate removing those kids from the classrooms, it would be nice if the consequences for acting up weren't so peverse.

It's like, you act up in class and then you get sent home for 1-3 days and you're just sitting at home watching tv, doing whatever you want. What kind of punishment is that?

With the failing kids, it does boil down to the parents. I'll give them some slack if they're a single parent and they're working two jobs and maybe they don't have time to attend a parent teacher conference. At the same time, there is always the Boys & Girls club. A lot of my teachers were willing to stay after school with me or come to school early to help me with things I was having problems with.There's no reason a parent couldn't email the teacher and say, "Hi, I'm so and so's mom and I realize they're having problems in your class. Is there any way you can meet so and so at this time to give him/her some extra help?"

[political_Dem]

86. The Bushes, RNC, Corporate Behemoths and Right Wing Media are to blame.

These folks pushed an anti-intellectualism agenda for the past thirty years. It was their purpose to keep the masses stupid.

They used the persecution of intelligent and honest people as an deterrent to keep others silent. And about a generation later, their followers are quickly becoming what "quintessential Americans" (in their view) are supposed to be like: easily lead, loud-mouthed, uncouth and proud of their ignorance.

Anyone else in another country would be ashamed of the vast ignorance of the national populace and would strive to change that.

In America, stupidity is not only praised especially in entertainment and in the media; it is encouraged.

So, is it any wonder that folks like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and the Tea Queen herself, Caribou Barbie are held up by the public with the utmost reverence and fascination?

It's sickening that America has become a culture of folks who are suspicious of erudition, intellect and foreign languages.

The only time smarts are involved is when it is attached to entitlement and elitism. It would be fostered in a way to separate the "have and the have-mores" (to take a phrase from the oft-remembered Fahrenheit 9-11.

[Hepburn]

88. It's a lack of respect more than hate, IMO.

IMO, some seem to feel that ANYONE can teach and that it is a easy job. I was a teacher before I went to law school and I sure found out that many times teaching was a very thankless job.

[Bitwit1234]

89. The GOP is making an effort to "get rid of liberal teachers"

and put those with religious furor and right wing policies in place. I tell you, people don't believe me. They want to change what our kids are taught. Remember Hitler and his youth groups.

[Dr Morbius]

98. A very good point. You're probably right. (nt)

[geardaddy]

90. No they hate unions.

At least that's what we've been told to hate.

[lib2DaBone]

95. Americans don't hate teachers...but REPUBLICANS do...

The Florida SB-6 was instigated by non-other than Jeb Bush and his Florida Neocon buddies. (Marco Rubio, Connie Mack, State Sen John Thrasher)

The local school boards control a huge amount of tax money. This isn't about education.. it's about privatizing the schools and the Repukes getting their "hands-on-the-cash".

[havocmom]

104. seems more than a couple DUers have teachers on their list of scapegoats

Have had to take antacids lately when I read some threads about schools and teachers.

[seabeyond]

115. i truly just shake my head. my kids do more academically, and earlier than we did. people ignore

fact.

i have concluded the most amazing sub thread with a poster that projects concern, yet in every instance ignore fact and reality to create the school system as the evil.

i would truly be stumped if i did not understand it is agenda they speak to, not fact.

what is sad, is they will continue to cause unnecessary destruction with our kids education with little concern, as they self righteously speak out to the concern of our children.

[havocmom]

121. Yep. When I hear '...for the children' I duck because shit is usually about to fly

Lots of talk about 'for the children' but nobody wants to pay the damned bill. Too few want to raise their own kids, too many want to whip teachers for their own failures. We institutionalize teacher responsibility/performance based on tests that can only be passed if/when SOCIETY passes the test on raising the young to be healthy, functioning, THINKING individuals.

[seabeyond]

122. yup. nt

[havocmom]

96. Lately, I have noticed a lot of Americans hate ANYBODY who sets standards for behavior

So much easier to maintain delusions that I/We are #1 if we can denigrate & deride those who point out where we need to do some learning, work, hell, just make an effort.

Teachers and co-workers who raise the bar are hated by too many because we have become a lazy, deluded society. The fact that just about EVERYTHING is falling apart while we, as a society, keep insisting WE'RE #1! backs up my theory.

Re Obama and DEMS in charge: Yes, some of the illogical and vehement opposition IS about race, but most is about the unwillingness of too many to
A) recognize there are a lot of things that need fixing
B) make some effort (or pay some taxes) to fix anything

Teachers & reformers {read as: progressives} want us to grow & be better. If we need to work, improve, it means we are not perfect. It means reality is making our comfy delusions difficult to maintain. And yet, even most idiots sense there are things which are seriously wrong, so we need our scape-goats.

When some set standards and move to make improvements, they are 'elitists' and treated as near-criminals; surely they must hate America if they want to tweak things here and there.

We need our scape-goats. Teachers and reformers are easy targets. They ask society to do its homework, and that gets in the way of pep rallies.

[Klukie]

101. +1

[frustrated_lefty]

117. Part of what bothers me is that we've really crippled teachers

There's really nothing they can do to enforce discipline, and increasingly they face a quite literally threatening student-body. I know that every generation is absolutely certain things were "different" when they were growing up, but I've also witnessed some of this as a student and as a teacher. Something went wrong during the 80s and 90s.

The teacher used to be part of the social network responsible for the raising of the child. The teacher was a supplement to the parents, not a replacement. It seems that parents play little part in their child's education these days, and threaten litigation if a teacher tries to take on the added responsibility. You can't teach my child that! Not science, not "morally offensive" literature, not sex education, not even common courtesy.

I can't agree to a vision of all teachers as reformers or progressives, not in this day and age. But, a lot---even most---of the flaws which exist today are ones which we, as a society, have engendered.

[seabeyond]

118. i am so with you. i watch it daily. people that arent a part, are the ones yelling the loudest

what is going on in the educational system, without a toe in it.

[havocmom]

124. All teachers are NOT progressives/reformers. Sorry you misunderstood

But, lazy, delusional idiots hate teachers AND progressives/reformers for many of the same reasons: We expect growth and improvement. A big hunk of society seems greatly offended that anyone should so inconvenience them with such homework.

Yes, society has heaped impossible restrictions on teachers, while at the same time, ducked societal responsibilities to children AND teachers. Society wants to be responsible for less and less so it dumps more and more on specific groups then berates and punishes for the guaranteed failure.

It DOES take a village. Problem is the village ain't doin its part.

[frustrated_lefty]

130. Sorry for my misunderstanding, wasn't trying to be confrontational

[havocmom]

132. I know, wasn't trying for confrontational in my explanation either

I figure I just didn't get my point across and needed to supplement to avoid confusion for others too. :hi:

I love your screen name. Says it all for a lot of us!

[havocmom]

128. What went wrong in the 80s & 90s was the fruition of changes

In the mid to late 70s, I noticed a big push by fundy/ultra conservative types to enter local politics via school boards. Couple that with tax revolts and the strangling of budgets and people too busy 'getting a life' to bother to raise their children..... the mess was inevitable

And frankly, tin foil hat aside, the mess has served the very top tier as society seems to not be high on critical thought, reason, common logic. Sure makes the work force and middle income investor pool easy to manipulate and exploit. Kiss the middle class goodbye. The poor were always doomed.

Yeah, something went wrong in the 80s & 90s. The agenda of the uber-rich started baring fruit.

[seabeyond]

141. but.... having stepped into it at the end of 70's, we too abrogated our responsibilities

i ask my friends of my generation.... what happened. we stopped follwoing all rules, it became about "i deserve, i want, what about me" and the reults we see in our children. my grace is i was way old before having kids and saw results from friends and their missteps. not to mention being older and having gotten the play out of my system.

[havocmom]

168. nah, I was the bane of many school boards

:evilgrin:

[wolfgangmo]

153. LOL.

I remember my first teaching job. I revamped the curriculum in my courses (I was hired as a program director believe it or not) and the curriculum had not been updated in over 20 years so I set up a phased in program to update the curriculum and raise the bar over a 5 year period eventually leading toward meeting or exceeding national and international (IB) standards. But the first year of the phase in only raised to bar so that we weren't even meeting state levels for minimum competancy.

My first parent teacher meeting was a shout fest with parents acusing me of making their little darlings do college level work. "This isn't medical school!" one parent yelled. I calmly explained the program and the reasons for it, including but not limited to how such work could lead to college admission and scholarships and some of them relented, but there was this one nutty mother who spent the rest of my time there trying to get me fired. She went so far as to try to set me up (using her daughter) for a child molestation charge. I was investigated but it turns out her daughter skipped school that day when the mother claimed that I had lured the child into the basement.... It was lurid and demeaning but I was cleared of all charges and the local police sgt. had a heated lecture with the mother about jail time if she tried that shit again.

Excellence is not valued by many. But it is valued by most IF you can connect the dots for them and make tangible the intangible benefits that education can provide.

[ensho]

109. many do - my father said teachers weren't born they were found under

rocks.

he said this when I was in elementary school. I was horrified as I liked my teachers. it turned out he didn't like me either.

he also said phys. ed. teachers were lesbians.

[havocmom]

133. Congratulations on turning out to be such a wonderful person

despite some of the toxic soil you had to grow up in! :hug:

[lonestarnot]

120. Disgusting!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

123. Teachers this administration's version of "Welfare Queens".

Lazy, incompetent, and bilking the taxpayers out of their money.

Ronald Reagan would be proud of the invective hurled against them.

[Dinger]

152. duncan and obama don't give a shit (nt)

[depakid]

135. Just anoher symptom of a nation in decline...

It really is impressive to see how far the vitriol has gone- especially when you can see for yourself the respect with which teachers are held in other, more successful nations.

[tonysam]

136. It's not "Americans." It's the neoliberals, in conjunction with the World Bank,

who are pushing for the destruction of public education WORLDWIDE in order to limit upward mobility and access to higher education.

Read the "We Are in Deep Doo Doo" thread featuring remarks by writer and professor Lois Weiner, who has studied in depth worldwide trends in public education. It isn't conspiracy nonsense but is a FACT, and it is being pushed by politicians such as our president.

The World Bank regards education is mostly a waste of money because few jobs require ANY education beyond seventh or eighth grade. Therefore why have teachers who are skilled and educated because THAT is a waste of money.

Teachers' unions worldwide are a major stumbling block against privatization efforts happening worldwide.

Neoliberalism, which does NOT work, must be stopped.

[laughingliberal]

195. The entire problem right there in your one post! nt

[Grand Taurean]

138. Americans have a subtle hatred of intellectuals and intellectualism.

[Jakes Progress]

146. Teachers are the flashy thing that ed-corp us using

to distract the public from the needs of schools, needs that would preclude their corporate takeover of tax funded, public schools. Good teachers, bad teachers. Not the problem. But they make for a nice distraction while our administration partners with WalMart and newt gingrich to transfer schools to private enterprise.

[mod mom]

154. The ones that hate intellectualism do (think folks like limbo & beck)

[LWolf]

156. Teachers are perfect scapegoats for so many things. nt

[n.michigan]

206. Yes. Granholm (MI) -using contracted pensions with R's to make up for budget failures

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. Yep, part and parcel of the tradition of anti intellectualism

in the US.

It's gotten virulent, but it's been in the water, as they say, since oh the beginning.

It boils down to a distrust of book learnin' and experts.

The Age of Unreason by Jacoby is pretty aproachable and a highly recommended read on this subject.

[mrmpa]

166. Hate here-Respect in Europe

About five years ago, I took a ferry from Greece to Italy. When I debarked in Rome, I had about a mile walk to the train station. A young couple from Germany offered me a ride to the station. They of course asked what I did in America. I said I was a high school history teacher. The woman said "that's wonderful." The young man asked "what do you teach about the war." I said "the truth." He looked at me and said "good." I had many conversations with Europeans in Greece, Austria, Germany and Italy, they all showed respect for what I do. But I do wonder if maybe they felt sorry for me, because of what they hear about our schools.

[Caliman73]

169. I think that many are ambivalent about teachers.

My take is that we have a series of different processes going on here. Their seems to be a historical mistrust of Scholars and Educators from the top down in many societies. While education is seen as a tool to acquire enlightenment, or power, or self improvement by some, it is seen as a threat by people in power, when others start to acquire knowledge. Therefore those in power tend to be suspicious and a tension is created between people who are educated and who are educators, and those who are less interested in education. When Adlai Stevenson (arguably one of the smartest men in government at the time) was running for President against Eisenhower, he was regularly ridiculed because he was smart. People "Liked Ike". They did not want the egghead Stevenson running the country. We saw the same thing with W and Al Gore. There seems to be an ingrained discomfort with people who are "too smart" which I find interesting.

Second, there is an outright hatred from the right for unions and public institutions in general. Education, which is a large expenditure (as it should be) is always under attack. Conservatives pick away at it every chance they get. They use people's natural reaction of "I can educate myself/my children just as good" (notice "good" was put in intentionally to point out incorrect word use) in order to wedge between people who would typically think that knowledge and education is a good thing, but then in another breath think that teachers are overpaid or have cushy jobs. We have seen just and outright attack since Reagan's presidency on all Unions including a continual low level buzz about how "bad teachers are allowed to do nothing and make all this money" and other things which may be true on a very minor scale, but which are pushed as all encompassing truths.

Third, educators (especially K-12) have an increasingly difficult job. They are gatekeepers, counselors, social workers, and security guards. With so many hats and little resources, they are bound to slip up however small the slip up may be. Sometimes there are major problems, but for the most part people like their teachers or their child's teachers until something happens that they don't like.

My wife was a teacher for 10 years and one of her favorite stories of woe was when one of her students was given a failing grade because she had not turned in assignments, failed tests, and cut class. My wife had sent letters home, made calls, and had conferences set up to discuss progress, but had never seen the parent until the F went home. The parent came in cursing and in complete shock as to how their child could have failed. My wife asked both the parent and student, "Did you do your homework? No. Did you study for tests? No. Did you show up for every class? No. Did you do any of the extra credit assignments? No. Why not? I didn't want to. So, do you think it is fair to the students who did all those things even if and when they didn't want to, if I pass you? ..." The parent complained until the principal raised the grade to a D. My wife was made to be the "bad guy". She left teaching after several other incidents like that.

[tonysam]

171. And fourth, there is an organized attempt to destroy public education worldwide

and is spearheaded by the World Bank.

The anti-public education propaganda is designed to make people distrust and hate their government institutions, when the World Bank and its bought-off politicians want to restrict upward mobility. The way to do it is to restrict higher education access (anything above middle school) and to abolish unions.

It's really that simple.

[KonaKane]

170. There is disdain here for anything in the educational institution

Be they public teachers, university professors or what have you. It's a blanket disdain the RW has for intellectualism, that can be traced back to the people who support authoritarian regimes.

Of course, the table-scrap republicans (abused spouse syndrome) gobble this nonsense up, hook line and sinker.

[AnArmyVeteran]

173. Why are so many people who just want a reasonable salary?

Teachers are not very well paid considering what they have to endure. In Texas, the average teacher takes $1,000 out of their pockets just to get the things needed to teach. And they aren't reimbursed. When my wife was a teacher under Bush there were teacher shortages of 45,000 because Bush destroyed the educational system in Texas. While campaigning for governor he promised to eliminate the top-down TEA, Texas Education Agency. But instead, Bush lied and stacked it with anti-teacher business cronies.

Because of the horrible morale caused by Bush's top down education system and forcing teachers to just teach the answers to the state mandated TAAS test 50% of Texas teachers said they wanted to leave teaching within 3 years. Bush didn't give a damn. He was against teachers. During that same period I ran for school board. I live in a very, very conservative area, but the school administration spent millions on a new administration building that was not needed and only stoked the egos of the superintendent and other members of his administration. Everyone's taxes went up. So I ran against the incumbent republican and lost. I was going to tighten the belt of the administration and GIVE TEACHERS A VOICE. But the dumb right wing rednecks just vote republican no matter what. During the campaign I kept getting asked, "Do you favor public prayer in school?" I said I have prayed more in schools during my life than anywhere else. I got a few laughs, but I refused to tell them what they wanted to hear. They wanted me to say I was for FORCED PRAYER in school. It didn't occur to them that if the area became primarily Hindu or Muslim then their children would be forced to pray the prayers of the majority religion. But right wingers NEVER think things through.

Consequently, I lost for that reason and because I limited the amount I spent on the campaign to $500. I made my own signs and used my own money. But my opponent was an insider, a conservative (who supported spending millions on an unneeded administration building), and he worked for a company that was part owner of the bank where the school district kept its money (a huge conflict of interest!). In all district business that involved money his judgement would be tainted or corrupted because he had direct ties and a financial stake in the bank his company owned.

Oh well, most people just count yard signs and vote for the person with the most signs. So even though I made all my signs by hand using my own money, I lost to a guy who was for sale. And conservatives around me are still complaining because now they closed down a perfectly good school to build another one.

Has anyone noticed that local conservatives are not conservative at all? They yell and scream about higher income taxes (even when it applies only to the super rich, but they say nothing about conservatives raising state taxes, fees, licenses and every other way they can gouge the poor and middle class. Why aren't democratic leaders pointing out how hypocritical conservatives are on the state and local levels?

[BlooInBloo]

174. I don't hate them, but education majors are useless for all but the youngest...

Quadruple teacher pay, and remove every administrative barrier to people with real degrees and actual knowledge from entering the profession, I say.

When idiots are the ones "teaching" kids, it's to be expected that idiots are what result from the process.

And then fix parents. That's a much harder problem, though, unfortunately.

[callous taoboy]

175. I'm a teacher and I feel valued by my students and parents. I think the media would like

the public to think that there is a growing animosity toward teachers.

[WinkyDink]

176. Yes. How many of us liked school AND all our teachers? I BECAME one, yet hated some!

[treestar]

179. No, but there are some who expect too much

The little angels have to pay attention and study, it's a two way street and it seems there are some Americans who think the little angel just sits there and teacher inputs.

There can be bad teachers, but still, most are competent but it is a two way street and the brilliant little angel must make an effort and some parents cannot accept that end of it.

[Catshrink]

181. Teachers are afraid to lose their jobs.

We have little job security despite what most people believe. Anyone can be riffed in my district, regardless of seniority or degrees. Obama & Co. are seeking to extend this across the nation with their RTTT bullcrap. We need to have a Secretary of Education who has teaching experience and knows what he's talking about. Arne Duncan is a fraud, a useful tool of the corporate interests seeking to destroy public education: Walmart, Eli Broad, Bill Gates, etc.

[tonysam]

190. And the World Bank, which is spearheading this worldwide. n/t

[DailyGrind51]

182. They hate "tenure", not teachers.

In some Illinois districts, large employers, like Motorola and United, have had massive layoffs with employees out of work for months, yet area teachers union locals seem to strike every time a contract comes up for renewal. Nothing sours parents' attitudes more than having kids come home from school with "Ms. Hibble is going to Hawaii on spring break!", when Mom and Dad are mailing resumes.

[tonysam]

189. They don't know what "tenure" is, and apparently you don't, either.

"Tenure" isn't the same in public ed as it is in higher education. All it is is the "right" of a teacher to have a "due process" hearing, which is almost always rigged in a district's favor.

It is laughably easy to get rid of teachers. Most of them aren't technically "fired" but are "asked" to resign in lieu of a dismissal, which in reality is the same thing. Or else they refuse to take a resignation or aren't "asked" to resign but are put on unpaid administrative leave, which is designed to starve a teacher into submission and resign. Most do so. Districts con teachers into resigning for the simple reason a district doesn't have to pay unemployment compensation. Ignorant teachers will take a "resignation" thinking it will help them in future jobs. It won't. Many school districts and licensing boards will ask if a teacher has "resigned" in lieu of a dismissal. It's basically an admission of guilt in the eyes of other districts.

[DailyGrind51]

199. I DO know, it provides teachers with more job security than that enjoyed by other workers.

I am a State certified teacher who lives in an "employment at will" state. Please forgive my egalitarianism, but I don't believe that one class of worker deserves any more job protection than an other.

You might try cutting the condescension, until you know a little more about the context of a post.

[n.michigan]

208. TENURE- provides "safe" APOLITICAL learning environment for children

The idea is an healthy environment for learning. The quest for knowledge for its own sake. The joy of learning.
And children who are educated, well-rounded, creative and free thinkers- learning free of distorted propaganda, agendas, privatized philosophies.

The lies about education promoted today and the new RTTBottom legislation is quickly killing such a beautiful goal.

[steelmania75]

186. I'd say yes.

[Orsino]

196. Those who don't mature beyond adolescence may retain a lot of resentment.

Do you think George W. Bush can possibly have any good memories of teachers he's encountered? Possibly including Laura?

[Bert]

197. I can think of a couple

One a college teacher who blatantly played favorites and was actually proud of washing out students, especially ones he didn't like, which by definition means they didn't get as much help or guidance as the ones he liked. He even had to take a vacation for screaming at one student. Another student of his swore he was sexist, but I cant pronounce on that since there were few females students in our curriculum, if I had to be I would say it was true. He also regularly fraternized with his undergrad students, even involving drinking. Just totally unprofessional. Told me to get out of an open lab once becuase he 'didn't want anyone to think I was one of his boys'(you can tell we didn't care for each other). Well, I had a few remarks to that that left him walking away, only regret I didn't take it up to the student board.

Another teacher I dont like I never had as a teacher, however he was a retired teacher that ran a fairly simple job of monitoring a small water treatment plant. Well, I got called to fix a problem there on a Friday night and he thought I was arrogrant, mainly I guess because I didn't feel like staying the night on my weekend playing with stuff after I had fixed the problem. An emergency call that I didn't get home from till 3 in the morning. Seems to me like he is still playing the teacher and feels the need to judge everyong he interacts with like he is still in a position of authority.

Overall I dont hate teachers. Loved some and most I've known are just average in their profession. The question is whether they have entitlement issues(tenure?) and whether or not it is too hard to get rid of the bad ones, like you would do in most professions. Also, how do you grade a teacher, by the level of material they teach, by how many people they help, or by some other factor?

[ThoughtCriminal]

198. The tea-baggers are still pissed about

that F- in arithmetic. Cutting schools is payback.

[pitohui]

202. a significant number of us were hit and abused by teachers in our youth

i hate to say "i hate teachers" because i have a number of friends who are teachers and who don't physically or emotionally abuse their students BUT if i judged teachers based on my own experiences only instead of really working hard to forgive...yes...i would hate teachers and i think a lot of people in my age group do feel the same way

there are still schools in america, esp. in the south, where children are beaten by teachers, there is no reason for anyone who respects themselves to love the person who uses a position of power to beat & abuse them

do "all" americans hate teachers, no, but MANY americans have had terrible traumatic encounters w. their teachers and it does complicate the discussion

i was a victim and observer of physical violence by teachers when i was in the single digit ages and i was stalked/sexually targeted by a teacher in college, i'm just not gonna pretend that everybody becomes a teacher because they are a good person, many of them are sociopaths who are into the three months of vacation and the power over a helpless person -- give teachers the same benefits as other workers, NOT far superior benefits that most of them enjoy, AND guarantee that they are required to treat students w. simple human decency

[Catshrink]

203. That "three months of vacation" is a myth.

Many are sociopaths? More than other professions? I don't know, I don't have statistics but that seems like a pretty broad brush you're using.

By those "far superior benefits" you must mean the pension plan which is really a compromise of sorts for the lousy salaries that most of us earn. Our other benefits are on par with those of others.

I think people should demand that teachers are treated with simple human decency. That would be a nice change.

[pitohui]

210. the 3 months of vacation was my little joke

i should have realized that teachers, whose ranks still include many unprosecuted abusers, have little sense of humor for they must know in their hearts that one of the reasons they're resented is because they have harbored and protected monsters

the professor who stalked and harassed me for sex was a sociopath, the administration and the other professors who sheltered him are the true monsters

do you give the pope a pass for protecting the priests who abused? why then do expect us to say "oh that's OK then" even tho most abusive teachers have never paid for their crimes & there is every reason for victims to still best angry

i get one life, telling me that "it was all so long ago" is bullshit when my entire life has been impacted and my standard of living and my ability to work as i please was changed forever because i was unwilling to be raped by a professor

the teachers i know get far superior benefits to other working people, and you are not winning any points by pretending this isn't so

there is no real mystery as to why many people hate teachers, for many children, their first experience of cruelty came at the hands of a teacher

until we acknowledge this, until we're honest about this, i don't see why we should pretend it's some kind of weird irrational thing that many people hate teachers

it's natural and human to hate cruelty

[Catshrink]

212. I hope you get the help you so desperately need.

[tonysam]

205. Your opinion has no bearing on education today

You have no clue what teachers put up with. And you are full of shit if you think they have "far superior benefits"--what a fucking crock. My health insurance wasn't any better than in private industry, and the dental was a joke.

And the "retirement"? Try working in a state which doesn't pay into Social Security, like Nevada and some 14 or 15 states. If you are a midlife teacher and don't have 30 years into SS, YOU GET FUCKED OUT OF A CHUNK OF IT. It's called WEP/GPO, which is nothing more than THEFT. The "pensions" are only good if you have 30 years in, and most teachers don't. I get less than 500 a month IF I wait until I am 65 to collect, and my SS is reduced if I don't get three more years of work in.

I put up with assholes as principals and was thrown out in a rigged hearing where all kinds of criminal acts were committed in order to keep on a negligent principal. She keeps her fucking 100 grand a year job, while I at 55 must start all over again. In another fucking line of work, since I have to DISCLOSE what these MFs at Washoe County School District did to me if I apply on school district applications.

When you have actually worked in a classroom instead of talking about stories from decades ago as a student, then I will take your viewpoint seriously.

[pitohui]

209. a question was asked and i answered it

obv. there are a great many of us still living who suffered several abuse from teachers and you are living in a fantasy world if you think sexual harrassment and play for pay doesn't still go on

hell, physical abuse -- hitting children -- still goes on today in the south

if you refuse to believe that a great many of us were abused by teachers, then you're part of the problem and NOT part of the solution

it's like telling someone who was hit by a nun and raped by a priest that, "it's ok, because that could NEVER happen today"

well, i don't know why it could NEVER happen today, when teachers have such power and they don't often seem to get punished for their crimes -- and, make no mistake, physical assult against a child is a CRIME in any other setting except the home and the classroom, sexual harassment SHOULD be a crime everywhere but when it's the student's word aga. the teacher's, it's the teacher who gets away w/. murder, the student is powerless

i have taught in the past (on a college level) and i have friends who teach but, at the end of the day, if you want to understand why many americans hate teachers, you need to look at all of us who were damaged by teachers who never spent one day in jail for their crimes

pretending this only happened to people decades long ago in a country far, far away across the galaxy does not help your cause and does not inspire anyone to help you

teachers ask too much when they ask victims to forgive when they haven't done their part to clear their ranks of victimizers

and pretending teachers work really, really hard is a joke, they work exactly as hard as they wish, and no harder, the dedicated teachers work hard, the rest do v. damn little and we all know it

[n.michigan]

207. So little push back? BLAME unions compromised by Obama and Duncan Race to the Bottom

Unions are not standing up to the corrupt politicians who are abusing hardworking teachers- sitting ducks.

Time for a million teacher march!

[Catshrink]

211. If only we could get teachers united!

They are afraid or apathetic or unaware. Most of us need to work such long hours we can't spare the energy. Why? Because we care about the children, that's why we put up with it.

[n.michigan]

213. Million Teacher March- How would Obama and Duncan like that modeling of civil rights?

[Catshrink]

214. It would be awesome

it would be good to coordinate it across the country though so that there are marches on state capitols at the same time. With year round schools a lot of teachers can't get off to go -- and damn, I can't afford to go. 6% paycut after last year's 5% and an increase in our share of medical insurance, etc.

[NC_Nurse]

215. Gotta have a scapegoat. It's the RW way. Besides, if you can't blame teachers

for the fact that kids are falling behind, then the fault might lie somewhere else where they don't want to look.

[Dream Girl]

216. I don't think much of them

I had really bad teachers from Jr. through Sr. High. I was motivated, wanted to learn and many, many of my teachers spent the bulk of the class period in the teacher's lunge and let the class room run amok. We weren't bad kids, but it was obvious that the teachers just didn't give a shit. Some teachers would just disappear for weeks at a time and we would have substitute after substitute. Despite having a relatively high IQ, I was ill prepared for college through not fault of my own. It took many years fro me to overcome the deficit.

[dorkulon]

218. Why is it necessary to revere or hate teachers?

Teachers are people. And like people, some of them are great, and some are total assholes. I don't hate teachers, nor do I think they are infallible saints beyond public criticism. How's that?