Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Hillary: India, Pakistan have upset nuclear deterrent balance

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 03:11 PM
Original message
Hillary: India, Pakistan have upset nuclear deterrent balance
Front Page article from The Hindu:
http://www.hindu.com/2010/04/11/stories/2010041158801200.htm

Front Page

Hillary: India, Pakistan have upset nuclear deterrent balance

Narayan Lakshman

‘U.S. working with both countries to ensure that their stockpiles are safeguarded'

The risk of a nuclear attack has increased

U.S. to boost funding for maintaining weapons stockpile


WASHINGTON DC: India and Pakistan have pursued nuclear weapons “in a way that has upset the balance of nuclear deterrent,” Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said on Friday.

That was why the United States was working with both countries “very hard to try to make sure that their nuclear stockpiles are well tended to, and that they participate with us in trying to limit the number of nuclear weapons,” she said.

Speaking at at the University of Louisville, Kentucky, Ms. Clinton argued that the nature of the nuclear threat had changed. “As President Obama has said, the risk of a nuclear attack has actually increased. And the potential consequences of mishandling this challenge are deadly.” Nuclear terrorism presented a different challenge, but the consequences would still be devastating, she said.

Doomsday scenario

Highlighting the growing threat of nuclear terrorism and nuclear proliferation a few days ahead of the 47-nation Nuclear Security Summit in Washington, Ms. Clinton illustrated what a doomsday scenario would look like, given these risks. “A 10-kiloton nuclear bomb detonated in Times Square in New York City could kill a million people. Many more would suffer from the haemorrhaging and weakness that comes from radiation sickness.”

<snip>

Full text of her speech at http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2010/04/139958.htm

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why was this post moved?
Who moved it?
It was originally posted in the Environment/Energy forum: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x241214

Nuclear proliferation is a serious problem with nuclear energy,
as recognized by physicist and Democratic congressman Rush Holt:

"Nuclear proliferation is a problem that humankind has not solved. I don’t want to see us get deeper into a dependency on nuclear power until we demonstrate to each other that we can solve the problem of nuclear proliferation. Because if we don’t, that could be our greatest undoing."

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/rush-holt-on-energy-policy-barack-obama-and-john-holdren/

January 15, 2009, 7:40 am
Rush Holt on Energy Policy, Barack Obama and John Holdren
By JARED FLESHER

Congressman Rush Holt, a Democrat from New Jersey, is one of four physicists now serving in Congress. For nearly a decade he worked as assistant director of the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory at Princeton University. Supporters in his Central Jersey 12th District can be spotted driving around with bumper stickers that say, “My Congressman IS a Rocket Scientist!”

<snip>

Q. What role do you think coal and nuclear should play in America’s energy future?

A. <snip>

On nuclear, the biggest problems are not primarily technological. They have to do with the connection between nuclear processes and weapons. Nuclear proliferation is a problem that humankind has not solved. I don’t want to see us get deeper into a dependency on nuclear power until we demonstrate to each other that we can solve the problem of nuclear proliferation. Because if we don’t, that could be our greatest undoing.

<snip>

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Al Gore: "every weapons-proliferation problem we dealt with was connected to a civilian reactor prog
From a May 24, 2006 interview:

"For eight years in the White House, every weapons-proliferation problem we dealt with was connected to a civilian reactor program."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12743273

Al Gore, movie star, talks of his latest role
Grist magazine interviews former vice president on his climate flick
By David Roberts
updated 12:49 p.m. ET May 24, 2006

<snip>

Grist: Let's turn briefly to some proposed solutions. Nuclear power is making a big resurgence now, rebranded as a solution to climate change. What do you think?

Gore: I doubt nuclear power will play a much larger role than it does now.

Grist: Won't, or shouldn't?

Gore: Won't. There are serious problems that have to be solved, and they are not limited to the long-term waste-storage issue and the vulnerability-to-terrorist-attack issue. Let's assume for the sake of argument that both of those problems can be solved.

We still have other issues. For eight years in the White House, every weapons-proliferation problem we dealt with was connected to a civilian reactor program. And if we ever got to the point where we wanted to use nuclear reactors to back out a lot of coal -- which is the real issue: coal -- then we'd have to put them in so many places we'd run that proliferation risk right off the reasonability scale. And we'd run short of uranium, unless they went to a breeder cycle or something like it, which would increase the risk of weapons-grade material being available.

When energy prices go up, the difficulty of projecting demand also goes up -- uncertainty goes up. So utility executives naturally want to place their bets for future generating capacity on smaller increments that are available more quickly, to give themselves flexibility. Nuclear reactors are the biggest increments, that cost the most money, and take the most time to build.

In any case, if they can design a new generation that's manifestly safer, more flexible, etc., it may play some role, but I don't think it will play a big role.

<snip>
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. Proliferation issues are clearly a topic for the Environment/Energy forum.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yes if they mention energy to any signficant extent.
Otherwise it is off topic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Proliferation is implicitly related to nuclear energy.
so "energy" doesn't have to be mentioned.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. It has to be actually pertinent to energy and environment.
Not some connection people will have to make some spurious jump to make. If the article mentioned proliferation as it relates to nuclear power, then it would be fine. But it doesn't mention nuclear power. I know this is hard for you to understand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. It is actually pertinent to energy and environment, and the article mentions the NPT
which is absolutely connected to nuclear energy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. From the article: "nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT)"
In the light of these risks, Ms. Clinton outlined three main elements of the U.S.'s strategy to safeguard itself and its allies from nuclear attacks: support for the basic framework of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT); a global effort to secure vulnerable nuclear material and enhance nuclear security; and efforts to maintain a safe, secure, and effective nuclear deterrent for the U.S. itself.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Proliferation is also an environmental problem
and is appropriate for E/E just on that account.

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=1208

Dr. Jeff Masters' WunderBlog

Nuclear winter revisited

Posted by: JeffMasters, 2:00 PM GMT on April 10, 2009

In the 1980s and early 1990s, a series of scientific papers published by Soviet scientists and Western scientists (including "rock star" scientists Dr. Carl Sagan, host of the PBS "Cosmos" TV series, and Nobel Prize winner Paul Crutzen) laid out the dire consequences on global climate of a major nuclear exchange between the U.S. and Soviet Union. The nuclear explosions would send massive clouds of dust high into the stratosphere, blocking so much sunlight that a nuclear winter would result. Global temperatures would plunge 20°C to 40°C for several months, and remain 2-6°C lower for 1-3 years. Up to 70% of the Earth's protective stratospheric ozone layer would be destroyed, allowing huge doses of ultraviolet light to reach the surface. This UV light would kill much of the marine life that forms the basis of the food chain, resulting in the collapse many fisheries and the starvation of the people and animals that depend it. The UV light would also blind huge numbers of animals, who would then wander sightlessly and starve. The cold and dust would create widespread crop failures and global famine, killing billions of people who did not die in the nuclear explosions. The "nuclear winter" papers were widely credited with helping lead to the nuclear arms reduction treaties of the 1990s, as it was clear that we risked catastrophic global climate change in the event of a full-scale nuclear war.

Even a limited nuclear exchange can cause a climate disaster
Well, it turns out that this portrayal of nuclear winter was overly optimistic, according to a series of papers published over the past few years by Brian Toon of the University of Colorado, Alan Robock of Rutgers University, and Rich Turco of UCLA. Their most recent paper, a December 2008 study titled, "Environmental Consequences of Nuclear War", concludes that "1980s predictions of nuclear winter effects were, if anything, underestimates". Furthermore, they assert that even a limited nuclear war poses a significant threat to Earth's climate. The scientists used a sophisticated atmospheric/oceanic climate model that had a good track record simulating the cooling effects of past major volcanic eruptions, such as the Philippines' Mt. Pinatubo in 1991. The scientists injected five terragrams (Tg) of soot particles into the model atmosphere over Pakistan in May of 2006. This amount of smoke, they argued, would be the likely result of the cities burned up by a limited nuclear war involving 100 Hiroshima-sized bombs in the region. India and Pakistan are thought to have 109 to 172 nuclear weapons of unknown yield.

<snip>

This magnitude of this cooling would bring about the coldest temperatures observed on the globe in over 1000 years (Figure 1). The growing season would shorten by 10-30 days over much of the globe, resulting in widespread crop failures. The effects would be similar to what happened after the greatest volcanic eruption in historic times, the 1815 Tambora eruption in Indonesia. This cooling from this eruption triggered the infamous Year Without a Summer in 1816 in the Northern Hemisphere, when killing frosts disrupted agriculture every month of the summer in New England, creating terrible hardship. Exceptionally cold and wet weather in Europe triggered widespread harvest failures, resulting in famine and economic collapse. However, the cooling effect of this eruption only lasted about a year. Cooling from a limited nuclear exchange would create two to three consecutive "Years Without a Summer", and over a decade of significantly reduced crop yields. The authors found that the smoke in the stratosphere cause a 20% reduction in Earth's protective ozone layer, with losses of 25-45% over the mid-latitudes where the majority of Earth's population lives, and 50-70% ozone loss at northern high latitude regions such as Scandinavia, Alaska, and northern Canada. A massive increase in ultraviolet radiation at the surface would result, capable of causing widespread and severe damage to plants and animals. Thus, even a limited nuclear exchange could trigger severe global climate change capable of causing economic chaos and widespread starvation.

Climate change and the Doomsday Clock
It is sobering to realize that the nuclear weapons used in the study represented only 0.3% of the world's total nuclear arsenal of 26,000 warheads. Fortunately, significant progress was made in the 1990s and 2000s to reduce the threat of nuclear war. If the 2002 Strategic Offensive Reductions Treaty (SORT) is fully implemented by the U.S. and Russia as planned, by 2012 the world's stockpile of nuclear weapons will be just 6% of the 70,000 warheads that existed at the peak of the cold war in 1986. However, the threat of a more limited regional nuclear war has increased in recent decades, since more countries have been joining the nuclear club--an average of one country every five years. The 2007 move by the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists to move the hands of their Doomsday Clock two minutes closer to midnight--the figurative end of civilization--helped call attention to this increased threat. In addition, they also mentioned climate change for the first time as part of the rationale for moving the clock closer to midnight. I believe that climate change does not pose an immediate threat to civilization--at least for the next 20 years or so--and there is still time to significantly reduce the threat of "doomsday" levels of climate change to civilization if strong action is taken in the next 20 years to cut carbon emissions. Thus, setting the hands of the clock closer to midnight because of climate change is probably premature. However, climate change triggered by a limited nuclear war is a whole different situation. The twin disasters of a limited nuclear war, coupled with the devastating global climate change it could wreak, should remind us that there is no such thing as a small scale nuclear war. Even a limited nuclear war is a huge threat to Earth's climate. Thus, there is no cause more important to work for than peace, so, this Easter weekend, I plan on making myself--and thus the world--more peaceful.

Jeff Masters

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Nope, not really
Sure there is an energy overlap, but when you talk about proliferation the subject is weapons and that makes it very much a foreign affairs topic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. It's still a nuclear energy issue - that's reality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. dude, get real
That's like saying gun rampages are a manufacturing issue because guns are made in factories.

I'm unsure why you care so much about having it in the E/E forum but I can see why the mods moved it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Nuclear proliferation is a major problem with nuclear energy
That's why we have the NPT and the IAEA, to reduce the risk of proliferation.
The reason for Bush's "nukes for mangoes" deal was because India ran out of uranium and refused to sign the NPT, the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) won't sell to any country which doesn't sign the NPT (well, until Bush arranged the "nukes for mangoes" deal, now there is one exception, India).

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. The reason I posted it in the E/E forum
is because that's where we discuss energy and environment issues.
Go read what physicist/Democratic congressman Rush Holt said,
I quoted him in my first reply to this thread:
"Nuclear proliferation is a problem that humankind has not solved. I don’t want to see us get deeper into a dependency on nuclear power until we demonstrate to each other that we can solve the problem of nuclear proliferation. Because if we don’t, that could be our greatest undoing."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Proliferation is also an environmental problem
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon May 06th 2024, 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC