Those complaining about having to buy health insurance.

[EV_Ares]

OK President Obama, fine, just send me and all other taxpayers a form saying:

I elect to purchase health care or I choose not to participate in health care and if I choose not to participate, I will not seek any governmental or taxpayer assistance for any health care problems. Also, advise this cannot be changed for 1 year if you elect not to have health insurance.

Send them another form in a year and see which way they choose.

[SocialistLez]

1. I don't get this post

I would rather have a single-payer system rather than having to pay an increase in taxes because of all these subsidies insurance companies will be getting, an increase in people on Medicaid, etc. and STILL have to meet a deductible, pay co-pays, etc.

I don't want health insurance, I want health care.

It's not just Tea Baggers that are upset about this bill.
I want single-payer, not this health insurance company bailout.

[Bitwit1234]

16. Tea bags are NOT upset about this bill

because of the lack of provisions that people like you want. Tea bags are upset that THIS PRESIDENT AND DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS would dare to pass any health care bill.

They don't want the poor of this country to benefit from anything. And they are mostly the ones who will. Tea bags would be upset at any bill, any type of bill at all that THIS PRESIDENT AND DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS would ever to dare pass.

[SocialistLez]

17. Uhm...I know that

I know they are upset for totally different reasons than progressives.

Trust me, I know this.

[SmileyRose]

141. I disagree with you

I believe the tea bags are upset because there is a black man in the White House.

[mdmc]

2. and then there are those

(like me) that are fully insured yet lack access to affordable medical treatment. We get the best of both worlds (get to pay for "for profit ""health"" insurance" yet cannot participate in health care)..

[Echo In Light]

138. Pretty sweet dealio, eh!?

ugh

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. That's Already Been Proposed

Plus there should be a caveat that states "should I show up in amergency room and am unable to provide proof that I can psy for services I will expect nothing but to be stabilized and sent home."

[EV_Ares]

7. right.

[brentspeak]

4. For-profit health insurance does not equal health care n/t

[SocialistLez]

15. +1

Coming from someone with health insurance and waits until they ABSOLUTELY can't take the pain, discomfort, etc. anymore to see a doctor.

$3,000 deductible and a $10,000 out of pocket limit.
Bleh.

[Uncle Joe]

20. + Infinity with a cherry on top. n/t

[Richard Steele]

63. Eggzactly. nm

[The Straight Story]

5. Send Obama a note that says "Single Payer, good enough in the rest of the world, why not here???"-nt

[beardown]

6. Great idea.

It works on a lot of rightee type complaints too I've found.

However, to be fair in this case, we should also start writing up a form that says:

Even if premiums continue to skyrocket and more and longer delays are created by the Health Insurance companies and other industry friendly type modifications are made that basically leave me in a position that after paying my premiums I cannot afford to pay the deductibles so I do not go to the doctor I will continue to buy health insurance.

Oh wait, nevermind. You'll already have to keep buying it.


Seriously, it's not a bad idea to remind people of the tradeoff. It's just that we don't know what kind of apple pie or crap pie that the bill will turn into after a couple of years of adjustments, but I'm betting that one of the last ones to go will be the mandatory buying part.

[Bluebear]

8. Your title says "buy health insurance" & your little pledge says "purchase health care".

They are not the same.

[EV_Ares]

11. OK, it is the insurance they are bitching about inthe health care bill.

Sorry was so hard to comprehend.

[Bluebear]

12. It was very hard to comprehend as this bill does not provide health care for all.

[EV_Ares]

14. Well, maybe in time there will be health care for all but you have to start

somewhere and we have now started. It was difficult enough to be able to get this.

[Uncle Joe]

23. The problem is, this HCR Law set in motion adverse dynamics; working against health care for all

that will only increase in strength with the passage of time.

The De Facto Mandate to purchase for profit "health" insurance without at least a strong national public option will send 30+ million captured customers to that most despised industry.

The people's premium dollars can only work against their own best interests, because a portion of those profits to that industry will in turn be used to bribe/lobby Congress or future political leaders against the idea of passing universal single payer coverage for every American or a strong national public option.

Some of those forced profits will also be used to speak against the peoples' best interests via advertising, commercials and general pundit propaganda through the corporate media.

As the population of the United States grows so will the pool of profits available to be used for those nefarious purposes as there are more captured customers, meanwhile the Congress will stay fixed at 535 members "insuring" a larger take for each Representative willing to sell out the people.

Edit for P.S. The recent Supreme Court decision; allowing unlimited corporate use of funds for issue advocacy during elections or any other time for that matter, will greatly magnify and speed up the intensity of this adverse dynamic.

[EV_Ares]

38. All good and logical points that could happen Uncle Joe. The only

thing which is unfortunate is they first had to get it done now. They have already said they plan on making this better asap. I agree with you but I also know they couldn't even get it past the dems let along 0 votes with the republicans so at least now we might be able to improve on it now that it is law. Not disagreeing with what you said.

[Uncle Joe]

69. How are they going to make the tough decisions and take the moral high ground;

bucking the for profit "health" insurance industry with a 59/41 margin in the Senate when they couldn't/wouldn't do it with a 60/40 split?

Had they passed at a minimum a strong national public option, their chances in November would be improved however by passing a law which is highly unpopular across the political spectrum albeit for different reasons, what foundation can they run on, "Vote for us we rewarded the villains!?"

It's not going to happen and with each election, they will fall farther behind particularly after the next Presidential Election when the mandates actually take effect.

The insurance corporations which have just gained more power will continue to raise their premiums, find loopholes in the law and make profit from the American Peoples' injury, illness and death.

I wish I could see an upside to this law; but I can't, it's a Trojan Horse.

[ScreamingMeemie]

112. Thank you Blue... but, of course, I'm just a bitch..er.

[LaydeeBug]

epic fail.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Please Elaborate

Thank you.

[LaydeeBug]

9. epic fail.

[EV_Ares]

13. Would answer if knew what you were talking about.

[Richard Steele]

62. That didn't stop you from starting this thread.

nm

[Bluebear]

73. .

:spray:

[Fumesucker]

18. How do we go about buying "health care"?

Seriously, this is a health *insurance* mandate, not a health care mandate.

You do know that the majority of people who go bankrupt due to health care bills are insured don't you?

[EV_Ares]

19. Yes, seriously, I do and besides if these people are bitching about having

to purchase health insurance from the health care bill, then fine, let them opt out and be on their own and they will pay for any emergency room care, doctor care prescriptions, whatever. Their choice.

[Bluebear]

21. 'bitching' - lol

[EV_Ares]

22. Thats right bluebear, "bitching".

[Bluebear]

31. I don't think you have one whit of what people are "bitching" about with the bill

Sorry, I just don't. You are using buzzwords and confusing terms.

[EV_Ares]

33. That is your opinion and i don't think you really care, you are just against

it for whatever reason. No buzzwords and no confusing terms.

Whatever.

[Bluebear]

35. OK, whatever. I think you must be mesmerized & we will let this go. Ciao.

[Fumesucker]

24. So you know that insurance won't save you from going bankrupt for medical care..

But that doesn't concern you?

[EV_Ares]

25. No, so you are saying if you have insurance, you can go bankrupt but

if you do not, you can't go bankrupt.

So, everyone should give up their insurance I guess.

Not sure I understand your logic and also it depends on what kind of insurance you have. Maybe most of them just had some basic or not very much insurance, just some ripoff policy. Who knows what form of so-called insurance they had. No reason for people not having health care.

[Fumesucker]

27. No, I'm saying that the fact that insurance does not protect you from bankruptcy

Due to medical bills does not concern you as long as it only happens to less than 50% of people..

[EV_Ares]

30. So still do not understand your arguement against health insurance. Who knows

what their financial situation was or what kind of so called policy they had. What about all of the people health insurance saved from going bankrupt. Hey, their are all kinds of situations and a lot of people had worthless polices they bought. Maybe now, the situation will be different on the kind of health insurance people can have.

[riderinthestorm]

34. Can you point me to the regulatory agencies that are going to ensure good health insurance policies?

In the new legislation?

You can say "maybe now" everything will be better, all you like, and then go on to condemn with a broad brush a whole swath of people as somehow purchasing "worthless policies" but it doesn't change the FACT that insurance companies regularly, routinely, even the "good" insurers like BCBS (who we have), deny payment for treatment.

My husband's stem cell treatment has been the treatment of choice for more than 20 years for lymphoma with a 95% success rate in putting it into remission for more than 5 years but BCBS still calls it's "experimental" which means.... yup, treatment payment denied.

A million buck treatment denied because a 20 year old procedure is still classified as "experimental".

[Fumesucker]

36. Going bankrupt in spite of insurance happened to my parents over forty years ago..

And then it happened to my ex wife and I about ten years ago and eventually ruined our marriage from the stress over money.

"Maybe" isn't good enough for me, I have family in the UK that don't have to worry about "maybe" so I know it can be done better.

[EV_Ares]

41. So, then tell me how they would have been able to get everything just

the exact way you wanted it through congress. You are so upset over what we have now which is not what we had a year ago.

You want the entire thing. How were they to persuade the republicans, the blue dogs?

You must have all of the answers. I would be interested.

[Fumesucker]

44. Clearly the powers that be wanted the private insurance mandate..

And equally clearly they did not want a public option..

We got exactly what the powers that be wanted and you're fine with it.

I'm not fine with it, that's the difference between you and I, you're happy to buy whatever pathetic dregs the powers that be deign to force you to and I'm not.

[EV_Ares]

46. Whatever, best answer you can give. Go with it.

[Fumesucker]

56. And you give no answer at all to someone who has seen two generations go under..

Thanks to private health insurance companies..

Now we get more of the same written by those same companies forced on us and you're expecting us to be happy happy joy joy about it.

[EV_Ares]

61. And again, you never gave an answer as to how Obama was to get all this

you say you want through the congress. A simple question. Also, what about all those who were unable to have any health insurance who will now have it, although it will not meet your standards, they will have health insurance where they had nothing before. Also, the fact that they got this through and will now work on many of the things all of us wanted. In other words, they did somehting instead of nothing.

[Fumesucker]

65. Your mistake is that you think Obama wanted more than what he got..

The result of the health care "negotiations" was preordained, I posted months and months ago here on DU that we would get private mandates and no public option.

Big money got what it wanted and that's the way it's going to stay now.

You can be happy about it, I'm not.

[EV_Ares]

75. That is simply your speculation and you are not the only one that posted something

like that. What is real is what matters and you appear selfish enough to forget about the thousands who now will have healthcare and their children will immediately get care with pre-existing conditions removed. Thats OK, just care and cry about yourself regardless how much has improved now for others. Also, you may get what you want which they can do now that this is law but yeah, you don't go for "maybe".

[Raineyb]

72. Well for starters he could have NOT taken single payer off the table

before they even started negotiations.

You can't make a serious argument that someone is interested in covering everybody when they take the only method that actually covers everyone off the table then starts negotiating down from a lesser position in the first place. Even four-year-olds know better than that.

[EV_Ares]

74. You are wrong as they already had done negotiations and I would think

by now you would no it would not have made it and they would have gone nowhere.

[Raineyb]

93. No they hadn't. And they took single payer off the table before they even had a hearing

your assertion is bullshit.

[riderinthestorm]

29. We have great health insurance but will hit our lifetime limit WHEN my husband's lympohoma returns

It's incurable.

He's already beat the odds by being in remission longer than most but sooner or later it's gonna come back. When that happens, he'll require a stem cell transplant and we'll be bankrupt if that happens before 2014.

We have some of the best insurance coverage in the world but you are awfully cavalier about the problems about this bill that are truly catastrophic for some of us.

At this point, it's probably smarter to stop paying the health insurance premium, bank those dollars ($1800/month) in a secure untraceable spot (like with family members) so we can afford to rebuild afterwards, and when his lymphoma recurs go bankrupt.

[EV_Ares]

32. Health insurance companies will be prohibited from levying annual limits and lifetime limits on cove

You talk about limits and you are against this bill.

New Health Care Bill: Changes Happening in 2010

Children age 26 and younger will be able to remain covered under their parents health insurance plans (this is increased from past age limits which were anywhere from age 22-25).
Medicare recipients will receive a $250 rebate to help in closing the “doughnut hole” (with the goal being to close the doughnut hole completely by 2020).
Health insurance companies will be banned from excluding coverage for pre-existing conditions for children.
Adults with pre-existing conditions will be eligible for coverage into high risk health insurance pools until future health care exchanges are up and running.
Health insurance companies will be prohibited from levying annual limits and lifetime limits on coverage.
All new health insurance plans must provide coverage for preventative services with no out of pocket cost (all health plans will be forced to comply by 2018).
Those companies that offer health benefits for early retirees ages 55 to 64 will receive assistance from a temporary reinsurance program.
All new health insurance plans will have to comply with new regulations that lay out an appeals process for when health insurance claims are denied.
Small businesses that employ less than 50 people are eligible for a tax credit equal to 35% of their health insurance premiums (this increases to 50% by 2014).

This is the 2010 changes, more will happen the following year and years.

[riderinthestorm]

37. See my other post. Not only do we have "lifetime caps" to worry about if the lymphoma comes back

this year, we also face treatment denial - a fact that's not covered in the new legislation.

[EV_Ares]

39. Right in front of you and you will still argue about it. As the post stated

in the beginning, I say if you don't like it, just stay away from it and stay with your insurance you have.

[riderinthestorm]

43. There's already an appeals process in place with BCBS for treatment denial

Do you think that really works?

Ha. I've sat in too many waiting rooms swapping stories with lymphoma patients, for a shitload of hours and become entirely too educated on this.

That's the whole point - "stay with insurance" we have means we are SOL with BCBS when the going really gets tough. We've paid a LOT of money every month for 30 years to get nothing when push comes to shove. This bill does nothing to really address this. Real enforcement mechanisms have been stripped out.

You seem to be misunderstanding that this HCR bill enshrines the insurance companies as the middle man, and that some of us find that hugely problematic. You appear to be absolutely okay with their extortion, and in fact, appear to be denigrating anyone who has (in your opinion and definition) deficient policies or no policies.

[EV_Ares]

50. Looks to me like you are the one misunderstanding. You have no

intention of doing nothing but complain about this bill so go at it. Hey the freepers will agree with you.

[riderinthestorm]

48. "No reason for people not having health care". You honestly can say that?

Sorry but you truly do NOT understand how people don't have access to HEALTH CARE or even health insurance (not that that helps much either) if you can make that statement so cavalierly.

[EV_Ares]

52. Wouldnt make you any difference, trying to do that here and you still

bitch about it.

[riderinthestorm]

54. Having health insurance does not equal having health care.

You have not shown anything that changes that statement. So yes, there are those of us that ARE concerned.

[riderinthestorm]

28. They're bankrupt either way. Only now the govt is requiring us to enrich ins cos first. nt

[EV_Ares]

42. No if you don't like it, stay with what you have.

[riderinthestorm]

45. "If you don't like it, stay with what you have"???!!! Say what?

I don't like it but there's no other option.

If we opt out of buying insurance at extortionate rates that won't cover treatment, by 2014, we're fined. And still bankrupt.

[EV_Ares]

47. If you say so. eom.

[riderinthestorm]

49. Uhm no, YOU said it. I'm just quoting you. nt

[EV_Ares]

53. Oh you already know the rates too & what it covers. Wow you are really up on this.

[riderinthestorm]

55. Yes, those of us with loved ones with serious illnesses ARE up on it. nt

[EV_Ares]

57. Pretty good since the companies and government are not in on it, you might want

to advise them.

[riderinthestorm]

59. Are you drunk? The insurance companies and this Admin ARE in on it.

This Admin's HCR deals with Big Pharma and Big HC providers are daily DU fodder. It's why we have such a skunk of a deal with Big Ins Co.

Mandatory payouts to big insurance companies that are already ripping us off for no benefit and now it's enshrined for decades to come.

Maybe you are just being sarcastic? (trying to be generous but assuming you have ripped off a 1000+ DUers id and looking to get them tombstoned.)

[EV_Ares]

60. Wow, what an answer, again, you say you know the costs and treatments

, so what are they? No more of the maybe, assume. some facts might suffice.

[EV_Ares]

80. You must be drunk since you are bitching about limits which have

been removed effective 2010. Read the bill and what takes place this year and the following years before you complain or try to talk about the bill.

[Betty]

84. you can have insurance and still end up paying for that stuff

out of pocket, or at least an uncomfortably large portion of it. Having insurance doesn't mean you don't have huge deductibles, take it from me in Massachusetts. We've already seen the future.

[sabrina 1]

113. This is a joke, right? You're pretending to be a rightwinger

who thinks that all those people 'bitching' about buying health care are just selfish, lazy liberals who have loads of money but won't go to a doctor because they want YOU to pay their for them? Did I get that right, no pun intended?

And that's why 44,000 of them chose to die each year, just so they keep all that money in the bank! :eyes:

[Obamanaut]

26. I think some of the complaining is about being compelled to buy

insurance from a private company.

Oh, and people are not buying health care, but rather health insurance.

[EV_Ares]

40. Thats right.

[grahamhgreen]

71. Insurance that will not pay if they deem you sickness too costly.

[TransitJohn]

51. For profit insurance does not equal health care.

Fail. Weak sauce

[Greyhound]

58. Whoosh!

[eridani]

64. FUCK THE GODDAM INSURANCE COMPANIES!!

Why can't I have Medicare instead of being forced to be a customer of mass murderers?

[ima_sinnic]

66. yes, we should be like unquestioning cows led off to slaughter

"trust us" (*wink wink*)--"health" insurance will make everything aok.

The corporate greedhead capitalist insurance pigs will suddenly be modest in their obsessive overpowering need for money, they will suddenly NOT look for excuses not to pay for things, they will suddenly put life, health, and humanity over profits, they will voluntarily, cheerfully, and most willingly accept reasonable compensation for their unnecessary "service" of being the middleman (read: racketeer) between people and their doctors.

if you think "health insurance" has anything to do with "health care," I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Your effort to make the two seem somehow the same is a joke and all too transparent. But thanks for playing, I needed a good laugh so early in the morning--unfortunately it's tragic. Don't worry, you'll get better with practice at distorting and confusing.

[JVS]

67. *plonk*

[superduperfarleft]

68. You really didn't think this through before posting, did you? n/t

[EV_Ares]

79. Yes, and evidently you and some others have not paid attention to

the bill very much. Just like the one bitching about limits which has been removed and effective 2010. Pre-existing conditions removed for children effective 2010, the donut hole closed for medicare receiptants 2010 and others and more in 11 and 12.

Looks like you did not think out your post very well.

Hey, have seen a lot of simlar posts from tea baggers and freepers though, so don't feel bad.

[dflprincess]

124. The Medicare "donut hole" will not be closed until 2020

in 2010 seniors will get another $250 in prescription covered and the that amount will increase annually until the "hole" is closed. But it will not close quickly enough to help many of the elderly it is currently hurting.

Apparently you haven't been paying a whole of attention to the insurance scam.

[superduperfarleft]

140. I didn't think my post out very well?

My post was one line. What's there to think about? I was referring to (1) the ridiculous premise in your OP (which has been pointed out to you repeatedly) (2) the snide comments you respond with when people point out your flawed logic and (3) you getting so angry that people didn't pat you on the back for your stupid OP that you can't even type a coherent sentence (perfect example: "the donut hole closed for medicare receiptants 2010 and others and more in 11 and 12." Um, what? Is that English?) You aren't looking to discuss, you're just looking for an argument.

I agree with the other person that asked if you were drunk, but what makes it particularly hilarious is the fact that your posting style has remained consistent two nights in a row. I mean, I like to knock back one or five on a Friday night, but Thursday night too?

[grahamhgreen]

70. Pathetic pandering to big insurance companies that kill children to make money.

[EV_Ares]

83. That is why the pre-existing condition for children no longer exists

for those who have been trying to get care for their children and takes effect in 2010.

[LetsgoWings13]

76. ive heard some people say that there is no penalty for not purchasing insurance.

does anyone know if this is true or if the mandate applies to all and has a fine for those who dont purchase it?

[Taitertots]

77. Well I can't afford the insurance

I have no intention of signing your form.

If Obama doesn't give me sufficient subsidies I'm simply not going to buy any. So they can try to extract whatever fine they want, because it is a fraction of what insurance costs.

I'm complaining because the Obama health insurance bailout is going to do nothing to help poor people, me specifically. It does nothing but exacerabate the inequality in access to medical treatment.

[EV_Ares]

82. Good just stay the same. You had it good before the bill, no need

to do anything different. Just let those who will benefit and want the benefits go for it.

[Taitertots]

86. Are you going to pay to keep the lights on in my house?

The only ones who are going to benefit are the insurance corporations.

We should just call this the "let them eat cake" bill. The solution to high insurance costs is to tell poor people to buy insurance.

I'll still be crippled in debt if I ever get sick. I'll still receive inferior treatment to wealthy people. Insurance costs will continue to skyrocket.

[EV_Ares]

88. Well, there are a lot of people who had been trying to get care for their

children who can now with the pre-existing conditions removed. Tell that to them. Did you ever think why the health insurance lobbists spent millions to try to defeat the bill. I doubt it and no not going to pay for your lights, not sure what that has to do with anything but you can get candles and batteries somewhere probably.

[Taitertots]

89. Care will remain prohibitively expensive

Lets say I did have children. I still won't have enough to pay for coverage without losing my house. If they actually need anything it will be prohibitively expensive.

It really is the "let them eat cake bill". Forcing poor people to buy insufficient coverage in a predatory market is not going to help anyone.

I can't overlook the obvious flaws for an insignificant gain.

[EV_Ares]

90. There is a lot more that happens in 2010 including the donut hole for

medicare receiptants and then even more in 11 and 12. Don't know what part of the bill you have read but do not see how you still cannot get healthcare from this bill with all that is available for those who can't afford it unless you just don't want to admit it. If you have it from your employer you don't have to do anything or if you already have it from another source you do not have to change and for those who do not have it they have it in the bill where they can afford it.

[EV_Ares]

91. There is a lot more that happens in 2010 including the donut hole for

medicare receiptants and then even more in 11 and 12. Don't know what part of the bill you have read but do not see how you still cannot get healthcare from this bill with all that is available for those who can't afford it unless you just don't want to admit it. If you have it from your employer you don't have to do anything or if you already have it from another source you do not have to change and for those who do not have it they have it in the bill where they can afford it.

[Fading Captain]

78. Yo. Why should taxpayers LINE THE POCKETS of private insurance?

I have no problem paying higher taxes for a truly social safety net.

[EV_Ares]

81. Yo, they shouldn't.

[ima_sinnic]

87. Yo, they will be

or did you think the insurance was free?

[EV_Ares]

92. No and you are wrong with what you are saying, Whatever you want

to say or belive.

[dflprincess]

125. There are people who will qualify to get subsidies for their premiums

These subsidies will be paid with tax money and they will go into the pockets of the for profit insurers. Taxpayers will be bailing out yet another corrupt industry.

Note, that these same people will not be getting subsidies to actually pay for health care, only for their "coverage".

[ima_sinnic]

126. oh, we WON'T be lining the pockets of the insurance co. fatcats?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

teh stupid, it burns

[Zenlitened]

85. The White House called. President Obama would like you to...

...stop "helping" him.

:eyes:

[EV_Ares]

94. He is doing OK and doesn't need any help but appears this site

has a lot of people that do. Many of them are reading the same material the tea baggers and freepers are.

[Feron]

95. You are ignorant.

Possessing health insurance is no guarantee of care. If you need anything more than a checkup, then you are lucky if the insurer doesn't jerk you around.

Perhaps you missed all of the health insurance horror stories in the news the past few months. When I injured my back, BCBS refused to pay. So I went without care because I didn't have a pile of money laying around. Funny me, I thought that insurance would take care of it. Once again: health insurance != health care.

An insurance company exists to make a profit. Claims that are likely to be expensive cut into that profit. So it behooves a health insurance company to look for reasons to deny claims or at least jerk the person around long enough in hopes that the person gives up or dies. This behavior will not stop with the new law.

Even worse taxpayer money will subsidize health insurance companies. There is no incentive to make insurance better and cheaper when citizens are required to purchase your product and the gov't pays you too.

If there were a public option and the insurers were stripped of their anti-trust exemption it would be one thing. Unfortunately we got the bill written by the insurance companies instead. See how Romneycare is failing? That's what will happen with this health bill.

But unfortunately the "solution" will likely be to prop up the failing system rather than introduce single payer or a robust public option.

[EV_Ares]

96. Looks to me like you are the ignorant one. Might check in the mirror before

attacking and your problems were all before the bill.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

97. It's kind of cute and touching when people have such faith in

the corporations and the laws they helped write.

[EV_Ares]

98. Yes it is, just like the teabaggers are so cute.

[EV_Ares]

99. Oh yeah is this why they spent millions to lobby against a bill they

would write:

Revealed: millions spent by lobby firms fighting Obama health reformsSix lobbyists for every member of Congress as healthcare industry heaps cash on politicians to water down legislation

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/01/lobbyists-millions-obama-healthcare-reform

[eridani]

100. The "watering down" part certainly worked n/t

[EV_Ares]

101. Thats right, between republicans and blue dog dems and their tea party supporters and

others, some things got changed. the health care industry sure wanted this bill didn't they to spend millions and millions to defeat it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

102. Na, they were just playing "Please don't throw me into that briar patch"

Their stock went UP when the bill passed. What they were lobbying to defeat was single-payer or a public option.

[EV_Ares]

103. They were lobbying against the bill, plain and simple and just because

their stock went up, has nothing to do with it. Check into the stock market on different companies and when stocks go up and when they go down, a little more complex than your analysis.

And as far as single pay, tell me how Obama was going to get the republicans and the blue dogs to go along with it.

Playing, yeah right, shareholders love to play with millions. Pretty wild.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

104. Yeah, the insurance companies are going to just HATE

1. Getting a captive market of 30 million new customers, with the government subsidizing whatever premiums they choose to charge

2. Having explicit permission to charge people over 50 three times the base premium

3. Having explicit permission to spend 20% of their take on non-medical costs

4. Still being allowed to create policies with high deductibles and high copays after the deductibles are met

:sarcasm:

It's all theater, Grasshopper. I remember politics back to the 1950s, and it's always been theater.

[EV_Ares]

105. OK, first who did you think was going to handle the customers and where

do you get over 50 three times the base premium along with explicit permission to spend 20% of their take as you say. Where is it written?

The new legislation will expand Medicaid eligibility and create so-called insurance exchanges where people will be able to buy insurance at subsidized premiums, provided they meet the income requirements. For a family of four, those are:
If your annual household income is $29,000 or below, you will qualify for Medicaid regardless of where you live. Medicaid coverage will be extended to families earning up to 130% of the poverty level: a significant improvement over the current situation, which varies dramatically across states, says Collins. Currently, for example, adults who don’t have children do not qualify for Medicaid–regardless of their income–in 35 states. (Where more generous than those established by the new legislation, state eligibility requirements will remain unchanged.)
If your annual household income is between $30,000 and $88,000, you will be able to purchase coverage through an insurance exchange, at subsidized premiums. The amount of the subsidy will be income-based, with those earning less getting higher subsidies, Collins says. (A family earning $55,000 a year, for example, would have premium expenses capped at 8% of income, while a family earning $33,000 would have a cap at 4%.)
Until the insurance exchange program goes into effect in 2014, anyone who has been uninsured for six months or longer because of a preexisting condition will be able to enroll in a national high-risk pool program.
Taxing High-Cost Employer-Sponsored Plans
If you have insurance through your employer, chances are you won’t be affected by the new legislation – unless your company’s insurance plan is deemed too expensive. Beginning in 2018, employers who pay more than $10,000 for individual coverage or $27,500 for a family will be charged a special tax. The idea is to discourage compnies from purchasing expensive health insurance, which in turn should ultimately prevent insurers from hiking their rates or offering expensive plans altogether, Collins says. (Most companies don’t pay that much. Currently, the average cost of a family policy in an employer-based plan is around $13,000.) These thresholds will be adjusted to factor higher premiums based on the average age or location of the insured group, Collins says. In fact, starting in 2014, insurers will be restricted from increasing premiums on the basis of age.

[sixstrings75]

108. "Customers", lol. What a shame. N/T

[Lydia Leftcoast]

109. I'm self-employed, over 50, and over the limit for subsidies in most years

Every source I've seen says that this bill will allow the insurance companies to screw me over in more ways than they do now.

[EV_Ares]

122. What sources have you seen?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

142. The actual explanations of the bill

1) That people over 50 can be charged three times what people under fifty are charged

2) That I will be able to afford only the "bronze" plans, which pay only 60& of medical costs, and will still have a high deductible before they do that

3) That I will have to pay a minimum of 8% of my income, which can be a real hardship when you've had a bad year and are catching up on back taxes and loans taken out to cover expenses

4) That in addition to paying premiums, part of my taxes will be going to PRIVATE, PROFIT-MAKING VULTURES in a blatant form of corporate welfare.

5) The whole damn bill is too complicated, and the ONLY reason it's too complicated is that Job One seems to be keeping the insurance companies profitable instead of providing access to medical care for EVERY (not just useless compulsory insurance for an extra 30 million) American.

And all your DLC and insurance company talking points won't change that.

Let me give you a REALITY CHECK from outside the Beltway, outside the "Progressive" Policy Institute. Of the people I've talked to, the ones who don't really know what the bill is about THINK they're getting European style universal health care. The ones who do know what the bill is about are at the very best disappointed and resigned: they know it's a shitty bill but they sign and say, with more hope than realism, "Well, it's a start."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

144. By the way, EV_Ares, I notice that your profile is disabled

Who exactly are you?

I'll tell you who I am. I'm a late fifties self-employed translator living in Minnesota.

Are you an insurance company PR flack? A DLC intern?

What are you that you are so passionate about defending this travesty of a bill and so intent on denying that it will hurt people?

I've told you what I've read from the bill. I've told you who I am.

Now I'm not playing anymore until you tell me:

1) Who you are and why you are so hell-bent on defending this piece of garbage

2) Which chapter and verse of the bill (exact quotes now) will reassure me that the things I've said above and that other people have said about age discrimination, inadequate coverage, and medical loss ratios are wrong.

[eridani]

106. Yes. If you represent an industry that is less popular than syphilis--

--overtly supporting a bill that you want passed is exactly the wrong thing to do.

[EV_Ares]

107. LOL, yeah, right, with that answer of yours, I rest my case.

[eridani]

110. What's funny about it? Overt insurance company approval would have killed HCR instantly

All their internal memos are gloating about how they won.

[speedcat]

134. BINGO

problem is so many of these cretins can't seem to grasp basic realities like this.

Sad.

[sabrina 1]

114. And they got what they paid for, right?

No Public Option! It was worth all those lobbyists. Look at the windfall Obama just handed them. I feel bad to even argue with you, because you keep arguing against your own argument. We KNOW they spent all that money and we KNOW they got what they paid for. What were you trying to say?

[EV_Ares]

130. I said what I said, I actually feel even worse for you because either you

don't read, haven't read the bill or what I actually think, just made up your mind and are going to say whatever regardless of what is truth. No need to go over it again and any normal person knows that companies do not fight something with millions and millions of their shareholders money to just look good. Also, not arguing against myself by any means, just you seem to have a lack of ability to understand or as I think have never read anything about the bill but just do your screaming about it on DU.

And tell me, how was Obama going to persuade the republicans and the blue dogs to give him everything you say you wanted.

[ScreamingMeemie]

111. Do you get that some of us can't afford the "high risk pool"? Do you get

that many of us will still not have either health insurance or health care? No. I don't think you do. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted this.

Thanks. I appreciate it greatly.

[EV_Ares]

116. Actually it is obvious that you don't get it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

118. No. I get it too well EV. I've been "getting it" for the past 10 months

with a preexisting condition and access to only a "high risk" state sponsored pool that I cannot afford, thanks to the wonderful folks over at BC/BS...but yeah...that's me bitching for ya. But go on with your bad self. It's amazingly obtuse.

[EV_Ares]

119. Well thanks to Obama, pre-existing conditions are being done away with.

You are talking about stuff prior to this bill.

[ScreamingMeemie]

120. Do you understand what temporary high risk pools are EV?

I don't think you do. I am 39. Under the current BC/BS high risk pool insurance for Texans, it's another mortgage payment and a half for me. I will still not be able to afford health insurance. There are quite a few of us out there. I was looking forward to this bill. I only wanted affordable insurance. That is not to be.

[EV_Ares]

121. You are talking about else.

The new legislation will expand Medicaid eligibility and create so-called insurance exchanges where people will be able to buy insurance at subsidized premiums, provided they meet the income requirements. For a family of four, those are:
If your annual household income is $29,000 or below, you will qualify for Medicaid regardless of where you live. Medicaid coverage will be extended to families earning up to 130% of the poverty level: a significant improvement over the current situation, which varies dramatically across states, says Collins. Currently, for example, adults who don’t have children do not qualify for Medicaid–regardless of their income–in 35 states. (Where more generous than those established by the new legislation, state eligibility requirements will remain unchanged.)
If your annual household income is between $30,000 and $88,000, you will be able to purchase coverage through an insurance exchange, at subsidized premiums. The amount of the subsidy will be income-based, with those earning less getting higher subsidies, Collins says. (A family earning $55,000 a year, for example, would have premium expenses capped at 8% of income, while a family earning $33,000 would have a cap at 4%.)
Until the insurance exchange program goes into effect in 2014, anyone who has been uninsured for six months or longer because of a preexisting condition will be able to enroll in a national high-risk pool program.
Taxing High-Cost Employer-Sponsored Plans
If you have insurance through your employer, chances are you won’t be affected by the new legislation – unless your company’s insurance plan is deemed too expensive. Beginning in 2018, employers who pay more than $10,000 for individual coverage or $27,500 for a family will be charged a special tax. The idea is to discourage compnies from purchasing expensive health insurance, which in turn should ultimately prevent insurers from hiking their rates or offering expensive plans altogether, Collins says. (Most companies don’t pay that much. Currently, the average cost of a family policy in an employer-based plan is around $13,000.) These thresholds will be adjusted to factor higher premiums based on the average age or location of the insured group, Collins says. In fact, starting in 2014, insurers will be restricted from increasing premiums on the basis of age.

[ScreamingMeemie]

123. My annual household income is above the limit. While it is "significant improvement" for

some, it is not going to help us all.
I have read the bill backwards and forwards. It hasn't changed the fact that I am still unable to afford the health insurance. Yay for those it does. But I will reserve my right to bitch. How long do you think one can last waiting 4 years with a heart condition? I opted to double my life insurance (term) for much less and create a will so that our son is cared for.

I swear this is like talking to a brick wall and just not worth it. I'll bitch on. You can use your ignore button.

[dflprincess]

127. You do understand that, just because a person with a preexisting condition is "covered"

they still may not be able to access care because the only policy the crooks will sell them is one with out of pocket expenses that are so high they still won't be able to afford to see their doctor?

[EV_Ares]

131. Maybe before the bill.

[dflprincess]

133. The bill allows large out of pockets

a single person's deductible can be $1,500 with a max out of pocket of $5,900. These limits will affect anyone who does not qualify for Medicaid (at 130% of the FPL that comes to anyone single person making more than $14,079). That's also assuming that the states will let a single person, who is not disabled, get Medicaid. Currently, most do not.

The max out of pocket does not include premiums - and only premiums are subsidized. The only expenses that count toward the max are those the insurance company deems are "covered" anything that is not, like vision & dental (or any test, procedure or medication the insurance company decides it won't pay for) will also have to be paid out of pocket.

Besides the insurance companies, the only other big winners with this bill will be the credit card companies as desperate people continue to pay their medical expenses with plastic.

The bill will increase the number of people who have "coverage" but only increase the number of underinsured. People will continue to go broke because of the medical bills and people will continue to die of preventable causes because they could not afford to get care.

You keep accusing others of not reading the bill, I would suggest you go back and read it as you don't seem to grasp just how badly we've been scammed.

[ScreamingMeemie]

145. Thank you, thank you, thank you...

I have read the bill and I see no change in my ability to purchase affordable health care. I can't believe so many people have fallen for what amounts to a Republican's wet dream.

[EV_Ares]

148. Seems you have more of an agenda then the republicans and tea baggers.

A republicans wet dream, you must be dreaming yourself. Them and the health care lobbists spending millions and millions to defeat this bill, death threats to those who supported it.

Yeah right, not sure what or whose agenda you are on.

[ScreamingMeemie]

151. My "agenda" is to try to stay alive for my son.

He already lost his father. That's my "agenda". This bill will not allow me to do that financially. Got it?

[EV_Ares]

154. Its apparant you do not understand it. Thats all now, OK, got it.

[EV_Ares]

149. Nothing you have set here fits other than your own imagination.

[EV_Ares]

150. And the best part is when you the republicans and tea baggers all have to

swallow what you have been saying when the people start getting the benefits in 2010. No need to talk to someone like yourself with evidently an agenda and who will refuse whatever truth and info is put in front of them. It is what it is and it is going benefit thousands. Deny all want, you can't deny the truth.

[dflprincess]

158. I and many of the other posters on this thread are not the ones denying the truth

You may think $5,900+ in out of pocket medical expenses is affordable but for most of us, it is not.

[sfpcjock]

115. I feel sure teabags aren't made about this...

about being "compelled" to buy insurance from fuckups. Reason is, there IS NO COMPULSION in the bill! I saw Keith Olbermann read the bill on his show a couple of weeks ago. There are NO penalties. Even congress people don't know this because they don't read the bill either.

[EV_Ares]

117. Right on, it is obvious that many here don't know, haven't read it and instead

just scream about something they don't even know about.

I like the poster who was bitching about limits and limits has been removed effective 2010. So was obvious they didn't read anything.

[ima_sinnic]

128. so people don't HAVE to buy insurance if they can't afford it, but they can't get medical care eithe

because they can't afford to pay cash.

wow, that is a really great "health care" bill!

[EV_Ares]

129. LOL, man, whatever you say.

[ima_sinnic]

135. it's not "whatever I say"--sheesh, please show how this is wrong

instead of cruising the thread and simply telling posters they are "wrong."

all the insurance co. welfare bill does is make it possible for anybody who wants to, to buy a worthless insurance policy, when before they might have not been allowed to.

wow, that is soooo fabulous.

your slavish devotion to the corporate greedheads I'm sure is most appreciated by them. who needs to advertise when they have such willing marks to do their grifting for them? I wonder why you're sooo in love with this bailout?

[EV_Ares]

137. And as you are simply saying I am wrong with no backup, only your speculations

and believing what you want to believe. You deny the truth and make guesses about what is to come and have no knowledge about wht is in the bill. I wonder myself why you and the tea baggers who say the same things you do are so upset about the people who will benefit from this bill. Those who had nothing before and are now going to have health care for the first time. Could it just be selfishness?

[sabrina 1]

132. Limits on the cost have NOT been removed. There are many

ways to not have to cover people with pre-conditions. There is no limit, eg, on the amount one of those Ins. Corps can charge the parents of a child with a pre-condition. Do you really think that they will not make the premiums so exorbitant that people won't be able to afford them? Then, what does a family who is above the line required to get subsidies do? If you think these are people who care if a child dies, you are wrong. They've already attempted to get around the issue, not two days after the bill passed.

When you make a deal with the devil, you don't win. These are the people who are the cause of the healthcare problems in this country. It is insane to keep them in business without even an option for people to not have to deal with them.

[EV_Ares]

136. So, you have all this info, show me where it is not true. I don't go by what

you want to believe and put out.

[Vinca]

139. I would love to be able to afford health insurance, but

as an older person with a pre-existing condition, I'm on the hook for tripled premiums. My best estimate is that it will cost me $200 over the last quote I got for an "affordable" state pool which I couldn't afford. One of the biggest problems with this bill is it penalizes the people who need care the most and doesn't offer an alternative, public option that might be more affordable. In addition, there are no price controls and providers can pretty much go their merry way charging $12 for Kleenex and $10 for an aspirin. Big insurance has that 85% of premiums must be used for care clause, but the weasels will be giving training sessions on a cruise ship with the topic "Working to Keep America Healthy" or some such baloney. I imagine they're having quite a few laughs as they fabricate loopholes in anticipation of the bill's enactment.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

143. What Vinca said

This bill will actually create HARDSHIP for people in her position.

Some help.

[EV_Ares]

146. So, what thousands are now saying they will have health care for the

first time, children can now stay on their parents policy until age 26, medicare receipants get the donut hole closed, parents who couldn't get care for their children because of pre-existing conditions now can, all this in 2010 and more in 2011 and 12.

Not counting all those who will have health insurance now.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

153. That could have happened without harming us middle-aged people

if Obama and the Congress had realized that they have the power to regulate the insurance companies, not the other way around.

[Bluebear]

159. +

[EV_Ares]

147. You are talking about things that have occurred even before any of this

has taken effect.

[Vinca]

155. And "reform" should have stopped it. It didn't.

I could be mistaken, but I think the kids with pre-existing conditions who will now be covered will also be screwed over at the 300% rate. If subsidies were based on the cost of the premium, that would be one thing, but they're based on a family's income. I'm happy as a clam for those who will be helped by this bill, but the real winners are the ones who will qualify for expanded Medicaid, not the suckers delivered up to big insurance.

[joeybee12]

152. Damn! Too late to unrec this...yet another illogical defense of

the mandate.

[frustrated_lefty]

156. I'm not happy with Health Insurance Reform

Single payer was the way to go. But, that's over and done. A lot of people were saying "pass the bill, we'll fix it later." Well, guess what. It passed. Now you have incentive to make the fixes you promised.

This isn't going away. I see two options.

One, you can gripe about your expenses, how unfair they are, poor you, like everyone else isn't in the same boat.

Or, two, you can work to make sure the health care provided is worth the expense.

A sane person would have pursued option 2 from the outset, but this is America we're talking about. I figure it's another 6-12 months before America works through the 5 stages of grief, and then we can actually do something productive.

[EV_Ares]

157. You are right in what you say. Not a perfect world, lots of imperfections and it is

up to us to try to change things for the better or can constantly complain .about something and leave it the same. There was no way to get health care change that would satisfy everyone and nobody is satisfied with it as it is but already there are plans to try and get it the way we wanted it. As it is, now thousands will have health care that did not before. You have to start somewhere and yes, everything these posters are saying could have been put in there. What do you think would have happened?