I want to start a discussion about the advisability of the whole invading Afghanistan thing.

[Gman2]

I have always thought that the initial invasion was vengeance, not national interest. I thought that a deal, giving Osama under Sharia law, was far superior than all alternatives. We could have had Osama delivered to Saudi officials, to stand the repercussions, etc. Why did we not do that? Bushes swagger. Had we followed MY tac, we would have driven that series of court trials, to far superior result, than the present foreseeable, impasse.

All told, I didnt expect to be this exonerated. Had we gone criminal route, from the start, we could have not paid all the afghan war costs, the Iraq occupation costs, and the entire earth freakout costs, etc, we would be worlds ahead. Our homeland would not be the target it is, and even more importantly, our allies wouldnt have targets on them. We have been isolated so effectively that it seems textbook. Our EU fellows shun us, our Asian friends seem cold. We had, if anyone remembers, the worlds empathy. That could have ridden to world organizing consensus. Instead, we have the lost decade plus. The trick to being an imperial power, is never use your power. E=ver, unless you are threatened. And you shouldnt be, unless you have no business calling yourself an imperial power. For those that doubt imperial intentions, google PNAC. Docile world power, was our genius, no more. The revolving circus of who is no longer an CIA assett, and is instead the number one public enemy of the public hate hour. We cannot afford to be forever burdened. I am calling for nicking the defense budget. By a third. We aint gonna rule the world. Get over it. Move on. To a better world, if we are lucky.

[RandomThoughts]

1. Because some people always make smaller and smaller circles

of those that are important. You can see how Bush's ideas of caring for friends, and other people not mattering expanded to suffering caused by war on both sides, and how other people in the world view the USA. If it suits the goals of his group, it is ok. That is also why people that try and make empathy smaller become more and more issolated till they fail.

While those that are always reaching out to other side, might get their hand slapped a few times, but grow the size of those that support what they support.


(just springboarding off of last empathy comment.)

[jody]

2. Understand but IMO the relevant question is "Why is Obama still in Afghanistan?" n/t

[Gman2]

3. Tar baby!

[zipplewrath]

4. Not alot of good answers

You presume many things. Predominately you presume that we would have ever captured Osama through various means. The Taliban was allowing Osama to use the international structure of government to engage in his activities. That really wasn't going to change.

However, trying to leverage the Northern Alliance was a serious mistake. Go in, get him and bring Osama back. Break up the structure of Al Queada in general, and if one can imagine a way, break up the Taliban as well. That was always the hard step. Maybe you can get the Saudis or something to act as an agent to move Afghanistan away from Taliban rule. But I'm dubious. I'm afraid that we would have had to just accept Taliban rule and take frequent action to enforce some sort of international standards of behavior.

[TexasObserver]

5. It's been a dumb war looking for a reason since day one.

It was a made-for-TV series.

Now it's eight years into the show, all the plot lines have run out, and none of them really make any sense any more.

Same as for "24".

[Gman2]

6. But nearly 80% voted to invade. Not even a rational persons reservation.

If you had red blood, and you were american, you were for killin' us some Taliban. They told us they blew up Buddha. We MUST exert our authority. the PNAC insisted. Never mind the Saudi agreement to prosecute, under Sharia law. I would have jumped on that like lightning. Let them take the heat. The threats, the violence. They offered. But Bush needed to look like he was tough. FUCK ALL OF IT. I say it all was un necessary. All of it.

[notesdev]

7. We fell victim to one of the classic blunders

The most famous is "never get involved in a land war in Asia"

as for the second...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfWDilXZQEo

[Gman2]

8. I love that guy. And yes, he is liberal