A scenario/question, regarding empathy vs selfishness

[Ardent15]

Imagine a scenario in which there are three people, one who is wealthy, one is middle-class, and one who is poor.

Now, for the middle-class person, which is more natural....to aspire to be like the rich person, or to identify and feel empathy with the poor person? And of those people, which one is more likely to have power in our society?

[Oregone]

1. What is sorta funny, is that "wealthy" person is probably 100X richer than the "middle" person

And the "middle" person is just 3-4X as well off as the poor person. So everyone except the dude on top is swimming around at the bottom of the barrel.

[treestar]

2. Empathy with the poor person

A middle class person has some idea he/she could be poor - there is some fear there. That's why they are for social programs - though that statement could be a bit of a broad brush.

Aspiring to be rich - most look around at friends and family and have to conclude the odds are quite low that they'll one day be like the Rockefellers.

[Fleshdancer]

3. Both...

I think it's natural for a middle-class person to aspire to be rich while also feeling empathy for the poor. As for having power in our society, I don't think aspiring or empathizing anything or anyone will get you that power. That comes through action whether it be positive or negative.

[Ardent15]

4. "while also feeling empathy for the poor."

So you want it both ways?

[Fleshdancer]

5. Interesting question to ask me. Do you assume I'm middle class?

I don't recall stating where I fit in with this scenario.

[noamnety]

6. FWIW I didn't read any assumptions into his post.

His hypothetical was about who middle class people - in general - would identify with and feel empathy with, and I read the followup the same.

[Fleshdancer]

7. Fair enough. The "so you" part is what tripped me up I suppose. n/t

[Fleshdancer]

8. I think it's possible for many people to both aspire and empathize two totally different scenerios

I don't think it's an either/or thing.

[RandomThoughts]

9. What is power? What is empathy?

Most of power is getting people to think you have power so they will do what you say. Many times that is through money, but alot of it is through perceived future power. Which can creating bubbles and crashes. Very few people actually do things by themselves, but they can get people to move on a topic that is important by building empathy for that group. And by showing that there are paths that can create better situations.

But as far as empathy goes, the greedy selfish people actually do have empathy, they just have smaller empathy circles. Very few people have no empathy, most have different degrees.

The easiest way to think of it is a graph


This is the empathy circle of someone that is greedy, most of their thought and caring goes to self or a small group around them.

0
00
000
0000
000000
000000000000
0000000000000000
Self family friends sufferingpeople enemies


This would be the empathy circles of person like Mother Teresa.



----0000000000000000000000000000000
--0000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000
Self family friends sufferingpeople enemies

Not only does she have more empathy, but it is dispersed to a bigger circle of people.

You will notice most commercials that try to get people to help others try to create first self identification, then empathy, that is to increase a persons empathy circle. At the same time groups that try to demonize opponents, and have 'us or them', type thoughts do those things to shrink empathy distribution for people in their group to feel about people on the outside. Most of the hate radio is to help people shrink empathy circles.

Those same graph concepts fit for liberals and conservatives. Conservatives have empathy, but mostly for friends, while liberals will spread some of that empathy further out in social causes and civil justice ideas.


Watching the Enrond show on CNBC, they talk about a guy called Pie, he was one of the CEOs that created money from nothing. But he still married his stripper girlfriend pregnant with his child when he left. He had some empathy. Maybe like this.
0
00
000
0000
0000
00000
00000
000000
0000000
00000000
Self family friends sufferingpeople enemies

But he still had ability to feel for some other people.

Also the Enrond CEO and Bush family were close, and Bush family has empathy, but for a much smaller group, you can hear it in many comments they make about their family, or there friends.

That is the thing about empathy, it actually exist for almost everyone, just some people have smaller distribution circles, since most people have a limited amount of empathy they can feel, since each time you feel empathy, you also feel the pull to distribute your resources, and you feel the pain of someone else. So many people try to shrink there empathy circle with mental tricks played on themselves like cognitive dissonance. The people that need to hate the democrats and do not know why, are using the guardian of resource and empathy distribution, to stop themselves from feeling how others are suffering, to keep their resources closer to people already in their empathy circle. That guardian is usually irrational, and uses hate and anger to keep people from feeling, and in doing that it shrinks their empathy circle.




So in society we see that increasing identification with groups, and getting people to care helps society, since once empathy is established, people can actually feel good by helping people they empathise with, because the good feeling of the helped they actually feel. In the same way that you feel someones pain, you feel their joy. Celebrate with those in joy, and have sorrow for those in sorrow, it is an old concept.

When I support a person, I actually start to feel what I 'feel' they might feel and in that I strive to help them. I actually care a great deal about the person themselves, then from that you can reach out with what ever resources you have to help them. Then when they have a good thing happen, if that connection is solid enough, you actual feel their victory. Since there good feeling makes you feel good.

I find all of that really interesting, and it allows for much joy in life by helping people, even if you yourself still make lots of mistakes. If you can not change the world by yourself, find someone that wants to, and care about the people they care about, and care about them, suddenly that team seems to move forward, and the victories feel pretty good. But in the same way, there is always more to do as your empathy circles expand.


There is an argument for limiting empathy circles. Although empathy and feeling the pain of another can lead you to fight for someone, and empathy for your opponent can keep you from going darkside when fighting. There are times when their is empathy for people outside of your resources ability to help, and that adds suffering as you feel there pain, without being able to help them. So many people limit empathy for that reason, and that makes sense only if you do not think you can make a difference, hence why despair and hopelessness goes with empathy suppression. If you want to help people, and you feel you can not, then that empathy can be tough, but that feeling can also make a way happen in some way. So there is something to empathy management, where you pick your battles, but always make sure you are trying to move forward for someone or some social good.

it is all really interesting.


Note that when I say greedy, that greedy can be from a poor person or a rich person. It is not about their success, but how and why they want success.

Some other things can be added, notice how some people that seem to have little empathy have a great deal of victimization. They are always talking about me, I, myself. They feel their own pain real strong, because that is where all there feeling is, a type of self empathy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. An answer, making analogy of the equally false choice between noise and color.

It is natural and common to aspire to be rich while simultaneously identifying and advocating for the poor. In fact, it's possible to BE rich and supportive of the interests of the poor, witness Warren Buffett.

Aspiration and empathy are not on the same continuum.