Dead at 46 because he couldn't afford medical treatment

[tblue37]

Another person, apparently a very decent man who went out of his way to offer homeless people a chance to work for him whenever he had a job, has died because he didn’t have money so he declined a trip to the emergency room when he really needed to be checked out:

A 46-year-old self-employed carpenter in our town died because of head injuries he suffered in a fight with a 36-year-old homeless man he had given a job to and had allowed to stay in his house for a while. The police knew who was responsible for the death because the man was able to tell them the name of his attacker when they responded to a call to his house after the fight.

Police don’t yet know the reason for the fight.

But here’s the kicker: the man would probably still be alive, except that he had no health insurance and couldn’t afford medical treatment, so when they offered to take him to the emergency room, he declined treatment.

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2010/mar/31/lawrence-police-investigating-death-north-memorial/

Officers were called to the 800 block of Maine to investigate that incident on Sunday night and Fleming, at that time, declined medical treatment. He did, however, tell police the name of the man who attacked him.
When police were asked to check on Fleming on Tuesday, after he hadn’t shown up for work, officers found him dead inside his home. An autopsy performed Wednesday showed Fleming died of a head injury.
Moore said the fact that Fleming did not have health insurance might have kept him from seeking treatment for his injuries.“ He probably didn’t have the money to pay for an emergency room bill,” Moore said. “That’s probably why he didn’t go, and he probably didn’t realize how serious his injuries were.” {emphasis added)

[mdmc]

1. I have health insurance and cant afford medical treatment

The man would be alive if he had access to affordable medical treatment.

The truth is only access to affordable medical treatment could have saved this mans life. Health insurance would have saved this mans life, but also put him into bankruptcy.

[BailoutBill]

8. Excellent point

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[Tom Rinaldo]

10. I can afford limited medical treatment BECAUSE I don't have health insurance

When I was still trying to pay the unaffordable premiums I was so broke that I was less able to afford medical care then than I am now uninsured. There was no way for me to pay a penny toward deductibles after paying a monthly insurance premium. I can pay out of pocket for a visit to a clinic, some meds and some testing for a fraction of what my monthly premium was.

[eridani]

32. Bingo. A good demonstration of the utter worthlessness of "high risk pools." n/t

[Obamanaut]

15. Not having access and refusing treatment are not the same thing. nt

[mdmc]

21. Perhaps the refusal would have happened even w. insurance?

Seems like the dude was worried about cost or going bankrupt.. Insurance don't stop those things..

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[shedevil69taz]

41. Even with the "health insurance reform"

you'll probably still be in the same boat.

Required infact to have health insurance but unable to afford to use it.

Good thing we got that reform thing going though we'll just hope we can sneak an affordable option in there somewhere down the line.

[TheDebbieDee]

2. People with head injuries should not be allowed to decide

whether or not they should go to the ER. The head injury itself makes it impossible for the person to accurately determine the extent of the injuries.

Police and other first responders need to be reminded of the fact that the judgment of a person with a head wound is impaired because of the head wound!

[demodonkey]

18. OK, but then whoever decides to take me in can pay my bill.

I have no insurance plus I have been fighting constantly to get coverage for a family member who DOES have insurance. It has been hell. I DO NOT want any more hassles with medical bills. I honestly would rather be dead.

Maybe those of us who feel this way should carry a card or something to this effect?

Otherwise, whoever takes me in to the ER can pay my bills.

[Obamanaut]

25. What you said is good, and have donor registration be automatic

with the card

"...Maybe those of us who feel this way should carry a card or something to this effect..."

[demodonkey]

49. Sure, provided whoever gets the organs gets them put in absolutely FREE.

Geesh, I am all for organ donation (even though I could never afford to have a transplant, hell I can't even go to a doctor's office let alone a transplant operating room) but why in heaven's name do you have to tie these two things together?

Makes no sense, other than that there is something both self-righteous and mean-spirited about your post that I can't exactly put my finger on.

It is not exactly fun to be in a position where one sincerely thinks death might be preferable to continued dealing with being hounded for medical bills day in and day out for years. I pray that you are never there.

[Obamanaut]

51. Your earlier post sounded like some people would prefer to die rather

than be taken in for repair if it may cost them something.

There are those who would appreciate the organs that those people don't value. Some have insurance, others may not but would take them anyway and spend years paying for them.

Why waste them?

[demodonkey]

55. WTF?? Excuse me??

I was going to answer you, but your callous, clueless, and plain mean attitude doesn't deserve further answer.

Hopefully you never have to make the terrible choices some people on and off this board have had to make regarding getting and paying for healthcare, but if you ever do maybe -- just maybe -- you will learn something.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. I had a friend here who died a month ago because he didn't have health insurance

Hope this is a trend that will be ending soon.

[Obamanaut]

4. Perpaps had he not gotten into a fight, which necessitated in the

declined trip to the ER, this would be a non-story.

When comes to fighting, discretion is the better part of valor.

[madokie]

6. What a stupid thing to say

the story clearly says he was attacked

[Obamanaut]

14. From the article at the link in the OP, one reads:

"...Fleming had been injured in a fight on Sunday, police said, but refused medical treatment for his injuries. Police said Fleming had identified the suspect before he died...."

Don't fight, and head injuries are less likely (practically nonexistant)

If a fight seems imminent, vacate yourself from the area - with dignity if possible.

A head injury? Go to the ER. Refuse treatment for said head injury - a stupid thing to do.

Discretion remains the better part of valor.

[wolfgangmo]

31. re: "Refuse treatment for said head injury - a stupid thing to do."

Someone with a head injury is assumed to be of suspected impaired capacity. Still, without a medical diagnosis and order to hold, first responders cannot force compliance.

Your argument, if I may sum up is that the injured are stupid and entirely to blame for becoming injured.

[Obamanaut]

37. Sum it up any way that pleases you. Get in fight, get hurt, refuse treatment, die.

The sequence could have been stopped anywhere.

Walk away from fight, thus not getting hurt. That didn't work, so accept treatment. That didn't work - too late now.

[CreekDog]

17. Certain posters are to be thought of as a test of wits

because there is no reasoning with someone who talks like that.

[boobooday]

7. Notice the nature of the fight

He was attacked in his own home by someone he was apparently trying to help.

[cali]

11. wtf?

[cali]

12. I have a great deal of sympathy, but if you receive a head injury, go to the damned

ER. Bills you can't pay are better than dying.

[demodonkey]

20. There are fates worse than death.

Perhaps you have never been subjected to being hounded constantly for medical bills, or worse yet for bills that should be covered by insurance and are not paid.

[yodoobo]

26. I dunno about that

Ive spent a good chunk of my life being hounded by creditors and collection agencies.

dodging phone calls from collection agencies is not pleasant, but I don't think being dead would be a good tradeoff.

[demodonkey]

48. To each his own... And on edit,

How do you know death isn't preferable to being hounded constantly for medical bills until you've "been there"? (BOTH situations)

;-)

[glowing]

53. I disagree... I would pick death over harming my family of a future... Esp children of

a college experience. And death is just a continued process to me.. some its not.. but each to their own. Perhaps, with enough of these stories that continue even with the so-called reform, we will actually get real reform.

[Arugula Latte]

16. Oh, gee, why didn't he think of that?

Wow, it's all so clear now. What a chump!





:sarcasm:

[wolfgangmo]

30. Republican talking point #61

"Perpaps had he not gotten into a fight,..."

Translation: The victim is to blame. Don't you know anything, you moran?

[tblue37]

39. Who knows how the fight happened? He was helping out a

homeless person. Perhaps the homeless person had some issues, as is sometimes the case, and decided to attack the man without provocation. We don't know that the dead man had anything to do with starting the fight. He might just have been defending hismelf.

[fascisthunter]

42. yes, blame a victim of an attack

and if he dies who cares, right? After all, he deserves to die for blah, blah, blah... sociopaths usually look for the same angle, because it justifies their inability to feel empathy on issues such as this.

[KamaAina]

45. Blame the victim

that's right up there with "rape victims probably asked for it". :grr:

[Obamanaut]

46. Actually, this individual was offered medical care and refused. Not the

same as "...probably asked for it...."

[boobooday]

5. He was just being a consumer in the free market

Making financially responsible decisions about his own healthcare, instead of allowing government to ram it down his throat and save his life.

Damnit.

[wolfgangmo]

34. +1

Wonderful response.

[spinbaby]

9. I know two people who delayed treatment for chest pain

Again, because of insurance. One lived.

[seaglass]

13. Your headline title has no connection to your link. Did they change the

link/story or is there made up stuff in your post/headline?

[tblue37]

40. New link:

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2010/apr/01/suspect-manslaughter-case-likely-appear-court-frid/

Yeah--the stuff on the site was apaprently changed from my original link.

[kctim]

19. He died because he

did not seek medical attention, not because he couldn't afford it. The ER would have treated him whether he could afford it or not.

[immoderate]

23. Oh? And WHY was it that he refused medical treatment?

If this was France or Canada, would he have refused?

--imm

[kctim]

27. Sounds like

he refused medical treatment because he thought he couldn't "afford" it and didn't want to pay for it, despite the fact that he would have been treated even though he could not afford it.
He was NOT denied health care because he could not afford it.

[Gormy Cuss]

28. It sounds like he refused treatment because he had no money to pay for it.

As the previous poster asked, would someone have hesitated to seek treatment in France or Canada? I'll bet not.

Although an ER would have provided the minimal amount of care necessary to stabilize him it's not at all a given to suggest that he could afford the treatment or any necessary follow up care, so splitting hairs on the matter isn't relevant. One way or the other his lack of finances were directly linked to the reason he didn't seek care --- something unlikely to happen in France, Canada, England or even in a poor country like Cuba.

[kctim]

43. France or Canada

have no bearing on what I said, he did not live there. He died because he refused treatment, not because he could not afford it. He did not show up at the ER and then leave because he was denied treatment when he told them he could not afford treatment. That is not splitting hairs, that is fact.

I guess one could say that he died because he wrongly thought he had to pay in order to receive treatment, but that would mean he died because somebody lied to him or he just misunderstood how it works, not that he was denied treatment because he couldn't afford it.

No matter how you spin it, his lack of finances did NOT prevent him from GETTING care. He did NOT die because he could NOT get care. He died because "he didn't seek care."

[The Midway Rebel]

44. And, he didn't seek care because he thought he couldn't afford it.

Chicken, meeet egg.

[Gormy Cuss]

47. You've apparently never heard of patient dumping, or of hospitals referring cases to other hospitals

when no insurance card can be produced. This is EXACTLY why France, Canada, et cetera are relevant.
Why didn't he seek care? Prior experience with how it plays out when you don't have medical insurance?

[glowing]

54. Exactly, he did not live in a civilized country that treats healthcare as a right.

He died because he lives in America and didn't have the money to utilize help from the ER... so, he gambled and lost his life. America doesn't care about its citizens.. "too small to matter" ...I'm stealing it from another thread because it applies.

[immoderate]

38. Yeah, I got that much.

Sounds to me like he took a chance that he was OK, because going to the ER would incur bills that he couldn't pay. If he was living in a civilized country, he would have received treatment. He is dead because of out health care system. I have no doubt of that.

--imm

[mdmc]

24. he died cause he didn't want to go bankrupt for treatment

pretty much.. doesn't matter if he was insured or not.. insurance does not stop bankruptcy

[The Midway Rebel]

33. +1

He owned his own construction company and hired a homeless person for labor. That person attacked him causing a head injury. Fearing the cost, regardless of insurance, he declined treatment at an ER and later died in his home. Sounds very plausible, possible and unfortuntately very typical of poor working class folks living in fear of the cost of ANY medical treatment.

The "coulda, should've, woulda'" crowd on this thread can shove off.

[wolfgangmo]

36. +1

"The "coulda, should've, woulda'" crowd on this thread can shove off."

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[greencharlie]

50. BTW...

the collection agencies for the hospitals will set up a payment plan of like $25 per month... they just want to get some kind of a commitment.

Insurance or not... if anyone EVER needs to see a doctor, GO NOW!!!!

[The Midway Rebel]

52. FYI

Hospitals are NOT always willing to work with you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7987320

Most Americans are one good ER visit away from the poor house...if you ain't already in one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7994725

There ought to be laws against this kind of stuff.

[area51]

56. America ...

Where we have unlimited $$$$ for wars, but paying for health care -- not health insurance -- for Americans is a "budget-buster" and not worth it, according to the nazi party.